Start here:

http://www.petzl.com/...sisted-braking#video

It takes some practice to get it right. I find it's more important where the rope pile is flaked, relative to my right hand, when I use a Grigri than when I use an atc. If the rope isn't positioned to feed directly into my brake hand it often creates a lot of drag and makes it difficult to feed slack. When used right it works very well.

Are you talking about a Grigri 2? I never had the problem you described with the original Grigri, but I have noticed it with the Grigri 2 (I'm still not sure whether I like this device or not).

Jay

I had searched here, not YouTube, and read a lot of negative about Grigris. Good to know somebody does like them for lead. Your encouragements and advice are encouraging, thanks.

There were three of us today, one who wanted to practice Sport lead. We hung top-rope for regular belay, and he did clip a rope on mock lead, with me practicing lead belay. The recommended method of cupping the brake strand while thumbing down the release arm felt very clumsy, with the rope snagging in the brake hand when curled as in the diagram.

I'm tempted to just thumb down the release arm when pulling clipping slack, and let the rope run through the brake hand. The rope is still there in easy grasp.

I think that the climber hand needs to be the conscious one

, and that reversal worries me, especially for using a tube device instead, which I may refuse to do at least for a while. I do not have a good habit for pinching a rope to slide a hand, and am confused about that now.

I did do TR belay too, and switched back to those habits with no problem, which was a great relief for me. That's because I did develop habits. I hope that can happen with lead belay too; but it feels very complicated in comparison.

And I have a new question: what about commands from the leader? The climber wanted to concentrate only on what he was doing, without bothering to talk about it. There were places when I could not see his hands to know what to do. And he missed a clip, so if I had taken in on belay, he would have lost his slack and could have been thrown off balance by pulling up as if he had some.

If I was responding to his commands, that sort of error would not happen. I thought we were told that most accidents are the result of poor communication, which means commands, doesn't it?

I see girlfriends put on lead belay first time out. I wouldn't do it without another true belay, and neither would the climber today with an inexperienced lead belayer. I did a mock lead too, only clipping the 'draws so he could only clip the rope, and man, lead is another realm of climbing imo. You can get hurt doing that!

.

There were three of us today, one who wanted to practice Sport lead. We hung top-rope for regular belay, and he did clip a rope on mock lead, with me practicing lead belay. The recommended method of cupping the brake strand while thumbing down the release arm felt very clumsy, with the rope snagging in the brake hand when curled as in the diagram.

I'm tempted to just thumb down the release arm when pulling clipping slack, and let the rope run through the brake hand. The rope is still there in easy grasp. I think that the climber hand needs to be the conscious one, and that reversal worries me, especially for using a tube device instead, which I may refuse to do at least for a while. I do not have a good habit for pinching a rope to slide a hand, and am confused about that now.

And I have a new question: what about commands from the leader? The climber wanted to concentrate only on what he was doing, without bothering to talk about it. There were places when I could not see his hands to know what to do. And he missed a clip, so if I had taken in on belay, he would have lost his slack and could have been thrown off balance by pulling up as if he had some. If I was responding to his commands, that sort of error would not happen. I thought we were told that most accidents are the result of poor communication, which means commands, doesn't it?

Clipping commands are not necessary for an adequately trained climbing team.

I disagree. If you're out of the belayer's sight, it is often good to call out the clip. Also, I almost always call out the clip when I'm climbing a route that already has the draws up. When you hang the draw yourself it signals the upcoming clip to the belayer. But when the draw is already up, the belayer doesn't get such a cue, and it is often difficult for the belayer to see you reach for your rope.

Jay

I've never been a fan of someone belaying me with a grirgi while I'm leading. I think it imparts a very static belay, which causes, among other things, a very hard fall. It also puts additional strain on the top piece of gear. It also encourages bad belaying practices. Okay, I'll stop now.

I'm not doing anythign wrong. i don't use one. However, there is no disputing the fact that grigris do not let near the amount of rope slide through the device as a plate or tube. The only dynamics in a grirgi belay are the movement of the belayer.

Aid climbing is a different scenario. I don't mind my belayer using a grigri when I am on a 2 or 3 hour lead

...As Bearbreeder says, that´s RC.com and the internet in general. Those that have some crusading message post about how Grigris are the work of Satan. Those who actually use them no interest in whether anyone else does so just don´t post but the sheer number of people out there with one tells a different story...

...Most of my falls have been caught using a grigri and they were as soft as the belayer made it. I've also had hard falls caught with an ATC by some traddie that didn't know how to give a dynamic belay.

Do you really think a little slip through your belay device makes a difference?
It's fine if you don't like using them, but if you're trying to say it's safer to use a tube/plate than a grigri [due] to static loads and harder falls then yer doing it wrong.

Another lead belay today, but I was mostly photoing the climber so did not get many of the belayer. He was using the second method of gripping the cam arm for slack to clip: the brake hand thumb over the top, but only two fingers under. He did not keep his climber hand high, that I noticed, and did the pinch to slide at the device. His feed motions seemed to be very short, as recommended.

Fair enough dude. I'm just saying that I don't like people belaying me on lead with a grigri. Just not the right tool I think. Why opt for the heavy, expensive tool when can get the same or better result with a les expensive, lighter option? Just my opinion, not fact

Fair enough dude. I'm just saying that I don't like people belaying me on lead with a grigri. Just not the right tool I think. Why opt for the heavy, expensive tool when can get the same or better result with a les expensive, lighter option? Just my opinion, not fact

There is a reason just about every "pro" climber uses a grigri, and its not the fact that they get it for free.

Its the only way to fly if you ask me.
(unless on bad gear)

I'm not doing anythign wrong. i don't use one. However, there is no disputing the fact that grigris do not let near the amount of rope slide through the device as a plate or tube. The only dynamics in a grirgi belay are the movement of the belayer.

Aid climbing is a different scenario. I don't mind my belayer using a grigri when I am on a 2 or 3 hour lead

Name one climber who is getting paid a salary for climbing stuff on their own?

Umm..Ross? What exactly is a pro climber? Is that anything like a pro basketball player? How about a pro football player? Do pro climbers get multi year contracts for hundreds of thousands of dollars? There is no such thing as a pro climber. The best that a climber can do is get their gear for free, and possibly get their trips paid for. Name one climber who is getting paid a salary for climbing stuff on their own?

I don't know of many top level climbers who are hauling up a grigris on big alpine routes. Colin Haley? Ueli Steck? Freddie Wilkinson? Rolando? Has anyone seen these guys on a big face with a grigri? I'd love to see the pictures. Hell I would doubt the Giri Giri boys even use one...and if anyone would it would be them!!

Squeezing down the cam arm is necessary to give slack fast for the climber to pull up rope to clip. What the Petzl video calls the "classic" method squeezes with all the fingers wrapped around to the top, with the thumb under to make a full grip. That was shown in the first set of photos. In the second set, the belayer did keep the brake rope in his fingers, as advised. Two fingers under is not much to release, and there has to be something to squeeze against. The video shows just the thumb pressing down the arm, but pressing against what support? While practicing, pulling up the climber rope will locate and stabilize the device in the carabiner, to be pushing down with the thumb; but in use, that doesn't work for me. I found that the index finger can hook under the lip on the brake side. That works well when I'm practicing the motion; but during a climb, the device is flopping around and I can't aim that well. Today, belaying a Trad lead, I was gripping any way that happened.

...

There is no such thing as a pro climber.

Umm..Ross? What exactly is a pro climber?

Do pro climbers get multi year contracts for hundreds of thousands of dollars?

There is no such thing as a pro climber. The best that a climber can do is get their gear for free, and possibly get their trips paid for.

I admit I don't know who the woman is, but Alex Honnold receives a salary to climb? From who?

What is the reason? If I never learn how to use a grigri, will I be somehow deficient in my climbing skillset? Honestly wondering, because I currently just have a BD ATC-guide device, which I have been using for everything, including the gym.

so does anyone know how much more force will be put on the top piece when the belayer is using a grigri vs when they are using an ATC? I tried searching but all I got was a bunch of petty arguments.

Umm..Ross? What exactly is a pro climber? Is that anything like a pro basketball player? How about a pro football player? Do pro climbers get multi year contracts for hundreds of thousands of dollars? There is no such thing as a pro climber. The best that a climber can do is get their gear for free, and possibly get their trips paid for. Name one climber who is getting paid a salary for climbing stuff on their own?

I don't know of many top level climbers who are hauling up a grigris on big alpine routes. Colin Haley? Ueli Steck? Freddie Wilkinson? Rolando? Has anyone seen these guys on a big face with a grigri? I'd love to see the pictures. Hell I would doubt the Giri Giri boys even use one...and if anyone would it would be them!!

so does anyone know how much more force will be put on the top piece when the belayer is using a grigri vs when they are using an ATC? I tried searching but all I got was a bunch of petty arguments.

Squeezing down the cam arm is necessary to give slack fast for the climber to pull up rope to clip. What the Petzl video calls the "classic" method squeezes with all the fingers wrapped around to the top, with the thumb under to make a full grip. That was shown in the first set of photos. In the second set, the belayer did keep the brake rope in his fingers, as advised. Two fingers under is not much to release, and there has to be something to squeeze against. The video shows just the thumb pressing down the arm, but pressing against what support? While practicing, pulling up the climber rope will locate and stabilize the device in the carabiner, to be pushing down with the thumb; but in use, that doesn't work for me. I found that the index finger can hook under the lip on the brake side. That works well when I'm practicing the motion; but during a climb, the device is flopping around and I can't aim that well. Today, belaying a Trad lead, I was gripping any way that happened.

I thought that seeing a clip about to happen, I could hold the brake hand low to push up slack for the climber hand to pull without locking, but it locked anyway. Sigh. This is hard for me. Trad is much more complicated to watch and provide for than Sport. Also much slower, so more tiring from looking up so long. Trad is also a lot more fun to second, having to reverse the placements, but again a lot more tiring, holding a stance to peer into a crack to figure how to get a tiny cam out without jamming it worse and maybe losing it.

A very wiggly learning curve, for me.

.

Hey if all that is true, then I stand humbled and corrected. However I would still argue that there is no such thing as a pro climber. To me, the pursuit of the essence of climbing is seriously degraded when done for money and fame. To me, climbing is about the opposite of makign a living. Guides are making a living by guiding, not climbing. There IS a difference, however subtle you may think that difference is.

Of course these are all my opinions, and opinions are like assholes...everyone has one.

Sorry I couldn't identify Steph Davis. I am ashamed and humiliated, and I shall have to flog myself for not recognizing a "pro" climber immediately.

Hey if all that is true, then I stand humbled and corrected. However I would still argue that there is no such thing as a pro climber. To me, the pursuit of the essence of climbing is seriously degraded when done for money and fame. To me, climbing is about the opposite of makign a living. Guides are making a living by guiding, not climbing. There IS a difference, however subtle you may think that difference is.

Of course these are all my opinions, and opinions are like assholes...everyone has one.

Sorry I couldn't identify Steph Davis. I am ashamed and humiliated, and I shall have to flog myself for not recognizing a "pro" climber immediately.

Sorry if that didn't answer your question the way you'd like.

What it boils down to is that there are certainly many situations in which using a gri-gri versus a standard tube device could mean the difference between whether or not a top piece fails, and other cases in which it would make no difference.

GO

Many climbers before you have been able to get the technique. It does take practice. However if you cannot master it, lead belaying with the gri-gri may not be for you. Better to stick with a device you can operate perfectly every single time.

GO

Hey if all that is true, then I stand humbled and corrected. However I would still argue that there is no such thing as a pro climber. To me, the pursuit of the essence of climbing is seriously degraded when done for money and fame. To me, climbing is about the opposite of makign a living. Guides are making a living by guiding, not climbing. There IS a difference, however subtle you may think that difference is.

Of course these are all my opinions, and opinions are like assholes...everyone has one.

Sorry I couldn't identify Steph Davis. I am ashamed and humiliated, and I shall have to flog myself for not recognizing a "pro" climber immediately.

I am not out climbing, I'm out guiding,..... Of course climbing is involved...
RR

That is the most ridiculous bit of semantic nit-picking BS I've heard in a long time - perhaps ever. "Pursuit of the essence..."? WTF? Dude, they're making all their income by climbing. I can't think of a clearer definition of professional climber. Climbing for the sake of money and fame is well over 100 years old. And guiding isn't climbing? I'd think most guides would disagree with you. Have the painkillers for your ankle clouded your rational thinking ability?

The biggest names in traditional athletes may make the majority of their $$$ through endorsements and personal appearances - but they still make a lot just playing their game. So I'll go back to Rob's point - name me a climber who is getting paid for just climbing - not for climbing with Evolve shoes. Not for climbing with BD gear. Not for playing step and fetchit at a trade show when master calls...

Your example fails your own test. The biggest names in traditional sports aren't making money "just playing the game" - they're making money by playing for the Rangers or the Jets or the Giants. Playing for a sports franchise is basically the same as a pro climber being sponsored and paid by a gear manufacturer.

Nope. Can't compare to team sports. Use an individual sport which is what climbing is. Tennis, golf, boxing. Now even there I'll admit that the athletes still are constrained by certain expectations of the tour they are on etc. The problem is that the rewards in all those cases are based on competition results. Most people would say that pure climbing is not about competition. But no one is gong to get paid for just climbing in a vacuum. They are going to have to do something of worth to some sponsor to get paid. The closest yo could come wold be to be a trustafarian with a rich daddy.

Did you really just bring up golf? Tiger Woods makes the majority of his money through endorsements and hasn't won a thing in years. He certainly isn't living on his earnings

yes redlude, but the point thayt Eric is making is that Tiger can play golf, and earn money if he wins the competition. The whole argument that a football player is getting paid to play FOR a team is silly I think. They are getting paid to play the game. Is there a climber out there that earns a salary for just climbing?

Thanks for backing me up Eric! I was beginning to feel like a dunce. I'm used to it, but I still don't like it!

This probably deserves it's own thread so that this thread can go back to the original topic...those stupid and heavy grigris.

So let's take the sports end of this out of it. One could argue that Clim bing isnt even a sport. What does it mean to be a professional? To be paid for a service or activity? A plumber performs a service and someone pays him. A bank teller processes bak transactions and gets paid for the actions.

So if I were a professional climber some person or company would pay me to walk up to any random crag, flake out a rope, and climb a 2 pitch 5.10. This is what I mean by being a professional climber.

Would Black Diamond pay some rock Star to go to the cliff five days a week and do the same route over and over again, like a worker in a factory?

I guess part of the quibbling is about about whether being a "pro" means you earn your living from it vs. get some compensation - free t-shirt - woo-hoo from it. To earn your living it petty much needs to be a recognized "profession: for you to be a :pro: - although genius is often about inventing new professions. But I think it is far fetched to think that just climbing is going to be a profession.

What is the value of someone just flaking their (non branded) rope, lacing up their (non branded) shoes and just climbing? All your examples are about providing a real tangible service.

TC will come down from the latest Dawn Wall endeavor with tons of photos with his sponsors gear in them, make continuous blog entries thanking his sponsors and so on. Working his butt off with non climbing endeavors.

But if you want to define a "pro" as someone who gets some compensation of any form - then yeah there are some who are pro climbers with no obligations.

Again - don't get hung up on guiding as an argument. Being a good successful guide has very little to do with climbing. The average graduate from a state teacher's college will be a better guide then the average world cup climbing competitor.

Don't mean to interrupt things, but this is back on topic.

Here are some answers to questions posed in this thread.

I have found only one website that tested forces generated by Grigri versus those generated by an ATC. It's Geir Hundal’s site

http://www.geir.com/mythbuster.html

The Grigri generates more force. Visit the site for details, but here’s Geir’s bottom line:

“The small difference between the lower end of the gear's strength range and the forces we measured make it clear that there is a narrow margin between what the [traditional] gear can sustain and the forces that will be placed on if a fall occurs. Using a GriGri for a belay significantly narrows this margin because of its design. For this reason, a device which allows the rope to slip more easily through the device (such as an ATC) is a safer choice for traditional climbing.”

A year and a half ago Petzl had this on their website.

“Belay device for 10 to 11 mm (9.7 mm is acceptable) CE (EN 892)
and/or UIAA certified dynamic single ropes (core + sheath).
The GRIGRI is designed for indoor wall climbing or for rock climbing
on well-protected routes where anchors meet the EN/UIAA standard
(25 kN). It can be used to belay and lower a leader or a second.
It should not be used for mountaineering or adventure climbing’

I can no longer find that warning on their website. A Google search led to Petzl’s German website showing that this missing quote was still there. Curious.

However, even more curious is what Petzl is now saying:

http://www.petzl.com/...ice-assisted-braking

“Wed, 09/03/2011 - 17:39 — community_manager
Hello Nicholas,
Yes both tools Grigri 1 and Grigri 2 can be used for belaying in trad climbing with a single rope. We remind you that the major factors which reduce impact force on anchors are : the performance of your rope, the motion of the belayer, the friction of the rope in the gear and on the rock. the movement of the rope through the belay device is a minor factor. Never attach a grigri directly to an anchor to belay a leader.
Thank you for your interest “

The answer lacks quantification and ignores the effects on marginal placements and high forces that can be generated in falls near the anchor in multi-pitch climbing. I’ll be asking Petzl how they reconcile their current recommendations with their earlier warnings.

I’m not persuaded by the fact that top-rated climbers use the Grigri on routes with marginal gear or on multi-pitch climbs. I’m more interested in saving my own ass so that I do not use the Grigri in these circumstances.

Gratias et valete bene!
RobertusPunctumPacificus

Marginal placements by definition are more likely to pull when hit with any impact force. They answered the question, is the gri gri a safe belay device for gear protected climbing, yes it is. Marginal gear near the belay is like to pull with an ATC too.

I think you strongly overstate your case.

Last weekend I was belaying my wife as she led up a route in Indian Creek a day after it rained. I knew the route was going to be very hard for her, particularly the first 30 feet of it. I also knew that I outweigh her by a lot, and with the rope running straight, there would be no friction from the rock or gear.

For that lead on that day, I am 100% certain that my choosing a device that slips at a lower load added a meaningful level of safety to my belay. I really couldn't care less if you Guangzou, and every professional climber on Earth belays with a gri-gri all the time. I've read deeply enough to understand the forces involved, the failure modes, and the consequences. And beyond a doubt in my mind, there is a fall my wife could have taken that day that might have led to very severe consequences had I been belaying with a gri-gri, and no consequences with the device I was using.

You can chant your mantra "a gri-gri is safe, a gri-gri is safe" all you want, if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy. But when I have another person's life in my hands, and I know there is a better and safer choice, no fuckin' way.

Cheers,

GO

So if I were a professional climber some person or company would pay me to walk up to any random crag, flake out a rope, and climb a 2 pitch 5.10. This is what I mean by being a professional climber.

Wow, virtual fisticuffs over a subject that apparently no one has meaningful, concrete information on.

And yes, Patagonia pays its professional climbers to climb:
http://www.patagonia.com/...onia.go?assetid=2897

Which actually says:

Our ambassadors are more than just athletes; they are field testers for our gear and storytellers for our tribe. Patagonia ambassadors work closely with the design department to test, refine and validate our products in the harshest and most remote locations on the planet. And when unique, adventurous tales arise from that testing, we will share them with you through our catalogs and Web site.

Sounds to me like they are product testers. And story tellers. But I guess the key is "self described" - gotcha. Better watch out for how Joe Kinder self describes....

I think the comparison to sports breaks down in too many ways. Most sports where there are "pro" involve a much more extensive formal competition environment. Along with typically a lot of spectators. Pure climbing usually doesn't go there although there are exceptions - early ascents of the Nose or the Eiger for example.

But I have thought of a couple of situations where people do get paid for just doing their thing and they might be analogous.

1. The person who gets paid to just think - high priced think tanks, The old Bell Labs fellows for example.
2. Artists that get some support to just create with no constraints - more common in "gongshow"'s socialist European examples.

Petty rare though - not a viable career path for most.

But did she send? I hope so.

It's just a tool. If the person who's using it is proficient, you won't be able totell the difference between a Gri Gri, ATC, or Guide (Whatever) device when you are leading.

Used properly, they will all feed out slack and will all catch you properly.

Nope, hung all over it, I'm afraid. No actual falls. Just really kicked her butt - couldn't figure out the pods.

GO

In no way am I excusing or advocating bab belaying. But I've read too many stories of how "experienced" "competent" belayers ended up with rope burnt hands and decked leaders.

Curiously, bitd, before gri-gri's and climbing gyms, if there was a decking incident once in 5 years, it was a lot. Now we have discussion threads asking how many times you have decked. In the Gunks, we'd go consecutive seasons without any major accidents, let alone someone dropping someone.

Marc I have climbed and made money, (albeit a paltry sum) by giving a slideshow. Can I now "self describe" myself as a pro climber?

This is a ridiculous argument until we come up with an agreed upon definition of what a pro anything actually means.

Wikipedia offers this:

A professional is a person who is paid to undertake a specialised set of tasks and orchestrate them for a fee. One who is payed for a service or receives a fee for their work or effort. Traditional examples of professionals included doctors, lawyers, and clergy but is now more widely used to include estate agents, surveyors , environmental scientists, forensic scientists, educators and many more. The term is also used in sport to differentiate amateur players from those paid for their work. Hence professional footballer or professional golfer. Someone who is able to procure their knowledge and capability of a particular subject or area of experience.

In some cultures, the term is used as shorthand to describe a particular social stratum of well educated, mostly salaried workers, who enjoy considerable work autonomy, a comfortable salary, and are commonly engaged in creative and intellectually challenging work. Less technically, it may also refer to a person having impressive competence in a particular activity.

Because of the personal and confidential nature of many professional services and thus the necessity to place a great deal of trust in them, most professionals are subject to strict codes of conduct enshrining rigorous ethical and moral obligations.

I would argue that the term professional should not be applied to any sports related activities.

It should be reserved for "professions" Attaching the term to sports really undermines the word I think. It taints the activity. I have never thought a person should be paid for playing a game or recreational activity, including climbing.

If some company wants to give an athlete money for wearing or using their product, then that's fine...it still doesn't make them a professional...

I think you strongly overstate your case.

Last weekend I was belaying my wife as she led up a route in Indian Creek a day after it rained. I knew the route was going to be very hard for her, particularly the first 30 feet of it. I also knew that I outweigh her by a lot, and with the rope running straight, there would be no friction from the rock or gear.

For that lead on that day, I am 100% certain that my choosing a device that slips at a lower load added a meaningful level of safety to my belay. I really couldn't care less if you Guangzou, and every professional climber on Earth belays with a gri-gri all the time. I've read deeply enough to understand the forces involved, the failure modes, and the consequences. And beyond a doubt in my mind, there is a fall my wife could have taken that day that might have led to very severe consequences had I been belaying with a gri-gri, and no consequences with the device I was using.

You can chant your mantra "a gri-gri is safe, a gri-gri is safe" all you want, if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy. But when I have another person's life in my hands, and I know there is a better and safer choice, no fuckin' way.

Cheers,

GO

Whatever Marc. I disagree with you, and you can call me quixotic and all sorts of other things, but my opinion is just that. I'm not diminishing these climbers accomplishments. I just don't think the term professional is appropriate to use to describe a climber.

Gonzo, facts are either correct or incorrect. You either agree or disagree with an opinions. Opinions arent wrong or right, they just are. You can say that my opinion is based in incorrect facts, but you cant say my opinion is wrong. That's just silly. That's like saying my religion is wrong.

Fact: coffe has caffeine in it

Opinion: coffee tastes terrible

Fact: Tommy Caldwell makes $XX dollars from his climbing activities

Opinion: I don't think Tommy Caldwell is a professional.

see the difference Gonzo?

Fact: You are a carbon based life form.

Opinion: You have a room temperature IQ.

Gonzo, facts are either correct or incorrect. You either agree or disagree with an opinions. Opinions arent wrong or right, they just are. You can say that my opinion is based in incorrect facts, but you cant say my opinion is wrong. That's just silly. That's like saying my religion is wrong.

Fact: coffe has caffeine in it

Opinion: coffee tastes terrible

Fact: Tommy Caldwell makes $XX dollars from his climbing activities

Opinion: I don't think Tommy Caldwell is a professional.

see the difference Gonzo?

Gonzo, facts are either correct or incorrect. You either agree or disagree with an opinions. Opinions arent wrong or right, they just are. You can say that my opinion is based in incorrect facts, but you cant say my opinion is wrong. That's just silly. That's like saying my religion is wrong.

Fact: coffe has caffeine in it

Opinion: coffee tastes terrible



Fact: Tommy Caldwell makes $XX dollars from his climbing activities

Opinion: I don't think Tommy Caldwell is a professional.

see the difference Gonzo?

It seems that we have a difference of opinion then. In Rob's and my opinion (actually I shouldn't be assuming any thing for Rob) it doesn't count if you are making all your $$$ from endorsements and none just doing the fundamental thing. Yet all your examples - all the links describing them - come up with 0 examples of someone getting paid to climb. All the $$ come from endorsements, being reps, being ambassadors. You have been repeatedly challenged to come up with an example of someone getting paid simply or climbing and you have not been able to give one. Your definition of "professional" is more lax. It's your opinion of what the definition should be. It is not based on any facts.
So I guess you "win" by your definition and we "win" by ours. Although I still think the fact the some was a pro because they said so was hilarious and incredibly moronic even given rc.com standards.

It seems that we have a difference of opinion then. In Rob's and my opinion (actually I shouldn't be assuming any thing for Rob) it doesn't count if you are making all your $$$ from endorsements and none just doing the fundamental thing. Yet all your examples - all the links describing them - come up with 0 examples of someone getting paid to climb. All the $$ come from endorsements, being reps, being ambassadors. You have been repeatedly challenged to come up with an example of someone getting paid simply or climbing and you have not been able to give one. Your definition of "professional" is more lax. It's your opinion of what the definition should be. It is not based on any facts.
So I guess you "win" by your definition and we "win" by ours. Although I still think the fact the some was a pro because they said so was hilarious and incredibly moronic even given rc.com standards.

Can you give me a professional in any field that meets the criteria you describe? I doubt it, but let's see what you come up with.