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jt512
Nov 1, 2011, 7:00 PM
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hyhuu wrote: To the OP: Would you be less pissed if the group put their own draws up leaving your draws at the based of the climb until they are done?
Less pissed?
Jay
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A-Bowl
Nov 1, 2011, 7:05 PM
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Sounds like a sport related gripe. If its bugging you that bad project hard trad instead. You can't beat a big group of douche... so embrace them or get away.
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hyhuu
Nov 1, 2011, 7:21 PM
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jt512 wrote: hyhuu wrote: To the OP: Would you be less pissed if the group put their own draws up leaving your draws at the based of the climb until they are done? pissed? Jay
OK. Less upset.
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shotwell
Nov 1, 2011, 7:29 PM
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You're right, of course. Clearly a climber who routinely onsights 5.13a won't find the crux on a 5.12a hard. Clearly a 5.9 climber will find all the moves hard on most 5.12a's. Relatively speaking, V3-V4 would be a 'hard move' on this climb. It should go without saying that all climbs have 'hard moves,' even those that are mainly endurance dependent.
To be more precise you could say Scar Tissue is easy 5.10a climbing to a V3/4 crux. I preferred to say it has two hard moves. That these moves would be hard for a reasonably competent climber of the grade should be, of course, implied.
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jt512
Nov 1, 2011, 8:37 PM
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hyhuu wrote: jt512 wrote: hyhuu wrote: To the OP: Would you be less pissed if the group put their own draws up leaving your draws at the based of the climb until they are done? pissed? Jay OK. Less upset.
Less?
Jay
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lena_chita
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Nov 1, 2011, 8:50 PM
Post #31 of 55
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jt512 wrote: hyhuu wrote: jt512 wrote: hyhuu wrote: To the OP: Would you be less pissed if the group put their own draws up leaving your draws at the based of the climb until they are done? pissed? Jay OK. Less upset. ? Jay
The only thing I can think of is that hyhuu is making an obscure reference to the current draw drama at the RRG, and my sarcasm detector is not calibrated well...
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granite_grrl
Nov 1, 2011, 8:54 PM
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OP, if you have your draws hung then it's reasonable to cut into the rotation of college students who are hanging up your project. Even asking someone who is taking a ton of time dogging up a route if they could come down so you could get a burn in is reasonable.
And while I feel your pain about the brushing, I'm afraid there's not much you can do about that. Most people don't seem understand the concept in the first place so to actually get them to clean up the route after greasing it up for you is going to be a very difficult task.
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notapplicable
Nov 2, 2011, 12:15 AM
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jensk wrote: As a slave to Monday to Friday, I am a weekend warrior. I frequently show up at the crag for the weekend, warm up and then head to whatever my "project" currently is. I work the route, hang the draws, brush the holds, rest, and then give the first redpoint attempt of the day on a Saturday. My area features long endurance type climbs, so I only get a few good attempts a day. It seems like whenever I finish hanging the draws, a group of 5-6 college students will show up. The stud of the group will hangdog his way up the route by grabbing every draw and then let his buddies hang on top rope for the rest of the day for many hours. None of them have any prayer of redpointing. They grease the holds as they thrash up. Last weekend, I watched a shirtless dude dripping in sweat lean in to the holds as beads of sweat grease key crux edges. I politely sent up a brush with each dogger and ask that they brush key holds for me. Whenever I announce that I will be going for my next attempt in one hour, I have been told, "Oh, Bill, Steve, Mike, Tom, and John were going to get on this route also". After enduring this for awhile, I finally get annoyed to the point that I want to stick cliip the first two bolts, lean my stick onto the route and declare that it is off limits. The only problem is that all my friends want belays elsewhere at the crags so I have to leave. If I want to rest two hours, warm up briefly and then get on for another attempt, I should have the rights to get on. Any thoughts or tips? My experiences from Europe are that if I was French, I would just tie in and start leading and yell at the toproper above me. These groups just don't get the point and these routes aren't gumby routes. Last trip I just cut in and am glad I did. One putz that was putting on his shoes was miffed last trip that I cut in. Our area has over a 1,000 sport routes and the routes are very texture dependent (brushing wise) so I ain't just whining. (although many of the routes I am working have fixed draws year round) I ice climb a ton and find that in ice climbing, we always let the leader pre-empt the top roper.
Here ya go princess. Now dry those cryin eyes.
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petsfed
Nov 2, 2011, 1:42 AM
Post #34 of 55
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hyhuu wrote: To the OP: Would you be less pissed if the group put their own draws up leaving your draws at the based of the climb until they are done?
You know, if all that was keeping me from leaving was waiting on the bro-brigade to finish up on my gear, I'd be a little less pissed. On the other hand, if they're using my draws (especially for the toproping operation), I think I've got the right to insist they let me in.
Yes, its first-come, first-served, and yes, I can't hog a route for the whole day. But I have the absolute right to dictate who uses gear that I own, and in what fashion. Maybe its a dick move to leave my draws on a climb for more than the period of time it takes to climb it and clean it, but if you're at an established sport area, the only ones who will give a damn are the ones who will happily spray about easier routes on gear as if sending a 5.10 on natural pro was somehow a more impressive feat than a 5.12, bolted or otherwise.
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hyhuu
Nov 2, 2011, 12:37 PM
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lena_chita wrote: jt512 wrote: hyhuu wrote: jt512 wrote: hyhuu wrote: To the OP: Would you be less pissed if the group put their own draws up leaving your draws at the based of the climb until they are done? pissed? Jay OK. Less upset. ? Jay The only thing I can think of is that hyhuu is making an obscure reference to the current draw drama at the RRG, and my sarcasm detector is not calibrated well...
Nope. I'm not aware of any drama at RRG, which I'm sure there are plenty at any popular crags. I was just asking a hypothetical question out of curiosity. Since I am too weak to climb anything that has pre-hang draws on it and can't imaging hogging a route is fun either, I'm just not sure what is the norm. It seems beside the first come first serve rule, there is also whose draws are on the route rule for sport.
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granite_grrl
Nov 2, 2011, 1:04 PM
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hyhuu wrote: lena_chita wrote: jt512 wrote: hyhuu wrote: jt512 wrote: hyhuu wrote: To the OP: Would you be less pissed if the group put their own draws up leaving your draws at the based of the climb until they are done? pissed? Jay OK. Less upset. ? Jay The only thing I can think of is that hyhuu is making an obscure reference to the current draw drama at the RRG, and my sarcasm detector is not calibrated well... Nope. I'm not aware of any drama at RRG, which I'm sure there are plenty at any popular crags. I was just asking a hypothetical question out of curiosity. Since I am too weak to climb anything that has pre-hang draws on it and can't imaging hogging a route is fun either, I'm just not sure what is the norm. It seems beside the first come first serve rule, there is also whose draws are on the route rule for sport.
On the other hand, I wouldn't give a person the same kind of courtesy if they had their draws hung on a popular route but taking an hour plus on each burn to work out the moves. Spending this kind of time on a popular sport route when it's busy is rude at the best of times anyway.
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njrox
Nov 2, 2011, 1:04 PM
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petsfed wrote: ...if they're using my draws (especially for the toproping operation), I think I've got the right to insist they let me in...I have the absolute right to dictate who uses gear that I own, and in what fashion
Can't argue with that.
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bigo
Nov 2, 2011, 3:03 PM
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The way we have managed this is to take our redpoint burn on the top-roper's rope so they can continue the gang bang after. Or, if there is friction, ask them to clean my draws immediately and move on. It is not really worth getting butt hurt over; but yes annoying.
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caughtinside
Nov 2, 2011, 3:44 PM
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lena_chita wrote: shotwell wrote: caughtinside wrote: lena_chita wrote: caughtinside wrote: camhead wrote: lena_chita wrote: The more common scenario (and no less vexing) is that you let one person get on the route, thinking that a reasonable attempt would take about 30 minutes, approximately the rest time you have in mind, and find out that this person's idea of "one run" on a route involves hanging out at each bolt for 20 minutes, and they feel entitled to spend two hours on the route, regardless of who is waiting... I can see this as a very Scarring experience. Should I get you a Tissue? [:) har har. Welcome to the Red. Oh, I forgot that it was you, not camhead, who had SCAR TISSUE over this experience. well, it was snoop who really got the shaft. But the behavior was pretty impressive. It seriously was rest at each bolt more than five minutes. Go to the next bolt and repeat, doing each move only when fresh. Then coming down after 30+ minutes, and thinking you have a prayer to redpoint next go. And predictably hanging on every bolt. On Scar Tissue? There are two hard moves...both at the top! One hard move at the top. And the entire climb is 5 bolts, with a lot of people stick-clipping the 2nd to begin with... That's what made the super-long session so much more ridiculous. I don't know how long snoop waited after we left, but earlier in the day I'd say my observations suggested the progress rate somewhere in the neighborhood of 1ft/minute, or 45 feet in 45 minutes.
Yeah, it was super lame. It went like this. Group was working it. We ask if we can work in. Not even the group, just put snoop on there for a run. The draws were up and it's 50 feet long, so even if he dogs we're looking at 10 minutes with the route. THey seem cool with it.
We go do some other stuff. Come back, route is open. The chick says 'can I take a run first' and we say sure. The chick dogs the piss out of it, it was a 25 minute run. RIght when she is at the chains and lowering 5 feet to work the top move a couple more times, the other idiot tells us he's on it next, he's ready to redpoint.
We can't believe it. We stood right there for 25 minutes and told them we were running next but dude says he didn't think his friend would take that long. I told him he totally screwed us by not saying anything earlier, we would just have done another route. He looked sorta sheepish but that's it.
We go and do some of those 11s to the right. I watched the redpointer, and he went bolt to bolt. No prayer of sending.
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jt512
Nov 2, 2011, 4:22 PM
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njrox wrote: petsfed wrote: ...if they're using my draws (especially for the toproping operation), I think I've got the right to insist they let me in... I have the absolute right to dictate who uses gear that I own, and in what fashion Can't argue with that.
I can (and will) argue vociferously about the part that I bolded. If you hang your draws on a sport route, you little to no say about who can use them. You might own the draws, but you don't own the route. If you aren't willing to let most anyone run your draws, don't hang them. Better yet, stick to trad.
Jay
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shotwell
Nov 2, 2011, 4:43 PM
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jt512 wrote: njrox wrote: petsfed wrote: ...if they're using my draws (especially for the toproping operation), I think I've got the right to insist they let me in... I have the absolute right to dictate who uses gear that I own, and in what fashion Can't argue with that. I can (and will) argue vociferously about the part that I bolded. If you hang your draws on a sport route, you little to no say about who can use them. You might own the draws, but you don't own the route. If you aren't willing to let most anyone run your draws, don't hang them. Better yet, stick to trad. Jay
I would agree with Jay here. I do believe that a party using your draws should be willing to clean them when you ask or let you take a burn and clean them at their refusal.
In general, politeness goes a long way at the sport crag. Treating others kindly and clearly communicating your desires will typically get you what you want. Setting realistic expectations for other people is essential. Not everyone will understand your view of courtesy as is clearly shown by the various opinions on this thread.
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njrox
Nov 2, 2011, 5:32 PM
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I agree with not leaving them up if you don’t want others to use them.
What I wouldn’t agree with is a situation where somebody comes across a route with draws hung, gets ready to climb, and then somebody shows up saying “those are mine” and tells you they’re taking them down before you climb. Or any situation where keeping/leaving gear (like draws) on a route and thinking it gives you some sort of lordship over it.
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petsfed
Nov 2, 2011, 7:41 PM
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jt512 wrote: njrox wrote: petsfed wrote: ...if they're using my draws (especially for the toproping operation), I think I've got the right to insist they let me in... I have the absolute right to dictate who uses gear that I own, and in what fashion Can't argue with that. I can (and will) argue vociferously about the part that I bolded. If you hang your draws on a sport route, you little to no say about who can use them. You might own the draws, but you don't own the route. If you aren't willing to let most anyone run your draws, don't hang them. Better yet, stick to trad. Jay
Keep in mind that I don't equate "right" to "obligation". My point was that I can say, at any time, "I don't want people on my gear anymore", and provided that I give them a chance to replace it with their own, I'm not in the wrong. I think anybody who prehangs draws and then chases everybody off a route they're not actively climbing is as much a dick as the guy who spends 2 hours power dogging on a stranger's draws without so much as a by-your-leave. I think I'd be pretty pissed if I couldn't get on my project and couldn't go elsewhere because some jackass refuses to replace my draws with theirs. Moreover, if I said "you mind swapping out my draws, I'd like to go elsewhere", I can expect that they'll move like they've got a purpose. Maybe that's an overly widget-fiddly point of view, but I also know that I don't have enough draws to rig a project and several other climbs simultaneously, especially if my partner and I have separate projects.
I think I'm coming on a little strong about queue busting, which isn't really what I want to express.
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camhead
Nov 2, 2011, 7:59 PM
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ok, ok, ok, here's a dilemma that happened a few weeks back to us and caused some butthurt. I'd be interested in seeing what other people think of this.
Scenario:
We put draws up on a climb that my wife was working. Since we had a stick clip, we just pre-clipped the second bolt, leaving nothing on the first bolt. My wife took a couple runs on the route, then we went around the corner to a route that I wanted to do. I noticed that there was another party waiting to get on the route we had just been on, which was no big deal.
About two hours later, a little late in the afternoon, we returned back to the route to clean our draws off of it. It turns out that the other party had left their draw on the first bolt. They were nowhere in sight.
So, what would you do? Clean all the draws off except for theirs? Or leave the single draw up on the route, with the rest of it stripped?
Oh, and in case it matters, the draw they left was about fifteen feet up, with steep, insecure, slopey 11a-ish climbing to get to it.
Anyway, I wonder what ya'll would do. Post up, and I'll tell you what I did.
(This post was edited by camhead on Nov 2, 2011, 8:00 PM)
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jt512
Nov 2, 2011, 8:11 PM
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camhead wrote: ok, ok, ok, here's a dilemma that happened a few weeks back to us and caused some butthurt. I'd be interested in seeing what other people think of this. Scenario: We put draws up on a climb that my wife was working. Since we had a stick clip, we just pre-clipped the second bolt, leaving nothing on the first bolt. My wife took a couple runs on the route, then we went around the corner to a route that I wanted to do. I noticed that there was another party waiting to get on the route we had just been on, which was no big deal. About two hours later, a little late in the afternoon, we returned back to the route to clean our draws off of it. It turns out that the other party had left their draw on the first bolt. They were nowhere in sight. So, what would you do? Clean all the draws off except for theirs? Or leave the single draw up on the route, with the rest of it stripped?
Hey, is this a trick question? Those two options are the same.
I'd leave the draw up, since the only other reasonable options would be to remove it and leave it at the base of the route, where it would be more likely to be stolen.
Jay
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csproul
Nov 2, 2011, 8:15 PM
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camhead wrote: ok, ok, ok, here's a dilemma that happened a few weeks back to us and caused some butthurt. I'd be interested in seeing what other people think of this. Scenario: We put draws up on a climb that my wife was working. Since we had a stick clip, we just pre-clipped the second bolt, leaving nothing on the first bolt. My wife took a couple runs on the route, then we went around the corner to a route that I wanted to do. I noticed that there was another party waiting to get on the route we had just been on, which was no big deal. About two hours later, a little late in the afternoon, we returned back to the route to clean our draws off of it. It turns out that the other party had left their draw on the first bolt. They were nowhere in sight. So, what would you do? Clean all the draws off except for theirs? Or leave the single draw up on the route, with the rest of it stripped? Oh, and in case it matters, the draw they left was about fifteen feet up, with steep, insecure, slopey 11a-ish climbing to get to it. Anyway, I wonder what ya'll would do. Post up, and I'll tell you what I did.
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njrox
Nov 2, 2011, 8:16 PM
Post #47 of 55
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camhead wrote: ok, ok, ok, here's a dilemma that happened a few weeks back to us and caused some butthurt. I'd be interested in seeing what other people think of this. Scenario: We put draws up on a climb that my wife was working. Since we had a stick clip, we just pre-clipped the second bolt, leaving nothing on the first bolt. My wife took a couple runs on the route, then we went around the corner to a route that I wanted to do. I noticed that there was another party waiting to get on the route we had just been on, which was no big deal. About two hours later, a little late in the afternoon, we returned back to the route to clean our draws off of it. It turns out that the other party had left their draw on the first bolt. They were nowhere in sight. So, what would you do? Clean all the draws off except for theirs? Or leave the single draw up on the route, with the rest of it stripped? Oh, and in case it matters, the draw they left was about fifteen feet up, with steep, insecure, slopey 11a-ish climbing to get to it. Anyway, I wonder what ya'll would do. Post up, and I'll tell you what I did.
Did you remove all of your draws and then stick clip their draw to the 2nd bolt?
I would have left their draw where it was.
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camhead
Nov 2, 2011, 8:22 PM
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jt512 wrote: camhead wrote: ok, ok, ok, here's a dilemma that happened a few weeks back to us and caused some butthurt. I'd be interested in seeing what other people think of this. Scenario: We put draws up on a climb that my wife was working. Since we had a stick clip, we just pre-clipped the second bolt, leaving nothing on the first bolt. My wife took a couple runs on the route, then we went around the corner to a route that I wanted to do. I noticed that there was another party waiting to get on the route we had just been on, which was no big deal. About two hours later, a little late in the afternoon, we returned back to the route to clean our draws off of it. It turns out that the other party had left their draw on the first bolt. They were nowhere in sight. So, what would you do? Clean all the draws off except for theirs? Or leave the single draw up on the route, with the rest of it stripped? Hey, is this a trick question? Those two options are the same. I'd leave the draw up, since the only other reasonable options would be to remove it and leave it at the base of the route, where it would be more likely to be stolen. Jay
Gawddammit, that's what I get for multitasking and typgin in a hurry.
Anyway, the other option should have read, "or take the draw down and give it back to them, since I recognized them from getting on the route, and I knew what direction they had likely gone at the crag."
Anyway, here's what I did, and it might not have been that well thought out:
I figured that, since it was a kind of hard route (12b), I would clean their draw, find them, and give it back to them, offering to rehang it with my stickclip if they wanted. If I left their draw up, my logic was they would either have to finish the whole route as the day was ending, or do a dangerous unprotected downclimb.
So that's what I did. However, as soon as I lowered off the cleaned route and was untying, one of the guys came up, saying, "do you have my draw?" I said "yes," took it off my harness, gave it to him, and offered to rehang it if he wanted.
He just kind of madly walked off, while muttering, "yeah, still hanging on his harness."
My wife spoke up and told him we were not trying to steal his gear, and he kind of blew up at us, yelling about how you shouldn't mess with others' gear, how he didn't need any stick clip to rehang stuff, and how we were trying to steal his draw.
I guess I may have made the wrong decision; no attempted good deed goes unpunished.
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njrox
Nov 2, 2011, 8:27 PM
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camhead wrote: "yeah, still hanging on his harness."
haahaahaahaha!
we don't need no stinkin' stickclip brah
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camhead
Nov 2, 2011, 8:30 PM
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njrox wrote: camhead wrote: "yeah, still hanging on his harness." haahaahaahaha! we don't need no stinkin' stickclip brah
yeah, that was the funniest part. When I offered to rehang it and he adopted the cocky purist stance, "we DIDN'T use a stickclip. We didn't NEED a stickclip."
I should have just held onto the draw, put it back up, and walked away. Hindsight.
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