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cracklover
Feb 27, 2012, 8:46 PM
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jt512 wrote: cracklover wrote: jt512 wrote: I climbed for a good 15 years before I read the SCC, and when I did, it opened my eyes to a whole new level of climbing. Basically, I had been doing it all wrong for 15 years, and had to re-teach myself climbing from—no pun intended—the ground up. Actually, Douglas was more charitable. He said I was only doing it all wrong about half the time. Jay Okay, interesting. So can you give an example of something that was working but was "wrong"? What made it wrong? And what was the "right" solution, and what made it better? GO The building blocks of climbing movement are not discrete techniques, like flags, backsteps, and hand jams. Rather, they are things like balance, movement initiation, movement centers, momentum generation, body tension, timing, and so on. Except possibly for balance, I had no concept of those elements. I wasn't engaging my legs and back, I was dropping my heels, I wasn't arching my back enough, I had no body tension, I wasn't effectively generating momentum. Essentially, I thought of climbing like this: find the next handhold, move the feet up, get in balance and reach for the next handhold. That doesn't mean I wasn't backstepping, flagging, drop-kneeing, and all that. I was. I had a pretty good idea about how to engage the holds to form a high-quality base of support and to stay in balance. But that was about it. Jay
Well then wouldn't it be more fair to say that you were able to learn on your own the fundamentals of keeping your COG over your feet in a static way? That's an important set of fundamentals. It sounds like you just got stuck when it came to figuring out how to make your *movement* efficient.
Anyway, you should give yourself credit for the first half, rather than just saying you failed to figure everything out for yourself, and therefore figuring things out for oneself doesn't work.
Perhaps the problem was that when you started climbing, "static" was the end-all-be-all, and that's all you strove to become?
Be that as it may, I still stand by the fact that while everyone could probably benefit from really good coaching, one can always make new strides in technique through a combination of paying close attention to your own movements, including intelligent experimentation and improvisation, combined with striving to gain new insight.
GO
(This post was edited by cracklover on Feb 27, 2012, 8:49 PM)
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jt512
Feb 27, 2012, 8:52 PM
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cracklover wrote: one can always make new strides in technique through a combination of paying close attention to your own movements, including intelligent experimentation and improvisation, combined with striving to gain new insight.
Or you can just further ingrain bad habits, which is what the vast majority of climbers I see do.
Jay
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njrox
Feb 27, 2012, 9:19 PM
Post #128 of 151
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jt512 wrote: The building blocks of climbing movement are not discrete techniques, like flags, backsteps, and hand jams. Rather, they are things like balance, movement initiation, movement centers, momentum generation, body tension, timing, and so on. Except possibly for balance, I had no concept of those elements. I wasn't engaging my legs and back, I was dropping my heels, I wasn't arching my back enough, I had no body tension, I wasn't effectively generating momentum. Essentially, I thought of climbing like this: find the next handhold, move the feet up, get in balance and reach for the next handhold. That doesn't mean I wasn't backstepping, flagging, drop-kneeing, and all that. I was. I had a pretty good idea about how to engage the holds to form a high-quality base of support and to stay in balance. But that was about it. Jay
This is actually a really good argument to learn outside of a "just climb" approach to improve on climbing technique.
But for so many of us climbing at best is a once a week thing. Maybe two hours in the gym on a weeknight. Maybe a six hour day on the weeked on rock. When that's all the time you get, the mindset of "training" isn't there as much as just going to climb and have fun. So beyond flagging and drop knees you're not hearing about the finer techniques as much. And while waiting for lines to free up, you're not able to work endurance sets as easily.
Maybe I'll take another look through my SCC and see if there's a couple of things I can remember to be mindful of next time. Try and add a few techniques over time while I'm "just climbing".
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lena_chita
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Feb 27, 2012, 9:33 PM
Post #129 of 151
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jt512 wrote: cracklover wrote: one can always make new strides in technique through a combination of paying close attention to your own movements, including intelligent experimentation and improvisation, combined with striving to gain new insight. Or you can just further ingrain bad habits, which is what the vast majority of climbers I see do. Jay
We are having a circular argument.
Most people got to where they are without any regimented coaching or regimented learning at all. Trial and error can take you some distance. And many of them got to be quite good that way.
So then they say: "look, I learned on my own, I paid attention to what I was doing, I got to be pretty good, and I am continuing to improve. So everyone else can, too, and if everyone pays attention to what they are doing, the way I did, the coaching is not necessary. If anything, the coaching turns off your brain and makes you follow other people's instructions instead of learning things on your own"
What is missing is the hypothetical possibility that with good coaching the same person could have gotten further. But it cannot be formally tested in the case of this specific person.
You are coming from a different viewpoint. For you, SCC was a breakthrough. If you never came across SCC, if you never talked to Dan, you might have discovered these things on your own, some ways down the road... who knows? But you didn't, so you look back at your experience and see that as pivotal and crucial.
The only way to test these things would be to take two groups of beginner climbers, randomize them by their ability, and let one group discover things on their own, listening to their bodies, paying attention, experimenting, etc. etc., while the other group would get formal coaching.
or, to take a group of climbers of similar ability level, randomize into two groups, repeat as above.
There is no doubt at all in my mind that the coached group would perform better, and that even those who got to be really good climbers on their own could still get better/improve faster with coaching.
But back to real world, we have no coaches to go to, so your best bet is a combination of the following approaches:
-- to climb and to figure out things on your own, by being attentive to what you are doing
-- to get feedback from friends and other people offering advice, preferably good climbers
-- to read anything that has been written about climbing training, decide what makes sense, and follow the plan to the best of your ability.
Once again, some people will do more of one, and some will do more of the other, and most will do some sort of combination of the above... and if they feel that they are getting better on their chosen regimen, they will continue to believe that their way is the right way, because here is the evidence that it works, and never mind the fact that it COULD potentially work even better if they did something else.
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shockabuku
Feb 27, 2012, 9:38 PM
Post #130 of 151
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lena_chita wrote: jt512 wrote: cracklover wrote: one can always make new strides in technique through a combination of paying close attention to your own movements, including intelligent experimentation and improvisation, combined with striving to gain new insight. Or you can just further ingrain bad habits, which is what the vast majority of climbers I see do. Jay We are having a circular argument. Most people got to where they are without any regimented coaching or regimented learning at all. Trial and error can take you some distance. And many of them got to be quite good that way. So then they say: "look, I learned on my own, I paid attention to what I was doing, I got to be pretty good, and I am continuing to improve. So everyone else can, too, and if everyone pays attention to what they are doing, the way I did, the coaching is not necessary. If anything, the coaching turns off your brain and makes you follow other people's instructions instead of learning things on your own" What is missing is the hypothetical possibility that with good coaching the same person could have gotten further. But it cannot be formally tested in the case of this specific person. You are coming from a different viewpoint. For you, SCC was a breakthrough. If you never came across SCC, if you never talked to Dan, you might have discovered these things on your own, some ways down the road... who knows? But you didn't, so you look back at your experience and see that as pivotal and crucial. The only way to test these things would be to take two groups of beginner climbers, randomize them by their ability, and let one group discover things on their own, listening to their bodies, paying attention, experimenting, etc. etc., while the other group would get formal coaching. or, to take a group of climbers of similar ability level, randomize into two groups, repeat as above. There is no doubt at all in my mind that the coached group would perform better, and that even those who got to be really good climbers on their own could still get better/improve faster with coaching. But back to real world, we have no coaches to go to, so your best bet is a combination of the following approaches: -- to climb and to figure out things on your own, by being attentive to what you are doing -- to get feedback from friends and other people offering advice, preferably good climbers -- to read anything that has been written about climbing training, decide what makes sense, and follow the plan to the best of your ability. Once again, some people will do more of one, and some will do more of the other, and most will do some sort of combination of the above... and if they feel that they are getting better on their chosen regimen, they will continue to believe that their way is the right way, because here is the evidence that it works, and never mind the fact that it COULD potentially work even better if they did something else.
I keep thinking about some regular work with a coach. I think I'll try to start that this year.
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shockabuku
Feb 27, 2012, 9:49 PM
Post #131 of 151
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cracklover wrote: jt512 wrote: cracklover wrote: jt512 wrote: I climbed for a good 15 years before I read the SCC, and when I did, it opened my eyes to a whole new level of climbing. Basically, I had been doing it all wrong for 15 years, and had to re-teach myself climbing from—no pun intended—the ground up. Actually, Douglas was more charitable. He said I was only doing it all wrong about half the time. Jay Okay, interesting. So can you give an example of something that was working but was "wrong"? What made it wrong? And what was the "right" solution, and what made it better? GO The building blocks of climbing movement are not discrete techniques, like flags, backsteps, and hand jams. Rather, they are things like balance, movement initiation, movement centers, momentum generation, body tension, timing, and so on. Except possibly for balance, I had no concept of those elements. I wasn't engaging my legs and back, I was dropping my heels, I wasn't arching my back enough, I had no body tension, I wasn't effectively generating momentum. Essentially, I thought of climbing like this: find the next handhold, move the feet up, get in balance and reach for the next handhold. That doesn't mean I wasn't backstepping, flagging, drop-kneeing, and all that. I was. I had a pretty good idea about how to engage the holds to form a high-quality base of support and to stay in balance. But that was about it. Jay Well then wouldn't it be more fair to say that you were able to learn on your own the fundamentals of keeping your COG over your feet in a static way? That's an important set of fundamentals. It sounds like you just got stuck when it came to figuring out how to make your *movement* efficient. Anyway, you should give yourself credit for the first half, rather than just saying you failed to figure everything out for yourself, and therefore figuring things out for oneself doesn't work. Perhaps the problem was that when you started climbing, "static" was the end-all-be-all, and that's all you strove to become? Be that as it may, I still stand by the fact that while everyone could probably benefit from really good coaching, one can always make new strides in technique through a combination of paying close attention to your own movements, including intelligent experimentation and improvisation, combined with striving to gain new insight. GO
This is interesting to me. I started out a trad climber and I also used to think that slow deliberate movement was the hallmark of good climbing.
I read 9 out of 10 Climbers Make the Same Mistakes by Dave MacLeod recently in which he says that almost all movement should be dynamic to some degree. I started incorporating some element of dynamism into my climbing and my bouldering has improved tremendously (for me) in the last six months.
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jt512
Feb 27, 2012, 9:58 PM
Post #132 of 151
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lena_chita wrote: jt512 wrote: cracklover wrote: one can always make new strides in technique through a combination of paying close attention to your own movements, including intelligent experimentation and improvisation, combined with striving to gain new insight. Or you can just further ingrain bad habits, which is what the vast majority of climbers I see do. Jay We are having a circular argument.
On the Internet? No way.
In reply to: Most people got to where they are without any regimented coaching or regimented learning at all. Trial and error can take you some distance. And many of them got to be quite good that way.
Agreed.
In reply to: You are coming from a different viewpoint. For you, SCC was a breakthrough. If you never came across SCC, if you never talked to Dan [sic, s/b Douglas], you might have discovered these things on your own, some ways down the road... who knows? But you didn't, so you look back at your experience and see that as pivotal and crucial.
SCC was definitely a breakthrough for me, and it's virtually certain that I never would have discovered the principles in that book on my own. I was stuck in the wrong climbing paradigm, and my efforts at observation and self-improvement were limited by that paradigm.
In reply to: But back to real world, we have no coaches to go to, so your best bet is a combination of the following approaches: -- to climb and to figure out things on your own, by being attentive to what you are doing -- to get feedback from friends and other people offering advice, preferably good climbers -- to read anything that has been written about climbing training, decide what makes sense, and follow the plan to the best of your ability.
This is exactly where the SCC comes it. It provides a fundamental model of climbing movement (one could argue a fundamentally correct model) that, once understood, gives the climber a valid framework from which to evaluate and improve his own climbing. It's no longer a process of trial and error, or learning from better climbers who may be teaching you their own bad habits, or having to discover first principles on your own.
Jay
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naitch
Feb 27, 2012, 10:07 PM
Post #133 of 151
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shockabuku wrote: cracklover wrote: jt512 wrote: cracklover wrote: jt512 wrote: I climbed for a good 15 years before I read the SCC, and when I did, it opened my eyes to a whole new level of climbing. Basically, I had been doing it all wrong for 15 years, and had to re-teach myself climbing from—no pun intended—the ground up. Actually, Douglas was more charitable. He said I was only doing it all wrong about half the time. Jay Okay, interesting. So can you give an example of something that was working but was "wrong"? What made it wrong? And what was the "right" solution, and what made it better? GO The building blocks of climbing movement are not discrete techniques, like flags, backsteps, and hand jams. Rather, they are things like balance, movement initiation, movement centers, momentum generation, body tension, timing, and so on. Except possibly for balance, I had no concept of those elements. I wasn't engaging my legs and back, I was dropping my heels, I wasn't arching my back enough, I had no body tension, I wasn't effectively generating momentum. Essentially, I thought of climbing like this: find the next handhold, move the feet up, get in balance and reach for the next handhold. That doesn't mean I wasn't backstepping, flagging, drop-kneeing, and all that. I was. I had a pretty good idea about how to engage the holds to form a high-quality base of support and to stay in balance. But that was about it. Jay Well then wouldn't it be more fair to say that you were able to learn on your own the fundamentals of keeping your COG over your feet in a static way? That's an important set of fundamentals. It sounds like you just got stuck when it came to figuring out how to make your *movement* efficient. Anyway, you should give yourself credit for the first half, rather than just saying you failed to figure everything out for yourself, and therefore figuring things out for oneself doesn't work. Perhaps the problem was that when you started climbing, "static" was the end-all-be-all, and that's all you strove to become? Be that as it may, I still stand by the fact that while everyone could probably benefit from really good coaching, one can always make new strides in technique through a combination of paying close attention to your own movements, including intelligent experimentation and improvisation, combined with striving to gain new insight. GO This is interesting to me. I started out a trad climber and I also used to think that slow deliberate movement was the hallmark of good climbing. I read 9 out of 10 Climbers Make the Same Mistakes by Dave MacLeod recently in which he says that almost all movement should be dynamic to some degree. I started incorporating some element of dynamism into my climbing and my bouldering has improved tremendously (for me) in the last six months.
I'm glad someone mentioned this book. I think the 3 books that have benefited me the most are SCC, "9 Out of 10...", and "The Rock Warrior's Way" by Arno.
Even if one doesn't have access to a competent coach on a regular basis, i think getting a session whenever possible is highly beneficial.
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ceebo
Feb 28, 2012, 1:28 AM
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I see what you done their, but on the whole.. the soon to be dad builds the new pram faster when he reads the instructions.
So with that in mind, why ignore the decades worth of info from other climbers?.
For the most part books and so just put a word to something you already do and help you understand what it is. On the other hand they help you forumlate tried and tested training methods that braught great results to others. Maybe it worked for them and will not work for you?.. but in reality their is more chance those will help than make things worse.
allot of time people have to much pride and want to go about like they figured it all out themself. Every body need to learn what they can from who they can.. its the best weay,
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boadman
Mar 2, 2012, 7:34 AM
Post #135 of 151
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jt512 wrote: sandeld wrote: Wouldn't that be similar to watching any other climbing DVD? Nope. In reply to: Of course, SCC is solely training based whereas the others aren't, but that's where mimicking comes into play. Mimicking doesn't work, except to correct gross errors in movement. If you really want to learn to climb well, you've got two choices: a personal climbing coach or The Self-Coached Climber. Jay
Wow, I wonder how Sharma & Ondra managed to learn decent technique. Bachar sucked too. And that guy Peter Croft never really managed to climb well. Imagine if he had only been able to read the hallowed work!
Seriously JT, think critically. Even koolaid drinkers can sip other beverages occassionally when they're thirsty.
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jt512
Mar 2, 2012, 8:35 AM
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boadman wrote: jt512 wrote: sandeld wrote: Wouldn't that be similar to watching any other climbing DVD? Nope. In reply to: Of course, SCC is solely training based whereas the others aren't, but that's where mimicking comes into play. Mimicking doesn't work, except to correct gross errors in movement. If you really want to learn to climb well, you've got two choices: a personal climbing coach or The Self-Coached Climber. Jay Wow, I wonder how Sharma & Ondra managed to learn decent technique. Bachar sucked too. And that guy Peter Croft never really managed to climb well. Imagine if he had only been able to read the hallowed work! Seriously JT, think critically. Even koolaid drinkers can sip other beverages occassionally when they're thirsty.
Seriously, boadman, think critically. I wonder why more climbers don't climb as well as Sharma and Ondra.
Jay
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onceahardman
Mar 2, 2012, 11:23 PM
Post #137 of 151
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boadman wrote: jt512 wrote: sandeld wrote: Wouldn't that be similar to watching any other climbing DVD? Nope. In reply to: Of course, SCC is solely training based whereas the others aren't, but that's where mimicking comes into play. Mimicking doesn't work, except to correct gross errors in movement. If you really want to learn to climb well, you've got two choices: a personal climbing coach or The Self-Coached Climber. Jay Wow, I wonder how Sharma & Ondra managed to learn decent technique. Bachar sucked too. And that guy Peter Croft never really managed to climb well. Imagine if he had only been able to read the hallowed work! Seriously JT, think critically. Even koolaid drinkers can sip other beverages occassionally when they're thirsty.
Well stated. True Believers can never question anything that is written in The Book. How in the world do so many Euros climb higher numbers?
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derk424
Mar 22, 2012, 3:51 PM
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For me, at first it was a pure watch and learn approach. Then, once I was friends with some of the stronger climbers in the gym, I asked what they saw as flaws. They pointed out the footwork/body position issues. So i started doing exercises like silent feet, down-climbing, traversing for long periods. The more pumped you get the more critical your footwork/efficiency becomes.
Ultimately, I hit a plateau just on self-training with no real guidance. I joined the gyms team and the coach pointed out things I couldn't see because its hard to analyze mistakes when you can't watch yourself climb.
Picked up the SCC after that and just furthered my understanding.
After about a year the final step in really understanding movement was to start setting at the gym, which just blows your mind on learning how to read routes and body position.
Hope it helps.
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flesh
Mar 22, 2012, 5:15 PM
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It's interesting reading all of your thoughts on this. Jt like usual could be more friendly.
At some point Jay mentioned that he has a PHD or masters in some sort of science, it's likely that he naturally or through practice learns best through reading/studying. Other folks learn differently, there's many ways to measure an individuals intelligence. Some folks may learn best through watching videos of themselves or others or watching other advanced climbers. Also, we all have different body types with different strengths and weaknesses. We may have more or less fast twitch vs slow twitch muscle fibers that change what style or technique might work best for us, etc.
It makes me wonder if I inadvertantly learned alot of the SCC technique/training. The first gym I ever had a membership to was Doug Hunter's gym. I bouldered with him a dozen times. He never trained me personally but I regularly climbed with the kids he did train my first few years. Everyone at that gym did 4 x 4's, climbed with straight arms, etc. This was in 1997.
I remember reading different books my first few years, how to climb 5.12 , etc. They did nothing for me.
Dave Mcleod's book 9 out of 10, is great for intermediate and advanced climbers. IMO, Doug Hunter's style of climbing (seeing him climb personally routes and boulders for hours) was to static for alot of the of the advanced/semi pro climbing today. His book is probably better for beginner/intermediate. Some of the boulders I climb are easiest when campused for example. Dave mentions in his book at one point the benefits of pogoing off one foot to generate momentum on sloping or really thin holds. Or, using a free hanging leg and swinging it from side to side or up and down to create momentum. I don't recall reading anything like that in SCC or Doug climbing using these techniques himself. Doug was very smooth and static, classic old school top climber.
It's counterproductive to climb that way at say, v10 plus or maybe 5.14 plus.
(This post was edited by flesh on Mar 22, 2012, 5:23 PM)
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jt512
Mar 22, 2012, 5:22 PM
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flesh wrote: It's interesting reading all of your thoughts on this. Jt like usual could be more friendly. It makes me wonder if I inadvertantly learned alot of the SCC technique/training. The first gym I ever had a membership to was Doug Hunter's gym. I bouldered with him a dozen times. He never trained me personally but I regularly climbed with the kids he did train my first few years. Everyone at that gym did 4 x 4's, climbed with straight arms, etc. This was in 1997. I remember reading different books my first few years, how to climb 5.12 , etc. They did nothing for me. Dave Mcleod's book 9 out of 10, is great for intermediate and advanced climbers. IMO, Doug Hunter's style of climbing (seeing him climb personally routes and boulders for hours) was to static for alot of the of the advanced/semi pro climbing today. His book is probably better for beginner/intermediate. Some of the boulders I climb are easiest when campused for example. Dave mentions in his book at one point the benefits of pogoing off one foot to generate momentum on sloping or really thin holds. Or, using a free hanging leg and swinging it from side to side or up and down to create momentum. I don't recall reading anything like that in SCC or Doug climbing using these techniques himself. Doug was very smooth and static, classic old school top climber. It's counterproductive to climb that way at say, v10 plus or maybe 5.14 plus.
I climb with Douglas regularly, and he is not even remotely a static climber.
Jay
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flesh
Mar 23, 2012, 6:23 PM
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Maybe he's changed or maybe we have different tolerances for what static is or isn't.
Here's a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZnWHABLaNs&feature=plcp&context=C482a4a6VDvjVQa1PpcFM5JWqRNZMjDES-lFG2X5QfUrWlhmjzBww%3D
Is this good technique or bad? It was a first try. There were two spanish climbers there and they had been trying it without campusing two of the moves I did. They kept trying to get there feet on the wall with their hands so low that it was a super high step. I thought I should just campus up higher so it's not such a high step.
The more I read this thread, the more I want a coach.
Does anyone know a good coach in the SLC, UT area?
Does it matter whether or not your coach can climb harder than you?
I guess even if they can't climb as hard as you that they likely would have more experience is the discourse on movement, etc. Sometimes, just having someone there keeping me motivated would probably make a big difference.
(This post was edited by flesh on Mar 23, 2012, 6:33 PM)
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wmshub
Mar 23, 2012, 6:39 PM
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You get points for making it up the rock.
Your buddy gets none for holding the video camera sideways the whole time.
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shockabuku
Mar 23, 2012, 8:10 PM
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flesh wrote: Does it matter whether or not your coach can climb harder than you?
That's an excellent question. Probably does if you're a V2 climber and your coach isn't physically handicapped.
Probably doesn't if you're a V10 climber and your coach is a little over the hill.
In other sports most high level coaches don't perform as well as their students. Most of them are significantly past their performance prime but maybe also many of them were never as good an athlete as coach.
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Jooler
Mar 23, 2012, 8:44 PM
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Those who can, do.
Those who can't, coach.
That's what one of the coaches says at a local gym. I believe it is unnecessary for a coach to climb harder than their athletes. A good coach is able to see "flaws" and provide feedback on how to better someones technique/strength and has a large quiver of exercises/drills. That doesn't necessarily mean they ever climbed V hard or 5.impossible!
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ceebo
Mar 24, 2012, 4:24 PM
Post #145 of 151
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flesh wrote: Maybe he's changed or maybe we have different tolerances for what static is or isn't. Here's a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZnWHABLaNs&feature=plcp&context=C482a4a6VDvjVQa1PpcFM5JWqRNZMjDES-lFG2X5QfUrWlhmjzBww%3D Is this good technique or bad? It was a first try. There were two spanish climbers there and they had been trying it without campusing two of the moves I did. They kept trying to get there feet on the wall with their hands so low that it was a super high step. I thought I should just campus up higher so it's not such a high step. The more I read this thread, the more I want a coach. Does anyone know a good coach in the SLC, UT area? Does it matter whether or not your coach can climb harder than you? I guess even if they can't climb as hard as you that they likely would have more experience is the discourse on movement, etc. Sometimes, just having someone there keeping me motivated would probably make a big difference.
Why waste your time/money?. You seem to know how to train, you seem to know what good diet is.
If all you want is a beta monkey, its your cash.
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shotwell
Mar 25, 2012, 3:26 AM
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ceebo wrote: flesh wrote: Maybe he's changed or maybe we have different tolerances for what static is or isn't. Here's a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZnWHABLaNs&feature=plcp&context=C482a4a6VDvjVQa1PpcFM5JWqRNZMjDES-lFG2X5QfUrWlhmjzBww%3D Is this good technique or bad? It was a first try. There were two spanish climbers there and they had been trying it without campusing two of the moves I did. They kept trying to get there feet on the wall with their hands so low that it was a super high step. I thought I should just campus up higher so it's not such a high step. The more I read this thread, the more I want a coach. Does anyone know a good coach in the SLC, UT area? Does it matter whether or not your coach can climb harder than you? I guess even if they can't climb as hard as you that they likely would have more experience is the discourse on movement, etc. Sometimes, just having someone there keeping me motivated would probably make a big difference. Why waste your time/money?. You seem to know how to train, you seem to know what good diet is. If all you want is a beta monkey, its your cash.
Internal feedback is great and all, but sometimes external feedback can be quite helpful. Everyone can gain some insight into some small efficiency mistakes or major movement errors they are making through external feedback. Even for elite climbers, a coach is considered a good investment.
Daniel Woods has a coach, and presumably he knows how to train. Do you really think his 5.14a climbing coach is a beta monkey for him?
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ceebo
Mar 25, 2012, 7:36 AM
Post #147 of 151
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Registered: Nov 9, 2009
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shotwell wrote: ceebo wrote: flesh wrote: Maybe he's changed or maybe we have different tolerances for what static is or isn't. Here's a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZnWHABLaNs&feature=plcp&context=C482a4a6VDvjVQa1PpcFM5JWqRNZMjDES-lFG2X5QfUrWlhmjzBww%3D Is this good technique or bad? It was a first try. There were two spanish climbers there and they had been trying it without campusing two of the moves I did. They kept trying to get there feet on the wall with their hands so low that it was a super high step. I thought I should just campus up higher so it's not such a high step. The more I read this thread, the more I want a coach. Does anyone know a good coach in the SLC, UT area? Does it matter whether or not your coach can climb harder than you? I guess even if they can't climb as hard as you that they likely would have more experience is the discourse on movement, etc. Sometimes, just having someone there keeping me motivated would probably make a big difference. Why waste your time/money?. You seem to know how to train, you seem to know what good diet is. If all you want is a beta monkey, its your cash. Internal feedback is great and all, but sometimes external feedback can be quite helpful. Everyone can gain some insight into some small efficiency mistakes or major movement errors they are making through external feedback. Even for elite climbers, a coach is considered a good investment. Daniel Woods has a coach, and presumably he knows how to train. Do you really think his 5.14a climbing coach is a beta monkey for him?
And that can only be given by someone labeled a coach?.
I understand the benifits of a coach in general for any sport.. but in climbing where we have to know so much more unlike others (i see what would be the irony), do the likes of flesh REALY need one?. Why can a friend not do it?.. what does the coach have that is so unique. I'm not a pro coach but i can watch anybody climb right now and tell you when they make mistakes.. and not just big ones, like to the inch ones.
I say this becuase to the best of my knowledge.. the leading climbers (most of them) got out and climbed. They and their shifting groups coached each other
If i got that wrong then correct me and i will shut up. Otherwise.. its just another pointles trend aimed to charge the avg people for more shit they just don't need.. not REALY need anyway.
Flesh, why don't you try videoing yourself climbing more?.. and spot the mistakes for yourself.
(This post was edited by ceebo on Mar 25, 2012, 7:43 AM)
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shockabuku
Mar 25, 2012, 12:20 PM
Post #148 of 151
(15165 views)
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Registered: May 20, 2006
Posts: 4868
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ceebo wrote: shotwell wrote: ceebo wrote: flesh wrote: Maybe he's changed or maybe we have different tolerances for what static is or isn't. Here's a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZnWHABLaNs&feature=plcp&context=C482a4a6VDvjVQa1PpcFM5JWqRNZMjDES-lFG2X5QfUrWlhmjzBww%3D Is this good technique or bad? It was a first try. There were two spanish climbers there and they had been trying it without campusing two of the moves I did. They kept trying to get there feet on the wall with their hands so low that it was a super high step. I thought I should just campus up higher so it's not such a high step. The more I read this thread, the more I want a coach. Does anyone know a good coach in the SLC, UT area? Does it matter whether or not your coach can climb harder than you? I guess even if they can't climb as hard as you that they likely would have more experience is the discourse on movement, etc. Sometimes, just having someone there keeping me motivated would probably make a big difference. Why waste your time/money?. You seem to know how to train, you seem to know what good diet is. If all you want is a beta monkey, its your cash. Internal feedback is great and all, but sometimes external feedback can be quite helpful. Everyone can gain some insight into some small efficiency mistakes or major movement errors they are making through external feedback. Even for elite climbers, a coach is considered a good investment. Daniel Woods has a coach, and presumably he knows how to train. Do you really think his 5.14a climbing coach is a beta monkey for him? And that can only be given by someone labeled a coach?. I understand the benifits of a coach in general for any sport.. but in climbing where we have to know so much more unlike others (i see what would be the irony), do the likes of flesh REALY need one?. Why can a friend not do it?.. what does the coach have that is so unique. I'm not a pro coach but i can watch anybody climb right now and tell you when they make mistakes.. and not just big ones, like to the inch ones. I say this becuase to the best of my knowledge.. the leading climbers (most of them) got out and climbed. They and their shifting groups coached each other If i got that wrong then correct me and i will shut up. Otherwise.. its just another pointles trend aimed to charge the avg people for more shit they just don't need.. not REALY need anyway. Flesh, why don't you try videoing yourself climbing more?.. and spot the mistakes for yourself.
I think that at least in the US you got that wrong. A significant number of the current top US climbers developed their skills under the tutlage of a coach while competing at the youth level.
What does a good coach offer? Not just the ability to see your individual mistakes, but the understanding of your general weaknesses and the body of knowledge to implement successful, and efficient, methods to improve those weaknesses.
Also, for competitive climbers coaches offer insights into competition strategies which are learned over time and which a younger, less experienced climber probably won't have learned.
Coaches should also have experience and knowledge in physiology that competitors may not.
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shotwell
Mar 25, 2012, 1:54 PM
Post #149 of 151
(15153 views)
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Registered: Jan 6, 2009
Posts: 366
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ceebo wrote: shotwell wrote: ceebo wrote: flesh wrote: Maybe he's changed or maybe we have different tolerances for what static is or isn't. Here's a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZnWHABLaNs&feature=plcp&context=C482a4a6VDvjVQa1PpcFM5JWqRNZMjDES-lFG2X5QfUrWlhmjzBww%3D Is this good technique or bad? It was a first try. There were two spanish climbers there and they had been trying it without campusing two of the moves I did. They kept trying to get there feet on the wall with their hands so low that it was a super high step. I thought I should just campus up higher so it's not such a high step. The more I read this thread, the more I want a coach. Does anyone know a good coach in the SLC, UT area? Does it matter whether or not your coach can climb harder than you? I guess even if they can't climb as hard as you that they likely would have more experience is the discourse on movement, etc. Sometimes, just having someone there keeping me motivated would probably make a big difference. Why waste your time/money?. You seem to know how to train, you seem to know what good diet is. If all you want is a beta monkey, its your cash. Internal feedback is great and all, but sometimes external feedback can be quite helpful. Everyone can gain some insight into some small efficiency mistakes or major movement errors they are making through external feedback. Even for elite climbers, a coach is considered a good investment. Daniel Woods has a coach, and presumably he knows how to train. Do you really think his 5.14a climbing coach is a beta monkey for him? And that can only be given by someone labeled a coach?. I understand the benifits of a coach in general for any sport.. but in climbing where we have to know so much more unlike others (i see what would be the irony), do the likes of flesh REALY need one?. Why can a friend not do it?.. what does the coach have that is so unique. I'm not a pro coach but i can watch anybody climb right now and tell you when they make mistakes.. and not just big ones, like to the inch ones. I say this becuase to the best of my knowledge.. the leading climbers (most of them) got out and climbed. They and their shifting groups coached each other If i got that wrong then correct me and i will shut up. Otherwise.. its just another pointles trend aimed to charge the avg people for more shit they just don't need.. not REALY need anyway. Flesh, why don't you try videoing yourself climbing more?.. and spot the mistakes for yourself.
I pointed out in the post you quoted that Woods has a coach. Jimmie Redo.
I didn't say it had to be someone 'labeled' a coach either. My wife is my coach, for example. I'm just suggesting that having someone dedicated to giving you feedback is a good thing. If you don't have someone that is giving you the quality feedback you're looking for then paying a coach is a good option.
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