What's a "figure 8 loop"?

Hello All

I have just been on a lead climbing course and the intructor said to belay off a figue 8 loop rather than the belay loop of the harness. In every book and video I have seen everyone seems to belay straight off their harness belay loop is there any advantage to belaying off a figure 8?

Thanks
James

What's a "figure 8 loop"?

Hello All

I have just been on a lead climbing course and the intructor said to belay off a figue 8 loop rather than the belay loop of the harness. In every book and video I have seen everyone seems to belay straight off their harness belay loop is there any advantage to belaying off a figure 8?

Thanks
James

Just a guess here, but probably the loop a tie-in knot creates.

Oddly enough, I rarely seem to have one of those when I belay.

Jay

I did ask why and he said there were three advantages which were:

1) The belay loop is static and by belaying off a figure 8 you got the advantage of the dynamic loop.

2) You could apparntly untie yourself in the even of an emergency.

3) So you dont belay past the end of the rope

Still seems a bit wierd to me,

2) You could apparntly untie yourself in the even of an emergency.

The idea is to transmit the load directly to the anchor via the tie-in, rather than subject the harness to various opposing pulls and the belayer to unanticipated twists.
...

-see for example, the article on the subject at http://www.ukclimbing.com/...les/page.php?id=1129, which also has pictures to clear up any possible confusion here about what is meant.

[Rant] No offense to the OP intended but this perfectly illustrates the disadvantage of not keeping classes like this "simple, stupid".

If you teach a technique that is only useful, or even applicable, in a narrow range of circumstances and has advantages which the students lack the experience or knowledge base to even understand, let alone employ in a real world scenario, you end up with confused students using techniques they don't understand.[/Rant]

There is no reason for the belayer to be tied in while single pitch climbing. You will just trip on the rope, bust your ass and pull your climber off the wall.

While on a multi-pitch route I will often clip both my belay loop and rope loop. That is a personal choice based on typical anchor construction. Using one or the other by itself is fine and can be more or less advantageous depending on individual anchor construction. Until you have enough experience to understand the differences, it's probably best to just "KISS" and use the belay loop.

Hello All

I have just been on a lead climbing course and the intructor said to belay off a figue 8 loop rather than the belay loop of the harness. In every book and video I have seen everyone seems to belay straight off their harness belay loop is there any advantage to belaying off a figure 8?

Thanks
James

I did ask why and he said there were three advantages which were:

1) The belay loop is static and by belaying off a figure 8 you got the advantage of the dynamic loop.

[Rant]
Using one or the other by itself is fine and can be more or less advantageous depending on individual anchor construction.

Rubbish, the rope loop has been used for decades with no problems whatsoever, to quote Jack Geldard who wrote the UKC article linked above (and who is an extremely copetent and experienced climber "This 'rope loop' is extremely strong and is perfectly adequate for belaying from."
The circumstances between what you are talking about and belaying are different as the load comes on the strand to the belay and the rope loop is never ring loaded.

[Rant] No offense to the OP intended but this perfectly illustrates the disadvantage of not keeping classes like this "simple, stupid".

If you teach a technique that is only useful, or even applicable, in a narrow range of circumstances and has advantages which the students lack the experience or knowledge base to even understand, let alone employ in a real world scenario, you end up with confused students using techniques they don't understand.[/Rant]

There is no reason for the belayer to be tied in while single pitch climbing. You will just trip on the rope, bust your ass and pull your climber off the wall.

While on a multi-pitch route I will often clip both my belay loop and rope loop. That is a personal choice based on typical anchor construction. Using one or the other by itself is fine and can be more or less advantageous depending on individual anchor construction. Until you have enough experience to understand the differences, it's probably best to just "KISS" and use the belay loop.

Whenever I am tied to an anchor, I always clip the belay device to the "figure-8 loop," which is to say the loop of rope which is the part of your tie-in knot that threads through the harness. The idea is to transmit the load directly to the anchor via the tie-in, rather than subject the harness to various opposing pulls and the belayer to unanticipted twists.

(Since I use double ropes, the device is clipped to both tie-in loops, which happen to be bowlines, not figure-eights.)

I learned the idea many years ago from BD engineer Chris Harmston, whose posts to rec.climbing contained some of the most informed opinions I've read anywhere.

The idea seems strange to people in this country, but it is fairly common in the UK---see for example, the article on the subject at http://www.ukclimbing.com/...les/page.php?id=1129, which also has pictures to clear up any possible confusion here about what is meant.

OP, did the leader top belay you after he reached the top or something?.. it could make more sence.

Or was the guy simply giving you info on how people do things in a situation you did not realy need to know about their and then?.

Thank you for all your replies, it sounds like this technique is quite normal in the UK (where I am from). However as I am new to leading and currently only lead climb indoors I might stick to the belay loop.

Rubbish, the rope loop has been used for decades with no problems whatsoever, to quote Jack Geldard who wrote the UKC article linked above (and who is an extremely copetent and experienced climber "This 'rope loop' is extremely strong and is perfectly adequate for belaying from."
The circumstances between what you are talking about and belaying are different as the load comes on the strand to the belay and the rope loop is never ring loaded.

That assumes you are tied into the belay with the rope on a multipitch route. That's not what I was referring to. I was referring to simply using the rope loop in place of the belay loop in a general scene. If you are tied into the belay with slings...

One concept everyone here seems to be missing or unaware of is that using the tie in loop to belay off of is very dangerous in the case of using a "Yosemite finish". Apparently the roll over threshold is vastly reduced and because of the orientation of the free end back through the knot, it will fail on the first roll. A climbing mag (Gripped or Climbing, I don't remember) did some tests and warned against the Yosemite Finish for this purpose.

Sticking to the belay loop isn't going to hurt. Plus, the reasons you were given for the rope loop are all bogus and are, if I recall, debunked in the article on the UKC site I linked above.

I think the rope loop belay is superior in two situations. (1) Belaying the second from above from the harness, and (2) catching a factor-2 leader fall. Both of these are multi-pitch situations (one of which most climbers never experience) so you don't have to think about the issue until you're more experienced.

On a more estoteric note, the potential for rolling a "cross loaded" figure-8, I forgot to mention that, since the loads are coming on a loop, the knot itself is only getting half the impact force.

Moyer's tests suggest that a well-tied figure-8 can roll at 750 lbf, which would mean the rope loop would need a rather hefty 1500 lbf for rolling to occur. At that level, there is no doubt that the belayer is going to be yanked hard against the anchor, in which case tension on the anchor strand will, I think, make rolling impossible. This is, of course, doubly hypothetical in the presence of a back-up knot on the figure-8.

So all in all, there's really nothing to worry about.

On a side note. Using the tie in loops to belay off of is a less than great ideal. It rotates the belay device 90* and would cause a gri gri, cinch or smart to behave weirdly. An "atc" style device is less effected, but why????? Your 25 Kn belay loop Isn't going to fail. And if your worried it might, it's probably cus your harness is tattered and old, buy a new one dirtbag .

The tie in loop (of rope) should be in a plane essentially parallel to the belay loop but to one side of it. It should not do anything different to your belay device than the belay loop does in regard to orientation.

He's talking about the tie in loops on the harness

Correct.

As Jim says, a rethreaded bowline on a bight is better than a figure-8 anyway, but convention being what it is, it seems unlikely that anything more than a fringe group of cognescenti will adopt that knot.

As Jim says, a rethreaded bowline on a bight is better than a figure-8 anyway, but convention being what it is, it seems unlikely that anything more than a fringe group of cognescenti will adopt that knot.

I guess that's why it said "side note", huh?

This brings up why it is important to clip your belay device into
both your belay loop and the loop of the rope on multi pitch climbs. The
lead rope should be your primary anchor - your primary link from your
harness to the anchor - because it is dynamic and flexible. Your belay
biner should connect directly to the rope tie in loop so that the forces
of the belay can link directly to the anchor. Otherwise, the forces from
a severe fall would run from your belay biner to the belay loop,
to the harness, to the rope loop to the anchor. This would tend to rip
the harness apart and the results are very unpredictable. It is much
better to have the forces transfer as directly as possible to the strong
point in the system - your fully equalized, three bomber pieces anchor.

[IMG]http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/3518/pict0059bg.jpg[/IMG]





[IMG]http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/3194/screenhunter01mar212336.jpg[/IMG]

For what it's worth, here is a worst-case scenario argument for clipping into both the rope loop and the belay loop. It is an excerpt from a short piece written back in the 1990s by Tom Jones (a harness deisgner for Black Diamond at that time).


The entire post can be found here: http://groups.google.com/...ce&output=gplain

just belay off anchor and you are done.

Quoted for posterity .... If you actually climbed enough youd know that direct belays off the anchors arent always the most pratical or best choice in certain situations

Just noticed this, WTF????

Over built top belay with a grigri with an OMG!!!!111!!1!1! un locked locking biner!!!!! And not even sure what Majid is trying to show in the second picture.

this also means that yr tie in should be very tight i should think ...

[I can't] remember anyone [clipping their belay device into] both the belay and rope loops ... all the "pro" climbers and guides [I've] seen just go though the belay loop generally ...

blah blah blah and sure, if you are building chicken sh*t anchor made of two loose pieces like 75% of the climbers out there, I would not trust a 10lbs haul bag to be belay from of it but if you have a solid anchor, I see no reason why people should belay off their belay loop.

not to forget that belay off harness keeps the belayer tie-down and in case emergency where belayer needs to escape belay ( again 75% do not know how to do it), belaying off harness is not the best choice in many situations as people think.

No, it doesn't matter how big the loop is.

75% you say...

just belay off anchor and you are done.

Some climbers have progressed from top-roping to leading.

Here's the link

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...=2538384;page=unread

r.c

Just heading back to the original topic a bit (shock horror), but there is nothing wrong with the gym teaching new lead belayers to tie in to the other end of the rope. It ingrains a good habit early on.

Once the newbs have done a bit more leading, they'll realise that they can skip that part for single pitch climbing less than half a rope length, but before that, it means that 1) it is impossible for them to lower their partner off the end of the rope, and 2) get the leader into a good habit of being able to check the belayers tie in. Checking the seconds tie in is always a good habit to be in for multi pitch climbs.
So while it is slow and tedious for a regular sport climber to be thinking about having a second who ties in, it's a case of teaching safest practice, and letting the students figure out the shortcuts themselves, when their understanding is better.

As for the current discussion regarding belaying off a tie-in loop, I had it recommended by a mountaineering guide a few years ago. His argument was not as sound as rgolds (saves weird twisting forces on the harness), but this guide reckons belay off the tie in loop, and tie in with a pretty big loop, as it declutters the belay loop and tie in points which may have daisy chains on, and will likely be partially obscured by layers of clothing and possibly a pack waistbelt. He argued that between cold, gloved hands and the clutter, keeping the belay device a bit further out makes rope management easier.