I suppose climbing will one day be like gymnastics and the best climbers will be pre-pubescent girls. But I'm kind of sick of the obsession with how good children are. Yeah sure, I'm old have some jealousy issues, but I also have a point I think. I don't find children climbers interesting to watch. It's boring. It's impressive but not beautiful. They don't weigh anything, they seem to exert no effort, they don't struggle, and they have not yet developed personality or style. I am much more impressed when I see a 40-year-old dude who's been working for a week on a V5 and finally sends it. He's sweating, he's screaming, he's got a job and kids and can only climb once a week. He's got some extra pounds so he's got to figure out how to haul that big body up the wall. Am I the only one that finds that guy more deserving of praise? Or on a higher level, I'd much rather watch Fred Nicole than the latest wunderkid. The kid floats up the wall, but it's boring. I find the same thing is true with musicians, dancers, tennis players, whatever. I don't want to watch a 12-year-old piano prodigy play all the notes perfectly. I want to watch the guy who's lived and brings his life experience and might not hit all the notes but the result is more moving. I guess I'm just not into the prodigy thing. Don't get me wrong, it's very impressive, but I don't find it as interesting. Maybe I'm thinking of climbing as an art instead of a sport. And I'm an old fuddy duddy who doesn't want to see climbing turn into such a competitive, number-chasing sport and lose its rebellious origins. The obsession with youth is a symptom of which way the sport is heading I guess. We're obsessed with numbers, both age and grade. Next time I'm at the crag I want to talk about how my buddy conquered that rock over there rather than how a 13-year-old climbed a V13.

I suppose climbing will one day be like gymnastics and the best climbers will be pre-pubescent girls. But I'm kind of sick of the obsession with how good children are. Yeah sure, I'm old have some jealousy issues, but I also have a point I think. I don't find children climbers interesting to watch. It's boring. It's impressive but not beautiful. They don't weigh anything, they seem to exert no effort, they don't struggle, and they have not yet developed personality or style. I am much more impressed when I see a 40-year-old dude who's been working for a week on a V5 and finally sends it. He's sweating, he's screaming, he's got a job and kids and can only climb once a week. He's got some extra pounds so he's got to figure out how to haul that big body up the wall. Am I the only one that finds that guy more deserving of praise? Or on a higher level, I'd much rather watch Fred Nicole than the latest wunderkid. The kid floats up the wall, but it's boring. I find the same thing is true with musicians, dancers, tennis players, whatever. I don't want to watch a 12-year-old piano prodigy play all the notes perfectly. I want to watch the guy who's lived and brings his life experience and might not hit all the notes but the result is more moving. I guess I'm just not into the prodigy thing. Don't get me wrong, it's very impressive, but I don't find it as interesting. Maybe I'm thinking of climbing as an art instead of a sport. And I'm an old fuddy duddy who doesn't want to see climbing turn into such a competitive, number-chasing sport and lose its rebellious origins. The obsession with youth is a symptom of which way the sport is heading I guess. We're obsessed with numbers, both age and grade. Next time I'm at the crag I want to talk about how my buddy conquered that rock over there rather than how a 13-year-old climbed a V13.

And I'm an old fuddy duddy who doesn't want to see climbing turn into such a competitive, number-chasing sport and lose its rebellious origins.

I don't want to watch a 12-year-old piano prodigy play all the notes perfectly. I want to watch the guy who's lived and brings his life experience and might not hit all the notes but the result is more moving. I guess I'm just not into the prodigy thing.

I love kids--if they're properly cooked.

But

But ...

But my climbing partner is a pre-pubescent girl.

personally, as a 19 year old climber, when i am at the crag i dont care about the details of people really. i dont care if they are young or old, tall or short, fat or skinny, local or a tourist, or gay or straight. if they are having fun and are putting all they've got into sending a route and are respectful to others, then they are cool in my book. sure some people are more impressive to watch than others, but oh well. if you dont like watching them then pay attention to your belay and watch your climber lol.

i do have to say though. i am jealous of those awesome 12 year olds. it just makes me wonder why i started so late.

There's your problem. If you stop thinking like its sometime before 1981, you might find the new set of wunderkids less offensive to your concept of how climbing should be.

The only remnant of the climbers-as-rebels phenomenon is jack-asses with trust-funds poaching campsites because they think that somehow makes them akin to Yvon Chouinard and Fred Beckey.

akin to surfing and all the recent above-the-lip (airs) fixation. not impressive if they can't lay down a good rail too. tricks are for kids.

Before I had kids, I was bored to tears any time that they showed up, in conversation or in real life.

Ever since having my own kids, I find all children, and what they do, incredibly interesting.

So I can empathize with the OP who is sick of seeing videos of kids doing amazing climbs. But I hope the OP can understand that some of us love to see those, and it would be a shame if they went away.

wow butthurts is strong with that one.

guess what, those kids are stronger than you, try harder than you, train longer than you, and DON'T GIVE A FUCK what you do.

do you get pissed off at 16yr old Dominican kids that can throw 90?

There are elite athletes in all sports. you are not one of them, get over it.

Why does admiring celebrities who are thin and beautiful negate the overweight ugly ones. We agree to value one and not the other. It doesn't have to happen, but it does.

I love kids. I'm around them a lot. Like I tried to to say, I'm not taking anything away from their achievements, but I think turning kids into celebrities is not a great thing. We can be proud of them, and encourage them, without hyping them way up and making how good they are as climbers the most important thing about them. What's wrong with letting them climb and then if they're still around in 10 years, then put them on the cover of a magazine?

Disparaging? Hardly. I climb at the same gym as Ashima. I encourage the hell out of her. I cheer her on and congratulate her amazingness. I just feel conflicted about it. I also feel conflicted that this 65+ year old man who shows up every day doesn't get congratulated for his awesomeness. Do you understand what I'm saying?

lena_chita

Again, I'm not mad at kids, and I love that they're so good. I just don't think it's a great idea to praise them and make them celebrities. The 16 year old Dominican would be better served by not being put on the cover of Sports Illustrated. Lionize the oder people who have been through some shit and can handle the attention.

I guess I'll just try to come to turns with growing old and being mediocre

The 16 year old Dominican would be better served by not being put on the cover of Sports Illustrated.

Man i cant wait till im 40 if i would have the time to climb once a week. Im lucky to get out 2-3 times a month.

Doesn't look good.
At 46, I'm lucky to get 2-3 times a season. I think the OP overstated the frequency.

Sweet. I acknowledge that I'm nostalgic, and you agree with me. I think the "sport" was better before it got popular.

I don't find wunderkids offensive, just annoying.

Again, I'm not mad at kids, and I love that they're so good. I just don't think it's a great idea to praise them and make them celebrities. The 16 year old Dominican would be better served by not being put on the cover of Sports Illustrated. Lionize the oder people who have been through some shit and can handle the attention.

Make better luck.

I was originally going to make fun of your complaining post, but I totally agree with the quoted section. Kid climbers and kid music prodigies lack depth. We just need to be comfortable in the fact that they are technically much better than us.

This thread has convinced me: I'm sick of adults.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

This thread has convinced me: I'm sick of adults.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

Yea, i climb with the climbing team kids at the gym when i am there. they are always psyched and super fun to climb with. Some climb harder than i do even at 12-15yrs old and a good source of beta and alternate ways of doing problems.

The team kids at your gym must suck if they only climb v2.

they climb harder than that and so do I.

a few just went to Junior nationals in Coloradiego.

I suppose climbing will one day be like gymnastics and the best climbers will be pre-pubescent girls. But I'm kind of sick of the obsession with how good children are. Yeah sure, I'm old have some jealousy issues, but I also have a point I think. I don't find children climbers interesting to watch. It's boring. It's impressive but not beautiful. They don't weigh anything, they seem to exert no effort, they don't struggle, and they have not yet developed personality or style. I am much more impressed when I see a 40-year-old dude who's been working for a week on a V5 and finally sends it. He's sweating, he's screaming, he's got a job and kids and can only climb once a week. He's got some extra pounds so he's got to figure out how to haul that big body up the wall. Am I the only one that finds that guy more deserving of praise? Or on a higher level, I'd much rather watch Fred Nicole than the latest wunderkid. The kid floats up the wall, but it's boring. I find the same thing is true with musicians, dancers, tennis players, whatever. I don't want to watch a 12-year-old piano prodigy play all the notes perfectly. I want to watch the guy who's lived and brings his life experience and might not hit all the notes but the result is more moving. I guess I'm just not into the prodigy thing. Don't get me wrong, it's very impressive, but I don't find it as interesting. Maybe I'm thinking of climbing as an art instead of a sport. And I'm an old fuddy duddy who doesn't want to see climbing turn into such a competitive, number-chasing sport and lose its rebellious origins. The obsession with youth is a symptom of which way the sport is heading I guess. We're obsessed with numbers, both age and grade. Next time I'm at the crag I want to talk about how my buddy conquered that rock over there rather than how a 13-year-old climbed a V13.

Everyone is in title to their opinion, but you know what they say about "opinions". I just made this film http://vimeo.com/38595574, about a 12 year old sending 13d. The truth is that you completely represent the "new internet sprayer", who voices extremely strong opinions, but hinds behind some anonymous avatar. My next project is actually about people like yourself, so I will give you a chance to put your face in front of the camera and spray then. You can contact me via pm, I will show up and film you and see how brave you are, when we add your face to the strong opinions you post.
Robert Rogoz (aka Polishbob)

Some guy sending V5 is not impressive. a 12 year old sending V10/13+ is

Nah, that's wrong. A person can admire whomever they want. And I happen to agree personally with the OP. It's impressive to him, and to me, and to a lot of other people.

BUT if someone starts a thread about it on RC.com, then they shouldn't be surprised when they get a slew of negative responses.

Disparaging? Hardly. I climb at the same gym as Ashima. I encourage the hell out of her. I cheer her on and congratulate her amazingness. I just feel conflicted about it. I also feel conflicted that this 65+ year old man who shows up every day doesn't get congratulated for his awesomeness. Do you understand what I'm saying?

I agree with the op. The mags need to give as much props to 50 the year olds that do v12 as a kids. Kids repair quickly and weigh nothing.the sport is quickly moving towards glorifying anorexic, stressed out girls, just like gymnastics.

the people you mention aren't children; they went through puberty.

I started climbing when I was 28. I was a pretty natural climber, and it's in my blood, I just didn't happen to stumble into it until then.

I'm aware of the fact that since I started so late I'll never reach the potential I might have if I'd started when I was younger. But I'm fine with that. And part of what makes me so okay about that is something that I think the OP is trying to voice.

If I were a kid and I started now, and were pretty good at it, climbing would be all about gym climbing, comps, and numbers. That's not how I see climbing, and, personally, I'm very grateful I don't have that perspective.

Perhaps the OP feels similarly, but, unlike me, projects his feelings onto the sport in general. I make no claims about what might be best for Akima, or anyone else.

I admit, though, I do kinda wish the climbing world was not quite as it is. If I were to have a kid, and they had the natural talent and interest to be really good at climbing, I would feel like a shithead to keep them out of the circuit, where, no doubt, all their friends would be. Yeah, I could never do that. I guess I'd just have to subtly do my best to introduce the idea that climbing means more than that, also.

Hmm... I dunno.

GO

You describe climbing like it is some horrid 9 till 5.

More on topic. For kids to stay focused on one thing for the duration in this age of computer power and liberal upbringings is worth credit in itself.

Quoted for psoterity and to warm the misguided.

And again.

Damn Posterity.

So I have a kid who started climbing at 14. She joined a team, got really involved, started competing and did very well. We climbed all over the local couple of states where we lived (outside) and I even got her to go trad climbing with me at Eldo once. Then she finished high school, went to college in an area with, at best, a mediocre gym and very little sport climbing in the region. Now she's learning to trad climb and is captain of her school's climbing team.

If they enjoy it, really, truly, all the rest will follow.

If not, they were just dabbling, regardless of how successfully, and that's probably okay.

Kids take time to grow into things.

That's a nice story to hear. Still, in college and after college, your daughter may broaden her horizons, or maybe not. And is she typical, or more the exception?

I think if I were a kid growing up these days and I were in the comp climbing circuit, I'd be all into it... until I burnt out. And then I'd be left with all the negative associations of however it ended. I'm not sure how I'd find the space to let in the rest of what climbing means.

I mean, I did gymnastics when I was a kid. I could probably still press up from sitting into a handstand (though I'd pay for it later lol) - but gymnastics is in no way part of my life now. For most kids now, is that what climbing will become?

GO

It's hard to say but here's what I know.

Girls seem to peak in their participation around 15 years of age then drop off after that, boys seem to last a little longer with (probably) lower drop out rates.

Unlike most sports, you can continue in climbing without organized teams, leagues, etc., well into adulthood. Although organized teams are now springing up in most colleges and USA Climbing supports a competitive collegiate climbing series. The college teams seem like an interesting social function for previous youth competitive climbers to interact with peers who may run the gamut from non-climbers just starting out to people who view comp climbing as antithetical to their climbing ideals. It's an interesting mixing pot (though I admit I've only seen two of them at this point).

Is my daughter unique in her experience? Probably not. I was just out in Clear Creek the other week and ran into two kids (~14 yrs) from the BRC team walking up the road with one of their father's who did the driving and some of the belaying. They're out there, not all of them, but they are.

When my youngest went from soccer to climbing she said something to the effect of 'You know what I like about climbing? Everyone is encouraging and there's not the petty bitchiness that you have in many other sports.' I guess the other issue is that most coaches don't drive the competitive atmosphere like you see in a lot of other sports. It's really up to the kid to decide how competitive they want to be. My son has been on the same team that my daughters have been for the last few years (two different teams) and he doesn't compete. He just goes to be a better climber and have fun. They don't necessarily view climbing the way you and I do, yet, but some of it gets in.

That's a nice story to hear. Still, in college and after college, your daughter may broaden her horizons, or maybe not. And is she typical, or more the exception?

I think if I were a kid growing up these days and I were in the comp climbing circuit, I'd be all into it... until I burnt out. And then I'd be left with all the negative associations of however it ended. I'm not sure how I'd find the space to let in the rest of what climbing means.

I mean, I did gymnastics when I was a kid. I could probably still press up from sitting into a handstand (though I'd pay for it later lol) - but gymnastics is in no way part of my life now. For most kids now, is that what climbing will become?

GO

That's a nice story to hear. Still, in college and after college, your daughter may broaden her horizons, or maybe not. And is she typical, or more the exception?

I think if I were a kid growing up these days and I were in the comp climbing circuit, I'd be all into it... until I burnt out. And then I'd be left with all the negative associations of however it ended. I'm not sure how I'd find the space to let in the rest of what climbing means.

I mean, I did gymnastics when I was a kid. I could probably still press up from sitting into a handstand (though I'd pay for it later lol) - but gymnastics is in no way part of my life now. For most kids now, is that what climbing will become?

GO

Today she is a teacher of math, and for the last three years she has coached a team that she founded at her local gym in CT. She is also Regional Coordinator for USA Climbing's New England west division (shockabuku may know her from this?) and was co-Head Judge at last months Adult Nationals.

I don't know her personally, but have seen her kicking off a bunch of comps this last year. I got the impression she coaches at Carabiners but didn't know she was a math teacher.

To those young ones who excel despite having tiny reach, homework, and all other outside distractions, I applaud them for what they are right now, regardless of age. The same goes for one of my 28 year old partners who has only lead a couple of 5.9's. Personal accomplishments of any number are always exciting to watch and support.

Yes, she coaches at Carabiners in Fairfield and teaches middle school math in the hell hole that is Bridgeport.

She just took a job teaching at the Denver School of Science and Technology, and USA Climbing wants her to co-RC for the Colorado region next year. She was offered the Head Judge position at Nationals in Atlanta, but had to turn it down so she could move out to Denver.

I saw pics of Zeb leading ice this winter.

Yeah I was thinking of describing Zeb's experiences - they do fit into the context here. You could argue that he is a product of the junior comp circuit - he certainly did well at it (making the finals in the 18-19 category in his 3rd world's may still be the best any US boy has done in that category- not sure) - but he always was more of an all round climber IMO. He burnt out of comps after that for sure and discovered math. Finally started focusing on academics which ultimately paid off with the PHD program he is in at Dartmouth now. Still loves climbing and hates training. Did the Salathe with his girlfriend last September, did some hard ice this winter, still climbs 13's semi off the couch etc. seems to have a good balance - although it is just as nerve racking as a parent at times - although usually I don't know until after the fact. Like the time last August when he called me at work at 1AM.

Z - I'm at Cannon
me - Seems like its a nice day - what are you going to do?
Z - actually I just got back to the car - I soloed WG, MG and Lakeview car to car in < 4 hours.
me - oh.

So be careful what you wish for.

damn you sound miserable.

"I suppose writing is like Alzheimer's. There comes a point where you think the communication skills are there but with age all the observer sees is a lack of structure and coherence... and then no-one really cares to follow the rest of what is being said."

What the hell are you trying to say? You're critiquing my structure and coherence? Not the point I'm making? Good debate skills.

Disparaging? Hardly. I climb at the same gym as Ashima. I encourage the hell out of her. I cheer her on and congratulate her amazingness. I just feel conflicted about it. I also feel conflicted that this 65+ year old man who shows up every day doesn't get congratulated for his awesomeness. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Everyone is in title to their opinion, but you know what they say about "opinions". I just made this film http://vimeo.com/38595574, about a 12 year old sending 13d. The truth is that you completely represent the "new internet sprayer", who voices extremely strong opinions, but hinds behind some anonymous avatar. My next project is actually about people like yourself, so I will give you a chance to put your face in front of the camera and spray then. You can contact me via pm, I will show up and film you and see how brave you are, when we add your face to the strong opinions you post.
Robert Rogoz (aka Polishbob)

Very few of them exhibit any signs of anorexia or undue stress.

I admit, though, I do kinda wish the climbing world was not quite as it is. If I were to have a kid, and they had the natural talent and interest to be really good at climbing, I would feel like a shithead to keep them out of the circuit, where, no doubt, all their friends would be. Yeah, I could never do that. I guess I'd just have to subtly do my best to introduce the idea that climbing means more than that, also.

Hmm... I dunno.

GO

Cool.

Please please please don't let climbing become an Olympic sport!

GO

I would rather see climbing not become an extinct sport like flatland Freestyle biking has become.

If there is no publicity, then there is no money.

If there is no money then there will not be any sponsors or equipment.

If there are no sponsors or equipment, then it really isn't a sport. It is a hobby that won't last long.

Hahaha! Yeah right.

Look, you're into the whole gym scene, and even that mostly in relation to kids. Do you even climb? Hey, there's nothing wrong with that, but please don't take your extremely limited understanding of what climbing is and pretend you're an authority to define it for the rest of us.

GO

I would rather see climbing not become an extinct sport like flatland Freestyle biking has become.

Let me repeat back to you what you said:


That is not taken out of context. That was the start of your post. You went on to detail how "climbing" could die.

If you are concerned about the longevity of indoor gym climbing, A - you should say so, and B - that's even more laughable! Climbing gyms are doing just fine.

Cheers,

GO

Similarly, distance running was never a popular nor successful sport until the invention of the treadmill.

Competitive indoor climbing is a lot like competitive weight lifting: fascinating for practitioners and a few oddballs, utterly boring for everyone else.

Climbing walls are becoming more and more common in well-off high schools, and are an old standby at summer camps, church camps, and major urban areas. Climbing walls, and competitive climbing, has existed for nearly 30 years. Its not going away any time soon, and it certainly doesn't need to be in the Olympics to survive, especially since climbing is a lot like golf: better when not too competitive.

What really concerns me is that it is getting harder and harder to get gyms to commit to having a local comp for the sport(SCS) climbing seasons. They can easily make more money by having a few birthday parties instead of paying a lot to hold a comp.

All I am saying is that indoor competitive climbing is not a given. It is very expensive and it will not last forever without the sponsors, kids, and eventually the Olympics.

You obviously couldn't care less about indoor climbing. That is fine. However, you claim that I am speaking about a sport I have no idea about and yet you talk about indoor climbing like you know everything about it.

When you have volunteered your time to belay at these comps, worked just to get the gyms to sign-up, kept score for the comps, and cheered on a competitor just because you wanted to see them do well then you can talk about indoor climbing. Until you do those things I doubt you know anything about them except for what you have seen in the videos.

Similarly, distance running was never a popular nor successful sport until the invention of the treadmill.

Competitive indoor climbing is a lot like competitive weight lifting: fascinating for practitioners and a few oddballs, utterly boring for everyone else.

Is distance running really that popular today? I run marathons and I never thought of it as a “popular” sport. They don’t even televise the Boston anymore. In fact the New York marathon is the only nationally televised marathon that I know of now.

Wait a minute... if lots of people run, but not on TV, does that mean it's not popular? Consumerist culture does not define popularity. Whether or not someone has figured out a way to package and sell something does not define whether or not people actually inherently like it.

GO

<snip> the sport of climbing as practiced in a competition are completely unrelated to each other.

There is no way of knowing how everyone defines the word popular so I just used my own definition. I measured popularity by television viewers as opposed to participants because television programs can draw in the millions where race participants are usually in the tens of thousands.

If a sport has millions of viewers(Super Bowl, World Series, World Cup) I would say it is popular. When a sport(The Boston) can’t even draw enough viewers to justify showing it on an off channel(Versus) on an “off day”(Patriots day) then I don’t really consider it to be very popular.