I think it is far more likely he didn't tie any knot---threaded the rope through his harness, got distracted, set off without tying any knot, and the rope stayed lodged in the harness until it was loaded.

Moving to a new continent and climbing in the gym a lot has lead me to many new partners. Checking our harnesses and knots is something that I will not stop doing, but I've been surprised at how many people just set off (on the first route of the day) without even glancing at my harness or their knot.

Eman,

You already know this, but tt should be noted that disallowing a climber to tie in with his usual tie-in knot could be even more dangerous than just allowing bowlines. If you get someone in your gym who has been using a bowline for X amount of years and all of the sudden you are making them use a different knot - well, that is just asking for a mistake.

I also lead on a retraced bowline sometimes and always use a double bowline (two coils, not retraced) when lowering off of single pitch routes. Unless the guy was using a very stiff rope, my bet is that he either tied the knot incorrectly, didn't finish it or didn't even start it. None of those mistakes would be prevented by the use of a fix-8.

FWIW, most people I see use a double bowline, and don't even know how to tie a retraced bowline. From your first post, it seems that currently you ONLY allow people to use a retraced bowline and not a regular/double. Or is this one of the options you are going to move to? Do you find that people have a harder time learning the retrace Or that less people know it to begin with?

I personally don't think I'd like the double bowline to be my primary lead knot, but I can't see a retraced bowline coming untied, with or w/o a stopper knot.

It's sad but just tie a flippin' figure eight you cant go wrong with it.

A figure eight follow through can be messed up. I have personally stopped a climber who got distracted tying in and had simply pulled the tail through his tie in loops.

But, when the figure eight is tied correctly it's fail safe. The bowline in this case just failed completely.

My staff, myself, and we sometime recruit our members to purposely tie-in wrong when we want to remind people to double check knots. We do the same on the belay end of the rope.


Eman

But, when the figure eight is tied correctly it's fail safe. The bowline in this case just failed completely.

But, when the figure eight is tied correctly it's fail safe. The bowline in this case just failed completely.

Say CBBLAK gang, every time you start a pitch, lower someone, get lowered or rappel. It WILL save your ASS.
Check Buckels, Belay, Landing, Anchor, Knot.

Just a head's up kiddies. A properly tied bowline--single, double or retraced--will not slip regardless of whether or not it has a stopper knot.

I used to think this was a good idea, but now I don't. Tying in wrong just to prove a point could simply be missed or forgotten. Why mess with fate?

What I've done with beginners in the past is simply tie in (correctly) and keep talking until they notice I'm not climbing. When they notice, they usually have to think, "why is he not climbing? OH! I forgot."

I interned at a job a long time ago and was asked to proofread a document for publication. I read it and didn't find any errors. I gave it back to him and said I didn't find any errors but I was suspicious because I figured he'd throw in a few errors just to see if I was paying attention. His response: "Why? A complete waste of time. If I wanted to test you then I'd give you a test."

To reenforce the idea that not double checking closely makes things easy to miss. The whole point of tying in wrong actually.


Beginners are more likely to double check, the key is getting people to keep double checking after they gain experience.


Anytime someone does something wrong on purpose, it is a test. They are being tested without being told. Nothing wrong with that. Just a friendly reminder to be vigilant.

Seems to me that tie-in failures happen more often with bowlines than Fig-8's, even though Fig-8's are much more commonly used. (Of course they are very rare--other than this one and Lynn Hill, I'm drawing a blank on specifics, and it's possible my suppositions are wrong--just going by my recollection as someone who pays attention to reported climbing accidents.)

We'll have to agree to disagree then. I'd hate to be that guy who tied in wrong to prove a point and then forgot about the whole thing. For me, it's do it right as much as possible. Yes, I do checks, but we're all human. I just can't say to myself that I'll be perfect all the time. Won't happen, particularly if I tempt fate, but that's just my history.

How would a instructor tying in wrong on purpose in this situation be different from him tying in wrong on purpose during a test.

This would be a random pop-quiz basically.

Climbing instructor Alison Taylor said the standard knot is a figure of eight which tightens and does not need a stopper.

"A bowline will come undone under pressure unless it has a stopper knot and some climbing centres only allow a figure of eight knot," she added.

More bad (as well as inaccurate) press for the bowline.

Agreed. The trouble with that sentence is the word "pressure", which is so general that it loses all meaning. Replace the word with the phrase "ring load" and you have something accurate. But I doubt the knot was ring loaded. Most likely, as RG suggested, it was never tied properly in the first place.

GO

Did you mean ring loading or cyclical loading?

your gym, your rules

the reality of it though is that after a while a partner is less and less likely to ask a floor person to check the bowline on every subsequent tie in ...

theres been "incidents" with the bowline IMO ... whatever the cause ...

http://www.rockandice.com/...cle/324-not-the-knot

http://www.rockfax.com/...1/12/04/knot-safety/

I meant ring loading. I suppose, though, that in some ropes a single bowline would eventually pull a few inches of tail through with cyclical loading. Still seems unlikely to me that that's what happened, though. As for a double bowline, do you really think that cyclical loading could pull through much rope through a double bowline? I really doubt it, but I'd have to play around with a few ropes to be sure.

Personally, I use a double bowline with a double fisherman backup.

GO

I notice a single, without a backup/finish, tends to works itself loose with cyclical loading.

I think you're flat-out wrong about an unbacked-up single or double bowline. Without constant tension, those knots can work loose and become untied.

Climber's death due to wrong knot inquest told

Thursday, April 05, 2012


AN EXPERIENCED climber fell to his death from a popular indoor climbing wall because he did not knot his rope properly, a coroner has ruled.

Retired aerospace engineer David Rothman, 73, was described to the Gloucester inquest as a "meticulous" man who had been climbing for more than 50 years.

But on November 7, the dad of two, of Blenheim drive, Bredon, near Tewkesbury, fell about 30ft from the wall at the Warehouse climbing centre in Gloucester.

He suffered multiple injuries including numerous fractures and died two days later in the intensive care unit of Gloucestershire Royal Hospital.

The inquest heard that Mr Rothman had probably used a bowline rather than a figure of eight knot in his rope.

Experts said that a bowline knot was more likely to slip than a figure of eight unless a "stopper knot" was also tied in the rope.

But it appeared that Mr Rothman had failed to tie a stopper knot.

Mr Rothman's widow, Carol, said he was a very experienced rock climber who was always careful about his equipment and preparation and never took risks. Olga Greenslade, who was climbing with Mr Rothman, said when he landed from the fall there was no rope attached to him.

Tony Raphael, who has been climbing for 40 years, said he was belaying the rope for Mr Rothman when he felt some tension in it.

"I looked up and saw the rope separating from Dave. I saw it come away," he said. Almost immediately Mr Rothman fell.

Climbing instructor Alison Taylor said the standard knot is a figure of eight which tightens and does not need a stopper.

"A bowline will come undone under pressure unless it has a stopper knot and some climbing centres only allow a figure of eight knot," she added.

Recording an accidental death verdict, the deputy Gloucestershire coroner David Dooley said it appeared to be a tragic case of human error.

"Had a stopper knot been used, the rope probably would not have failed," he said.

"There is a direct causal link between his decision to use a particular knot without a stop knot and his fall."

The linked report says

The inquest heard that Mr Rothman had probably used a bowline rather than a figure of eight knot in his rope.

A guy with 50 years experience, probably all of that with a backed-up bowline, ties it without a backup? As someone with the same amount of experience who has always used bowlines, I find this exceptionally unlikely. Once you start a rehearsed sequence of motions (rehearsed for half a century), you finish the sequence automatically, you don't stop in the middle for anything.

Tony Raphael, who has been climbing for 40 years, said he was belaying the rope for Mr Rothman when he felt some tension in it.
"I looked up and saw the rope separating from Dave. I saw it come away," he said. Almost immediately Mr Rothman fell.

It appeared Mr Rothman had failed to tie a stopper knot and his rope gave way just as he was beginning to descend from the top of the 11-metre high wall.

Climbing instructor Alison Taylor said the standard knot is a figure of eight which tightens and does not need a stopper.
"A bowline will come undone under pressure unless it has a stopper knot and some climbing centres only allow a figure of eight knot," she added.

A sad and terrible tragedy, but not one solved or even slightly ameliorated by banning the backed-up bowline.

I don't recall ever hearing about a bowline coming untied during the many years it was the only knot we used.

Back in the day, I think we we more scared more of the time. We didn't have things that would lock, rappelling was potentially excruciatingly painful, letting go of the brake hand was an absolute death sentence for belayers and rappellers, and no one was going to check your knot and point out your errors. I'm not saying any of this was good and I'm not in the grip of any nostalgia for it. But I do wonder whether the aura of safety that surrounds climbing today isn't just a little too warm and fuzzy for the underlying reality.

In 30 years of climbing I have never not been able to untie a figuer eight. I have tested and found that you can tie only 2/3 of a figuer eight and it still holds body weight. If you forget to finish a fig 8 you still have a chance. forget to finish a bowline and you are toast! I do use the bowline in many other climbing aplications such as my 6mm chalkbag cord and my 9mm home made adjustable daisy. Bowlines loosen up, Fig 8's do not. pretty simple stuff.

KISS

INMOP anyone still tying in with a bowline in the USA is either trying to be cool or a stuborn old fart who dislikes chamge

So what about all those people not in the USA? Like Adam Ondra who doesn´t really need to improve his coolness credentials and is hardly an old fart yet, or is the hidden message that the USA leads the world in some way?

In 30 years of climbing I have never not been able to untie a figuer eight...INMOP anyone still tying in with a bowline in the USA is either trying to be cool or a stuborn old fart who dislikes chamge

On the other hand:

I often tie a figuer eight in the center of the rope, clip that to the anchor and then drop both ends off the cliff. I now have 2 strands of 100ft rope to rap and jug on giveing me some redundancy in case of one cutting when working new projects. After a day of jugging and rapping on that line it is pretty hard to get that figuer 8 undone but it has always been doable

Rich. I am certain that your method works well for you and tere is no doubt that you are Cool Not saying that i never had a tight knott but also never needed tools to get one apart. I often tie a figuer eight in the center of the rope, clip that to the anchor and then drop both ends off the cliff. I now have 2 strands of 100ft rope to rap and jug on giveing me some redundancy in case of one cutting when working new projects. After a day of jugging and rapping on that line it is pretty hard to get that figuer 8 undone but it has always been doable. perhaps there is a better knot for this purpose but I am not enough of a knott expert to know of one. I do not belay directly on my tie in loop. i have a belay loop or anchor power point for that situation depending. As for the tie in knott, fig eight has worked well for me. I did a stint with the bowline trying to be cool but it I grew up and got over it ;)

Mike , jugging continously bounces the rope. when you work a new route with lots of cleaning, trundeling, swinging, top rope falls and jugging to the top several times over the course of 6 or 8 hours I am pretty darn sure that knot is tighter than any leader fall my fat arse has ever taken. the whole point of this system is to have 2 completly independant and bombproof ropes useing a single rope folded in half.

Wrong Mike.

I would still consider the bowline on a bight. I use it for TR soloing. It's strong, provides two lines (though different in that it has two anchoring loops), and unties easily.