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Sumpumpolis
Jun 1, 2012, 6:05 AM
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Two days ago, A friend of mine was climbing and while rappelling down to a set of anchors he ran out the end of his rope. he fell something a little short of 50 feet, and has several broken ribs, a broken hip, a broken ankle, and lots of internal damage. but, is going to live with no permanent injuries. this does work as a good example of why knots at the ends of the rope are important... and having someone at the bottom to tell you when your ropes are even. and having experienced climbers with you. well, hmm, i'm not the most experienced, best leave this to others to decide lessons learned... anyways, it was the luckiest fall ever as well, apparently he fell between several large rocks, a stump, anything harder and more dangerous than the dirt he landed on. plus it took only about 15 minutes for rescue to arrive
(This post was edited by Sumpumpolis on Jun 1, 2012, 6:17 PM)
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iknowfear
Jun 1, 2012, 7:30 AM
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Sumpumpolis wrote: Two days ago, A friend of mine was climbing and while rappelling down to a set of anchors he ran out the end of his rope. he fell something a little short of 50 feet, and has several broken ribs, a broken hip, a broken ankle, and lots of internal damage. but, is going to live with no permanent injuries. this does work as a good example of why knots at the ends of the rope are important... and having someone at the bottom to tell you when your ropes are even. and having experienced climbers with you. it was the luckiest fall ever as well, apparently he fell between several large rocks, a stump, anything harder and more dangerous than the dirt he landed on. I wish your friend a quick recovery! all the best.
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sungam
Jun 1, 2012, 11:33 AM
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Hey, hopes your buddy feels better soon. 99% of the time there is no real reason not to tie knots on the ends of your ropes, as you said it should really be done all the time (even if the rope is long enough in case it's uneven).
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socalclimber
Jun 1, 2012, 12:35 PM
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First off, glad your friend is going to be ok.
In reply to: does work as a good example of why knots at the ends of the rope are important... and having someone at the bottom to tell you when your ropes are even. This is not good advice. I appreciate the sentiment, but this was not the cause of the accident. The cause of the accident is very clear, your friend was not PAYING ATTENTION TO THE ENDS OF THE ROPE. Period. Knots in the ends do have their place, but they are not an absolute. Let me give you an example. You are on a multi pitch rappel. You've tied knots in both ends of the rope. It's insanely windy out. The ends of the ropes are now whipping about and there are cracks, trees, flakes etc everywhere. A big gust of wind comes along and blows your carefully knotted ropes behind a flake and they get stuck. Now you have a real problem. You can be just as dead stranded off the ground because you can't clear the lines as you are if you go off the ends. A stranded climber is a dead climber. I've had rope ends blowing literally 30 feet over my head whipping around in all directions. I promise, I was very glad there were no knots in the ends. Nothing is going to replace your awareness of the current situation. PAY ATTENTION. If you are rapping and having a hard time finding the anchors, STOP. Re-assess your situation. Keep an eye on the ends of the rope. You can always fix the problem if you get below the anchors caused you missed them. Again I hope your friend recovers quickly!
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Rudmin
Jun 1, 2012, 3:23 PM
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This is a good reminder to remark the middle of my rope. Lately I've just been guesstimating.
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6pacfershur
Jun 1, 2012, 3:25 PM
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socalclimber wrote: ....A stranded climber is a dead climber.... would you consider Joe Simpson stranded on Siula Grande?
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bearbreeder
Jun 1, 2012, 3:43 PM
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if its that windy bag it ... you can still have knots just fine its quite likely that more people have died rapping off ends than having knots stuck i cracks on windy days ...
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notapplicable
Jun 1, 2012, 4:26 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: if its that windy bag it ... you can still have knots just fine its quite likely that more people have died rapping off ends than having knots stuck i cracks on windy days ... Quite likely?? I would say its absolutely certain. People tend to epic when their ropes get stuck but the don't often die. Epicing can be fun. Dying never is.
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socalclimber
Jun 1, 2012, 4:40 PM
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6pacfershur wrote: socalclimber wrote: ....A stranded climber is a dead climber.... would you consider Joe Simpson stranded on Siula Grande? I would consider Joe Simpson fucking lucky at best....
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socalclimber
Jun 1, 2012, 4:45 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: if its that windy bag it ... you can still have knots just fine its quite likely that more people have died rapping off ends than having knots stuck i cracks on windy days ... I don't know where you climb, but I've ben in plenty of places where "bagging it" wasn't an option. You need to get down. The last thing I need is a stuck rope. And plenty people have died because they got stranded on a cliff face when bad weather rolled in. It happens. Don't kid yourselves. I know this is noob.com, but believe it not, some of us actually climb in areas that aren't exactly easily accessible. Not all climbing has to happen with in sight of your car or a trail.
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bearbreeder
Jun 1, 2012, 4:50 PM
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thats yr judgement call ... short of lightning storms ... i cant think of weather conditions where i wouldnt spend an extra few min bagging the rope if it was THAT windy ... ropes can get stuck even without knots, why risk it if the wind is blowing more than a porn star when yr rushing yr more likely to eff it all up regardless ...
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Jun 1, 2012, 4:52 PM)
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olderic
Jun 1, 2012, 5:15 PM
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Rudmin wrote: This is a good reminder to remark the middle of my rope. Lately I've just been guesstimating. Never ever trust a middle marker - at least on the first rap of the day. I bet more people have gone off the end after mistaking a mark for the middle (in some cases the mark actually once was the middle) then have gone off the ends by mis-guestimating.
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viciado
Jun 1, 2012, 5:21 PM
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As you said up-thread: "I appreciate your sentiment," but bagging is certainly an option to consider. Yes, there are instances where it might be a disadvantage to bag the rope. Your opposition simply comes across to me as being too strongly against the consideration it is worth. A bagged rope can potentially compensate for the two or three minutes it takes to flake it into the top of a day pack over the epic of freeing (a) stuck end(s). No, bagging the rope is not always the best solution, but neither is leaving the ropes un-knotted. On another point, maybe I'm not following your reasoning very well, but I'm not sure why you referred to difficulty of access in regard to this question. Bagging a rope doesn't require special heavy duty equipment. I can imagine circumstances in which I would not have a pack I could re-task to serve the purpose, but those would more likely be at a crag with good access than on a remote multi-pitch. What is your thinking on that?
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Rudmin
Jun 1, 2012, 5:22 PM
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olderic wrote: Rudmin wrote: This is a good reminder to remark the middle of my rope. Lately I've just been guesstimating. Never ever trust a middle marker - at least on the first rap of the day. I bet more people have gone off the end after mistaking a mark for the middle (in some cases the mark actually once was the middle) then have gone off the ends by mis-guestimating. I stitch mine through the sheath. It doesn't move until it's almost completely disintegrated.
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socalclimber
Jun 1, 2012, 5:26 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: thats yr judgement call ... short of lightning storms ... i cant think of weather conditions where i wouldnt spend an extra few min bagging the rope if it was THAT windy ... ropes can get stuck even without knots, why risk it if the wind is blowing more than a porn star when yr rushing yr more likely to eff it all up regardless ... No, that's not a judgement call, that's plain old fashioned experience and common sense. Apparently you have not done enough multi pitch climbing to understand my point. Knotting your ends all the time can only serve to screw you in high wind situations on formations that have a lot of "features". If the wall is blank, then it's no big deal. I've been in more than my fair share of situations where rapping a long route was the only choice, and bagging it wasn't an option.
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socalclimber
Jun 1, 2012, 5:33 PM
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I'll make my point even clearer. There are people on this thread who clearly are thinking in a short term mentality rather than the bigger picture. Yes I have left a rope behind because it got stuck and got it back later. My biggest point to the OP is that this false idea that knots will save life rather than awareness is WRONG. It is an option, not a rule. On multi pitch routes, which the OP and others eventually will end up on, and rapping is the only option, then you can't "bag" the rope if it gets stuck because you tied knots in it and the winds blew one of the knots into crack a flake. Now it's stuck. Bad weather could be rolling in. Know you've got a problem. It's bad advice.
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socalclimber
Jun 1, 2012, 5:38 PM
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Whoever commented on the blind trust of middle marks in the rope was 100% correct. Yet another distraction from the true heart of the matter, PAY ATTENTION. I promise, I rap more in one month the most of you will do in a year. It's my job. I'm constantly having to rappel routes first so the client comes down second and I can give them a fireman's belay. I never knot my ends. I pay attention.
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socalclimber
Jun 1, 2012, 5:42 PM
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robdotcalm wrote: socalclimber wrote: [I've been in more than my fair share of situations where rapping a long route was the only choice, and bagging it wasn't an option. I'm wondering if a confusion has occurred because of 2 different meanings of the word "bag". One defintion is to place the rope in a pack and feed it out as one rappels in order to keep the rope from blowing about in the wind. The second meaning is to just quit what one is doing. rob.calm That's an excellent point. My take on the response may well have been misunderstood on my part. If so, then I stand corrected. I don't personally "bag" the rope. I have on the other taken the butterfly and hung it below me off my harness and payed out the rope to deal with the wind issues. Excellent observation, and if I did indeed misinterpret that point, then my apologies are in order.
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olderic
Jun 1, 2012, 5:45 PM
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Rudmin wrote: olderic wrote: Rudmin wrote: This is a good reminder to remark the middle of my rope. Lately I've just been guesstimating. Never ever trust a middle marker - at least on the first rap of the day. I bet more people have gone off the end after mistaking a mark for the middle (in some cases the mark actually once was the middle) then have gone off the ends by mis-guestimating. I stitch mine through the sheath. It doesn't move until it's almost completely disintegrated. And when you loan it to a friend who chops 10 feet off the end because of a damaged sheath.... I expect your response will be along the lines of "I never loan out my lead rope". Blind faith in "never" and "always" never ends up happily.
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socalclimber
Jun 1, 2012, 5:50 PM
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Ain't that the truth. If we're not using my rope, I always ask, "how long is this rope?" I got bit by that one a long time ago. Never again.
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Rudmin
Jun 1, 2012, 5:56 PM
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It's true, I don't loan any of my ropes. I also don't have asshole friends that would break my gear and not tell me. I also know what the end of my rope looks like. I suppose, gremlins could sneak into my gear at night and take out the middle mark and restitch it 5 feet away from the middle. And then, on my next full length rappel (which doesn't happen that often with a 70m), I might, gasp, have to adjust the ends, mid rappel. Oh no! What is your plan for when your friends borrow your rope and dip in in battery acid? Or what about when your friends sneak into your gear closet and cut all of the bartacks on your gear and then glue the webbing back together with superglue? That would never happen you say? oh.
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olderic
Jun 1, 2012, 6:04 PM
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When you get more experience you will realize that things are seldom as black and white as you think they are at this stage.
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Rudmin
Jun 1, 2012, 6:12 PM
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olderic wrote: When you get more experience you will realize that things are seldom as black and white as you think they are at this stage. Experience trolling the internet? Give me a single logical reason, why I shouldn't use a middle mark to line up my rope on a rappel. You're only argument so far was that my rope will be somehow shortened without my knowledge. I pointed out that if gear can dangerously change without your knowledge, then all sorts of crazy shit could happen that will kill you. So you came back by calling me inexperienced. I'm sure that's always a good trump card to play every time you make up an arbitrary statements about rock climbing.
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curt
Jun 1, 2012, 6:16 PM
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"Paying attention" is actually the only answer that is universally applicable. Knots have their place--but aren't always a good idea. Relying on a middle mark might be OK, but more than one party has rapped off the end of their rope after thinking that one of the new, idiotic "rope end markings" was actually the center mark of the rope. Curt
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healyje
Jun 1, 2012, 6:25 PM
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Socalclimber is absolutely on target with this one - it isn't about knots in the ends or middle markers - it's about paying attention to the business which is literally 'at hand'. And while the OP in't clear whether this was a case of rapping off the end of even or uneven ropes, not paying attention to what is running through your hands in either case is the primary failure involved with these kinds of accidents. The fact this is becoming the accident de jeur of late is troubling on a number of counts. It used to be a fairly rare occurrence, but now seems to be a monthly event among both new and experienced climbers. It's a bit of a mystery to me as I don't move an inch on a rappel without knowing exactly where I am relative to the end of the rope on a millisecond-by-millisecond basis.
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olderic
Jun 1, 2012, 6:29 PM
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Just you using one rope that you have knowledge of is obviously pretty safe. But in reality ends do get cut off (unlike the other silly malicious damage you suggested, more likely with a 70 that you alluded to using) and ropes do get passed around. You sound like you are at the point where you aren't aware of the extent to which these things happen. I started out suggesting that you use caution on the first rap of the day to make sure that the apparent middle actually is. If you think that is overkill - fine - don't bother. I personally think that knots in the end are overkill 99% of the time and rarely use them - most often with a nervous partner. Mistaking a middle marker has resulted in the death of one friend and a badly broken leg in another - so I'm somewhat skeptical.
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bearbreeder
Jun 1, 2012, 6:45 PM
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bagging as in saddlebagging or some variation thereoff ... like i said if the wind is bowing like crazy, i prefer not to be throwing my ropes, knotted or unknotted ... they can get stuck either way ... as to multi ... i run up a 6+ pitch multi on average 3+ times a week in climbing seasons and a 12+ pitch multi once a week at least ... some have rap offs, others dont knotting is yr choice ... but like i said i would bet that more people die of rapping off the ends of the rope than getting stuck on rap ... especially when yr cold, tired, and hungry, in the dark ... or when yr in a rush ... and no you dont trust middle marks or pattern changes unless its yr rope or you know its accurate ... here my "clients" (im not a guide) on the last pitch of a 14 pitch multi last week ... walked right off
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Jun 1, 2012, 6:50 PM)
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Rudmin
Jun 1, 2012, 6:53 PM
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olderic wrote: Just you using one rope that you have knowledge of is obviously pretty safe. But in reality ends do get cut off (unlike the other silly malicious damage you suggested, more likely with a 70 that you alluded to using) and ropes do get passed around. You sound like you are at the point where you aren't aware of the extent to which these things happen. I started out suggesting that you use caution on the first rap of the day to make sure that the apparent middle actually is. If you think that is overkill - fine - don't bother. I personally think that knots in the end are overkill 99% of the time and rarely use them - most often with a nervous partner. Mistaking a middle marker has resulted in the death of one friend and a badly broken leg in another - so I'm somewhat skeptical. If I'm climbing on someone else's rope, I still wouldn't spend the time measuring out the middle mark at the top of the rap. What I would do is rappel with their middle mark, and keep an eye on the ends, like I always do. If the end of the ropes aren't even and I'm getting close to them, I would lock off one strand, and slip the other to even it out. The middle mark isn't a safety device, it's a speed device. It saves the time spent adjusting rappels or measuring the rope (grabbing the ends and working to the middle). It helps you get the ends of the rope even. Having an accurate middle mark, or having the ends of the rope even is not a replacement for paying attention on rappels. It's still just as easy to rap off the end. edit: I don't think it ever makes sense to rely on the middle mark to keep you from rappelling off the end of your rope. It implies that you are also relying on the fact that a fixed anchor will be 30 m below you, and those are both terrible assumptions. What it boils down to is I disagree with Olderic saying double check your middle mark for the sake of safety. I don't think you should ever rely on the middle mark to keep you safe.
(This post was edited by Rudmin on Jun 1, 2012, 7:01 PM)
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shockabuku
Jun 1, 2012, 8:51 PM
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Rudmin wrote: olderic wrote: When you get more experience you will realize that things are seldom as black and white as you think they are at this stage. Experience trolling the internet? Give me a single logical reason, why I shouldn't use a middle mark to line up my rope on a rappel. You're only argument so far was that my rope will be somehow shortened without my knowledge. I pointed out that if gear can dangerously change without your knowledge, then all sorts of crazy shit could happen that will kill you. So you came back by calling me inexperienced. I'm sure that's always a good trump card to play every time you make up an arbitrary statements about rock climbing. You know, that part I bolded above is actually a true statement.
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socalclimber
Jun 1, 2012, 8:52 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: bagging as in saddlebagging or some variation thereoff ... like i said if the wind is bowing like crazy, i prefer not to be throwing my ropes, knotted or unknotted ... they can get stuck either way ... as to multi ... i run up a 6+ pitch multi on average 3+ times a week in climbing seasons and a 12+ pitch multi once a week at least ... some have rap offs, others dont knotting is yr choice ... but like i said i would bet that more people die of rapping off the ends of the rope than getting stuck on rap ... especially when yr cold, tired, and hungry, in the dark ... or when yr in a rush ... and no you dont trust middle marks or pattern changes unless its yr rope or you know its accurate ... here my "clients" (im not a guide) on the last pitch of a 14 pitch multi last week ... walked right off [image]http://i46.tinypic.com/11vi6fk.jpg[/image] Ok, no problems. My apologies for making an assumption. I still stand by my assertions though. And, I never trust middle marks. " walked right off" You bastard!
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shockabuku
Jun 1, 2012, 8:54 PM
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Gotta tell you - I hate reading "..." and "yr" every 5-10 words with no capitals and periods.
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socalclimber
Jun 1, 2012, 9:17 PM
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shockabuku wrote: Gotta tell you - I hate reading "..." and "yr" every 5-10 words with no capitals and periods. yr not vry patient....
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socalclimber
Jun 1, 2012, 9:18 PM
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sungam
Jun 1, 2012, 9:30 PM
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socalclimber wrote: The last thing I need is a stuck rope. And plenty people have died because they got stranded on a cliff face when bad weather rolled in. It happens. Unfortunately a lad I knew got his ropes caught bailing from Fingers Ridge while a bad weather system was moving in. The clusterfuck slowed him down enough that he and his partner got caught in the meat of the storm and didn't make it back to the car, which in good conditions was about a 40 minute walk away. It's unclear if they had tied knots or not. At the same time I know a guy who rapped off the end of his rope in Ouray and fucked himself up a little bit. I've only bagged a rope once due to wind, and it was a hassle - we weren't expecting to do so so the second's bag which we used had other shit in it. Luckily I've never really been in a proper shit situation when it comes to rapping off, but I like to think I would be able to weigh up the pros and cons of stacking/bagging/knots/etc. to minimize risk if I did. Which I guess is all you can do - pick the technique least likely to end up with you fucked*. *Interestingly this seems to be the complete opposite of college.
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socalclimber
Jun 2, 2012, 12:58 AM
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Private message sent with an apology to beerbreader.
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bearbreeder
Jun 2, 2012, 1:32 AM
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appreciated, but no need ... all of us RCers have flamed each other before ... as long as everyone goes out, has a great time and bash n00bs (and majid) online its all good
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socalclimber
Jun 2, 2012, 1:36 AM
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Thank you much, but believe it or not, I suffer from a nasty streak of morality.
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bhickey
Jun 2, 2012, 1:57 AM
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In reply to: there is no real reason not to tie knots on the ends of your ropes, as you said it should really be done all the time Two weeks ago a friend took a 4m fall on top-rope when the rope went through her belayer's device. As she went up he repositioned himself, moving backward and to lower ground. When he lowered her the rope came up short and she fell hitting her head on the ground. She got a CT scan and spent a night in the hospital for observation. (This is the same friend who once took a massive groundfall on Frog's Head...)
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billl7
Jun 2, 2012, 2:14 AM
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sungam wrote: Luckily I've never really been in a proper shit situation when it comes to rapping off, but I like to think I would be able to weigh up the pros and cons of stacking/bagging/knots/etc. to minimize risk if I did. Which I guess is all you can do - pick the technique least likely to end up with you fucked*. Agreed. That's the nature of long days on a route. And as Joseph said upstream, stay vigilant about what is going on around you. Bill L *Interestingly this seems to be the complete opposite of college.
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healyje
Jun 2, 2012, 5:52 AM
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I climb in the winter east winds in the Columbia River Gorge quite a lot in winds 30-50 and even 70 kts that can pull the rope straight out of your hands and bag streaming it horizontally in a heartbeat if you lapse your rope handling for even a moment. And while I always bag for raps in those conditions, you still end up with the rope out of the bag for pulls and there is always the potential for the ropes to hang up way, way out to the west of wherever you are if you fuck up so I never use knots on those occasions. The bag helps, but it by no means eliminates the problem.
(This post was edited by healyje on Jun 2, 2012, 10:12 AM)
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patto
Jun 2, 2012, 9:29 AM
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The fundamental issue isn't the lack of knots. Its the lack of consideration of this danger. Those that tie knots in their ropes generally don't need their knots because they've already considered the issue. An interesting question to consider is has ANYBODY ever been saved by knots in their abseil rope? Personally, I've reached my knots before. But I was watching them. It was a '40m' abseil with a doubled 60m rope. With stretch I was 3m off the ground. I just untied the knots and let the rope slip through and then down climbed the last 3m.
(This post was edited by patto on Jun 2, 2012, 9:31 AM)
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billl7
Jun 2, 2012, 12:58 PM
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patto wrote: The fundamental issue isn't the lack of knots. Its the lack of consideration of this danger. Those that tie knots in their ropes generally don't need their knots because they've already considered the issue. Well, I suspect those knots can for some become a mindless habit and lead to other problems rather than being a sign of considering the possible issues each time. A climbing acquaintance once tossed knotted ropes for rappel. The wind took the knots way off to the side and they got stuck in flake. For various reasons, the decision was to prusik out to the sticking point and free them, relying some on the stickage to get over there. This fellow is pretty conservative so I don't think swinging hard into something was a risk. But I can imagine someone risking serious injury from such a swing in desperation to avoid a hypothermic night or incoming bad weather. A relative of mine once came close to rapping off the ends. It wasn't an issue with uneven ends. Nor was it really an issue with not realizing how close the length of the rap would be to the end of the rappel. It was near the end of a long day in the Cascades of WA State, she was distracted while looking for the next set of anchors on a multi-rap descent. She rapped a bit farther than she needed to (I think) and suddenly saw that she was about 10 feet from the ends of the ropes. The pros and cons of knots are serious. The issue of distraction or just not paying attention is serious. For me, the more unknowns or uncertainties on a given rap, the greater the tendency to think of backups and alternatives before going on rappel (i.e., along the lines of Magnus's point). Bill L
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Gmburns2000
Jun 2, 2012, 3:23 PM
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socalclimber wrote: Ain't that the truth. If we're not using my rope, I always ask, "how long is this rope?" I got bit by that one a long time ago. Never again. +1
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majid_sabet
Jun 3, 2012, 2:51 AM
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look back as you rap and monitor the ends. [url=http://postimage.org/]adult upload image [url=http://postimage.org/]image hosting
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 3, 2012, 4:35 PM)
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j_ung
Jun 3, 2012, 11:59 AM
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notapplicable wrote: bearbreeder wrote: if its that windy bag it ... you can still have knots just fine its quite likely that more people have died rapping off ends than having knots stuck i cracks on windy days ... Quite likely?? I would say its absolutely certain. People tend to epic when their ropes get stuck but the don't often die. Epicing can be fun. Dying never is. Just to join in the taking-everybody-literally trend... Dying is never fun? What if you had crotch fungus and a terminal heart condition and you could go out hate f^@&ing Ann Coulter?
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healyje
Jun 3, 2012, 1:21 PM
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j_ung wrote: majid_sabet wrote: look back as you rap and monitor the ends. ^What he said. Whether I have knots in the ends or not. I may not always tie knots in my rap ropes, but I consider it every single time and I always keep a careful eye below me. Same here. Bottom line is if you don't know exactly and for sure where you are relative to both ends of the rope you should be locked off sorting it out and not moving an inch until you have.
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rightarmbad
Jun 3, 2012, 1:23 PM
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We were benighted on a cliff one night and realised as we got to the abseil anchors for the cliff, that we forgot to bring two ropes for the abseil. We knew it would be close to a tree and hoped that we could get into the tree instead off doing a very long walk off. I rapped without knots in the dark to find that with stretch and careful maneuvering, I could reach the tree and get down. We never used any knots because we knew that length would be important and didn't want to deal with undoing knots at the end wondering if the few extra inches in the knot would be enough to reach or not. No danger here, we were simply aware of our circumstances and proceed appropriately. I never use knots. Just be aware of your surroundings. People who insist on knots and abseil backups scare the shit out of me.
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moose_droppings
Jun 3, 2012, 3:42 PM
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rightarmbad wrote: I never use knots. . One extreme to the other.
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Lazlo
Jun 3, 2012, 4:32 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: rightarmbad wrote: I never use knots. . One extreme to the other. Win!
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suprasoup
Jun 3, 2012, 9:25 PM
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An interesting question to consider is has ANYBODY ever been saved by knots in their abseil rope? Personally, I've reached my knots before. But I was watching them. It was a '40m' abseil with a doubled 60m rope. With stretch I was 3m off the ground. I just untied the knots and let the rope slip through and then down climbed the last 3m. Yeah. Friends of mine decided that on their wedding day they'd climb up a multi pitch route and get married on the top of said route. The conditions that day were crap. Super frigid and so much fog that you couldn't see more than a few feet in front of you. Anyway, I rapped a subsequent line so that I could take pics of them climbing. On the second rap I see these indistinct shapes fluttering into my view from beyond the fog. "What the hell is that?" I'm wondering to myself. Well I'll tell ya it was pterodactyls man. A whole flock of them. So here I am hanging on a rope several hundred feet off the ground, blanketed in an impenetrable fog, and somehow a freakin flock of prehistoric flying reptiles found my a$$. So what did they do? I'll tell you what they did. They tore me a new one thats what. They swooped in and bit and pecked and gouged at my face and eyes. Needless to say I tried to fight them off. And like the retard that I am I lost control of the rap in my efforts to avoid being mauled to death by pterodactyls. (I didn't have a prussic back up. Idiotic, I know) So did I plummeted quickly to my death? Nope. I was on the high friction side of my device and I descended at a snails pace. So much so that I didn't even realize what was happening until I jammed up against the knot I had tied at the end of the rope. Did I thank my lucky stars that I remembered to tie the knot? In hindsight you betcha. But not then when I was dangling at the end of the rope like a stuffed pinata getting murderplexed by a mob of angry avian predators. So after the pterodactyls finished kicking the crap outta me they flew off. I came to a little while later, extricated myself, and ascended back up the rope to the anchors I had rapped past. Got myself into position in time for the bride and groom to climb past. So in answer to your question I have had my a$$ saved by a knot at the end of the rope. Supra Turns out the pterodactyls were actually falcons. But I'm sticking to Pterodactyls. Those suckers were HUGE!
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curt
Jun 3, 2012, 10:17 PM
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Sounds absolutely pterofying!! Curt
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Gmburns2000
Jun 3, 2012, 10:32 PM
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suprasoup wrote: An interesting question to consider is has ANYBODY ever been saved by knots in their abseil rope? Personally, I've reached my knots before. But I was watching them. It was a '40m' abseil with a doubled 60m rope. With stretch I was 3m off the ground. I just untied the knots and let the rope slip through and then down climbed the last 3m. Yeah. Friends of mine decided that on their wedding day they'd climb up a multi pitch route and get married on the top of said route. The conditions that day were crap. Super frigid and so much fog that you couldn't see more than a few feet in front of you. Anyway, I rapped a subsequent line so that I could take pics of them climbing. On the second rap I see these indistinct shapes fluttering into my view from beyond the fog. "What the hell is that?" I'm wondering to myself. Well I'll tell ya it was pterodactyls man. A whole flock of them. [image]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_5NRRnAsk4ZY/SyfGWhNTZvI/AAAAAAAAAKk/vxNyDzZm_eE/s320/12.png[/image] So here I am hanging on a rope several hundred feet off the ground, blanketed in an impenetrable fog, and somehow a freakin flock of prehistoric flying reptiles found my a$$. So what did they do? I'll tell you what they did. They tore me a new one thats what. They swooped in and bit and pecked and gouged at my face and eyes. Needless to say I tried to fight them off. And like the retard that I am I lost control of the rap in my efforts to avoid being mauled to death by pterodactyls. (I didn't have a prussic back up. Idiotic, I know) [image]http://images.flabber.net/files/lees_verder/assholeoatmeal.jpg[/image] So did I plummeted quickly to my death? Nope. I was on the high friction side of my device and I descended at a snails pace. So much so that I didn't even realize what was happening until I jammed up against the knot I had tied at the end of the rope. Did I thank my lucky stars that I remembered to tie the knot? In hindsight you betcha. But not then when I was dangling at the end of the rope like a stuffed pinata getting murderplexed by a mob of angry avian predators. So after the pterodactyls finished kicking the crap outta me they flew off. I came to a little while later, extricated myself, and ascended back up the rope to the anchors I had rapped past. Got myself into position in time for the bride and groom to climb past. So in answer to your question I have had my a$$ saved by a knot at the end of the rope. Supra Turns out the pterodactyls were actually falcons. But I'm sticking to Pterodactyls. Those suckers were HUGE! Just to save anyone the trouble of doubting you and your story of being attacked by falcons, I'm going to go ahead and remind folks that you have pictures of when you were attacked by a cougar...and not the 50 something in a slinky black dress kind. edit: fixed cheesetits
(This post was edited by Gmburns2000 on Jun 3, 2012, 10:35 PM)
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wonderwoman
Jun 4, 2012, 1:16 AM
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Supra - why does the animal kingdom hate you? You have now reported having been attacked by felines, rodents & avians. I suggest you avoid surfing, or else you might be eaten by Mr. Jaws.
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shockabuku
Jun 4, 2012, 2:25 AM
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suprasoup wrote: An interesting question to consider is has ANYBODY ever been saved by knots in their abseil rope? Personally, I've reached my knots before. But I was watching them. It was a '40m' abseil with a doubled 60m rope. With stretch I was 3m off the ground. I just untied the knots and let the rope slip through and then down climbed the last 3m. Yeah. Friends of mine decided that on their wedding day they'd climb up a multi pitch route and get married on the top of said route. The conditions that day were crap. Super frigid and so much fog that you couldn't see more than a few feet in front of you. Anyway, I rapped a subsequent line so that I could take pics of them climbing. On the second rap I see these indistinct shapes fluttering into my view from beyond the fog. "What the hell is that?" I'm wondering to myself. Well I'll tell ya it was pterodactyls man. A whole flock of them. [image]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_5NRRnAsk4ZY/SyfGWhNTZvI/AAAAAAAAAKk/vxNyDzZm_eE/s320/12.png[/image] So here I am hanging on a rope several hundred feet off the ground, blanketed in an impenetrable fog, and somehow a freakin flock of prehistoric flying reptiles found my a$$. So what did they do? I'll tell you what they did. They tore me a new one thats what. They swooped in and bit and pecked and gouged at my face and eyes. Needless to say I tried to fight them off. And like the retard that I am I lost control of the rap in my efforts to avoid being mauled to death by pterodactyls. (I didn't have a prussic back up. Idiotic, I know) [image]http://images.flabber.net/files/lees_verder/assholeoatmeal.jpg[/image] So did I plummeted quickly to my death? Nope. I was on the high friction side of my device and I descended at a snails pace. So much so that I didn't even realize what was happening until I jammed up against the knot I had tied at the end of the rope. Did I thank my lucky stars that I remembered to tie the knot? In hindsight you betcha. But not then when I was dangling at the end of the rope like a stuffed pinata getting murderplexed by a mob of angry avian predators. So after the pterodactyls finished kicking the crap outta me they flew off. I came to a little while later, extricated myself, and ascended back up the rope to the anchors I had rapped past. Got myself into position in time for the bride and groom to climb past. So in answer to your question I have had my a$$ saved by a knot at the end of the rope. Supra Turns out the pterodactyls were actually falcons. But I'm sticking to Pterodactyls. Those suckers were HUGE! What's with you and the wildlife? Didn't you get attacked by a mountain lion once, too?
(This post was edited by shockabuku on Jun 4, 2012, 2:26 AM)
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moose_droppings
Jun 4, 2012, 4:15 AM
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suprasoup wrote: Turns out the pterodactyls were actually falcons. Mud falcons?
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suprasoup
Jun 5, 2012, 5:34 AM
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moose_droppings wrote: suprasoup wrote: Turns out the pterodactyls were actually falcons. Mud falcons? Peregrines I believe. They close some parts of the area during the mating season.
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squierbypetzl
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Jun 5, 2012, 6:42 AM
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suprasoup wrote: wonderwoman wrote: Supra - why does the animal kingdom hate you? You have now reported having been attacked by felines, rodents & avians. I suggest you avoid surfing, or else you might be eaten by Mr. Jaws. Too late. I got the crap kicked out of me by a Thresher Shark back in 2000. Don't go to Australia. The animals there aren't as forgiving as in other parts of the world. It's really no place for humans but you know Aussies.
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squierbypetzl
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Jun 5, 2012, 7:31 AM
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Does anyone have hands on experience of whether a backup knot will catch after rapping off the end of a rope? If not, I have the afternoon off to climb tomorrow and if the gym is emtpy I'll run some tests. Let's see... Double strand and single strand descent on 9.7mm dynamic rope, 10mm semi... rope. Friction devices: atc-xp (2 modes), 1st-gen grigri, reverso, 3 biner emergency descender. Backup up hitches from harness belay loop to, say, 8 inches above device: klemheist, prussic; 6mm cordelette. Big fat gym mats for the falls. "Moderate" descent speed (will calculate on site). 1st run of tests will recreate rope-ends slipping through brake-hand positioned just below the hip (possibly leaving sufficient slack for higher friction devices such as the atcxp to significantly slow the rate of descent, allowing the knot to engage). For the 2nd run I'll use what I consider a less than optimal grip position immediately below the rap device. I expect very few devices will significantly slow my descent. Any ideas or suggestions?
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patto
Jun 5, 2012, 8:39 AM
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squierbypetzl wrote: 1st run of tests will recreate rope-ends slipping through brake-hand positioned just below the hip (possibly leaving sufficient slack for higher friction devices such as the atcxp to significantly slow the rate of descent, allowing the knot to engage). For the 2nd run I'll use what I consider a less than optimal grip position immediately below the rap device. I expect very few devices will significantly slow my descent. Why do you suggest that having your hand immediately below the device offers less friction? Its about getting a 180degree angle on entrance and exit of the device. I normally have my hands immediately below the device. Normally around a foot or less. Incidently this is similar to how Petzl recommends you descend.
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squierbypetzl
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Jun 5, 2012, 9:06 AM
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patto wrote: squierbypetzl wrote: 1st run of tests will recreate rope-ends slipping through brake-hand positioned just below the hip (possibly leaving sufficient slack for higher friction devices such as the atcxp to significantly slow the rate of descent, allowing the knot to engage). For the 2nd run I'll use what I consider a less than optimal grip position immediately below the rap device. I expect very few devices will significantly slow my descent. Why do you suggest that having your hand immediately below the device offers less friction? Its about getting a 180degree angle on entrance and exit of the device. I normally have my hands immediately below the device. Normally around a foot or less. Incidently this is similar to how Petzl recommends you descend. I wasn't suggesting that. However I do believe that coming to an abrupt halt after descending at a fast pace with your hand immediately below the device (I mean an inches or two at the most) may result in a pinched finger with some devices. I give the device more clearance for this reason, keeping my hand about on my hip bone. As to Petzl's recommendations (which are nearly always solid) I use an ATC to descend, so...
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healyje
Jun 5, 2012, 10:06 AM
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squierbypetzl wrote: Does anyone have hands on experience of whether a backup knot will catch after rapping off the end of a rope? A backup below the device isn't going to help you if you rap off the end unless you can beam back aboard a rope now traveling a warp speed away from you. And I wouldn't count on a backup above the device being of much use either in the real world if you didn't see the end coming.
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bearbreeder
Jun 5, 2012, 4:49 PM
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the only thing that will help you in that scenario is having knots in the ends .... as to people never putting knots in the ends ... you guys have way more "confidence" than me if you end up rapping in the dark .... or ya never ever use dark colored ropes
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sandstone
Jun 5, 2012, 5:46 PM
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squierbypetzl wrote: Does anyone have hands on experience of whether a backup knot will catch after rapping off the end of a rope? .... I don't use, or recommend a prusik above the device, but once I was curious enough about whether or not it would catch in a "rap off the end of the rope" scenario to set up an experiment. The rig was a prusik (supple 6mm) above an ATC, with about 20+ feet of 10.5 rope. The results surprised me, when the rope end went through the ATC the prusik caught every time. I tried to make it fail (by loosening the prusik, and increasing the speed I went off the end of the rope) but it never did. I had a second rope rigged to catch me if it failed. Regarding the issue of knots, no knots, bagging, etc., there is no one way that is always best. What is best depends on the situation, and the variables that make that situation unique. If fatigue is high, then knots may very well save you from your biggest threat: yourself. The same is true for situations of high distraction or stress (due to cold, storm, injury, etc.). If you need thrown ropes to crash through foliage rather than tangle in it, stuff them in a bag and throw the bag down. If high winds threaten to snag your ropes, rap with them in a bag or sling hanging below you, feeding out as you go.
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moose_droppings
Jun 5, 2012, 10:55 PM
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There was a test done on that a while back that I read, I can't find it but I think rgold might have a link to it. It cautioned about grabbing the prusik, which in turn kept it from catching. I guess it's just a reaction to grab it as you go off the line. Shouldn't ever come to that point or your pushing your luck already IMO.
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habitat
Jun 10, 2012, 3:55 PM
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socalclimber wrote: Whoever commented on the blind trust of middle marks in the rope was 100% correct. Yet another distraction from the true heart of the matter, PAY ATTENTION. I promise, I rap more in one month the most of you will do in a year. It's my job. I'm constantly having to rappel routes first so the client comes down second and I can give them a fireman's belay. I never knot my ends. I pay attention. Yikes! You are displaying the .noob yourself... First off, what happens when clients "grip out" and won't rappel? We mostly do belayed rappels at our guide service, for starters...while there is a time and place for a firemans, say something weird like hair gets caught, you are SOL standing on the ground. Again, it depends, but the AMGA guides courses and exams (SPI, RIC) that I've taken all generally like to consider a belayed rappel better than a "prerig" with firemans; you can do a lot more for a client on "2 lines" (Their rappel and your belaying) than the firemans. Never knot ropes? again, a very uninformed comment; there is definitely a time and place for it. Retreating from big walls in the middle of the night is the first one that comes to my mind from personal experience. I agree with the "Pay Attention" part but the great AMGA teachers I had always want to note "variables" and rarely if ever use a "never"....
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rgold
Jun 10, 2012, 6:46 PM
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Moose D mentions the fact that a rappel backup knot above the device may not work because the climber won't release it. I don't have a web link, but do have the original reference. Here's what I wrote in a Supertopo discussion of the same topic: The biggest problem with the knot above the device is that experiments have shown that a climber who loses control will not release their grip on the friction knot and so it will not function as a safety. [The Tech Troglodyte, Vol. III, No. 2, Winter, 1965, pp. 31-33] The tests were conducted with a belayed rappeller using two ropes, one for the friction knot and the other for the device. The device rope was set up short, so that the rappeller rapped off the end of that rope, thereby losing control of the rappel. In order to stop, they would have to release the friction knot, but even if they knew exactly when they were going off the device rope, the grip reflex was too strong, the system failed to stop the rappeller, and the belay had to be used. I'd say that in a real situation as opposed to some test set-up, there is absolutely no chance that a friction knot rappel backup will keep you from rappelling off the end of the rope if you don't realize the end or ends are there. As for knotting the ends of the rope, I belong to the It Depends School of Mountaineering Precautions. I agree with Healje and Socalclimber that actually paying attention basically eliminates all problems. However, the number of inattention accidents to experienced climbers is very worrisome. I have caught myself watching the turkey vultures soar on the updrafts rather than attending to my rope-ends, although in my defense I knew as much as it is humanly possible to know that they were way longer than necessary and could not possibly be uneven. Still, any kind of inattention in any circumstance is something that could propagate over to more demanding situations, and people who do go off the ends of their ropes obviously do not think they are in a demanding situation. There are some potential problems with knots in the ends, and not just on windy days. I've only had four rappel hangups in my entire climbing life, and two of them involved getting knotted ropes stuck. Once, the ropes hung below the end of the rappel. I had to rappel to the very end of the ropes, free them, and re-ascend the ropes back to the rap station. A second time, thrown ropes went into a big tree and then the knots jammed in the fork of a branch. I couldn't get them free from above and had to climb the tree with prusik safeties on the ropes. Both situations were dangerous and very time-consuming. In one case a nighttime descent was one of the results. If the inattention you might have exercised during the rappel instead occurs when you are pulling the ropes and you forget to unknot the appropriate strand, then you are in a potentially very bad situation in which you might be forced to ascend a rope hoping that the knot you forgot to untie is jammed in the rap ring above and will not pull through it while you are on the rope. For these and other reasons, I do not think of knots in the ropes as a universal panacea. I usually rappel without any knots. If, as I approach the next station, it looks as if there could be anything dicey about the landing, I'll lock off, pull up the ends, and knot them. If, for some reason such as wind, I'm carrying the rope down with me rather than throwing it, then I'll usually knot the ends, for in this case you get increased security with no potential hang-up penalty. As for bagging a rope, you really have to knot the ends, since you can't tell where they are until the emerge from the bag. For this reason, I prefer carrying the ropes flaked over the rap device extension (much easier to keep from tangling than the usually recommended saddlebag method) if it is windy and throwing is not advisable.
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sandstone
Jun 10, 2012, 11:50 PM
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rgold wrote: [..] in a real situation as opposed to some test set-up, there is absolutely no chance that a friction knot rappel backup will keep you from rappelling off the end of the rope[..] I agree with that 100%. My experiments answered a technical question I was curious about, but the setup and methods I used do not carry over into normal climbing practice. Friction knots will not keep you from going off the ends of the rope, but they can help protect you from a loss of control mid rappel. If you extend the rap device on a short sling, and use a friction knot below the device, then that's a pretty good backup. The situation of the knot NOT working because you didn't let go of it does not really apply if the friction knot is below the device. If you are gripping the knot (and the rope it surrounds) tightly, then you are going to stop. If for any reason you let go of the knot/rope, then the knot has a very good chance of cinching on the rope and stopping you. I'll take that.
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Gmburns2000
Jun 10, 2012, 11:59 PM
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sandstone wrote: The situation of the knot NOT working because you didn't let go of it does not really apply if the friction knot is below the device. If you are gripping the knot (and the rope it surrounds) tightly, then you are going to stop. If for any reason you let go of the knot/rope, then the knot has a very good chance of cinching on the rope and stopping you. I'll take that. At the very least it'll jam in the device.
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guangzhou
Jun 11, 2012, 5:32 AM
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I don't know who raps more in one month , but I do know that accidents happen even when precautions are taken. I guess that's why they are called accidents. (I bet my AMGA membership started long before yours did, so let's avoid the "I'm an AMGA Blah Blah Blah." ) Rappeling with clients, or how a guide raps with a clients really depends on the clients, the location, and other factors. If I were guiding an experienced client at a place like the sea cliffs of Arcadia in Maine, I would most likely not tie knots in the end of my ropes and would most likely give the client a fireman belay. The Same Client and I coming off something on White Horse in New Hampshire and there's a good chance I would tie knots. Rapping off some crack on Glacier Point and I'd make the judgement call on the spot. An inexperienced client, I would threat differently but most like still not ties knots in the end of my rope at Arcadia because on how much rope is piled in the base. Me, I avoid rappelling when I can but I still end up on rappel a lot. Sometime it's coming off multi-pitch routes, sometimes single pitch route, sometimes I might be rap-bolting a new route. Sometimes I descending into canyons to check out new climbing of canyoneering potential. (Hot summers in Asia) I decide whether or not I need a knot at that time. More often than not, I don't have a knot, but I still use them sometimes. "BARK" Buckle, Anchor, Rap Device, and Knot is what I was taught in the 80s, but I also learned that every situation dictates what you do. Paying attention is a good first rule to follow. Paying attention is what helps me decide whether or not I need to tie those knots. No matter how much I pay attention, an accident can happen, maybe someone or something above dislodges a rock that knocks me uncontentious and I slide down my ropes until the knots stop me or not. I agree that we hear about more and more accidents happening, but more and more people are climbing. Percentage wise, are accidents up, down, or the same? Are we hearing about more accidents because of the internet? Let's face it, the accident above would most likely have gone unnoticed outside of the local cliff 15 to 20 years ago. Internet forums sure spread news quickly. So yes, pay attention, that is the best tool on your rack to keep you safe. Every situation dictates what you should or shouldn't do.
(This post was edited by guangzhou on Jun 11, 2012, 5:33 AM)
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JAB
Jun 11, 2012, 9:50 AM
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This thread has mostly been about rapping on multi-pitch, but as the accident shows, it might in fact be more important to tie knots when rapping on short single-pitch routes. Let me explain why. On multi-pitch, rappelling is obviuosly serious business, and after completing the climbing part you shift focus to fully concentrate on the rappelling part. You know for sure that the rope does not reach the ground, so paying attention to the rope ends come naturally. However, on single-pitch, you don't really switch focus to rappelling at all. Instead, your focus might be on the TR anchor you just set up (is it extending properly over the edge? no rubbing?), or maybe on the route to your left you are going to try next. On a 40 feet route the rope should easily reach the ground so no need to be super vigilant... Finally, on single-pitch you seldom have any of the risks with knots as in multi-pitch (strong winds, huge epic if you forgot to untie the knots when pulling) so my take on all of this is that you almost always should tie knots in the rope when rapping on single-pitch, but instead make a decision based on the circumstances on multi-pitch.
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Gmburns2000
Jun 11, 2012, 12:50 PM
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guangzhou wrote: I don't know who raps more in one month , but I do know that accidents happen even when precautions are taken. I guess that's why they are called accidents. (I bet my AMGA membership started long before yours did, so let's avoid the "I'm an AMGA Blah Blah Blah." ) Rappeling with clients, or how a guide raps with a clients really depends on the clients, the location, and other factors. If I were guiding an experienced client at a place like the sea cliffs of Arcadia in Maine, I would most likely not tie knots in the end of my ropes and would most likely give the client a fireman belay. The Same Client and I coming off something on White Horse in New Hampshire and there's a good chance I would tie knots. Rapping off some crack on Glacier Point and I'd make the judgement call on the spot. An inexperienced client, I would threat differently but most like still not ties knots in the end of my rope at Arcadia because on how much rope is piled in the base. Me, I avoid rappelling when I can but I still end up on rappel a lot. Sometime it's coming off multi-pitch routes, sometimes single pitch route, sometimes I might be rap-bolting a new route. Sometimes I descending into canyons to check out new climbing of canyoneering potential. (Hot summers in Asia) I decide whether or not I need a knot at that time. More often than not, I don't have a knot, but I still use them sometimes. "BARK" Buckle, Anchor, Rap Device, and Knot is what I was taught in the 80s, but I also learned that every situation dictates what you do. Paying attention is a good first rule to follow. Paying attention is what helps me decide whether or not I need to tie those knots. No matter how much I pay attention, an accident can happen, maybe someone or something above dislodges a rock that knocks me uncontentious and I slide down my ropes until the knots stop me or not. I agree that we hear about more and more accidents happening, but more and more people are climbing. Percentage wise, are accidents up, down, or the same? Are we hearing about more accidents because of the internet? Let's face it, the accident above would most likely have gone unnoticed outside of the local cliff 15 to 20 years ago. Internet forums sure spread news quickly. So yes, pay attention, that is the best tool on your rack to keep you safe. Every situation dictates what you should or shouldn't do. Acadia (no "r," and that´s not just an accent thing) Arcadia is somewhere in Canada.
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JimTitt
Jun 12, 2012, 5:40 AM
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`Arcadia is somewhere in Canada.´ It is a region of Greece. All others are copies.
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Gmburns2000
Jun 12, 2012, 12:23 PM
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JimTitt wrote: `Arcadia is somewhere in Canada.´ It is a region of Greece. All others are copies. I don't really care about the Arcadia as much as I do about the Acadia spelling, so I suppose the Greeks can have it if they want it.
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j_ung
Jun 12, 2012, 7:25 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: JimTitt wrote: `Arcadia is somewhere in Canada.´ It is a region of Greece. All others are copies. I don't really care about the Arcadia as much as I do about the Acadia spelling, so I suppose the Greeks can have it if they want it. They can't afford it.
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j_ung
Jun 12, 2012, 7:25 PM
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Sorry. I couldn't resist.
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Gmburns2000
Jun 12, 2012, 10:23 PM
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j_ung wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: JimTitt wrote: `Arcadia is somewhere in Canada.´ It is a region of Greece. All others are copies. I don't really care about the Arcadia as much as I do about the Acadia spelling, so I suppose the Greeks can have it if they want it. They can't afford it. Despite the fact that I get along with my ex-wife, she's from Salonika and I laughed. She didn't like my "turn the Parthenon into condos" joke a couple of years ago when this all began.
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guangzhou
Jun 13, 2012, 3:21 AM
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All the questions asked and all you can focus on is a typo.
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Gmburns2000
Jun 13, 2012, 12:11 PM
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guangzhou wrote: All the questions asked and all you can focus on is a typo. it was an important one
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blueeyedclimber
Jun 13, 2012, 4:50 PM
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guangzhou wrote: All the questions asked and all you can focus on is a typo. *pssst......Greg grew up in Acadia....*
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JasonsDrivingForce
Jun 13, 2012, 8:43 PM
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To me it sounds like if you tie a knot you are saying “I better take the time to tie a knot now because I might forget or be too busy or unable to check for the end of the rope later”. Anticipating making a mistake is fine if you attempt to make sure that mistake doesn’t actually happen. Thinking about making a mistake then making that mistake only to be rescued by a knot is not actually correcting the root of the issue. Thinking about the fact that you might forget or be too busy to check for the end of the rope later and then making sure you do not forget to check for the end of the rope is fixing the root of the issue. Whether the knot is at the end of the rope or not is largely irrelevant to whether you are climbing safely or not. If you reach the end of the rope without knowing it then you have made a serious mistake whether you live through it or not. If the knot is there then you probably won’t die in that situation. However, it would definitely be a good indication that you are not capable of doing one of the most basic acts in climbing. That is being aware of your situation. But what do I know? I have only repelled once and that was with a guide because I know that I don’t know enough about repelling to do it on my own. The guide tied a knot in the end of the rope but did not explain why he did that. He simply said always be aware of where the end of the rope is. When I am ready to repel on my own I may or may not tie a knot. I won’t decide whether I am going to use a knot until I am in that situation to assess all of the variables that I can see. However, if I do tie a knot then I won’t go into the climb thinking that I am going to trust the knot as the only thing to let me know that I have reached the end of the rope.
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Gmburns2000
Jun 13, 2012, 9:00 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: guangzhou wrote: All the questions asked and all you can focus on is a typo. *pssst......Greg grew up in Acadia....*
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ObviousTroll
Jun 13, 2012, 10:28 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: suprasoup wrote: An interesting question to consider is has ANYBODY ever been saved by knots in their abseil rope? Personally, I've reached my knots before. But I was watching them. It was a '40m' abseil with a doubled 60m rope. With stretch I was 3m off the ground. I just untied the knots and let the rope slip through and then down climbed the last 3m. Yeah. Friends of mine decided that on their wedding day they'd climb up a multi pitch route and get married on the top of said route. The conditions that day were crap. Super frigid and so much fog that you couldn't see more than a few feet in front of you. Anyway, I rapped a subsequent line so that I could take pics of them climbing. On the second rap I see these indistinct shapes fluttering into my view from beyond the fog. "What the hell is that?" I'm wondering to myself. Well I'll tell ya it was pterodactyls man. A whole flock of them. [image]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_5NRRnAsk4ZY/SyfGWhNTZvI/AAAAAAAAAKk/vxNyDzZm_eE/s320/12.png[/image] So here I am hanging on a rope several hundred feet off the ground, blanketed in an impenetrable fog, and somehow a freakin flock of prehistoric flying reptiles found my a$$. So what did they do? I'll tell you what they did. They tore me a new one thats what. They swooped in and bit and pecked and gouged at my face and eyes. Needless to say I tried to fight them off. And like the retard that I am I lost control of the rap in my efforts to avoid being mauled to death by pterodactyls. (I didn't have a prussic back up. Idiotic, I know) [image]http://images.flabber.net/files/lees_verder/assholeoatmeal.jpg[/image] So did I plummeted quickly to my death? Nope. I was on the high friction side of my device and I descended at a snails pace. So much so that I didn't even realize what was happening until I jammed up against the knot I had tied at the end of the rope. Did I thank my lucky stars that I remembered to tie the knot? In hindsight you betcha. But not then when I was dangling at the end of the rope like a stuffed pinata getting murderplexed by a mob of angry avian predators. So after the pterodactyls finished kicking the crap outta me they flew off. I came to a little while later, extricated myself, and ascended back up the rope to the anchors I had rapped past. Got myself into position in time for the bride and groom to climb past. So in answer to your question I have had my a$$ saved by a knot at the end of the rope. Supra Turns out the pterodactyls were actually falcons. But I'm sticking to Pterodactyls. Those suckers were HUGE! Just to save anyone the trouble of doubting you and your story of being attacked by falcons, I'm going to go ahead and remind folks that you have pictures of when you were attacked by a cougar...and not the 50 something in a slinky black dress kind. edit: fixed cheesetits
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sandstone
Jun 14, 2012, 9:56 PM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote: [..]If you reach the end of the rope without knowing it then you have made a serious mistake ... it would definitely be a good indication that you are not capable of doing one of the most basic acts in climbing. That is being aware of your situation.[..] If humans were capable of full situational awareness, irregardless of distraction, fatigue, stress, etc, then accidents might be a truly rare occurrence. The reality is that we are all susceptible to those things, even the very best. If you realize that, and act accordingly, then your chances of surviving your inevitable mishaps improve considerably.
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JasonsDrivingForce
Jun 15, 2012, 1:45 PM
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sandstone wrote: JasonsDrivingForce wrote: [..]If you reach the end of the rope without knowing it then you have made a serious mistake ... it would definitely be a good indication that you are not capable of doing one of the most basic acts in climbing. That is being aware of your situation.[..] If humans were capable of full situational awareness, irregardless of distraction, fatigue, stress, etc, then accidents might be a truly rare occurrence. The reality is that we are all susceptible to those things, even the very best. If you realize that, and act accordingly, then your chances of surviving your inevitable mishaps improve considerably. You are right. I guess what I should have said was “That is being aware of what is most important in your current situation”. If you can’t be aware of everything you should at least be aware of what is critical at that moment.
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