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bearbreeder
Oct 29, 2012, 7:29 AM
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http://www.nzherald.co.nz/...mp;objectid=10843660
Sophie McCauley had been scaling a wall at the Mount Maunganui facility with friends to celebrate her birthday earlier this month.
She was harnessed in but cannot recall if she checked the carabiner as instructed while climbing the wall.
It is believed a piece of webbing became caught in Sophie's carabiner as she climbed a ladder on the wall and she fell 4m on to the concrete floor, breaking her hip and fracturing her foot.
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socalclimber
Oct 29, 2012, 12:27 PM
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That place should be closed.
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mheyman
Oct 29, 2012, 1:08 PM
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I'd want accurate information before I made that decision. No one can take back what has already happened; and ensuring better safety standards might be effective in the future.
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socalclimber
Oct 29, 2012, 9:28 PM
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Well the owner of the Gym clearly stated they took the pads off the floor because people were being lowered to fast. The figured that if they took the pads out, people would slow down their lowering of partners.
Too me that's just stupid. If people are lowering their partners far to fast, the gym staff needs to deal with that issue.
Sounds to me like gross mismanagement.
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mheyman
Oct 29, 2012, 9:58 PM
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Honestly I'm not arguing that this isn't a case of gross mismanagement, just that I’d want to hear all the facts, accurate facts before I made that determination. I feel there is a significant difference between ignorance and negligence.
However needless and unfortunate this accident may have been no one can take back what has already happened; and ensuring better safety standards might be effective in the future. If not and the business is truly at fault, then I’d agree the place should be closed regales of the exact cause.
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socalclimber
Oct 29, 2012, 10:20 PM
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No problems. Just my observations.
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guangzhou
Oct 30, 2012, 12:17 PM
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I have to agree, a lot of facts not there from a climber's point of view. I know reporters aren't climbers, so I understand.
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Aequitas
Oct 30, 2012, 6:02 PM
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Hey at least they gave her a candy bar and a voucher. haha
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JasonsDrivingForce
Oct 30, 2012, 8:27 PM
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I don’t know what happened at that specific gym. However, I do wonder how affective pads really are when the fall distance surpasses normal bouldering heights.
We had an unfortunate accident with a young climber that broke his arm at our local bouldering competition. He slipped on the final hold and fell onto the padless flooring. I saw him as he lifted his arm and it was literally in an L shape.
So how affective are these padless floors? They seem to have less than 1 inch of give as you walk on them. Not nearly the 2 inches of compression that some pads can have.
I am just curious about how affective pads are in reducing fracture injuries as opposed to flooring that gives a little. I always feel more comfortable when I climb over a pad but they definitely do not always take the bite out of falling.
I hope both of these young kids recover quickly. It was one of the worst experiences of my life seeing that young boy realize what had happened to his arm.
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guangzhou
Oct 31, 2012, 2:01 AM
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My gym has no pads, we teach people to move the bouldering mats into place. the base of our walls have a 1 inch thick rubber mat that is half a meter wide.
Moving the mats helps people stay focused on safety.
I've never liked gym where the entire floor is padded. Just doesn't make sense to me in general. I really believe it gives people a false sense of security.
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notapplicable
Oct 31, 2012, 4:09 AM
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guangzhou wrote: I've never liked gym where the entire floor is padded. Just doesn't make sense to me in general. I really believe it gives people a false sense of security.
They sure are comfortable to lounge around on though.
(This post was edited by notapplicable on Oct 31, 2012, 4:10 AM)
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patto
Oct 31, 2012, 4:22 AM
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guangzhou wrote: I've never liked gym where the entire floor is padded. Just doesn't make sense to me in general. I really believe it gives people a false sense of security.
All the gyms around me are like this. The consequences of a dropped climber are rarely death in such circumstances. Dropped climbers do occasionally occur.
The death is almost inevitable if a dropped climber strikes his/her head onto concrete.
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Syd
Oct 31, 2012, 6:38 AM
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Gravel is far better than pads. I saw a beginner fall 7 m onto his back in a local gym. Not a scratch ! However gravel is now banned here.
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bearbreeder
Oct 31, 2012, 6:44 AM
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all this talk about grounding in the gym is quite disconcerting 
IMO if there is a grounding in a gym ... then it has serious issues with the training of its members/staff and/or supervision of the floor ...
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guangzhou
Oct 31, 2012, 7:34 AM
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notapplicable wrote: They sure are comfortable to lounge around on though.
Yet one more reason to not have padded floors.
I have to agree, if people are decking, the solution isn't better floor padding, it's better training and awareness of climbing safety.
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gothcopter
Oct 31, 2012, 3:03 PM
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guangzhou wrote: I've never liked gym where the entire floor is padded. Just doesn't make sense to me in general. I really believe it gives people a false sense of security.
Are you sure the sense of security is false?
Let's try a fun experiment. Go into your bedroom and do a nice big belly flop onto your bed. Now go outside and do a nice big belly flop onto your driveway. See the difference?
The plain truth is that human beings are a major component of the safety systems in climbing, and human beings are unreliable. I'd wager that pretty much every major gym open for more than a couple of years has had at least one climber dropped from some distance.
I've been to a climbing facility at the other end of the "safety spectrum". In order to top rope, two belayers were required. One normal belayer, and then a back-up belayer with an ATC to belay the brake strand of the primary belayer's belay. And of course the belayer was required to anchor himself to the ground for a top rope belay, regardless of weight difference. Surprise surprise, very few "real" climbers ever went there more than once.
Much like guardrails on the highway, padded floors are a relatively cheap and reliable way to mitigate an eventuality that shouldn't -- but in all likelihood will -- occur.
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jomagam
Oct 31, 2012, 4:22 PM
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guangzhou wrote: notapplicable wrote: They sure are comfortable to lounge around on though. Yet one more reason to not have padded floors. I have to agree, if people are decking, the solution isn't better floor padding, it's better training and awareness of climbing safety.
Padded floors make everything so much easier. Just finished a boulder problem with your shoes 7 feet above the ground ? Just jump down ! Falling at the start of a route would be awkward ? (Big swing because you're climbing on TR and the route wanders, or leading and you don't want to fall onto the first bolt). Ask your belayer to spot you and keep you loose.
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notapplicable
Nov 1, 2012, 12:17 AM
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jomagam wrote: guangzhou wrote: notapplicable wrote: They sure are comfortable to lounge around on though. Yet one more reason to not have padded floors. I have to agree, if people are decking, the solution isn't better floor padding, it's better training and awareness of climbing safety. Padded floors make everything so much easier. Just finished a boulder problem with your shoes 7 feet above the ground ? Just jump down ! Falling at the start of a route would be awkward ? (Big swing because you're climbing on TR and the route wanders, or leading and you don't want to fall onto the first bolt). Ask your belayer to spot you and keep you loose.
^True story^
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rgold
Nov 1, 2012, 4:24 AM
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I think socal nailed it and almost everyone else missed the point. Whatever you think about padded floors, removing padding because people were lowering too fast is a ridiculous "solution" to the need to control dangerous behavior.
That's a quote from the owner and if it is accurate, I'd agree with socal that running a climbing gym is not what that guy should be doing.
As for padded floors, it is clear that people get dropped in gyms. Given the level of inattention and/or incompetence that entails, it is also clear that people will not always pull mats over or will position them incorrectly. From this it follows that sooner or later, someone is gonna hit the concrete hard. As an owner, you can gamble it won't happen and you might be ok, but it sure sounds like a bad bet to me.
I feel really bad for the girl, who no matter how you look at it is a victim who will quite possibly be paying for this little birthday outing for life. At least she's still alive and not a paraplegic.
I think a misleading aura of "safety" has grown up around climbing that makes many people take it far too casually, and this is especially toxic when a young person with little or no ability to form judgements on their own buys into the safety myth without realizing how seriously they have to take all the procedures and how things can go wrong even so.
Even if there is no legal liability, I think there is a certain moral failing in not being crystal clear about how fragile your safety is in climbing and how relatively easy it is to cross line and end up in mortal danger.
(This post was edited by rgold on Nov 1, 2012, 4:40 AM)
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guangzhou
Nov 1, 2012, 4:31 AM
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I understand all thee excuses mentioned above, but I still believe padded floors provide a false sense of security.
Bouldering areas are different all together, I am referring to roped climbing areas.
Without padded floors on overhanging top-rope, move a bouldering pad and get a potter. We have a few 8 feet by 8ft bouldering mats that can be moved anywhere needed by members. They learn how to use pad defectively to protect themselves while belaying or climbing.
Teaching people to be safe will prevent accidents.
Falling onto the first bolt, a good belayer knows how to keep a climber from hitting the ground. If the belayer can't do this, you shouldn't trust them to belay you in the first place. A padded floor won't make them better at their task, to keep you off the ground.
No clipped into a auto belay device or tied properly means the system wasn't double checked correctly. I feel bad that you fell, but I see it as being over confident in your ability and trust of the autobelay device.
I sell auto belay devices to gyms, accidents with them are not more common than other accident with belayer errors. Proper training on how to correctly use and double check the device will save and protect more lives than a padded floor. A padded floor just adds to the comfort level and make the place feel safer so people are less likely to double check systems.
People are to quick to trust others with their life. Instead of taking a few minutes to double check their partner and themselves, they rush to get one more route or one more lap in.
In our gym, one staff member minimum is required to be the floor safety any time someone is climbing. If they notice someone taking short cuts in procedure, not using correct and standard commands, not double checking the system, they make those people start over from step one. Forcing people to do things right every-time has helped us, and now members force each other to double check.
padded floors are not as helpful as teaching and enforcing safe climbing practices within a climbing gym.
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bearbreeder
Nov 1, 2012, 6:34 AM
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the main issue i have is the attachment by a single locker presumably as the only point ...
while i understand it was a 3 stage locker, as demonstrated, newbies can easily get clothing caught in it or other such that prevents a proper closure
there is also a failure of proper checks for people who are totally new ... can you really depend on them to perform all the checks right off the bat? ... IMO there should have been a staff member for a birthday party for kids to do a quick check for every kid in the system
on the autobelays in my gym there are 2 3-stage lockers, and for bday party with kids there is a staff member/members to do a check i believe
kids especially need additional supervision, everyone does stupid stuff as a kid 
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socalclimber
Nov 1, 2012, 10:43 AM
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I still find it odd that the few responding to this thread don't really even get the point. It has nothing to do with what you think about pads or cement floors.
The single and only pertinent point is that apparently mismanagement of the facility was the likely cause of this accident.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Nov 1, 2012, 10:49 AM)
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robdotcalm
Nov 1, 2012, 6:21 PM
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Guanzhou wrote
In reply to: No clipped into a auto belay device or tied properly means the system wasn't double checked correctly. I feel bad that you fell, but I see it as being over confident in your ability and trust of the autobelay device. I sell auto belay devices to gyms, accidents with them are not more common than other accident with belayer errors. Proper training on how to correctly use and double check the device will save and protect more lives than a padded floor. A padded floor just adds to the comfort level and make the place feel safer so people are less likely to double check systems. ……. padded floors are not as helpful as teaching and enforcing safe climbing practices within a climbing gym.
Specious moralizing about how why accidents shouldn’t happen and therefore easy-to-implement safety procedures, e.g., padded floors, are not needed, is a dangerous attitude. Accidents will happen and reasonable procedures to mitigate the results are just common sense. As can be seen in the thread about my accident and the links therein, many gym accidents include safe and experienced climbers who, indeed, made a mistake. Your assumption of human perfection upon proper training is unrealistic.
Cheers,
Rob.calm
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skellie
Nov 1, 2012, 8:47 PM
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The number of near-misses I've seen in MOST gyms I've been to scares the crap out of me.
At my current gym, Stone Age in Albuquerque, I regularly have tiny little kids running under me while I'm bouldering. I actually tweaked my back last week as I fell and rolled around in mid-air to miss one of them. I attempted to calmly confront one of the "coaches" about this and he got all defensive and argued with me in front of the kids. Most of them have the attitude that "they're just kids, they don't know better." To which I reply, "Well then they shouldn't be doing a safety-oriented sport like climbing."
ALSO, the "coaches" regularly have the kids warm-up, or have "coaching sessions" LITERALLY right under the roof with people sport climbing ABOVE THEM! I've seen quite a number of climbers whip off that roof and come within 6 ft. of the ground. Why not take the kids to a SAFE part of the gym?
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JasonsDrivingForce
Nov 1, 2012, 8:59 PM
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I definitely agree that padded floors are not a solution for making roped climbing safer. However, are padded floors a good alternate for large crash pads for bouldering?
I have seen several gyms switch to using a pathless padded floor and ditching the large crash pads altogether. Is that safer? Will large indoor crash pads prevent broken bones like the one I witnessed over padded floors?
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bearbreeder
Nov 1, 2012, 9:16 PM
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the problem with that as mentioned is that it can set a bad precedent ... climbers start taking things for granted because they know there is more "gear" to save their azzes
im not saying its right or wrong for the gyms ... but once a climber moves outside, the habits will tend to carry over for the first part ... will you have big cushy pads outside?
at the end of the day nothing is foolproof ... its up to the climber and staff to insure that there are no mistakes, and if there is something went very wrong on someone's end ...
or in the new case of new climbers who dont know any better ... more onus is on the gym IMO ...
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dagibbs
Nov 2, 2012, 3:48 AM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote: I have seen several gyms switch to using a pathless padded floor and ditching the large crash pads altogether. Is that safer? Will large indoor crash pads prevent broken bones like the one I witnessed over padded floors?
My local gym switched away from crash pads to a padded floor. I asked the manager about this, and he said that in his experience (and he is quite experienced, travels as a problem-setter, and previously bouldered at the top of the national level in Canada for a few years), the most common injury he'd seen was people rolling and breaking or badly spraining their ankles on the edges of crash pads. He felt that a proper floor, rather than movable pads, was by far the safer choice.
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cracklover
Nov 2, 2012, 3:44 PM
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skellie wrote: The number of near-misses I've seen in MOST gyms I've been to scares the crap out of me. At my current gym, Stone Age in Albuquerque, I regularly have tiny little kids running under me while I'm bouldering. I actually tweaked my back last week as I fell and rolled around in mid-air to miss one of them. I attempted to calmly confront one of the "coaches" about this and he got all defensive and argued with me in front of the kids. Most of them have the attitude that "they're just kids, they don't know better." To which I reply, "Well then they shouldn't be doing a safety-oriented sport like climbing." ALSO, the "coaches" regularly have the kids warm-up, or have "coaching sessions" LITERALLY right under the roof with people sport climbing ABOVE THEM! I've seen quite a number of climbers whip off that roof and come within 6 ft. of the ground. Why not take the kids to a SAFE part of the gym?
That's horrendous. I've never seen anything like that in any of the gyms I've climbed in over the years. If it were my local gym, I would make a big stink about it. And if the owner didn't change things, I'd go to the parents of those kids to inform them that the gym is willfully putting them in harm's way.
GO
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skellie
Nov 2, 2012, 3:56 PM
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I actually sent the owner an email right after I posted this, and he said they'll discuss it at their next meeting, and he'd like to talk to me more about it. I was impressed with the prompt reply, I'm just surprised these problems hadn't been brought up already!
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wonderwoman
Nov 2, 2012, 5:46 PM
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guangzhou wrote: I really believe it gives people a false sense of security.
People have made the same arguments about wearing seat belts, driving larger cars, wearing helmets (in a wide variety of sports), and even handing out condoms. Somehow I doubt that padded floors promote reckless behavior. However, they are a lot softer on the skull upon impact.
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TradEddie
Nov 3, 2012, 12:22 AM
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Our gym seems diligent about training, and follows up with regular observation of belayer and climber behavior, yet I know of at least three people who would probably not be alive today if the floor hadn't been padded.
On the other hand, when I started climbing there, the floors were just that loose recycled tire rubber. Bouldering over that rubber was so nice, the landings were great, but once they changed to a padded floor with additional mats, after a few close calls, I stopped bouldering.
Eliminate all seatbelts, airbags etc on cars, they instill a false sense of security; instead, put a foot long steel spike in the center of every steering wheel...
TE
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Marylandclimber
Nov 6, 2012, 12:10 PM
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Why was she using a carabiner on her harness in the first place?
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guangzhou
Nov 7, 2012, 2:58 AM
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Because automatic belay devices are equipped and designed to be used with them.
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NewZealander
Mar 4, 2013, 6:35 AM
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It was only a matter of time before someone died in New Zealand. Accidents:
•2006: Non-fatal accident in October 2006 involving a climbing wall facility. The action resulted in a conviction, fine of $8,000 and reparation of $1,374. (NZ Department of Labour Stocktake)
•2008: Non-fatal accident in December 2008 at an indoor rock climbing facility. A guilty plea has been entered and sentencing is scheduled for February 2010. (NZ Department of Labour Stocktake)
•2010: 13 year old girl on a school trip, fell 8.8m while top rope rock climbing at an indoor climbing wall. She badly fractured her ankle and cracked her pelvis. (NZ OSH: Hazard Management Bulletin)
•2012: 14 year old girl (my daugher) falls 4 metres onto bare concrete at the ‘Rock House’ Mount Maunganui, resulting in a broken hip plus five breaks and ligament damage in foot. (Bay of Plenty Times Article)
•2013: Death at Tree Adventures. Man dies falling from ropes course, 3 March 2013. http://www.3news.co.nz/Default.aspx?TabId=423&articleID=288796&ref=RLrotator&ce2637=1#comment
People conveniently forget about the months and months of rehabilitation these accidents cause, not to mention the next few years in which doctors will need to keep checking on my child (the 14 year old) who may still require a complete hip replacement!
New Zealand draft indoor rock climbing guidelines have just come out for public consultation until 15 March 2013. They can be found here: http://www.supportadventure.co.nz/activity-safety-guidelines/current-asgs
What is also not good enough is that the Ambulance Service and ACC do not report accidents directly to the Department of Labour due to the Privacy Act so therefore DOL cannot build up a case history of an unsafe place. I have been told that DOL often find out about accidents through the newspaper. In my daughters case, I myself phoned the DOL to report the accident so they could investigate.
An indoor rock climbing/climbing on artificial structures industry symposium is being held in Palmerston North, New Zealand, on Friday 8 March 2013.
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Syd
Mar 4, 2013, 11:10 AM
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robdotcalm wrote: Accidents will happen and reasonable procedures to mitigate the results are just common sense.
Unfortunately common sense is often uncommon. At the Rockhouse indoor gym, Sydney Australia, unleashed dogs are permitted to run around inside the gym. Try belaying with a large dog attacking you ! Just nuts !
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theextremist04
Mar 5, 2013, 5:51 AM
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I'm truly sorry about your daughter, but five accidents in seven years seems well within the bounds of being reasonable. Things are going to happen, Murphy's Law still prevails.
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NewZealander
Mar 5, 2013, 6:54 AM
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You quite obviously don’t know all the facts surrounding my daughter’s case. Murphy’s Law is one thing; negligence is another thing entirely – especially when children are involved. My point was that these are the only cases that have been officially reported. I’m hearing about many other cases that have gone unreported due to the archaic system in place.
As a commenter on the death that just occurred wrote: Whether or not these high wire activity businesses provide a good briefing is only partially relevant. The thing is, your loved one (often your child!) will be high in the trees having to make hundreds of correct decisions throughout the course so as to keep themselves clipped into the wire system. They will not be supervised whilst they do this by staff - they are on their own. Your child will be nervous, excited, becoming physically tired, distracted by their mates - so many things to lead to forgetting to clip in and slipping. They are on their own and I find it terrifying to think about.
I worked as an adventure cave guide and ropes guide for years and you are absolutely supervising each participant to make sure they are clipped into the safety systems. Would be the same with bungy etc. Then along comes these high wire forest businesses and suddenly it's somehow OK to send the clients off into incredibly risky situations high in the trees on the premise they will remember to clip in because they have been told too! http://www.3news.co.nz/Man-dies-falling-from-ropes-course/tabid/423/articleID/288796/Default.aspx?ref=RLrotator
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lena_chita
Moderator
Mar 6, 2013, 7:04 PM
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NewZealander wrote: You quite obviously don’t know all the facts surrounding my daughter’s case. Murphy’s Law is one thing; negligence is another thing entirely – especially when children are involved. My point was that these are the only cases that have been officially reported. I’m hearing about many other cases that have gone unreported due to the archaic system in place.
I am very sorry about your daughter, and I hope her recovery goes well. Obviously, we only know what was publicly reported.
NewZealander wrote: As a commenter on the death that just occurred wrote: Whether or not these high wire activity businesses provide a good briefing is only partially relevant. The thing is, your loved one (often your child!) will be high in the trees having to make hundreds of correct decisions throughout the course so as to keep themselves clipped into the wire system. They will not be supervised whilst they do this by staff - they are on their own. Your child will be nervous, excited, becoming physically tired, distracted by their mates - so many things to lead to forgetting to clip in and slipping. They are on their own and I find it terrifying to think about. I worked as an adventure cave guide and ropes guide for years and you are absolutely supervising each participant to make sure they are clipped into the safety systems. Would be the same with bungy etc. Then along comes these high wire forest businesses and suddenly it's somehow OK to send the clients off into incredibly risky situations high in the trees on the premise they will remember to clip in because they have been told too! http://www.3news.co.nz/...t.aspx?ref=RLrotator
The death didn't involve a child, it involved a MAN, if I understand correctly? Anybody's accidental death is very sad, but... at some point people are expected to take the responsibility for their own actions and their own safety.
Nobody forced this guy, or any of the other people who were at this popular "high-wire playground" to go there. None of the equipment malfunctioned. No cables snapped, no weight-bearing structures collapsed. He made a mistake that he was cautioned against, and he paid dearly for it. It is very sad for his family. But it is not anybody's fault.
This is no different than driving too fast on an icy road, or forgetting to unplug the hair drier before dropping it into a tub of water, or neglecting to change the batteries in the smoke detector. These are all the things that we have been told we need to pay attention to, and are expected to do without someone holding our hand every day and checking that we actually are being safe, and all of them are potentially fatal in some circumstances.
What would you like to happen? Take a guide with every person who gets onto these via ferrata-type activities, so the guide would be responsible into clipping every client in, and double-checking?
As a parent I understand the anxiety a parent feels when the kids participate in a somewhat risky extra-curricular activity. But, as a parent, you also have the right and the responsibility to keep your child from participating in something you view as truly unsafe, and also you have the responsibility of teaching them that safety should be taken seriously.
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NewZealander
Sep 13, 2013, 12:41 AM
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In October 2012 a fall of 4 metres onto a concrete floor during a rock climbing exercise at The Rock House in Triton Avenue, Mount Maunganui, New Zealand, left my daughter with injuries constituting ‘severe harm’ resulting in her confinement to a wheelchair for four months. This is our journey.
http://boppisces.wordpress.com/2013/09/11/rock-house-blues-by-debbie-mccauley/
(This post was edited by NewZealander on Sep 13, 2013, 4:02 AM)
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NewZealander
Oct 22, 2013, 12:51 AM
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And yet another: Turangi firm fined for climbing wall fall [http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rotorua-daily-post/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503438&objectid=11143647&ref=rss]
(This post was edited by NewZealander on Oct 22, 2013, 12:52 AM)
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lena_chita
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Oct 22, 2013, 5:23 PM
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sackfulobadgers
Oct 27, 2013, 1:28 AM
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I assume people don't know this but you can't sue for negligence in New Zealand. While you can argue whether that's good or bad it does lead to more accidents, the workplace injury and death rate is around 4 times higher in NZ than Aus.
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NewZealander
Oct 29, 2015, 4:37 AM
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http://www.nzherald.co.nz/...mp;objectid=11534547
WORKSAFE NZ has apologised to a Tauranga family after a teenager was unfairly blamed for an accident that left her in a wheelchair for four months. Three years after Sophie McCauley fell 4m from a Mount Maunganui indoor rock wall, her mother Debbie McCauley has uncovered the truth about the botched investigation done by the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (now WorkSafe).
A spokesperson told the Bay of Plenty Times Weekend the investigation "did not adequately examine the health and safety legal responsibilities of the climbing centre and contained inconsistent conclusions as to culpability. We also apologised for the additional stress that must have been placed on the McCauley family as the investigation report appears to have unfairly attributed blame for the accident to Sophie. There was no evidence that Sophie was to blame for the accident."
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