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gawd
Jan 19, 2003, 10:21 PM
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lynne,
what is that supposed to mean? i care little to what these people have to say. i was expousing my opinion on the subject.
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lynne
Jan 19, 2003, 10:29 PM
Post #52 of 59
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obviously.
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gawd
Jan 19, 2003, 10:32 PM
Post #53 of 59
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lynne,
way to make a comment and then not back it up. please enlighten me to why post is not valid?
if you have no comment dont make one.
thanks!
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lynne
Jan 19, 2003, 10:42 PM
Post #54 of 59
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I didn't say your post was not valid, but it certainly didn't add a thing to the discussion, IMHO. Reading long threads before you shoot your wad tends to make your posts more thoughtful, relevent, and perhaps even more insightful.
You missed the point of the thread. "The leader must not fall" doesn't mean that the leader will never fall, it simply means that the trad leader will not be casual about falling on gear. Big difference. Also, there's good stuff in this thread from experienced trad leaders - well worth your time to read, unless you're here merely to "espouse your opinion" and not actually contribute or /gasp/ learn something.
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gawd
Jan 19, 2003, 10:46 PM
Post #55 of 59
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you should be causal about falling. falling when you are scared tends to mean your body is not relaxed and you are not ready to fall. people whom fall rigid will less likely allow their bodies to act naturally and will at times result in injury.
just as when skiing never fight your fall, but go with it. 80% od acl injuries are from people attempting to fight the fall.
so you should fall causually and should know how to fall. to always have in your mind you should not fall is ludicris and not healthy to a long and successful climbing carrer.
"fear" of falling is just as bad as not knowing how to fall. be ready for it.
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lynne
Jan 19, 2003, 10:52 PM
Post #56 of 59
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gawd, if you had read the post you would get it. Clearly you still do not. Sheese.
Peace & out.
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krustyklimber
Jan 20, 2003, 10:50 PM
Post #57 of 59
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Gawd makes many wonderful points on this page, but I don't think everyone has to apply that to trad
the leader should fall.
Yes, once in a while you should fall off a route... thats what sport routes and gym climbing is for.
why spend all that monies on gear if you never plan to use it.
So that while I am trad climbing I can feel somewhat safe about not hitting the ground, knowing my second will not take giant swings (because I have protected for him as well)... and that just in case I do happen to fall I will probably be caught by my gear. But for myself most of the gear money expended was for big wallin'.
if you do not fall, then you are not challenging yourself. television is prolly suited better for you.
Again, I agree with that, and I often push myself to the point of failure. But I do it when I feel safe enough for my own personal comfort... something which for all of us is measured differently... I do it on topropes, sportroutes, the gym etc. I think the 'puter is more suited to me than the T.V.
if you do not fall, how will you learn to fall in a safe and correct manner? most injuries occuring while falling are from inexperienced climbers.
But this does not mean that one has to do it on trad routes.
When I was roadracing motorcycles I didn't get my practice falls in on my fast expensive roadracers (at over 100mph it was to big of a calculated risk), instead I did it at 10 or 20 mph in the trails, doing considerably less damage to body and equimpment.
I think this is a good anology, no?
falling is an inherant part of climbing.
Yup
rock climbing is meant to be a challenge, learn to challenge yourself. if you are afraid to fall, then learn how. this fear will only ever keep you from ever finding your true limits.
It's getting redundant, but you don't have to learn to do this on trad routes.
mentality can be won and lost. fight the good fight.
I agree that it can be won, and once you have the skills (or the abilities to win if you like), earned on safer ground, you can take them out and really use them.
Much the way you have.
you should be causal about falling. falling when you are scared tends to mean your body is not relaxed and you are not ready to fall. people whom fall rigid will less likely allow their bodies to act naturally and will at times result in injury.
One should never be "casual" about falling, familiar with yes, but never casual... that leads to disaster.
so you should fall causually and should know how to fall. to always have in your mind you should not fall is ludicris and not healthy to a long and successful climbing carrer.
Here is where I have to completely disagree... I have been climbing for most of your life, ending up with what has compiled to be a long, fun, happy and resonably healthy climbing career...
I have yet to fall onto a piece of trad gear on a trad lead...
All of us have different "calculators" we used to calculate the risks and the consequences of a fall... and each of us needs to learn how to listen and to converse, like Gawd has, with it and to be able to tell that little voice to "shut up, and suck it up."
Sometimes this is a good thing for any true climbing spirit... other times the little voice in your "calculator" is totally right and then discrection is needed.
I hope Gawd, and all of you, can find the discretion as easily as he finds his courage when he needs it...
Jeff
Stupid html
[ This Message was edited by: krustyklimber on 2003-01-20 15:00 ]
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gawd
Jan 20, 2003, 11:23 PM
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pappy,
i have climbed routes down in tenn and alabamer. and i have fallen on hard slab. i would tend not to want to make it a habit, but when pushing yourself it happens.
i have also climbed hard slab in yosemite and darrigton.
what is your point?
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kirkbrode
Jan 22, 2003, 3:35 AM
Post #59 of 59
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Registered: Jan 22, 2003
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"leader must not fall" is valid in some situations and not in others for me.
if a fall will likely result in injury or death, "the leader must not fall" concept is valid provided he/she is interested in self preservation, I would think.
otherwise... make make good placements, evaluate the risk, climb above and risk a fall if you feel the fall will be safe. if you deem the fall to be unsafe and are not willing to accept that risk, come down.
If I evaluate the fall as being safe, "the leader must not fall" does not apply for me.
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