I was at Devil's Lake, WI last fall and we came to a spot with a college group there also. They had a girl belaying in a very awkward way:

Her brake hand was upside-down above the belay device, parallel to her guide hand. This might have been ok with a self-locking device, but this was a conventional tube device. There was no way she would have been able to catch the guy if he fell (luckily he didn't)
When she took in slack she would pull up the rope with the brake hand, let go of it, and then move it back down to the previous unsafe position. The only time during the climb hat she actually locked the rope was at the end to lower him down.

I told her it was dangerous and said why, but she told me "it's ok; that's how I was taught!"

well ok then...

I didn't say anything else after that, but at least now she knows that if she ever does drop a climber she should consider checking her method.
I'm not blaming her btw; I'm blaming whoever taught her. That person obviously didn't care or didn't know themself how to do this safely.

Anyone else seen this kind of thing before? I don't usually point out to people things like this, but holy crap this was bad. I mean, this was pretty much what I was thinking when I saw her belaying like this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxRX6LXDpWs

While you can do her method it is still inproper and she should not be letting go of the brake...ever. She was complacent. That attitude is born in the gym.

I was at Devil's Lake, WI last fall and we came to a spot with a college group there also. They had a girl belaying in a very awkward way:

Her brake hand was upside-down above the belay device, parallel to her guide hand. This might have been ok with a self-locking device, but this was a conventional tube device. There was no way she would have been able to catch the guy if he fell (luckily he didn't)
When she took in slack she would pull up the rope with the brake hand, let go of it, and then move it back down to the previous unsafe position. The only time during the climb hat she actually locked the rope was at the end to lower him down.

I told her it was dangerous and said why, but she told me "it's ok; that's how I was taught!"

well ok then...

I didn't say anything else after that, but at least now she knows that if she ever does drop a climber she should consider checking her method.
I'm not blaming her btw; I'm blaming whoever taught her. That person obviously didn't care or didn't know themself how to do this safely.

Anyone else seen this kind of thing before? I don't usually point out to people things like this, but holy crap this was bad. I mean, this was pretty much what I was thinking when I saw her belaying like this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxRX6LXDpWs

"hands on rope palms up and pinkies toward the belay device

She was probably taught in a gym, on a grigri, by an idiot. Its just that dumbshits don't know that not all skills transfer seamlessly.

Fixed that for you.

That's a shitty approach to using a gri-gri too.

I had to read that 4 times to get what you're trying to say, and then gave up.

But as for gym attitudes of letting go. My favourite game in the gym is finding the dude (or girl) with their friend hanging, grigri cammed shut, hands in their pockets, and "slap the cam" on the grigri.

The trick to be avoid being a totall asshole is to come up behind them, and grab the brake end of the rope before doing the slap. This way, they won't deck, should the grigri not engage (a 0.0001% chance of happening). The sneaky approach is awesome too, because it really makes the idiot belayer shit their pants, and hopefully learn a lesson.

I had to read that 4 times to get what you're trying to say, and then I gave up. *FACEPALM*

That sounds like it. Her brake/bottom hand was up above the device next to her guide/top hand in that position you just described (upright) So if she did have to lock off to catch a fall her brake hand would have turned backwards, making the climber very awkward to hold.
To add another detail I forgot to mention, the thumb on her brake hand hasn't even curled around the rope!
She managed to lower him from that position anyway.

I'm heading to the gym later today. If I remember I'll take my camera and get a friend to take a picture of me on belay as she was so I can show you guys.

Pinch and slide is perfectly acceptable if done correctly, nothing wrong with the brake hand in either orientation.

You could have said you agreed with the OP in this thread instead of starting a new one.

In case you care, JT512 prefers the approach of your girl (presuming it's done correctly of course) for sport-climbing with a gri-gri since he finds there's less risk of being short-roped on long clips.

Guessing that's not much of an issue for Devil's Lake though; sounds like a case of someone inappropriately transferring a technique to a different context, as others have suggested. Was her partner top-roping or trad-leading, and what was belay device? I'm guessing not sport-leading at Devil's Lake.

FWIW I was taught the thumbs-up method by a guide service for top-roping with Gri-Gri outdoors.

maybe she was taught with a munter, and did not notice that tubers don't work that way... (I see that more often than I like!)

She was sat down and was positioned exactly like this:

err... ok I'm new on this forum. Could someone please tell me how I upload an image in a post? I have it, I just don't know how to do this. (I tried placing the [IMAGE] tags around the URL but it didn't work.)

[image]http://somesite.tld/images/somerandompath/maybesomethingelse/belay.jpg[/image]

From what it sounds like (though it sounds rather hard to understand) that might be the case, but it was my understanding that the munter is rather uncommon in the USA?

fun fact: The Austrian alpine clubs official way of teaching the munter hitch is to operate it with the brake hand below the device (just like one would do with an ATC), in order to avoid the scenario described above.

qwert

If you have uploaded the image somewhere (flickr, some other image host, fbook etc) you need to get the images full adress (right click on the image, "copy image adress" or something) and place it in the tags like so:

Code

Or just post the url, and someone might embed it for you.

Or just attach it to your post and host the image on this site (the attachment box below your text box).

qwert

This is what I ried doing but I didn't see an image in the Preview Post.
I uploaded the image to PicasaWeb. I also tried doing it directly from the SD card by opening the file with IE, but I still didn't see anything.

Yes, it probably would have been acceptable for a lead climb, and if she was using a self-locking device.
However, this was not the case. Her partner was top-roping, and she was using an ATC belay device.

She was sat down and was positioned exactly like this:

err... ok I'm new on this forum. Could someone please tell me how I upload an image in a post? I have it, I just don't know how to do this. (I tried placing the [IMAGE] tags around the URL but it didn't work.)

Ok, here we go! Thanks for the help guys!

So, like I said this is exactly how she was positioned for the entire climb, using a ATC belay device with the climber on a toprope. I know I wouldn't trust anyone who belays like this with an ATC on a toprope. Maybe the guy she was belaying was the one who taught her since he was fine about it?

[image]https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-J-yhU3r0UnQ/UXCq484BP_I/AAAAAAAAAGg/Q3DM3VZoMU0/s668/IMAG0058.JPG[/image]
^ How not to belay. (there wasn't anyone on the other end of this rope when this picture was taken)

This should clear things up for anyone who might have misunderstood what I was trying to describe (I wouldn't blame you- it's kind of complicated to explain!)

Anyway, the point of this thread was to say that belaying like this with this setup isn't really a good idea.

Ok, here we go! Thanks for the help guys!

So, like I said this is exactly how she was positioned for the entire climb, using a ATC belay device with the climber on a toprope. I know I wouldn't trust anyone who belays like this with an ATC on a toprope. Maybe the guy she was belaying was the one who taught her since he was fine about it?

[image]https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-J-yhU3r0UnQ/UXCq484BP_I/AAAAAAAAAGg/Q3DM3VZoMU0/s668/IMAG0058.JPG[/image]
^ How not to belay. (there wasn't anyone on the other end of this rope when this picture was taken)

This should clear things up for anyone who might have misunderstood what I was trying to describe (I wouldn't blame you anyway- it's kind of complicated to explain!)

Anyway, the point of this thread was to say that belaying like this with this setup isn't really a good idea.

...fun fact: The Austrian alpine clubs official way of teaching the munter hitch is to operate it with the brake hand below the device (just like one would do with an ATC), in order to avoid the scenario described above.
qwert

You can't always rely on the thought that you're " ready to catch a fall by throwing the right hand down".
True, with most climbers I've belayed I can see what they're doing and can predict what's going to happen.
However, that's not always how it is.
I can understand this if they're moving and you have no choice but to raise the lower hand, but if they're not moving it's best to keep it locked.

If you think that this is a safe way of belaying, that's fine. I've just been unaware of it and have only seen this person belaying like this with an ATC. Everyone else I've ever seen, except some of those who new to belaying, have always kept the rope locked when the climber is stationary. I guess people are more commonly being taught like that now.

The reason I was thinking that this was an unsafe method (and still do) is because the belayer can't guarantee that they will always lock the rope when the climber falls; whereas if it's already locked when there climber isn't moving they don't have to.

In my opinion it's best to be safe than sorry.

Thanks budman for explaining why some climbers do this.

Nothing wrong with the method for sport climbing where you can see your climber but it does require you to be attentive and react appropriately. Of course, your belayer should do that anyway. I belay like that for TR because I find it much easier and on TR I don't have to worry about my climber free-falling before the rope comes tight. Perhaps when you have more experience you'll develop a different opinion about it.

If I could I'd give you all free bacon for accidentally wasting your time!

ATC-style devices are, I think, headed for extinction.