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redlude97
Jun 5, 2013, 9:10 PM
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cracklover wrote: redlude97 wrote: That does seem really awkward without any additional benefits. Do you have a video or something showing this method? A video? No. Awkward? No, it's not. It's almost identical to the older method of PAS. GO
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Dml
Jun 5, 2013, 10:59 PM
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Thanks Curt. I had read that thread, and appreciate what it says. It doesn't really discuss the question that I asked here. I think cracklover and redlude97 both brought up good points. Thanks for all the replies.
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zxcvbnm
Jun 5, 2013, 11:56 PM
Post #29 of 37
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majid_sabet wrote: Having your hands parallel to each other (when rope is formed like a "U" in the belly device) is dangerous. if leader takes a fall when hands are in parallel next to each other, there are minimum friction on the tube type belay devices and by the time belayer wants to stop the fall( if not burning their hand during the process) leader will take bigger fall. IMO,best way to belay is to have one hand pulling the rope from above the belay device at all the time while one hand pulling the rope below the belay device and then sliding the grip hand "create an "O" (never let go off the rope) bring the hand up till hits the belay device, grip and pull rope. Letting one hand go off the rope and putting it below the grip hand " as shown on the vid" is ok but not efficient in lead climbing.
I agree. It seems to me that a quick slide of the hand while always having the rope in the braking position is much safer than constantly having the rope in a dangerous low fiction position, where you must be aware of the fall immediately to even have a chance of getting into the braking position.
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jt512
Jun 6, 2013, 12:38 AM
Post #30 of 37
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cracklover wrote: jt512 wrote: cracklover wrote: jt512 wrote: Using the "pinch-and-slide" belay technique, your non-brake hand is always on the non-brake side of the rope. Not necessarily. Many people (myself included) now teach a pinch-and-slide method in which the non-brake hand comes completely off the climber-side rope when it does the "pinch". There is absolutely no benefit to leaving that hand on the climber-side rope while pinching the brake strand. And there is a serious potential downside to having the hand on both sides. I myself originally learned the version you mention as the "only" way, but switched within a year or two. You should consider doing the same - if not for yourself, at least for any noobs you might teach. And yes, this has all been hashed over before. GO I see no advantage to doing it your way in general, and it will be slower than the standard method. It is slower, in principle. In practice the difference is microseconds per pull at most. It may actually be faster, since the non-brake hand can move directly into place when pinching, rather than having to slide up the rope. As for the advantage - I have personally witnessed three drops with an ATC style device. In all three cases I have been able to determine that the climber fell when the belayer was in the pinch phase, using your method, and the non-brake side reacted to the sudden force of the fall by clamping down on the ropes. The fact that the non-brake hand was still on the climber-side rope - effectively clamping the two of them together - prevented the brake hand from doing its job of locking off.
Then they were doing it wrong. Just as I have stated up-thread, you do not clamp your non-brake hand around the brake side of the rope. You just lightly pinch it between your thumb and index finger while keeping the rest of your fingers around the non-brake side, so that you can still lock off quickly should the need arise.
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 6, 2013, 12:39 AM)
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notapplicable
Jun 6, 2013, 2:03 AM
Post #31 of 37
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majid_sabet wrote: IMO,best way to belay is to have one hand pulling the rope from above the belay device at all the time while one hand pulling the rope below the belay device and then sliding the grip hand "create an "O" (never let go off the rope) bring the hand up till hits the belay device, grip and pull rope. Letting one hand go off the rope and putting it below the grip hand " as shown on the vid" is ok but not efficient in lead climbing.
Ah, the old BS (Brake & Slide) method. Thats what I'm talkin about. All this PAS business is for the birds.
(This post was edited by notapplicable on Jun 6, 2013, 2:06 AM)
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toofreakinsexy1
Jun 6, 2013, 3:08 AM
Post #32 of 37
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Somehow I've managed a decade of the pinch and slide and caught every fall.... It's almost like if you keep your brake hand on the rope AND you're paying attention to your climber, you can drop your right hand when they fall.
Love, noob
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majid_sabet
Jun 6, 2013, 5:08 AM
Post #33 of 37
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notapplicable wrote: majid_sabet wrote: IMO,best way to belay is to have one hand pulling the rope from above the belay device at all the time while one hand pulling the rope below the belay device and then sliding the grip hand "create an "O" (never let go off the rope) bring the hand up till hits the belay device, grip and pull rope. Letting one hand go off the rope and putting it below the grip hand " as shown on the vid" is ok but not efficient in lead climbing. Ah, the old BS (Brake & Slide) method. Thats what I'm talkin about. All this PAS business is for the birds.
check my photos to see if we are talking the same thing. I think we are not.
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notapplicable
Jun 6, 2013, 2:08 PM
Post #34 of 37
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majid_sabet wrote: Having your hands parallel to each other (when rope is formed like a "U" in the belly device) is dangerous. if leader takes a fall when hands are in parallel next to each other, there are minimum friction on the tube type belay devices and by the time belayer wants to stop the fall( if not burning their hand during the process) leader will take bigger fall. IMO,best way to belay is to have one hand pulling the rope from above the belay device at all the time while one hand pulling the rope below the belay device and then sliding the grip hand "create an "O" (never let go off the rope) bring the hand up till hits the belay device, grip and pull rope. Letting one hand go off the rope and putting it below the grip hand " as shown on the vid" is ok but not efficient in lead climbing. make an "O" slide and grip (IMO best,safe and fastest to stop a fall and or manage a slow catch fall) pulling using left hand while pulling locking taking slack off with right hand [img]http://s21.postimg.org/5ckkl73vb/PICT2005.jpg[/img] given slack to leader or resetting taking slack off ( no hands are ever off any part of rope.  Parallel belay ( Again IMO most dangerous way to manage rope specially if leader takes fall when both hands are up next to each other and rope is shaped like a "U" . I believe this the most common way they teach belaying in gyms. [img]http://s21.postimg.org/df4yrakbb/PICT2003.jpg[/img]
In case someone just learning to belay sees this and thinks he is serious, he is not. NEVER loosen your grip on the brake strand to the degree pictured above. All four fingers should incircle the brake strand at all times, regardless of the belay method you are using.
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majid_sabet
Jun 6, 2013, 3:55 PM
Post #35 of 37
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notapplicable wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Having your hands parallel to each other (when rope is formed like a "U" in the belly device) is dangerous. if leader takes a fall when hands are in parallel next to each other, there are minimum friction on the tube type belay devices and by the time belayer wants to stop the fall( if not burning their hand during the process) leader will take bigger fall. IMO,best way to belay is to have one hand pulling the rope from above the belay device at all the time while one hand pulling the rope below the belay device and then sliding the grip hand "create an "O" (never let go off the rope) bring the hand up till hits the belay device, grip and pull rope. Letting one hand go off the rope and putting it below the grip hand " as shown on the vid" is ok but not efficient in lead climbing. make an "O" slide and grip (IMO best,safe and fastest to stop a fall and or manage a slow catch fall) pulling using left hand while pulling locking taking slack off with right hand [img]http://s21.postimg.org/5ckkl73vb/PICT2005.jpg[/img] given slack to leader or resetting taking slack off ( no hands are ever off any part of rope. [img]http://s23.postimg.org/4g4ad7h3v/PICT2004.jpg[/img] Parallel belay ( Again IMO most dangerous way to manage rope specially if leader takes fall when both hands are up next to each other and rope is shaped like a "U" . I believe this the most common way they teach belaying in gyms. [img]http://s21.postimg.org/df4yrakbb/PICT2003.jpg[/img] In case someone just learning to belay sees this and thinks he is serious, he is not. NEVER loosen your grip on the brake strand to the degree pictured above. All four fingers should incircle the brake strand at all times, regardless of the belay method you are using.
nonsense
people take their entire hand off when switching from pull to hold in other methods so how do you justify that ?
I been teaching this way for years and I bid can arrest/give and take rope faster and safer than any other method any day.
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notapplicable
Jun 6, 2013, 4:33 PM
Post #36 of 37
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majid_sabet wrote: notapplicable wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Having your hands parallel to each other (when rope is formed like a "U" in the belly device) is dangerous. if leader takes a fall when hands are in parallel next to each other, there are minimum friction on the tube type belay devices and by the time belayer wants to stop the fall( if not burning their hand during the process) leader will take bigger fall. IMO,best way to belay is to have one hand pulling the rope from above the belay device at all the time while one hand pulling the rope below the belay device and then sliding the grip hand "create an "O" (never let go off the rope) bring the hand up till hits the belay device, grip and pull rope. Letting one hand go off the rope and putting it below the grip hand " as shown on the vid" is ok but not efficient in lead climbing. make an "O" slide and grip (IMO best,safe and fastest to stop a fall and or manage a slow catch fall) pulling using left hand while pulling locking taking slack off with right hand [img]http://s21.postimg.org/5ckkl73vb/PICT2005.jpg[/img] given slack to leader or resetting taking slack off ( no hands are ever off any part of rope. [img]http://s23.postimg.org/4g4ad7h3v/PICT2004.jpg[/img] Parallel belay ( Again IMO most dangerous way to manage rope specially if leader takes fall when both hands are up next to each other and rope is shaped like a "U" . I believe this the most common way they teach belaying in gyms. [img]http://s21.postimg.org/df4yrakbb/PICT2003.jpg[/img] In case someone just learning to belay sees this and thinks he is serious, he is not. NEVER loosen your grip on the brake strand to the degree pictured above. All four fingers should incircle the brake strand at all times, regardless of the belay method you are using. nonsense people take their entire hand off when switching from pull to hold in other methods so how do you justify that ? I been teaching this way for years and I bid can arrest/give and take rope faster and safer than any other method any day.
No commonly used belay technique involves removing the brake hand from the brake side of the rope. Thankfully what you have pictured above is not a commonly used technique.
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majid_sabet
Jun 6, 2013, 5:15 PM
Post #37 of 37
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notapplicable wrote: majid_sabet wrote: notapplicable wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Having your hands parallel to each other (when rope is formed like a "U" in the belly device) is dangerous. if leader takes a fall when hands are in parallel next to each other, there are minimum friction on the tube type belay devices and by the time belayer wants to stop the fall( if not burning their hand during the process) leader will take bigger fall. IMO,best way to belay is to have one hand pulling the rope from above the belay device at all the time while one hand pulling the rope below the belay device and then sliding the grip hand "create an "O" (never let go off the rope) bring the hand up till hits the belay device, grip and pull rope. Letting one hand go off the rope and putting it below the grip hand " as shown on the vid" is ok but not efficient in lead climbing. make an "O" slide and grip (IMO best,safe and fastest to stop a fall and or manage a slow catch fall) pulling using left hand while pulling locking taking slack off with right hand [img]http://s21.postimg.org/5ckkl73vb/PICT2005.jpg[/img] given slack to leader or resetting taking slack off ( no hands are ever off any part of rope. [img]http://s23.postimg.org/4g4ad7h3v/PICT2004.jpg[/img] Parallel belay ( Again IMO most dangerous way to manage rope specially if leader takes fall when both hands are up next to each other and rope is shaped like a "U" . I believe this the most common way they teach belaying in gyms. [img]http://s21.postimg.org/df4yrakbb/PICT2003.jpg[/img] In case someone just learning to belay sees this and thinks he is serious, he is not. NEVER loosen your grip on the brake strand to the degree pictured above. All four fingers should incircle the brake strand at all times, regardless of the belay method you are using. nonsense people take their entire hand off when switching from pull to hold in other methods so how do you justify that ? I been teaching this way for years and I bid can arrest/give and take rope faster and safer than any other method any day. No commonly used belay technique involves removing the brake hand from the brake side of the rope. Thankfully what you have pictured above is not a commonly used technique.
I never said my hands are off belay rope. in other method, one hand come off to place below the belay hand. Anyway, thats what i teach and all of my students are happy and no one ever dropped or died so far.
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