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jt512
Jan 1, 2014, 6:13 AM
Post #26 of 35
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socalclimber wrote: In reply to: Gee, I can't imagine who those two guys could be. Yup! Unfortunately around here nobody could be bothered with researching the history of the very activity they claim to so dearly to embrace.
For better or worse, it wasn't so much history for me, but real life. I took climbing lessons from Guide Book Dude in Yosemite back in the '80s. He had a very young fiancée who brought us sandwiches for lunch.
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jan 1, 2014, 6:18 AM)
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socalclimber
Jan 1, 2014, 12:16 PM
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If it was a cute blonde, it was Susan.
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roninthorne
Jan 2, 2014, 4:00 PM
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While it would be great to be able to research climbing history, not every place has an open source for info. I would venture that most do not, and that a good bit of climbing's history is classified "pros-and-bros-eyes-only" by some of the folks we are discussing in this thread, namely, guides/instructors.
Not all, but you cannot deny that there are some, and they often are in spots where that info needs to be public in the face of onrushing development.
But that is another thread. Sorry for the OT...
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socalclimber
Jan 2, 2014, 6:08 PM
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Not off topic at all. I'm the one who brought it up. That information is out there. They are called guide books, climbing stores and locals. Take a little time and ask around. You would be surprised.
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jmeizis
Jan 2, 2014, 7:28 PM
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I've been instructing since 2007. AMGA certified rock guide and other courses, WFR, AIARE I, soon II, blah, blah, blah.
My opinion is that there is a balance of hard and soft skills that need a balance of examination and experience. You can be taught and tested how to place a cam, cut a slope, etc. It's much harder or perhaps not possible to teach someone to be empathetic to a first time climber freaking out, how to be patient while freezing your ass off, or remain calm if shit really hits the fan.
Certifications are as much for the guest as the guide. It's a signal to people looking for guides that the person took the time, and spent the money, to have someone look at what they were doing and be open to critical feedback from someone who wasn't their employer or buddy. That they are part of an organization that took time to look at how things are done in an industry and try to improve upon them by testing and trying new things.
Because the people most in need of guides have the least ability to identify whether the person is actually safe. When the stamp of approval comes from the person's employer it has all the officialdom of a Cracker Jack box (a big problem with the SPI as I see it, yet it works out ok for AIARE).
If someone believes that guiding is a profession then there is no reason they shouldn't believe in trying to raise the professional standards of the industry which requires some sort of organization and testing process. If someone takes it seriously as a profession then you kind of have to put up or shut up.
Experienced climbers don't necessarily make good guides. The mindset and techniques used are generally very different. Maybe it's because I am a guide but it is generally easy to see the difference between a guide and someone out teaching their buddies. Experience alone can be a poor teacher and years of doing it wrong don't make it ok.
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madrasrock
Jan 2, 2014, 9:51 PM
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So what are some of your idea on “ testing process” I also have been involved with the AMGA SPI program for a few years, and the relationship between the SPI course and SPI assessment seems to be like taking a math class and come to the final and it is an English test.
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socalclimber
Jan 3, 2014, 12:58 AM
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Get used to it. The AMGA has managed to churn out an incredible army of automatons that spray the rhetoric endlessly. I know so many old school guides who can run circles around these "certified" guides. It's pointless to argue with them.
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jmeizis
Jan 3, 2014, 5:01 AM
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Yeah, I took an SPI course with the AMGA and didn't find it that informative. A couple years later I took a PCIA equivalent of an SPI course and exam and found it more beneficial. In comparison to the rock and alpine courses and exams I've been in since then they are very different beasts.
I think the SPI could be improved possibly by taking it out of the purview of private companies who may be using it as a resource for cheap labor, but also incorporating more of the evaluations of the higher end exams. Client care, instructional technique, that sort of thing. Guiding in a single pitch environment is pretty basic though. I think a mentoring process with another guide or company is beneficial for becoming a well rounded guide but at minimum some sort of skills test seems appropriate.
Then again the first company I worked for which was a climbing bio type company had a lot of that know-it-all, gnarly guide dude attitude, that unfortunately rubbed off in addition to several technical things that had to also be unlearned. So if the company doesn't believe in improving standards then it can propagate thru the industry.
There are very few higher end industries where practitioners of that field are not subject to some sort of independent peer review to researched and agreed upon standards of practice and conduct within the field. The only field I can think of where that happens in which the practicioners are capable of so easily killing the consumers they service is guiding.
Maybe it's nice to think of guiding as the wild west and people think guiding is like climbing and can just be this fringe thing but all it does is hold the profession back. There's a reason guides in most other countries can actually make a good living while most of the guides (not owners) here have to take multiple jobs and live like vagrants. Because any person with a little extra money and some gym climbing experience can start hiring his college buddies at minimum wage and offer their "services" at next to nothing.
They kill someone and get sued, or just suck at it. They can start fresh by starting another company with the same MO.
Most people would only entrust their life to gear that was CE and UIAA tested and certified but people trust their lives to perfect strangers who've not been tested or certified.
Sorry, that's a logical leap I just can't make.
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madrasrock
Jan 4, 2014, 2:20 AM
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Thanks for your thoughts,
The AMGA really has two levels of SPI providers. The SPI pool instructors and the SPI pool (course providers/guide companies) The SPI pool instructor that I have worked with are very good, and some of the original SPI providers that have ten years of experience are also very good.
But some of the people in the new SPI pool I was not very impressed with. When I went to the SPI pool course I was the only one that had actually taken the SPI course. And we were there to learn to be SPI course providers?????
Out of the group there was only one that I would even send my kids out as a guide, let alone instruct someone.
I think the AMGA has vastly diluted there SPI pool, but if you do not have more SPI instructors you will not have more SPI members.
The real problem is the AMGA’s CW, SPI and Rock Instructors are ¾ of the membership, and very few of them are any type of guide. They are people that work in gyms, schools, camp, etc. where the soft skills are by far more important. But the AMGA is so hung up on the IFMGA I think that is why there is a PCIA.
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jmeizis
Jan 7, 2014, 7:02 PM
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Thanks for the explanation of the SPI instructor pool. I didn't know really how that whole thing worked.
I think that's a problem with education and economics in general. 3/4 of the population has a high school diploma, and then a good portion have college degrees, with fewer having master's and even fewer with PhD's. Most employees with a high school diploma in low end jobs are usually not super enthusiastic or likely to do their best. Most employers hiring the lowest end employees aren't going to pay the best.
I don't think the AMGA can take responsibility for everything with guiding. They're a training program and can show people how they should do things but guide services share responsibility for holding their employees to high standards and providing feedback on their performance.
Standards also only work if there are consequences. Right now there are very little laws or regulations for guiding. If a guide service or gym wants to go for the high turnover, low ability type employees, I think that reflects more on the current economics of guiding more than on the AMGA training program. Nobody has to adhere to the standards because if they don't they may just lose their job and can move on. It's unlikely they'll get blacklisted from the guiding community.
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