I have a service dog and I take him everywhere (usually that's what happens when you have a service dog, right?) but lately I've been debating the ethics of bringing my dog to the crag when I'm going to be doing a multi-pitch climb.

I have no problem taking him to the local crag (or any crag) at all. He's obviously very well behaved BUT i'm not sure about what to do when I know I'm going to be doing a 5-7 pitch route and be gone for a while. Now, he would be perfectly fine tied to a tree with a bowl of water. It's not really the dog specifically that I'm worried about. He'd lay there all day if I gave him that command. It's more the idea of what other PEOPLE would do while I'm not there. Like I said, he's a very well trained dog and he was very expensive!

Thoughts?

Substitute "child" for "dog" in what you wrote above and see if it still makes sense and seems reasonable.

Substitute "child" for "dog" in what you wrote above and see if it still makes sense and seems reasonable.

Substitute "child" for "dog" in what you wrote above and see if it still makes sense and seems reasonable.

Substitute "child" for "dog" in what you wrote above and see if it still makes sense and seems reasonable.

I've seen the sweetest, most well behaved, most friendly dogs, in just this situation, and it's not pretty. It's very stressful to the dog to watch its owner disappear high up on a cliff face, and then wait for hours in a strange place, not knowing if the owner is going to fall off the cliff or come back safe.

A good dog in such a position will still behave well, but they will be very sad and increasingly anxious all day long.

I'm not even going to address how ridiculously stupid this sounds. YOU are what is wrong with today's society.

I think you missed the part where I have a fifteen thousand dollar dog that is highly trained. He does not get sad and lonely. I can put him in the down position for hours and hours and he will not move. He's not a pet... he is a working dog.

To the rest of you who are not completely apeshit stupid and understand what a dog is... Thank you for your responses. I think my dog will be just fine but I wanted to run it across the community first.

Totally disagree. It all depends on the dog. Some dogs will be fine hanging out while the owner climbs, some won't be.

I'm not even going to address how ridiculously stupid this sounds. YOU are what is wrong with today's society.




I think you missed the part where I have a fifteen thousand dollar dog that is highly trained. He does not get sad and lonely. I can put him in the down position for hours and hours and he will not move. He's not a pet... he is a working dog.

And I think you missed the part where I said the most well-behaved dog can be under duress watching his owner disappear up a cliff. If you really want the answer to your question, have a friend (who the dog does not know well) observe the dog while you go do a multi-pitch climb, and report back to you.

Is the service dog for you (used by you) or are you training it?

He's mine…hence the signature:
:
:
V

I'm not even going to address how ridiculously stupid this sounds. YOU are what is wrong with today's society.

The thing is you're focused entirely on how the dog and other climbers might react. What about the things that can happen to the dog while it's tied to a tree for hours?
Previously mentioned: rockfall, stinging insects, water running out or tipped over, same for food. What about other animals and how they might react to your dog? Have you ever seen what a raccoon or skunk can do to an animal's face? Swarm of yellow jackets from the unseen nest at the base of the tree that your dog just laid down on?

One other suggestion: when you go to a discussion forum and ask a question, it's probably not a good idea to get all butthurt when you don't get the answers you want or expect.

What in your signature us supposed to tell me whether the dog is your service dog or if you're training it? I don't get it. I've met retired marines that fit into both.

You're correct. That was very ignorant of me. I usually assume everybody was, or is, in the military.

To retire from the military you have to do one of two things. 1. Serve 20+ years or 2. get injured so badly that you are medically retired from service. A Sgt. in the Marine Corps is a rather low rank for somebody who would have served for 20+ years so it's safe to assume a Sgt. was medically retired.

Cracklover's dog:




My dog:







Don't take any of this personally cracklover… I'm just busting your "animals are people too" chops! :) It's all in good spirits from me. I do agree with you on the fact that some dogs go ape shit when their owner disappears.

You're correct. That was very ignorant of me. I usually assume everybody was, or is, in the military.

To retire from the military you have to do one of two things. 1. Serve 20+ years or 2. get injured so badly that you are medically retired from service. A Sgt. in the Marine Corps is a rather low rank for somebody who would have served for 20+ years so it's safe to assume a Sgt. was medically retired.

If you don't mind answering; what assistance do you use your service dog for?

My brother in law is in Marines for the past 13 years and also serves as a scout sniper.

Since he's doing multipitch climbing I assume something like PTSD?

Because a person with a physical disability can't go climbing?

[image]http://media.2oceansvibe.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Untitled-1.jpg[/image]

If you think that giving a shit about whether a dog gets anxious when left tied to a tree all day in a stressful situation (the point I was making) is equivalent to being a nutter who cares so much for his dog's feelings that he wants to feed him at the dinner table, then maybe you care too little.

GO

Yes, it could be. But the main thing it is, is personal.

I'm sure people don't think they are being rude with the inquiry, maybe are interested in knowing about the many awesome ways dogs can help people, but it is impolite to put a person on the spot n this situation.

Actually, I was thinking that not everyone with a disability needs a service dog.

You seem to have an aggressive nature on this forum. Since you had ignored the question multiple times I was assuming it was more complicated than you lost your legs.

My dog:

[image]http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh112/richardvg03/1460075_10202691730244226_325474153_n.jpg[/image]

Since you're looking for affirmation, yup, definitely bring a dog that's trained to attack people to the crag: it's a great idea.

Busted left knee
Torn abdominal walls
Two slipped disks
One cracked vertebae
Scoliosis
Jammed neck
dislocated left shoulder
Traumatic Brain Injury
and you guessed it… Post Traumatic Stress… I'd let you look through my medical records and review my many surgeries but I don't feel like turning my 18inch thick record into a PDF… and I don't care to fax it over either :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xliij5Km95U

My dog does a lot for me. He has around 65 different commands.

My actions/tone/(typing) aren't aggressive… they're blunt. :)

You are clearly going to bring your dog to make a point now, and damn everyone who disagrees. Good for you, I guess your traumatic brain injury doesn't effect your common sense or courtesy. Or does it?

"This guy is trained to kill people!!! Don't let him near the children!!!"

You obviously don't understand working dogs…but that's OK! :) You're going to be fine… just don't make eye contact with the dog! :)

In one post you bemoan people asking about med records, and in the very next post you lay down a poor, poor me laundry list of ailments. What reaction are you looking for, pity? You got it from me, but not for the reason you may think.

Be a real shame if the person defends himself and you're out $15k.

Busted left knee
Torn abdominal walls
Two slipped disks
One cracked vertebae
Scoliosis
Jammed neck
dislocated left shoulder
Traumatic Brain Injury
and you guessed it… Post Traumatic Stress… I'd let you look through my medical records and review my many surgeries but I don't feel like turning my 18inch thick record into a PDF… and I don't care to fax it over either :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xliij5Km95U

My dog does a lot for me. He has around 65 different commands.

My actions/tone/(typing) aren't aggressive… they're blunt. :)

Thank you!

Asking somebody why they need/have a service animal is like asking to see somebody's medical record.

Service Dogs must be allowed to go anywhere their handler goes, including
restaurants, schools, buses, taxis, airplanes, stores, movie theatres, concerts,
sporting events, doctor's offices, and any other public place. It is REQUIRED under
federal and state laws that they be allowed. They do not have to wear any specific
identifying gear, including vests. Many Service Dog users choose to dress their
dogs in a vest or other identifying apparel in order to make access easier, as it
avoids many questions and confrontations. This is a personal choice, and is NOT
REQUIRED UNDER THE LAW. It is illegal to ask for any special identification
from Service Dog partners. Some carry ID cards, and may present them voluntarily,
but this also is not required, and should not be expected. You may NOT ask for
"proof" or certification of the dog's training as a condition of entry into your
business.

Be a real shame if the person defends himself and you're out $15k.

Not aggressive huh? And what about the photo? I don't see legs missing below the knees on your list (which is a pretty huge).

Yes and when you bring your service dog anywhere you need to have a license explaining why you need said service dog available for inspection.

I didn't say that was a picture of me dumbass. I asked a question... and then posted a picture. Don't cry because you ASSumed something. :)

I'd guess it's more likely our (taxpayers) $15K

I didn't say that was a picture of me dumbass. I asked a question... and then posted a picture. Don't cry because you ASSumed something. :)

Yeah, that seems about right.

You seem to be an intelligent person so you had to have know that showing a picture of an attack dog that looks very similar to your service dog would lead to such a reaction.

There's no such thing as a "service animal license you ignorant idiot!! :)

http://www.ada.gov/...ice_animals_2010.htm


[image]http://fc02.deviantart.net/images/i/2003/3/1/b/A_nice_cup_of_shut_the_fuck_up.jpg[/image]

Yeah, that seems about right.

She was referencing the picture of the double-amputee. She assumed THAT picture was me.

I'm calm. Just because I call somebody a dumb ass doesn't mean I'm upset or raising my voice. It just means I'm pointing out that that individual is, from my point of view, being a dumb ass.

Now the picture of my dog doing schutzhund bite work. That's my dog! :) He's full blood GSD and we do lots of agility and schutzhund work on him. He's a beautiful animal! :)

I have my PTSD in check (thanks for looking out though brother)... I just can't believe I've gotten these idiots to respond so much. I think I'm up to 51 replies on this thread and I'm just trying to see how high I can get it...but at the same time... I'm also trying to educate them. I feel it's my civil duty to add links from the ADA explaining the laws and what not.

Just another public service I provide! #neverstopserving

Does everyone has such short memories? Nobody remembers richardvg03 persona from his last stint on RC.com?

You mean you don't remember falling for it so badly?

Sorry, I had to!

My personal opinion on leaving your dog at the base while you go up the cliff for the day: the dog will probably be okay, but it's pretty selfish for you to do that. It's pretty close to tossing your dog outside at night assuming it'll take care of itself. It probably will, until it gets hit by a car.

The dog was trained to serve you. You are it's world, no matter how professional the situation. The dog is there to take care of you, you should return the favor and take care of your dog properly.

Back to the dog discussion. Here is a theoretical.

Scenario 1: a climber brings an extremely well trained and temperamentally-calm dog with him for a weekend of climbing. Out of that entire weekend, the dog is left alone, in the shade, with a bowl of water, for about 3-4 hours, while the owner climbs a 4-5 pitch multi-pitch climb. We are not talking about epic big walls here, if you look at the OP. For the rest of the weekend, the dog is with her owner, there is hiking to and from the climbing involved, probably plenty of chances to explore around the campsite, and plenty of human interaction, including, probably curling up next to her human to sleep...

Scenario 2: a climber decides that he is not going to take his dog with him for the weekend. He has no family or friends in town who can watch the dog, so he checks her into a boarding kennel, a new one, because he has never had to do this before. The dog is left there for the weekend. Realistically, for 3 day,s because he has to check her in on Friday afternoon, and he is getting back tool ate on Sunday to get her, so it would be Monday, before the dog and the owner are reunited.

Do you seriously think that the first scenario is THAT much more stressful for the dog? For the dog that is calm, and trained to do this sort of thing? Sure, kennels have to keep the animals reasonably happy, and the dog will be safe and fed, but she is probably going to spend most of the time indoors, and without individual attention, and in an unfamiliar situation, and missing her owner for the entire weekend, instead of 3-4 hours.


Maybe it is my background, growing up in a place where most dogs were working dogs, expected to do their job, and kept outside, instead of beloved pets sharing the owner's bed, but I honestly don't see a problem with the first scenario.

Herding dogs always slept outside. Hunting dogs slept outside. Guard gods slept outside. Search and rescue dogs slept outside. And people didn't usually have multiple dogs, so it wasn't like the dogs had each others' company... And yes, I suppose they could run out into the street and get hit by a car, or be attacked by a mountain lion. But somehow they never did run randomly into the street, they weren't that stupid, and mountain lions weren't absconding with one dog per night, either. And if they had "feelings" about being sad to be left outside at night, they never showed it. Or people weren't looking for those feelings, because, hey, this was a dog, not a human. This dog had a job, and did it well, and was affectionate and safe around kids (except for chained guard dogs or fighting dogs), and happy to have human attention, and loyal, but still, just a dog.

I really don't think dogs are fundamentally different here. Some breeds are simply not equipped to handle the harsh outside conditions, and some are way too stupid, because they weren't bred for their smarts, and obviously the very small dogs have more predators that could harm them. But the majority of dogs are what they are because of how they were raised and trained, including having "feelings" about being left alone in a cool shady spot for couple hours.

I personally don't have a dog, because the only kind of dog i would like to have is a large dog that needs plenty of outdoor time and exercise, and I would not feel right about having the dog locked inside the house while i went to work every day. But if you DO have a dog, and if the dog IS used to spending 8-9 hours alone every day, while the owner works, how is this any different than leaving her alone at the base of the cliff for couple hours?

...But if you DO have a dog, and if the dog IS used to spending 8-9 hours alone every day, while the owner works, how is this any different than leaving her alone at the base of the cliff for couple hours?

My dog is fine with being left at home while we're working. It's his home. He is definitely NOT ok with being left on the ground by himself while I go climbing. He gets pretty upset, crying, whining, pacing...there is a difference for some dogs.

there should be a big difference between a trained service dog and most other dogs. A service dog has to be of an appropriate temperment, which would be calm and collected.

I still think it's unfair to leave the dog at the base of a route unattended of 8 hours though, regardless of it's temperment.

That's how the ADA is enforced through after the incident litigation, aka you sue the person who's not in compliance.

It's much easier, albeit frustrating, to simply have your papers showing your dogs training and your medical need for a service animal on you to stop the issue in it's tracks.

I think it's insulting that you are comparing yourself to someone who is a double amputee. My laundry list of injuries is as bas as yours, if not worse, but I'm still 100% intact (even if my body really hurts sometimes).

You mean you don't remember falling for it so badly?

Sorry, I had to!

I don't think it is "fair" exactly. But this is a service dog. Service dogs have to do all sorts of things that are not "fair" as part of their job. Is it 'fair' that the dog can't go play with those kids that are throwing frisbee on the lawn, and has to sit next to her blind owner for several hours, while he was overcome by fatigue and fell asleep in his wheelchair? Is it "fair" that a dog is sent to sniff for explosives, or sent into the collapsed building, with a potential of the dog being killed, to look for survivors of an earthquake?

If there are options available that don't involve the dog being left alone for a day (I still don't think it is 8 hours for couple pitches, but O.K.), those options would be preferable.

It would be great, for example, if the OP had a friend who was not a climber, but came along to hang out with his bro, and took the dog for a long hike while Rich climbed.

It would be great if Rich's girlfriend thought that the definition of heaven is sitting in the shade reading a book for the afternoon, and stayed there right next to the dog.

It would be great if his friends were doing some single-pitch cragging while he did multi-pitch day, and took the dog for a day.

But if it is a service dog, and if the OP can't leave it for the entire weekend, because he needs his dog to, I don't know, fall asleep without drugs? And if there isn't anyone else to sit there with the dog, or take the dog while he climbs? Then I guess the dog will have to do the unfair thing. And in the grand scheme of things, it is not THAT unfair for the dog that is temperamentally suited for it.

I'm part of a coalition that is working on some legislation to try and remedy this. Everything you say is completely accurate. Pretty much the only thing you can do is sue or just leave. That's why I make sure my dog is in his harness most the time so I don't run into this issue.

HAHAHAHA!!! I even put a picture of a troll sitting at a laptop!! This was wayyy to easy BUT rc.com never fails me! :)

Yeah but this troll has actually created some good discussion about service animals and not letting a disability dictate what you can do.

Also you owned GG and that was funny.

I can see you're getting sized up for the troll suit yourself!

Yeah but this troll has actually created some good discussion about service animals and not letting a disability dictate what you can do.

Also you owned GG and that was funny.

I can see you're getting sized up for the troll suit yourself!

Perhaps, but there are lots of ways to troll. Posing as having a serious question and then poking the people who respond is all well and good (albeit not very friendly). But flinging insults and calling most of them names while you're at it? Have you read any of the stuff Jeff (the new owner) has posted? Based on my reading of it, you're not likely to be able to have fun here for very long if you keep up that tack. And that would be a shame.

Cheers,

GO

Perhaps, but there are lots of ways to troll. Posing as having a serious question and then poking the people who respond is all well and good (albeit not very friendly). But flinging insults and calling most of them names while you're at it? Have you read any of the stuff Jeff (the new owner) has posted? Based on my reading of it, you're not likely to be able to have fun here for very long if you keep up that tack. And that would be a shame.

Cheers,

GO

Agree to disagree.

I think you missed the part where I have a fifteen thousand dollar dog that is highly trained. He does not get sad and lonely. I can put him in the down position for hours and hours and he will not move. He's not a pet... he is a working dog.


To the rest of you who are not completely apeshit stupid and understand what a dog is... Thank you for your responses. I think my dog will be just fine but I wanted to run it across the community first.

Does everyone has such short memories? Nobody remembers richardvg03 persona from his last stint on RC.com?