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newbieclimber
Nov 25, 2001, 3:57 AM
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assuming your pro will withstand up to 2000 lbs of force, what is the correct spacing of pro on a 165 ft. pitch so that it will prevent you from decking in case you fall?
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rrrADAM
Nov 25, 2001, 4:11 AM
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Are you talking about yanking it out ??? The rope will disipate much of that force, it's dynamic, thus the force applied to the pro is lessened.
Good practice is to place pro early and often.
rrrADAM
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atg200
Nov 25, 2001, 4:23 AM
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totally depends on rock type and topology. people running it out on gunks moderates makes me cringe-tons of corners and ledges to hit. on the other hand, if you try to place every 5 feet at indian creek you'll rn out of cams and pump yourself out.
the rule of thumb is to place often down low, and space it out as you go higher(more rope out means lower fall factor). up high i place every 10-12 feet or so, but that of course is dependent on the fall being clean and the gear being bomber. down low i place every bodylength.
andrew
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dustinap
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Nov 25, 2001, 5:21 AM
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On a 165 foot pitch my main climbing partner who leads normally places 6-9 pieces on climbs under 5.9 I've noticed,he's a really good climber. He normally makes a 4 piece anchor all with locking biner's and typically uses a 24 inch sling on every piece. He racks some 48 inchers though.
Myself, since I'm new, I led a 5.7 and placed about 8 pieces on it, and wasn't to comfortable, but I had a lack of gear at this time. This pitch went to the VERY last inch of a 60M rope, really glad I didn't fall on the last move.
I would say for someone new, even 16 pieces a pitch may not be to much, as you get comfortable in your ability to climb and place pro, you'll be leading Serenity Crack with 6 pieces a pitch.
It's all your comfort level and how much you can commit, really. I've seldomly lead since everyone I clmib with is better and want to do harder stuff.
This up comming season I am going to start leading alot hopefully.
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newbieclimber
Nov 25, 2001, 6:26 PM
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rradam, can you explain your theory that the rope will disipate much of the force because it's dynamic?
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atg200
Nov 25, 2001, 7:13 PM
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newbieclimber, its a fact, not a theory. the stretching of the dynamic rope absorbs a great deal of the force generated in a fall. this is good, otherwise a fall of any length you take would rip your spine in half. for instance, a big fall on a static line would certainly kill you and would break your carabiners as well.
petzl has a great explanation of fall factors on their website-check it out.
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talons05
Nov 25, 2001, 9:51 PM
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It all depends on rock type, difficulty of climb, etc. etc. etc. I usually place about every body length or just a little less. Lots of people I know don't use so much pro.
AW
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newbieclimber
Nov 26, 2001, 6:53 AM
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it in no way depends on a subjective determination of the difficulty of a climb and i have taken rock type out of the equation by assuming that your gear will withstand up to 2000 lbs of force. rather it depends on gravity and the forces generated by a fall and the amount of rope between the belayer and the climber.
"I usually place about every body length or just a little less." why? and what makes you think that after placing pro at those intervals that your gear will hold a fall and you won't hit the ground?
"It's all your comfort level and how much you can commit, really." building a system of protection that will keep you from hitting the ground if you fall has nothing to do with your comfort level or how much you can commit. your system of protection will either hold a fall or it won't and the forces generated dont depend on how confident you are feeling.
[ This Message was edited by: newbieclimber on 2001-11-25 23:14 ]
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climber1
Nov 26, 2001, 9:43 PM
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newbieclimber, place gear as much or as little as you want. if you want to run it out tha's up to you. if you want to sew itup, that's up to you. even on easy terrain it doesn't hurt to place a piece. also, I was place a piece not to far above the anchors so as not to load them if I fall.
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talons05
Nov 26, 2001, 11:07 PM
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Newbieclimber - You're pretty quick to tell us that we're wrong here... In fact, it DOES depend on difficulty of climb. Harder climbs sometimes don't ALLOW you to place pro except in certain places. Easier ones are easier because the availability for protection and its ease of placement.
Now, for your question. A 165 foot pitch. Here's how it works out mathematically, taking out the variables of placement opportunity or rock type (assuming that every place mathematically needed for placement is available, and assuming that the rock is solid and placements bomber.)
1)Let's start by placing the very first piece of the pitch at 5 feet off of the belay. This piece should have an opposing piece placed with it, to avoid the "zipper" phenom.
1)
x [--first piece of pro.
.
.
. = 1 ft.
.
--------- Belay ledge
2)Ok, ideally, you would want to place your next piece about 2.5 feet above that. Now, if you fall before that second placement, you still won't ground out.
2)
 x
.
.
x
.
.
.
.
-------------------
3)Now you have 7.5 feet of rope out and you're 7.5 feet of the belay. Now you can climb 3.5 feet more and place some pro... If you fall, you fall 7 feet total and with rope stretch, you come close to the ledge but are still good to go.
3)
x
.
.
x
.
.
x
.
.
.
.
-----------
4)Now you are 11 feet out. Climb 5 more feet and place pro. If you fall, you have a 1 foot cushion for the rope to stretch.
4)
x
.
.
.
.
x
.
.
x
.
.
x
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.
.
.
----------------
5) Now you are 16 feet out (only 154 to go)Climb 7 feet and place pro. You now have a 2 foot cushion from grounding.
5)
x
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.
.
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x
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.
x
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x
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x
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----------------
6) Now you are 23 feet out. You can go as far as 10 feet and safely place pro. You now have 3 feet of cushion.
I don't want to take up too much space, but as you can see, the further you get, the farther spaced placements can be. It is still a good idea to keep the placements constant. (These numbers are just the ones that mathematically satisfy your question and don't allow the climber to hit solid ground.)
AW
[ This Message was edited by: talons05 on 2001-11-26 15:11 ]
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newbieclimber
Nov 27, 2001, 12:08 AM
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talons05,
"In fact, it DOES depend on difficulty of climb. Harder climbs sometimes don't ALLOW you to place pro except in certain places."
i would like to repeat that the question as to whether the system of protection you have built will hold a fall has NOTHING to do with how hard the climb is. the laws of physics do not give you a free pass if the climb is hard and you can't put gear in. but it is heartening to see at least one trad climber try to approach the question with some analytical thinking.
however your approach is too simplistic. gear does not hold unlimitted forces and so just determining where the length of rope out will just barely keep you off the deck and then putting in pro at that point will not work. your gear will certainly rip out if you fall on it before you reach those spots because the forces generated by your fall will be too big for your gear to hold.
if it's any consolation to you most trad climbers whether they are experienced or not have no idea how much gear to put in to build a safe system.
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wigglestick
Nov 27, 2001, 12:20 AM
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newbieclimber,
I suggest that you visit the www.petzl.com and look at the fall simulator and you analyze this subject all you want with different variables, types of pro, etc.
It will be very educational.
Also remember that eventhough you pro may be able to withstand a 2000 lb force, more often than not the quality of the placement/quality of rock limits the strength that any one piee will hold.
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talons05
Nov 27, 2001, 12:26 AM
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"however your approach is too simplistic. gear does not hold unlimitted forces and so just determining where the length of rope out will just barely keep you off the deck and then putting in pro at that point will not work."
Actually, "newbie," you are the one who said to assume that the protection would hold 2000 lbs of force. For that reason, I incorporated this into my explanation. If you still don't understand then I'm afraid I can't help you.
For some reason, I get the idea that you don't really have much experience trad climbing. You seem to have failed to grasp some of the fundamental concepts.
AW
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jds100
Nov 27, 2001, 12:38 AM
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Good luck, Newbie, on getting people to respond to you; that's a hell of an attitude ya got there! If you don't get it from what's been said already, then, unless you want to die or get hurt really badly, go read books that you can keep referring back to, until it makes sense.
The most simplistic answer to your question is to place the pro a little above halfway up, accounting for the stretch of a dynamic rope (that's one of the "theories" you seem unfamiliar with). If you think difficulty of the climb doesn't make a difference, then you need to learn why some climbs are rated harder than others. A few of the many variables include rock type, quality and frequency of placements, and stances for making those placements.
I can't tell if you think you already know the answer, of if you're just a dick, no matter what somebody replies.
The gear, itself, is generally constructed to hold well beyond the load limit you state (other than micro nuts, which are more for aid climbing), so the variable HAS to be the rock, genius! The placement could be sketchy, the rock could be friable; the gear could blow out -fail to stop a fall- for reasons that have nothing to do with the strength of the hardware.
Remember: there's an "injury and accident" forum, so you'll have a place to tell us all how your trad experience went, after suggesting how dumb most of us are.
[ This Message was edited by: jds100 on 2001-11-26 17:47 ]
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talons05
Nov 27, 2001, 12:43 AM
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Thank you, JDS. Maybe he'll listen eventually. Good luck, I guess. The reason we've been answering this post is because we have experience in the field of traditional climbing. If you are the expert, as you seem to think, then why ask us for advice? I can assure you that the facts we have laid before you come from having been there and climbed it. We're not making it up. I really would suggest you listen to us.
AW
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atg200
Nov 27, 2001, 12:48 AM
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newbieclimber, perhaps you should do a little more thinking before you tell people who give you good advice that they are wrong.
the length of the fall doesn't matter at all-the fall factor is important. a 10 foot fall near the anchor with little rope out will generate far more force than a 100 foot fall with lots of rope out. the rope absorbs most of the force of the wall-if it didn't even a short fall quickly exceeds the strngth of most carabiners. this is why we use dynamic rope and not static line for leading.
this is one reason why it is generally recommended to place often near the belay and less as you go higher(the other being you don't want to deck, but even on mulipitch routes this holds true).
this is climbing-there are no formulas that can be applied at will. place early and often, and make sure your first few pieces off the belay are totaaly bomber. if you are looking at a hard stretch with little pro, place two pieces for redundancy-you never want to rely on a single anchor.
andrew
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newbieclimber
Nov 27, 2001, 1:33 AM
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talons05,
'Actually, "newbie," you are the one who said to assume that the protection would hold 2000 lbs of force. For that reason, I incorporated this into my explanation.'
i reread your post and i dont see where 2000 lbs of force per protection point came into play in your analysis. maybe you could enlighten me further. how would pro that could withstand up to 2500 lbs of force change your analysis?
'I get the idea that you don't really have much experience trad climbing.'
no i dont. that is why i am trying to learn about it.
[ This Message was edited by: newbieclimber on 2001-11-26 17:35 ]
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jds100
Nov 27, 2001, 1:48 AM
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Hey, Newbie, you live alone, don't you?
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talons05
Nov 27, 2001, 3:04 AM
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"newbie" -
You are dense. Ok. Let me make it as easy to understand as I can. You were bashing my explanation earlier:
"your gear will certainly rip out if you fall on it before you reach those spots because the forces generated by your fall will be too big for your gear to hold."
I was simply explaining to you that you at the very beginning said to assume that each piece would hold 2000 lbs. of force. For this reason, we can assume that in my explanation, all pieces are expected to hold. Also, in my explanation (which can't get much clearer, it has pictures for crying out loud) I allowed an increasing cushion to allow for rope stretch. Rope stretch, by the way, is a fact, not a theory, Newbie.
"if it's any consolation to you most trad climbers whether they are experienced or not have no idea how much gear to put in to build a safe system."
As a matter of fact, I have taken more than one fall on a traditional route while leading. The fact that I am still alive and intact speaks for itself toward my understanding of placements. If that's not enough, I just showed you exactly the correct numbers and dimensions for placements.
It looks to me like you haven't even CLEANED a route, much less led one. You need to find an experienced trad climber and follow him on several climbs. Then you need to lead some yourself. If you are still alive after this, then you MAY begin to question my knowledge on the subject.
AW
[ This Message was edited by: talons05 on 2001-11-26 19:06 ]
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newbieclimber
Nov 27, 2001, 7:21 AM
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talons05,
"I was simply explaining to you that you at the very beginning said to assume that each piece would hold 2000 lbs. of force. For this reason, we can assume that in my explanation, all pieces are expected to hold."
wrong. you certainly dont understand gear and fall forces very well. the assumption as to how much force your gear can withstand has a profound impact on the spacing of your pro. if you space out your pro too far you can zipper your gear and hit the deck.
next!
[ This Message was edited by: newbieclimber on 2001-11-26 23:32 ]
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atg200
Nov 27, 2001, 6:45 PM
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newbieclimber, you have no idea what you are talking about. your hypothetical situation is stupid and irrelevant. start listening when people who are far more experienced than you give advice-most of what has been written on this thread is very good.
people have taken 100 foot falls onto birdbeaks. i personally took a 40 foot fall onto a teeny tiny bronze offset(#2), which by the way isn't rated to anywhere near 2000 pounds. was this a miracle? of course not.
the first place you are wrong is talking about pounds. kN is a measurement of force, not weight. start thinking in terms of forces and you'll be better off.
perhaps you don't know what dynamic means. it means the rope stretches. as an experiment, grab 6 inches of the rope and try to stretch it. doesn't work. now tie one end to a tree and try to stretch the entire line. nice and springy, huh? the stretching action absorbs a great deal of the force of the fall, which is what enables crap gear like beaks and rps to ctach monster whoopers. this also illustrates why you need to place more gear at the start of the pitch-a less rope that is out in the system, the less force the rope can absorb.
the points about difficulty are valid as well. try to place a good stopper when you are pumped. go ahead, try. i don't know about you, but my ability to hang out and work out the best possible placement is impaired when my fingers are uncurling from holds. thankfully, no law states that you have to place gear every 7.28643 feet so you can punch it to that nice ledge 4 feet above you. on the other hand, if that nice ledge is 25 feet above you, you may want to think about backing off. this scenario is far more valid than your academic example.
i'm not sure if you are a troll or really this arrogant. at any rate, i'm done with this thread. try not to get yourself killed newbieclimber, you'll make other climbers look bad.
andrew
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climb512
Nov 27, 2001, 7:58 PM
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when i started leading, my partner said to zip it up. seeing as how i was leading 5.2-5.3 at the gunks, and there are lots of good holds so as not to get pumped out on. he said it was good practice to place as much as possible. it sounded logical and he would critique evry peice he pulled while following. made me a better climber and leader i beleive.
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talons05
Nov 27, 2001, 8:22 PM
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Newbie just doesn't get it and he's mad that he was wrong...
AW
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newbieclimber
Nov 27, 2001, 9:21 PM
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"the first place you are wrong is talking about pounds. kN is a measurement of force, not weight. start thinking in terms of forces and you'll be better off." (atg200)
wrong. weight is a measurement of force just as newtons are.
"Let's assume you are using dynamic rope conforming to UIAA standards, and you take a whipper of Fall Factor 2 (the worst possible) coz you didn't understand anything we've said about placing pro so you didn't place any. Assuming also you're in the middle of a big wall and will not hit a ledge of any sort, the most force that will be transmitted (if you're 80kg or below) is 12kn because of the stretch of the rope absorbing the energy of the fall." (sonic)
wrong. uiaa falls for rope testing are not factor 2 falls and factor 2 falls are not the maximum. furthermore the 12 kN maximum force you quote is what the climber will experience at her end of the rope. the gear will be subjected to almost twice that force.
"Most of the pro is made to withstand 20kn or more so there should be no issue as to whether they will withstand the forces or not." (sonic)
wrong. i have a full set of camalots, stoppers, and hexes and not one of them is rated to 20kn.
next!
[ This Message was edited by: newbieclimber on 2001-11-27 17:51 ]
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wigglestick
Nov 27, 2001, 9:45 PM
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Newbie,
Please go to http://www.petzl.com/simul/FC/index.html
and read about it for yourself. Quit trying to pick fights by pretending you don't know something and then jumping all over people when they try to help. This page has all the math equations you could ask for. Feel free to do some integration if it makes you feel smart.
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talons05
Nov 27, 2001, 9:55 PM
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Newbie, I am done trying to help you. I hope you finally listen before you end up as a puddle at the bottom of some cliff. You are ignorant not because you don't know the info, but because you refuse to accept the fact that there are others here more knowledgeable than yourself on this subject. Good luck ever finding any good climbers willing to go out with you.
AW
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jds100
Nov 28, 2001, 11:27 PM
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Newbie: thanks for your most recent posts on this forum. I've found them most enlightening. I wasn't before, but now I'm sure: you are in fact a dick.
Austin: nice try with this guy, but they're gonna need a much bigger set of calipers to measure an asshole this size.
[ This Message was edited by: jds100 on 2001-11-28 15:29 ]
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talons05
Nov 28, 2001, 11:55 PM
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Haha. Ok jeff.
AW
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addiroids
Nov 29, 2001, 1:58 AM
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Newbie, you are a f*cking moron. Seriously listen to those dudes (atg200 etc) who gave you advice. Real climbing isn't about numbers and kN. It is about not dieing. Learn to place gear properly. Place it when ever you want. Carry 20 slings with 2 biners on them each to clip in. Don't be a dumbass.
"Climb like you are soloing.
Protect like you may fall at any moment."
And my own:
Figure that half of your placements are totally crap, the other half are questionable. Climb accordingly!
TRADitionally yours,
Addiroids
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newbieclimber
Nov 29, 2001, 2:16 AM
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unfortunately directions given on this forum about how often to place gear so that your system of protection will keep you from decking were much like your pearl of wisdom:
"place it when ever you want."
or the one I liked best:
"place it whenever you come to a good stance or rest spot"
certainly none of which can even qualify as intelligent advice. my primary concern is to learn how often I need to place gear so that if I fall my system of protection will keep me from decking. that requires that a climber constantly be aware of how good the placements are and hence make a judgement on the forces they can be expected to withstand, how far above the last piece she is and the resulting forces that will be generated by a fall from that height, and an awareness of how much rope is out and how much force that will disipate.
i am aware that more frequent placements need to occur at the start of a pitch but "frequent" is a very subjective term. more frequent relative to what baseline? does it mean every 1ft? every 10 ft.? does it depend on your body weight? height? no one here seems to know and that makes me wonder about the sanity of the people that are trad climbing on this site. maybe that is just the natural process of cleaning out the gene pool.
if you dont understand the forces invovled in trad climbing how can you ever know whether your system of protection will keep you off the deck if you fall? and if you cant build such a system can you really consider yourself a trad climber? just plugging in gear and getting to the top of a pitch doesnt mean you built a safe system. as far as you know you were soloing.
[ This Message was edited by: newbieclimber on 2001-11-28 18:40 ]
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wigglestick
Nov 29, 2001, 4:35 PM
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Place pro so that your fall factor does not exceed 1.0. It is as simple as that. Yes that means that if you are at the top of a 50m pitch and your last piece was at 25m, and you placed it well and it can withstand 2000 lbs of force than you can take the big ride and the piece will hold. You might hit the ground because of rope stretch but are assuming you are higher up on a multipitch route.
But that also means that if you are 5 feet above the belay that you had better have a bomber piece at 2.5 feet from the belay. Are you starting to get it. The actual distance is not what matters it is the fall factor.
Now when you find a route that allows you to place pro is such an anal retentive way than let me know. Other than places with splitter cracks like Indian creek, your placement options will be limited. So you have to use your best judgement. And that we cannot help you with.
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newbieclimber
Nov 29, 2001, 5:13 PM
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Place pro so that your fall factor does not exceed 1.0. It is as simple as that.(wigglestick)
wrong. fall factor is just the the length of rope out divided by the distance fallen. that completely ignores how much force your gear can withstand. if your gear is poor and can withstand only 1000 lbs of force the spacing of your gear will be different than if the gear is fairly bomber and can withstand 2000 lbs of force. since the force on your gear is directly proportional to the distance you fall you can space out your pro twice as far when your gear can withstand 2000 lbs of force verses 1000 lbs of force.
next!
[ This Message was edited by: newbieclimber on 2001-11-29 09:21 ]
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wigglestick
Nov 29, 2001, 5:32 PM
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Sorry newbie but you are wrong and this is the last time I am going to bother explaining it to you. The force you apply to your gear is not proportional to the distance you fall. It is proportional to the fall factor. A fall of fall factor 1.0 regard less of if it is a 50 meter fall or a 5 meter fall places pretty close to the same force on the gear. That is the magic of the dynamic cord. Besides, I was using the value of 2000 lbs per your original post
Quote:assuming your pro will withstand up to 2000 lbs of force, what is the correct spacing of pro on a 165 ft. pitch so that it will prevent you from decking in case you fall?
Pinscar- I think you forgot to carry the one or misused the laplace transform. I come up with a value of 6.6456348 feet per placement. FYI
[ This Message was edited by: wigglestick on 2001-11-29 09:39 ]
[ This Message was edited by: wigglestick on 2001-11-29 09:41 ]
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talons05
Nov 29, 2001, 6:53 PM
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Newbie "i've never done a trad lead in my life" climber:
'"place it whenever you come to a good stance or rest spot"
certainly none of which can even qualify as intelligent advice.'
You fool. You have never climbed trad, so of course you have no idea what he is talking about. Unless you can hang from a sloping crimper with no foot support long enough to get in a solid cam or hex placement, then you aren't going to make a placement from that spot, whether it's necessary or not. I can't wait to hear the story of your first trad lead on 5.6 when you have to go and post in the "Accidents and Injuries" forum.
AW
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newbieclimber
Dec 1, 2001, 4:58 AM
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"The force you apply to your gear is not proportional to the distance you fall. It is proportional to the fall factor." (wigglestick)
correct (though with a given amount of rope out the force you apply to your gear is also proportional to the distance you fall). however advising climbers that building a safe system involves nothing more than keeping your fall fators under 1 is wrong. that is the same as the advice given in a previous post which said you only needed to place gear just often enough so that the length of the rope plus rope stretch did not reach the ground. its wrong because the forces generated by less than factor 1 falls are more than enough to rip out gear with a holding power of 2000 lbs.
"Besides, I was using the value of 2000 lbs per your original post." (wigglestick)
really? then how should you space your gear if all your protection has a holding power of 2500 lbs.
next!
[ This Message was edited by: newbieclimber on 2001-12-02 01:00 ]
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naturalhigh
Dec 3, 2001, 7:24 AM
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I think I can make this simple. When leading, YOU DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH FORCE YOUR GEAR WILL HOLD. So we can, therefore, dispense with all the numbers concerning holding power and such, being purely academic and irrelevent to the field. Pure and simple, experience shows that gear can hold when placed properly, and sometimes not. Therefore, it is a bit of a crap shoot, but we just have to do the best we can.
Moving on. We have the fall factor to consider, plus the fact that we wish to design a system that won't allow us to deck. Regarding how often to space pro to prevent decking I refer you to the earlier post with the very nice pictures. Of course, like others have mentioned, you just might not be able to place pro at that height. Crack filled with moss, climbing a clean face with no pro opportunities, unable to place pro since you are relying on both hands to hold you to the wall, etc. Such a stretch, where you can't place pro for time w/o falling is called being RUNOUT. IT HAPPENS
Now, let's look at fall factor. According to your earlier post, fall factor 2 is not the highest fall factor. Really? Let's see, assuming you climb a full pitch of 50m (using meters since real calculations are done in meters and kN, not feet and pounds) and don't place any pro, except at the belay, and then peel off, you will fall 100m before the rope begins to stretch. Now, last time I checked, 100m/50m = 2. In fact, if you can think of a way to generate a fall factor greater than 2 (not accounting for the minor increase due to rope stretch, which doesn't really count anyways (which would be btw, using the fall distance acheived at halfway point of stretch, be equal to 2.05, assuming 10% stretch)), then I'll give you the Noble Prize. Please, in your next post, show me your calculation that gives you a fall factor greater than 2.
So, let's see. We have told you the proper distances to place gear, down to giving you precise numbers even. You have been warned that this is not always possible, and to adjust accordingly (ie improvise on the spot... it's called thinking). In addition, you are right to mistrust your gear! It could fail you! If that's a big worry, go sit at home a watch tv or take up underwater basket weaving; it'll be safer.
To sum up how to place pro on a trad route:
*Place gear often early, spacing out as you climb higher.
*Also place gear when you it is easiest to do so, conserving your energy when on a difficult stretch.
*Learn to read the rock and understand how solid a placement is - PRACTICE THIS.
*Find an experienced trad climber to show you the ropes. How do you know they know what they're doing? They are still alive.
Next!
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wigglestick
Dec 3, 2001, 3:37 PM
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I don't mean to defend Newbieclimber but I will take that nobel prize if it is still up for grabs.
Imagine this you have a belay station set up and you start to lead above it. You are 20 feet above your belayer and have no protection in yet. You fall and since your belayer was so nervous about this very scenario she begins to yard in rope so that you don't fall as far. So while you are falling she pulls in 5 feet of slack. So the total distance you fall is 20+15=35 feet. However there is now only 15 feet of rope out which means your fall factor=35/15=2.33!!! Not very likely scenario but it could happen. Belayers take note. Taking in that extra slack is not doing anybody any favors.
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darkside
Dec 3, 2001, 6:28 PM
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Good point wigglestick. very true but newbie will disagree anyway.
Newbie you are obviously a moron who will not heed advise but here's some anyway: go climb sport or boulder.
If you want to place gear try every foot and with a little luck maybe some of the placements will hold.
BTW weight and force are not the same. Force is an effect resulting from mass moving over a distance, in this case(climbing)the formula is
FORCE = MASS X GRAVITY
Mass and weight are not the same, as mass is a constant while weight is dependant on gravity. When a man goes to the moon he weighs less but his mass remains unchanged. Gravity has changed. When a climber falls his mass does not change, his weight does not change, gravity does not change: the distance he falls may change and therefore the force he exerts on the pro may change. It would seem you don't understand this subtle point of physics anymore than trad.
NEXT.
Grant
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newbieclimber
Dec 3, 2001, 7:12 PM
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"When leading, YOU DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH FORCE YOUR GEAR WILL HOLD. So we can, therefore, dispense with all the numbers concerning holding power and such, being purely academic and irrelevent to the field. Pure and simple, experience shows that gear can hold when placed properly, and sometimes not." (naturalhigh)
wrong. clearly as a starting point it would be unwise to assume your gear can withstand more force than the rated strength. even though you can never know with certainty what forces your gear will be able to withstand before pulling out of the rock you can make educated assumptions up to what forces you have a near certainty it will hold. in fact if you are unable to do that you probably shouldnt be trad climbing at all.
as for your disdain for numbers and holding powers as being irrelevant and academic i for one am happy that companies like black diamond take those numbers very seriously when testing their gear.
assuming that all your gear has a holding power of 2000 lbs is a good place to start. those placements would all be fairly bomber a long as your gear is rated higher than that. it makes sense that you should know how often to place pro when your gear is good so that if you have to place some gear that is less than bomber you will know how much sooner you need to place the next piece.
"BTW weight and force are not the same." (darkside)
i never said they were. i said weight is a force. generally, a force on a body is given by the equation:
F = ma
where m=mass and a=acceleration
weight is given by the equation
W = mg
where g is the acceleration of gravity.
"Force is an effect resulting from mass moving over a distance, in this case(climbing)the formula is
FORCE = MASS X GRAVITY" (darkside)
wrong. so if a climber is hanging from her gear and is not moving you are saying there is no force on her gear since no mass is moving? a mass can be at rest and forces can still be acting on it. "work" on the other hand is the result of a force applied over a distance. also notice that your formula for force is actually the formula for weight yet you argue that force and weight are not the same.
next!
[ This Message was edited by: newbieclimber on 2001-12-03 12:37 ]
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jds100
Dec 3, 2001, 7:42 PM
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It's already been established that Newbie is a complete prick and idiot (a perfect example of why first-cousins shouldn't marry), so this is in response to Wigglestick.
I'm not sure, but I think you're scenario for a 2.33 factor fall isn't quite correct. I might not understand all the math, but I, too, thought a Factor 2 fall was the max, so... I think that if the belayer somehow miraculously draws in 5 feet of rope in the initial milisecond of the otherwise 20 foot fall, that reduces the length of the rope that's out, but not the actual length above the last piece of pro, which is still 20 feet, and still the denominator in the equation, I think. Thus: (20+15=35)/20, and that's less than a Factor 2 fall (1.75). Your equation uses the length of the rope that's out as the denominator, not the actual height above the last piece of pro.
Did I use the wrong number for the denominator? If I am correct, then I apologize for the loss of the Nobel Prize, but there are still plenty of other categories.
Now, let's all click our heels together, and try to send Newbie back to Kansas for some appropriate trad climbing.
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newbieclimber
Dec 3, 2001, 7:50 PM
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"I might not understand all the math, but I, too, thought a Factor 2 fall was the max.."
fall factor is the distance fallen divided by the length of rope between the belayer and the climber. the length of rope out when the climber begins to decelerate is important because it is what absorbs a lot of the force. it does not matter whether the length of rope is above the last piece or not. all of the rope between the belayer and the climber is available to absorb the force of the fall. if you believe that only the rope between the last piece and the climber absorbs the forces of the fall then you must believe there is no tension applied to the rope between the last piece and the belayer. if that were the case then the belayer could unhook the belay device and walk away and the climber wouldn't hit the deck.
[ This Message was edited by: newbieclimber on 2001-12-03 12:07 ]
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jds100
Dec 3, 2001, 7:54 PM
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By the way, for anyone other than the arrogant a$$hole who started this forum, I believe the ratings on the gear -the numbers expressing "strength", etc.- refer to breakage of the component materials, and have nothing to do with how the piece will perfom on the rock. Obvious to most, but not all, is the fact that there are different types of rock, and even the same chunk of rock can be less secure from one season to the next.
This trad gear is made of materials that in and of themselves will not break, up to the stated loads; the numbers have nothing to do with the quality of the rock, nor with the quality of the actual placement -use- of the piece of gear. The climber has to know the rock, and how to properly and effectively place the gear.
The premise, question and scenario that the SmugOne started with are all false. That's why everyone has had to work so hard to answer the question: because we had to redefine it first.
Kansas, Kansas, Kansas....
[ This Message was edited by: jds100 on 2001-12-03 11:56 ]
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jds100
Dec 3, 2001, 8:02 PM
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The response by Smug-n-Arrogant, above, has nothing to do with explaining why a Factor 2 Fall is or is not the maximum Fall Factor. There is no question as to the length of rope between the belayer and the climber.
Wiggle: my question is what part of the matrix is the correct denominator in the equation?
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wigglestick
Dec 3, 2001, 8:02 PM
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jds100- you did the math correctly but you used the value of 20 for the length of the rope out. Remember that only 15 feet of rope is absorbing the fal since the belayer took in 5 feet. So it is 20 (distance above the last piece) + 15 (distance the climber will fall past the belay) = 35 (total length of fall)
35/15 (length of rope that is absorbing the fall) = 2.33
I realize this is a pretty contrived scenario but it could happen. Especially with sport climbers. Imagine the climber falls before clipping the second bolt and yells "TTTAAAAAKKKKKKKEEEEE"
The belayer wil draw in the slack while the climber comes down. Now this fall factor will not exceed 2 but the point is that by bringing in that extra few feet of slack you are unwittingly increasing the fall factor. But if it keeps you partner from hitting the ground than go for it. I only post this as food for thought for belayers.
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jds100
Dec 3, 2001, 8:13 PM
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Thanks, Wiggle; I just went to the Petzl site, as directed by your link in the earlier part of this forum (duh!), and according to the formula there (which is the Gold standard), your scenario CAN create a Fall Factor greater than 2. Excellent point!
And, I apologize to everyone from Kansas; I hope you can understand my hope to send Schist-Head back to the other side of the rainbow.
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atg200
Dec 3, 2001, 8:26 PM
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Hi,
Yup, fall factors can go pretty high. That is why via ferratas are so dangerous without load limiters of some kind on the lanyard.
newbie is an illustration of another good formula:
A = P/E
where P = arrogant posturing level
and E = actual trad experience
plugging in values of
A = 100/1
we see that newbieclimber has an A(asshole) factor of a perfect 100.
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newbieclimber
Dec 3, 2001, 9:30 PM
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"I realize this is a pretty contrived scenario but it could happen. Especially with sport climbers. Imagine the climber falls before clipping the second bolt and yells "TTTAAAAAKKKKKKKEEEEE"
The belayer wil draw in the slack while the climber comes down. Now this fall factor will not exceed 2 but the point is that by bringing in that extra few feet of slack you are unwittingly increasing the fall factor. But if it keeps you partner from hitting the ground than go for it." (wigglestick)
wrong. in that scenario the belayer will be reducing the fall factor by taking in rope.
with any falls less than factor 1 if a belayer is able to take in rope the fall factor is reduced. with fall factors over 1 taking in rope increases the fall factor.
next!
[ This Message was edited by: newbieclimber on 2001-12-03 23:55 ]
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wigglestick
Dec 3, 2001, 9:50 PM
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Ok, I admit it. You are right this time. I wrote without thinking. But when I wrote it I was trying to contrive a situation where the fall factor would be greatest while sport climbing. And I guess I didn't think it through enough. But it didn't slip through did it? Newbie wins. Next.
"He does have a point"
"That's his head"
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graniteboy
Dec 4, 2001, 5:59 AM
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Newbie: you seem pretty pissy and opinionated abt this whole thing. I suggest you do what I do; Freesolo. Then you don't have to worry abt all that stupid clanky gear, and (in your case) you won't be acting like a smart ass know it all (who is allegedly a neophyte as well) and making your partner want to kill you. Nothing makes me wanna chop my alpine partners up into itsy bitsy pieces with my sacred ice tools more than them being a know it all beginner.
So here's an even BETTER scenario than all the crap you wrote above: Newbie's been talking crap to his grouchy old trad partner about all this, and then he starts to lead. His partner decides to fix Newbie's wagon, and takes him off belay when NewB is 50 feet up, and solos up to newbie while Newbie's pissing his pants. Then the grouchy old trad passes Newbie just before Newbie peels. How much force did Newbie apply to the ground? 2000 lbs???
PS newB; it's possible to take a fall w/ higher than force factor 2. Just clip into one of those euro-cables directly with a biner sometime, and jump off from 30 feet above the last anchor point. You will snap your back and produce a force factor 3 or more, easily.
A lead rope kink getting snagged in something (like a crack) while you fall can produce the same effect: 50 ft fall on 1 foot of rope. Geez; Imagine...
[ This Message was edited by: graniteboy on 2001-12-03 22:03 ]
[ This Message was edited by: graniteboy on 2001-12-03 22:10 ]
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darkside
Dec 4, 2001, 9:45 AM
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Newbie, newbie, newbie. What are we to do. I've been re-reading some of the other forums you've posted in and why is it that you seem so determined to cause strife. Maybe you are a newbie climber(???) but you are by no means new to upsetting people. I could find fault with your arguments but I tire of banging my head on this wall. I do not intend to post in this forum any more. How about we all leave newbie to his own......
Next
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newbieclimber
Dec 5, 2001, 10:03 AM
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Its not a gym, video game, or other controlled enviroment, its not like
"well, I have gone 5.43 ft since my last placement, which I estimate can hold 1912 lb, since I won't reach a terminal velocity, and my fall factor will be .34, I should be able to go another 3.42 ft before making another placement, only operating at 45 percent of the placements optimal yield strength and thereby climbing safely." Just place as often as you can.(chriserickson)
wrong. it actually is much like you describe! a good trad climber controls the part of the environment that she is able to by building a system of protection that will keep her off the deck 99.999% of the time when she should fall. for the rest of you, if you keep at it long enough and take enough falls on your place-gear-whenever-you-can-systems you will eventually end up in ANAM unless you are exceedingly lucky. i aspire to be a good trad climber not a fatality. thank you for your help.
next!
[ This Message was edited by: newbieclimber on 2001-12-05 02:29 ]
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graniteboy
Dec 6, 2001, 1:17 AM
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Newbie: I submit again that you are a fool. I'm one of those people who has been "placing gear when I can", and often doing so while guiding and teaching know it all A$$holes like yourself, for nearly 3 decades. I am not, nor shall I become, a fatality statistic. I, like many of the experienced climbers you disdain in these forum posts, have many thousands of days of hard climbing under my belt. Far more than you will ever have. And I'm still at it. You just don't get it, do you? You come on these forums just to piss people off. In one of your posts, you advocated drying washed ropes in the direct sun, and/or drying them in a dryer. You are knowledgeless. I think we all know what the problem is; you have some serious need for a psychotherapist, partly because your parents raised you poorly, and partly because you are a weakling who can't climb and has no judgement in the mountains. You instead choose to act like an a$$hole toward those who have decades of experience and judgement in the mountains. I'm not supposing anything wrong if I say that I bet you have climbed less than 50 days a year, while many of us are out climbing 200 or 300 days a year. Experience counts, and whining yuppies like you, with no experience at all, make climbing a bad Karma experience for yourselves. Btw; that falling rock and head injury do have your name written all over them. Instant Karma's gonna get you. Please leave my sport/religion, and remove your negative emotions from the climbing community.
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naturalhigh
Dec 6, 2001, 2:13 AM
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ll said Graniteboy!
wigglestick: good point on how to increase the fall factor. I didn't think that anyone would be stupid enough to consider doing that, but there it is. =)
Climbing Nobel Prize to wigglestick
Another climber pointed out that having the rope snag on an edge could also create a fall factor greater than two... i'm having trouble imagining that scenario, unless there was a knot (for somereason) in the rope that got lodged in a constriction after you had already fallen a good distance.. possible I suppose, but the action of a belayer is the more likely scenario.
As for newbieclimber: my "disdain for numbers" is simply a matter of relevance. I can tell you that as someone working on their PhD in Biophysics, that I work with numbers and molecular kinetics all the time. But in real science, (since you obviously haven't spent much time outside of a text book), if you don't know the exact numbers, it often doesn't matter anyways. So, when climbing, I leave it up to the gear manufacturers to design gear that will hold a fall. But, since the placement itself introduces innumerable variables into the system, calculating, or even assuming, a piece will hold so much weight is quite impossible. Therefore, we must rely on observed evidence: Pro does hold falls; sometimes more than it's rated, sometimes less. Basically, it will hold or it won't. That's all there is to it.
[ This Message was edited by: naturalhigh on 2001-12-05 19:29 ]
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graniteboy
Dec 6, 2001, 2:47 AM
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The means of increasing the fall factor thing that wiggle brings up has been used, and will continue to be used. I was talking to Chris Cantwell (author of the "Hall of Mirrors" on the apron) a couple of long whiles ago, and they were looking at some very serious runouts on that thing. To keep from having to take 100 footers all the time, they'd have the belayers (2 of them) yard in rope really quickly if the leader popped. Not too smart, but it beats adding another 30 feet to your fall sometimes. Esp when a ledge is coming up at you quickly.
I've personally chosen to yard rope in when I know my leader is falling and will hit a ledge or flake or other legbreaker if I don't yard rope in. Sounds silly to the uninitiated, but again, in the real world, you have to know that the math is secondary to the reality, or you'll end up in trouble.
Newbie: take up chess, and quit climbing. It suits your mathematical but impractical and pissy whining child temperament perfectly.
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naturalhigh
Dec 6, 2001, 3:30 AM
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Your point is indeed valid graniteboy... i should avoid making such an overgeneralization. Taking up rope during a leader fall does have it's place.
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timhinck
Dec 13, 2001, 3:54 AM
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Newbieclimber:
I can't help thinking -reading many of your previous posts - that with all your number crunching and analyzing, you might be taking some of the fun out of your climbing experience. For me, rock climbing isn't a sience, it's not something that I can calculate and I can NEVER be perfectly sure that I'm not going to get injured or die, but that is part of the experience for me. I try to climb safely, but if all I do is compute the variables in my climbing, I might as well still be in the office.
I hope that soon you get out and find a crack that looks so amazing that you can't wait to sink your hands into it. Then I want you to climb to the top, placing gear where you think it best to, and then, I hope you are overwhelmed by your achievement. I hope you realize that nothing got you up the climb except your skills... no numbers.. not even the rope or the gear. I hope that this accomplishment changes your perspective of climbing and that you learn to stop thinking too hard and start living.
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talons05
Dec 13, 2001, 6:54 AM
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Will this post not DIE???? Aaaaaaaaaaaaa.... I just helped it live.... Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.....
AW
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clmbngfiend
Dec 13, 2001, 7:06 AM
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thank you JDS100 for your wonderful point.
Newbie i have a question for you. What is the exact amount of weight the granite on El Cap can hold, how about on Whitehorse in New Hampshire, what about the Gunks, what about red rocks, what about J-Tree, what about Patagonia, what about the himilayas. You don't know. If you want to be a safe climber and not one of the fatalities stay in the gym. Climbing outdoors is not a scientific process. Sure you know what a piece of gear will hold in a perfect placement. How many placements are perfect? In fact if you want to be safe don't climb at all. There is a theoretical possibility that your harness buckle could break. You've seen cliffhanger right? In fact why don't you just not leave the house ever. There is a theoretical possibility that you could be hit by a bus walking down a street, or struck by lightning, or robbed. Why don't you turn off your computer. There is the theoretical possibility of lightning hitting your house on a clear day, running threw your electrical wires jumping out of your computer and frying your brain on the spot. Life isn't science, get over it.
Faithfully yours
Climbing fiend
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newbieclimber
Dec 21, 2001, 7:00 PM
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"What is the exact amount of weight the granite on El Cap can hold, how about on Whitehorse in New Hampshire, what about the Gunks, what about red rocks, what about J-Tree, what about Patagonia, what about the himilayas." (climbingfiend)
2000 lbs. was the assumption in the question.
"There is a theoretical possibility that your harness buckle could break. You've seen cliffhanger right?" (climbingfiend)
was that a documentary?
"There is the theoretical possibility of lightning hitting your house on a clear day, running threw your electrical wires jumping out of your computer and frying your brain on the spot." (climbingfiend)
wrong. I have a surge protector.
next!
[ This Message was edited by: newbieclimber on 2001-12-24 22:43 ]
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dhoyne
Dec 21, 2001, 7:33 PM
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I've always gone by the rules of:
Place early, place often.
and
Place whenever you get get comfortable.
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crux_clipper
Dec 24, 2001, 11:36 PM
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I place above me, when me feet are at about the level of the last peice of protection. Although i am 6'1", this means my protection can be between 6-7 foot apart. I find this ample.
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elcapbuzz
Jan 30, 2002, 9:37 AM
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Newbie, why are you asking such stupid questions. If you know so much why ask at all. And whats with this "next" sh#t. People are trying to help you, there spending there precious time to make a difference. Why the attitude.
Ok, either newbieclimber is a hoax that likes to stir up trouble. (Personally, I think your someone who is a some-what experienced climber who likes to mess with peoples heads) Or a complete a**hole that needs to be commited.
Either way, you should stop wasting our time. YOUR HOPELESS.
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madscientist
Jan 30, 2002, 2:56 PM
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I am actually going to answer the question, in a perfect world. My analysis is approximate, and does not take into account that the force the rope feels is not constant. It also completely ignores friction, which turns out to be important. With these assumptions, the force on the rope is (W/e)*f where:
W = weight of climber
e = percent enlongation of rope
f = fall factor.
Let me note some of the problems with this. The percent enlongation depends on the force being applied, so this is not really the number you look up in the books, but is probably close and around 0.1 or 10%. I don't know how they calculate this, but if I did I could use that information to come up with a better analysis. Many years ago, there was something on the internet where someone measured the forces on a rope. This analysis came close to the maximum force in a fall.
The truth is that this science does not work when you are climbing. You have to pay attention to the rock quality, the quality of the placement. The amount the belayer moves, and the amount that the rope slips through the belay device matters. These are things that are beyond our control. There are just too many factors involved outside anything definate about the safety of your gear. Even how well oiled your camms are makes a difference. Just stack the odds in your favor, and enjoy what you do.
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natec
Jan 30, 2002, 4:38 PM
Post #64 of 65
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Registered: Dec 13, 2001
Posts: 667
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Newbie,
I have been following this post for quite a while, and I have tried to refrain from posting but there is a serious variable that has been left out of all this factoring.
This post was about how far the gear should be spaced not about calculating the fall factor.
With that said, the factor that has been left out is FEAR. This is something you know nothing about because it is quite visible to all who have read your postings that you have never lead a trad route.
If you want to cut out all possibility of becoming a fatality, don't climb. Every piece of gear that you buy comes with a little warning that you could die while climbing.
If you want to stay relatively safe, place the most solid gear possible every time you feel necessary.
Necessary, by the way, means everytime you poop your pants at the thought of taking a fall from where you are currently located. If you can find pro everytime that happens, consider yourself a lucky man.
I would think its safe to say that the other real climbers (unlike yourself who sits behind a computer all the time wishing he could get his scardy ass off the ground) would agree with this post.
Fear is one of the biggest factors controlling the trad climbing game. Factor it out by giving yourself good gear while available and you won't need your fall calculator.
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passthepitonspete
Jan 31, 2002, 2:49 AM
Post #65 of 65
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Registered: Oct 10, 2001
Posts: 2183
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Spoken in Arnold Schwarzenegger accent:
"I am nev-ah scared..."
[Read the brown box at the very bottom]
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