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evoltobmilc
Feb 6, 2003, 2:12 AM
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My buddy and I have a problem we've been trying to solve for the last year or so, and I thought that maybe you had a suggestion, Pete. We scoped this gorgeous new line somewhere in the southwest on sandstone. We aided the first 200 feet of the route at up to A3+, and then we ran into the problem: an overhanging (overhanging in 2 directions, that is, the whole wall is overhanging, and the chimney leans slightly right), seriously flared, sandy chimney. We've tried free climbing it, but it's just so sandy, and because of both the flare and overhanging nature, it just wants to spit you right out so easily. We tried the #5 Camalot in the way back to aid on, but it's too flared to take it. Same for the biggest BigBro at any depth in the chimney- just too flared. We will not drill holes to get past it, even though it is a quite short (30 ft.) impasse to an otherwise beautiful 600 ft. line. Any suggestions for aiding this ugly motha?
We're willing to try about anything at this point, except drilling. Thanks!!
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dsafanda
Feb 6, 2003, 2:18 AM
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I'm sure you've already thought of this but just in case...considered large offset cams in the back of the chimney where you tried placing the number#5? WildCountry make em big. Still too flaring?
[ This Message was edited by: dsafanda on 2003-02-05 18:19 ]
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bluesky
Feb 6, 2003, 2:41 AM
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Might be more damaging than cams, but might give you some more size - and very heavy - but what about car jacks? Semi-kidding as other options might work before this - but hey?
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mesomorf
Feb 6, 2003, 2:44 AM
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Big cams stacked with 2x dimensional lumber?
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evoltobmilc
Feb 6, 2003, 3:53 AM
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there are offset cams out there in the larger sizes?? I've only ever seen offset cams in the smaller range, like the offset Aliens.
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apollodorus
Feb 6, 2003, 8:22 AM
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The biggest WC Offset Friend is a #4 mated to a #3.5.
How big is the crack, from the smallest to the widest? I might have something that would work.
[ This Message was edited by: apollodorus on 2003-02-06 00:24 ]
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evoltobmilc
Feb 6, 2003, 3:00 PM
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The crack is HUGE. At the outside of the chimney, at its widest, it probably measures 12-14 inches wide. At the back it gets down to a size where the #5 Camalot seems like it should fit, but it's too flared to stick. I'd say that at that point it's about 5-6 inches (??). The thing of it is that the angle, the way the thing narrrows down in the back is so funky that you never seem to see a proper crack. I've never seen anything quite like it before. It's sorta similar to Wall Street's "El Cracko Diablo" near Moab in size and shape, but there's a great finger crack at the back of that thing, and at the back of ours it seems like it never gets small, and also never gets paralell (which I know is not really possible, geometrically, but that's just what it's seeming like...)
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gawd
Feb 6, 2003, 4:50 PM
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wedge wood
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mountainmonkey
Feb 6, 2003, 4:51 PM
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cams will work in flares, especially if it is only for body weight - *if* the rock is decent. did you weight the cam and it popped?
I have used a big cam in a downward flaring sandstone (moab) crack to pull past a crux. try the #6 friend - it is bigger (and better) than the #5 camalot. valley giant cams? are there any features to pendi to? hook features?
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flamer
Feb 6, 2003, 11:17 PM
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What about bongs? You could either make some big ones or go to the junk yard and cut off some stovelegs !
josh
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philbox
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Feb 6, 2003, 11:20 PM
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Try a block of wood a hammer and a saw, yeah carpentery 101. Hey it`s aid climbing, whatever works right. Wouldn`t be the first time this has been used.
...Phil...
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apollodorus
Feb 7, 2003, 4:32 AM
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It sounds like a #9-#12 Valley Giant hybrid would fit perfect. Too bad it doesn't exist. Yet.
Is the angle of the flare too much for the cams to stick without sliding out sideways?
Can you get two of the #5 Camalot cams to stick, with the other two hanging in space? Or do two cams pull out, like shifting sideways and down under load? I'm not suggesting you try to stand on it, but it'll give you some idea if the flare will take some sort of cam.
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evoltobmilc
Feb 7, 2003, 4:42 AM
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Oh trust me- we've definitely tried weighting cams. Over and over again. The first time my partner thought it would stick, so he gives it a gentle bounce, it stayed, and just as he relaxed it popped out and he fell right on his ass onto the ledge that he'd been standing on. It's just a good thing that he didn't get one or two to stick, then fall onto the ledge.
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djmeat
Feb 7, 2003, 5:07 AM
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want to borrow my number 6 wild country its pretty red and FREAKIN HUGE!!!!!!!(533 grams + beaner)
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apollodorus
Feb 7, 2003, 5:19 AM
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I thought the WC 6 was green. At least that's what my catalog shows. The red is #5.
Does that crack have less flare to it as it gets bigger? What about using a cam right out at the edge, where it's 12 inches?
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evoltobmilc
Feb 7, 2003, 5:37 AM
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Same flare all the way out.
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apollodorus
Feb 7, 2003, 6:19 AM
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So the flare is constant, all the way from the back to the outer edge. And cams won't hold in the back. That would indicate they won't hold anywhere, no matter how big a cam, or whatever sort of hydrid you stick in.
How deep is the crack, in going from 5-6" to 12-14"? In other words, what is the angle of the flare?
If I understand the situation, the crack's walls are flat and overhanging, but flare out like an open book. The flare spits the cam out sideways. The sideways friction of the cam lobes isn't enough to overcome the flare angle.
Also, since the crack is overhanging, the flare would seem worse than the same crack if it were vertical. Maybe a special cam, with a very tight cam angle (8 or 10 degrees, instead of the WC and BD 14) would stick.
Another thing that comes to mind would be to wear some grooves in the crack for the cam lobes to ride in. They wouldn't have to be very deep or long, just enough to provide a track to keep cam from shifting sideways. This would be chipping, and only the same cam would fit in the grooves, so this is not a great idea.
I'm just brainstorming, not suggesting you grind on the rock with pick of your Yosemite Hammer.
If you go up there again, take some photos and post them.
[ This Message was edited by: apollodorus on 2003-02-06 22:34 ]
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tanner
Feb 7, 2003, 7:09 AM
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I wanna see some one aid on a car jack!!!
Has any one ever done this before. To bad you just can't bolt it.
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apollodorus
Feb 7, 2003, 7:22 AM
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They COULD just bolt it, but that would ruin all the fun. Sandstone is the easiest stuff in the world to drill into. Much harder is figuring out how to get up without drilling.
"Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. The hard is what makes it great. If it wasn't hard, everybody would do it."
- "Jimmy", A League of Our Own
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evoltobmilc
Feb 7, 2003, 8:01 AM
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Thank you Appolo!!
Of course we could just bolt it, but it's damaging to the rock, and detracts from the climb. Only belay bolts are acceptable, as far as we're concerned.
Also, we feel that dowels and rivets have no place either. Add to that list bathook holes and any other enhancement of the rock. We figure once you drill any hole, however small, or artificially make the rock climbable, you might as well just drill a beefy 1/2 inch bolt that's SAFE. It's less contrived than a bathook.
I'm going out there in a couple of weeks, and I'll definitely take a bunch of photos. I'll also take some wood, and a carpentry saw out there and try pounding the sh&% out of it into the crack. That couldn't be any worse for the rock than standard pins, could it? One last thing: Know if any specific type of wood work better for this use than regular pine 2x4s or 4x4s??
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apollodorus
Feb 7, 2003, 8:16 AM
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Conventional framing timber, 2x4 and 4x4 (really?), is douglas fir, not pine. You can pick through the lumber you buy, and find pieces with fewer knots and other discontinuities in the grain. Cut your pitons from the best sections.
You can also buy hardwood at many lumber yards (oak, walnut, etc.), but there won't be too much advantage in using that. The softer doug-fir will probably bite better, and will be plenty strong for clipping holes you drill into it. DF is WAY cheaper, too.
Lumber yards also sell thin, tapered 2x DF shims. They have about the same taper as Lost Arrows.
[ This Message was edited by: apollodorus on 2003-02-07 01:23 ]
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brutusofwyde
Feb 8, 2003, 9:37 AM
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Big balsa bongs is best for beefy breaks this thick.
Big ol wedges of styrofoam also might do the trick.
Both are less damaging to the rock than the hardwood goods.
Brutus, just blowing smoke...
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coclimber26
Feb 8, 2003, 4:32 PM
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Cylinder car jack...try it, it works.
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pancaketom
Feb 8, 2003, 4:45 PM
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if you are feeling really bold, bring a long pole and stick gear on the end and go for the hail mary. Of course this would be pretty sketchy, but if it is all overhanging, then the fall would be all air).
good luck. sounds fun? or whatever the appropriate thing to call aid is.
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wallrat
Mar 10, 2003, 3:47 AM
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Ah, c'mon, if you're not psycho enough to lead it without pro, bolt the livin' sh*t out of it and climb on. The rest of the climbing community will thank you for a sane (tho not overbolted) route. If you can't make a cam stick for aid, what can you hope to actually fall on? OK, I can hear all you antibolt guys frothing at the mouth...remember I said sane, and NOT overbolted.
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rideandclimbkid
Mar 10, 2003, 4:18 AM
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got a little BWT goin here....
if you were to make a wedge out of douglas fir...pound it in the crack...you could PROBOBLY get even MORE bite by pounding a lost arrow into the middle of the wood. this would force the wedge even farther out further wedging the wedge lol....get it? then you could prolly just clip the pin in the wood. basically...wedge the crack with wood, then split the wood with a pin..the pin wedges the crack in the wood, the wood wedges the crack in the rock. i think that makes for less of an angle...but then...im in fundamentals of geometry haha
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pbjosh
Mar 10, 2003, 4:56 AM
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rideandclimbkid-
$20 says if you try putting an arrow in a piece of lumber 6-12" wide in a crack you will split the wood.
A further $20 says when you weight it the whole thing will fall apart and you'll be airborn.
josh
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bigdan
Mar 10, 2003, 7:03 AM
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if you tell me where it is, i'll tell you how to climb it.... (sinister laughing)
just kidding. good luck, sounds like a real desert adventure. let us know if you make any progress.
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base104
Mar 10, 2003, 3:26 PM
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I doubt the LA in the wood trick will work, either. I bet you just end up with two pieces of wood and an LA.
A long time ago I spent a summer in Chamonix with three other Americans, one of whom was the infamous Walt Shipley. One day I got this Welsh kid who had been hanging around and took him up the Brown/Whillans on the Blatiere (I led all the pitches and he jugged). The route was put up in 1954 and has this offwidth pitch called, appropriately, the FISSURE BROWN. The frenchies had, over the years, sewn this baby up with fat wooden wedges. That's all the pro you got for a ways, and they seemed bomber, even though some were pretty old. Now this was a parallel sided crack. It was near impossible to free climb around the wedges without stepping on them, they crowded the crack so much. What I managed to do convinced me it was probably hard 5.10, and was probably put up with no pro at all. Joe Brown was a badass. Whillans too.
So, wood wedges do work and have a history in Europe, anyway. I have no idea if they will work in a flaring beasty like you are describing. If you can't even get a cam to stick, I'm afraid you are going to have to get with your partner, knock back many beers, and get REALLY inventive. You say you can't even grovel back deep in the crack to get something to work?
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dingus
Mar 10, 2003, 3:55 PM
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I admire the tenacity of the FA team really trying to figure a non-chipping solution to this problem. I have no suggestions to add. However, a 30' cheater stick just may be the preservationist way... no pin scars, no chipping placement rails, no ledge falls, etc.
OK, let's say you find some horribly unconventional way around this impasse. You complete the line. As you rap into the sunset, will you be saying, "this route is unbelievable. Man are other climbers gonna drool over this one! It's gonna be a desert classic I just know it!" or will you be saying, "Ho hum, just another scary assed death climb in the desert no one else will ever bother with..."
If it's the latter, then your ethical decisions apply mostly to you and your partner. You'll perhaps get a metntion in a guide and bragging rights over, "See that route? That's MY route. Uh, no, don't bother. It's not that great."
But if it's the former, if you believe this has the potential for seeing a lot of traffic, then it may make sense to place a couple of bolts in that flair. Not for you, but for those who will follow. I don't know and maybe it's just me, but if I have to cut and customize my pro out of a pile of lumber in order to repeat a route, it is likely, very likely, that I will seek out another route.
I'm just suggesting that there may be a community service angle worth considering...
Course you could do whatever you wish and just not tell anyone where the route is.
DMT
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