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wandt
Jul 8, 2001, 8:46 AM
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You still didn't answer my question. What is the corelation between an outdoor climbing route and a painting?
And you missed the point of the whole make-your-own cliff part. I didn't call a sport climb a masterpiece. Maybe if you made your own cliff you would fill it with cracks. It makes no difference! I simply said that unless you create an entire crag on your onw with little or no help from nature, you can't take credit for it's inception, and should not act as if it is yours. Read carefully.
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wandt
Jul 8, 2001, 8:48 AM
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Oh yes... and how is chopping bolts looking out for one another?
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kagunkie
Jul 8, 2001, 1:56 PM
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Theres a time to drill and a time to refrain from drillllling. The best we can do is try to respect each other and the rock. Drill with honor and not like some backdoor bandit. If we dont observe at least some basic standards everyone is affected negativly, and hopefully someone will undoo the damage thats been done if possible. What happend to that post on ethics READ IT MEMORIZE IT LIVE BY IT.
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kagunkie
Jul 9, 2001, 6:20 AM
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Ground up first ascent, drill if you have to but remember that if you are not on unclimbed rock it could be BIG TROUBLE!
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wandt
Jul 9, 2001, 10:25 AM
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Still no answer and an even more garbled post from you. What's wrong? Is your arguement falling apart when you try to explain the corelation? I don't want to read between any lines. I want you to explain to me what you meant in written words and sentences- not implications or innuendos.
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jsm280
Jul 9, 2001, 5:44 PM
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Learining Trad to prevent the need for bolts.
I must agree there are some great bolted routes and several other places I would love to climb which have no place for pro and once bolted they would become a safe place to climb. This is where I have mixed feelings, if I could I would love to free solo these areas in order to prevent bolting. I am not to that level and not sure if I will ever mentaly be able to handle it. I am okay with top-ropeing these routes if possible and would rather top rope over bolting. There are some routes which can not be toproped and there is not any place for pro, I look at these places and dream... Not thinking about destruction of the rock.
I do not agree with chopping unless the bolts are dangerous. Anything man made on a rock which endangers the life of others should be removed period.
Perm rap rings are nice....
lets keep it as clean as possible
.
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wandt
Jul 10, 2001, 9:41 AM
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I'd probably "understand ethics" better if you could explain them to me in actual words. How does chopping bolts make a climb better? If the bolt is old, manky and not to be trusted then by all means, but why remove perfectly sound bolts?
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wandt
Jul 10, 2001, 9:50 AM
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After all, bolts are placed not as a malicious act or for aesthetic reasons, but to protect a climb. If they are placed on someone else's climb it may be by complete accident, as the crag could very well be a scruffy little used cliff with no evidence of it ever being climbed.
However, chopping bolts is not a favour to the rock. It doesn't change the fact that it has been drilled. Bolts don't emit fumes, pile up at the bottom of climbs, stick to the bottom of your shoes or smell up the area. Chopping them is a purely malicious act directed at the bolter. It doesn;t heal the rock. It only makes the bolter's effort a waste. Why do that to another climber? You're not forced to use the bolts.
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coach
Jul 10, 2001, 7:14 PM
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I agree somewhat with RockBuddha's post however one other aspect of the popularity of sport climbing is the cost. A lot of the younger/newer climbers cannot affort the cost of a full rack and furthermore don't want to make the investment until they are sure of their committment to the sport. A harness, chalk bag, shoes , biner and rope may be more in their price range and hence the popularity of sport climbing. I started that way and moved to trad climbing but still do a lot of sport climbing. As long as the sport is popularized we will see a lot of new and younger climbers joining and most of them will come in as sport climbers so they are concerned about the availability of bolted routes and from what I see at the crags there is no shortage. Most of the popular climbing areas don't need additional bolts added, there are plenty of routes of all rates so work with those within your capabilities, don't add bolts to a route just to bring it down to your level.
Climb On
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fiend
Jul 11, 2001, 12:45 AM
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And the battle rages on
Bolters VS Tradies
[ This Message was edited by: fiend on 2001-07-10 17:46 ]
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jds100
Aug 8, 2001, 12:55 AM
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'Sounds like this forum may be running out of steam, but I'll add this. I posted it originally in another forum on this website.
Also: I'm still mystified how any climber can merely add trad protection to a run-out sport (bolted) climb when there is no traditional/natural feature avaliable for protection. If features are available then the run-out was possibly intended to be protected with trad pro (a mixed-pro climb, which is sometimes the best way to have a great climb while respecting the rock; it requires committment and still maintains a degree of safety).
A couple of you said that it's okay to add a bolt "only when necessary". Well, who decides that? Don't add bolts without the permission of the first ascentionist, and/or the agreement of any group in recognized authority (group that is recognized by whatever land managers in a given climbing area that has been given some authority to self-govern, consult, advise, etc., with the land managers).
By the same token, don't chop bolts from established climbs. I can speak for a few areas in the country where I've been, and I know that committment is required on bolted climbs. Committment is not restricted to trad climbing. (By the way, "natural" protection would be such as in East Germany, where rope or slings are run through naturally occuring holes, etc. and then a biner is clipped to that, and the rope clipped to that. "Traditional" pro is the removable gear placed in naturally occuring features, such as cracks, pockets, etc. Where I have climbed, bolts occur only where traditional pro is not available, and with one exception (which local climbers put a stop to by consensus), the bolted climbs were quality hard routes that produced the same frustration and the same gratification, depending on the success achieved by the climber.
It's not about getting a name in a guidebook. It's about offering something to ones community, to see if they like it and it adds to the enjoyment, or, if not, it ends up reflecting badly on the climber who offered (authored) it. Where I do most of my climbing, if it's trash, it will be taken down after awhile (if it's bolted) with the knowledge and acquiesence of the climber if he or she can be contacted. Yes, the holes are filled and "restored" to their natural color.
In my local area we have had to deal again recently with this issue. We've had a rogue chopper vandalize private property, and also another group vandalize and threaten campers and climbers at a recognized (by the land managers and local user groups) climbing area where most routes are bolted, and the average level of difficulty is 5.12. There is trad climbing in the vicinity, as well, and in this specific area, but the area is more known as a sport climbing area.
Over a couple of decades, local climbers developed very good and productive relationships with the various land managers (local, state, federal), and part of that was the establishment of climbing as a recognized use of the lands. The climbing group educated the land management personnel about climbing, and about the need, in some situations, for permanent anchors. For example, permanent top anchors have saved the soil from erosion, have helped minimize the overdevelopment of trails and tramped down areas around clifftops as people would have otherwise been setting up long slings, etc., for top anchors, and certainly saved trees from dying prematurely from stress and overuse as anchors.
The best way to go about establishing or questioning a route is to start with the guidebook for the area. It will probably refer you to shops and/or gyms where you can get more info, and meet local climbers. It will probably give you the history of the area and specific routes, and probably outline a protocal for bolting or removing bolts (who to contact FIRST, etc.). Rogue actions can risk the relationships and hard work that made it possible for anyone to climb in a given area.
As climbers have gotten more skilled and stronger, there has been a concurrent need to climb "harder" climbs, and that has taken us out more and more onto the faces, away from cracks and protectable features. I've seen or heard Royal Robbins name invoked by these trad/eco-terrorists, and I find that more revealing of their ignorance than their spirit. Royal Robbins found himself in awe and respect of Harding's bolted route on El Cap that he (Robbins) had intended to chop; Robbins himself bolted, on Half Dome. And, while there are some (relatively few) trad HARD climbs, the huge majority of harder climbing is on the faces, overhangs, and even slabs that lack traditional protection placements.
If a climber doesn't want to clip a bolt, don't. With rare exception, I agree that that the first ascentionist has set the standard for a given climb, but he or she also can choose to allow bolting later (the Black Dike route on the back side of Half Dome, to name just one). Safety is one concern (as with Black Dike). The first ascentionist may also realize, too, that the risk factors that he or she was willing to accept on that particular day may have been extreme and unacceptable afterwards (stupid?). What if the first ascent is a free-solo? Does that mandate that every climber thereafter may only free-solo that route? What if a climber after the first ascent can do the route with one fewer bolt? Or free-solo it? Does that empower him or her to chop any offending bolt?
I suggest that the best thing to do is to get informed about the area you're concerned with; get involved if it's your own backyard. Respect the work and the climbers that came before you (the heritage and history of the area). Lock your ego in the glove compartment of the car before you hike to the climbs. Get a lot of advice before you bolt; get permission from whomever or whatever group you need to contact. Don't chop; contact the right person or group for information and/or to complain.
Hopefully we're moving past the days of grid-bolting, and rogue chopping, as well. I think the egregiously uninformed and the zealots are at the ever-shrinking extreme ends of the climbing spectrum, and that's to all our benefit.
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redpointadventures
Aug 9, 2001, 7:58 PM
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Several routes were recently bolted by an unnamed swiss climber at the New using new stainless bolts and hangers that look home made. The routes, I was told, were bolted on lead. Impressive for 5.11 and up. Although the routes were well executed, not over bolted, the climber failed to realize two things: (1) no new bolting is allowed in this area and (2) he bolterd over two classic routes with one climb. Not only does this create a danger to climbers, it shows no common sense in an area were you could'nt possibly climb all the sport routes available. Guides from the area will soon remove the bolts.
[ This Message was edited by: redpointadventures on 2001-08-09 13:03 ]
[ This Message was edited by: redpointadventures on 2001-08-09 16:15 ]
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jds100
Aug 10, 2001, 12:31 AM
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If you say that bolts should be added "only when absolutely necessary", please explain what that means exactly. "Absolutley necessary" is a notion subject to the ability, strength, committment -or any other of a number of variables- of the climber who may hold to that belief (i.e. okay to add bolts when absolutely necessary). Would you say it's okay to add bolts to the Bachar-Yerian in Tuolumne because it's runout between the few bolts, and the risk of dangerous falls are part of the route as intended by the first ascentionists? What does that mean: "okay to add bolts only when absolutely necessary"?!!
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kagunkie
Aug 10, 2001, 2:40 AM
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First ....Battle..... come back in five or ten years maby then you can have an opinion, and keep your gym climbing mentality in the gym. Also remember everything is simple when your eighteen, as you get older youll find that you know less than you think.
Second....Harold..I curse the son of a bitch who invented the electric drill and hope to GOD you never get your hands on one.
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kagunkie
Aug 10, 2001, 3:09 AM
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Forgive the harsh reply but its obvious to me that you have absolutly no idea what your talking about, so just go out and learn what climbing is and stop worrying about bolts.
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kagunkie
Aug 10, 2001, 3:18 AM
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If anyone "adds" bolts to a route that is already established or in an area that has a no bolt ethic they should be removed. Nothing more nothing less. What part of that dont you understand?
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jds100
Aug 10, 2001, 5:25 AM
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Kagunkie: I don't know if you're answering my question which was addressed to Harold, for one, who said that he would add bolts "only when absolutely necessary". I've already said that I don't want bolts added, etc., etc.; just read the earlier posting I made on this forum.
Harold (and anyone else who would add bolts): please explain your specific criteria for adding bolts to an established climb, whether bolt-protected or trad-protected. Please justify your unilateral actions. It's important to get a sense of your own ethical stance on this topic, obviously, since it's still such a hot button issue.
If you haven't climbed for long, keep at it, and climb with more varied people. Read the books about the history of climbing. Develop your ethics with a more full awareness of who came before you, and the issues that were around then, and how they were resolved.
Do you really mean to say that you would change an existing climb if YOU felt it was "necessary"?!!!
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jds100
Aug 10, 2001, 5:46 AM
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Harold: I looked at your profile after I posted; I respect your history and ablility.
I think you probably are fairly close to my own position on adding and chopping bolts. More than one person made the statement about adding when "necessary", and I simply don't want that to go by without asking them to consider exactly what that means. As you said you have allowed it, and I agree that if the author of the route agrees to re- or retrobolting, fine; or if there is a carefully considered consensus and following whatever protocol is observed in a given area. It just is not something that a climber should assume is OK for himself or herself to do. Peace.
By the way: do you have any idea what may have happened to climbingcentral.com. I know the Jackson Falls forum was yanked, but I haven't been able to get to the site at all now.
[ This Message was edited by: jds100 on 2001-08-09 22:48 ]
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kagunkie
Aug 10, 2001, 12:08 PM
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JDS.... I agree with alot of what you have expressed here and was not addressing you with my loud mouth post, you have said some things that every climber should hear and heed.
This is for scar...Im sure your a great guy and will become an asset to your local climbing community. Im just getting a little tired of hearing two year gym climbers who think they are going to re-write the book on the ethics of climbing in this country. If you dont have the experience necessary to have a valid oppinion on the subject please just do some reading (climbing history is a good start) and go climbing and have fun climbing. Dont worry about changing or creating any routes just go climbing and youll see from the routes already out there (and there are thousands) how its been done since long before you came along. Youv got to climb extensivly in more than one area and for more than one or two years to get a feel for how climbing routes are "created" or protected might be a better term. And dont forget gym climbing teaches you how to do moves and belay to a certain extent but has absolutly no value when it comes to learning the ethics of the outdoor world of climbing. I hope your listening and not just getting pissed becaus someone is telling you something you dont want to hear, that doesnt help anyone!
Harold....I was out of line with my reply to you and say sorry about that, but I dont like to see established routes retro-bolted and it really pisses me off to see bolted routes popping up at an area that has been established as a traditional area especially when its specifically banned or forbidden by those who are charged with the care of that area. So go and make your routes just do it in an area that it is specifically allowed. Im still cursing those damn electric drills, if hand placing was the only option we would all be better off.
Quote:99% die hard "trad" climbers that can't get off the ground on
most of the routes they chop. They are stricken with what I would call pulling envy.
When they see someone climb what they would
never attempt it enrages them to no end.
There envious ego kicks in and out comes the
crow bar. My advice to these people is to
spend more time training, climbing and less time "politicing" and "pouting"This sounds like character slamming to me.I dont think this sweeping statment has two ounces of truth or is going to help anyone. It is designed to incite.
Im not big and burly or a climbing god. Im just a climber who has seen alot of change in climbing and not all of it is good. Climbing and the areas where its done are my babys and Ill defend them to the end. Do you understand?
[ This Message was edited by: kagunkie on 2001-08-10 08:35 ]
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jds100
Aug 10, 2001, 3:45 PM
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Well said, Keith. Scar: relax and climb, enjoy.
Keith: in the years that you've seen things change, do you get any sense that things are sort of shaking out, where the general perception could be that most people are getting a handle on how to respect and preserve the climbing resources? Where people no longer go out and grid-bolt a blank wall, and then look to develop routes? I personally get a sense that the pendulum has swung towards careful consideration and cooler heads. Other the occassional eco- or trad-terrorist who chops bolts from climbs he knows nothing about, including off of private property, the area where I spend most of my climbing time seems to have "graduated" from the wars of the past decade or two (hopefully). But, I haven't been around the scene for all that long (7+ years), and I can't possibly overstate how enthralled I am to listen to the local climbers of the area who have lived it, developed it, sometimes fought it, and worked out the great relationship with the land managers.
It kind of reminds me of the stories of when Ray Jardine first brought his spring loaded camming device to Yosemite, and most of the climbers there and may elsewhere decried the device as cheating. Of course, over the years, SLCDs have become standard on the rack. Where there is no parallel with SLCDs and bolts is in the permanent nature of the damage done by bolts, and, perhaps more importantly, in the swarming of areas from careless and sloppy over-development. Maybe a wall is grid-bolted, and later found to be of low quality and abandoned; the bolts remain, the damage to the ground and cliff-top, and probably the reputation of climbers as a user group.
But, is this changeing in any postitive way? Have younger or beginning climbers gotten the message about care and respect for the rock and for history a little better over the years?
[ This Message was edited by: jds100 on 2001-08-10 18:37 ]
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jds100
Aug 10, 2001, 3:48 PM
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Harold: again, I apologize for mistakenly attributing a statement to you that someone else wrote.
By the way, www.climbingcentral.com seems to be up and running again.
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kagunkie
Aug 11, 2001, 5:21 AM
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Its personal when your included in the group being talked about. You said 99% bolt choppers that means anyone who has chopped a bolt doesnt it or maby you have to chop ten to qualify. Im not sure. Maby im that one out of a hundred and wasnt the intended victim of your "colorfull statement" I dont know. Anyway I dont want to argue either Id rather engage in a positive exchange. I did say "not two ounces of truth" that leaves one ounce for truth. I appologize again if I offended you.
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kagunkie
Aug 11, 2001, 5:38 AM
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AND NOW .....A STORY......
I returned to my home area recently to find my best route retro-bolted, how would you feel? I hammered the hangers over and intend to remove the bolts this fall, and I have every right to do it too.
First.... electric drills are forbidden in that area and these bolts were placed on rappell with an electric drill. The driller should be fined but I dont want that on MY concience. Ill say nothing to any authorities.
Second....that route was climbed over ten years ago and didnt need any bolts then. Why does it need them now?
They will be removed and the holes sealed, and if someone decides to replace them they will be removed again and the new holes sealed. That is a fact.
Maby this post will help explain why Im a jealous ego maniac.
[ This Message was edited by: kagunkie on 2001-08-10 22:49 ]
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kriso9tails
Aug 11, 2001, 1:30 PM
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"Necessary"= if that route will not (note:will, and not can) be climbed unless it is bolted. Many people think that if a route can be done on pro, then it shouldn't be bolted, which is a rule i accept in general, but some cracks will be bolted, and justifiedly so. Not all crags should be climbed, some have to be left unexposed, so we might as well get the most out of the available routes that we can. That means that some routes (and not a great number) that could be, but never will be, done on trad, should be boltedd in order to have any use.
In the case of Kagunkie, I'd hunt the bolter down and tell him where to stick his drill, but I think that that's an issue of vandalism, and not so much bolting.
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kagunkie
Aug 11, 2001, 2:46 PM
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Iv been in contact with him and we are in agreement. He made a mistake and the bolts will be removed. No hard feelings.
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