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biff
Apr 4, 2003, 4:23 AM
Post #26 of 58
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Allright .. the 5 vote thing has been proposed, but not with the addition of the time limitation on it.
This is a variation on the Photo.net style, and is also an option I have looked into. The one drawback to the 5vote system is that many photos don't get 5 votes, the addition of the 2 weeks thing might be good, but I bet that 3 days would be good enough since we get about 50 photos a day here. The other thing is that people could just vote thier new photo a 10, and then would wait 3 days and hope nobody votes on their photo, and see it appear in the top photo list, untill someone votes it down. So it might just delay the inevetable downvoting of photos, it wouldhave to be tested.
I think there are many possible improvements to the photo section of the site .. I will start a thread in the Suggestions & Questions .. I'll see you all there.
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rwaltermyer
Apr 4, 2003, 4:51 AM
Post #27 of 58
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Wow...i never knew I had built such a reputation in the photo world. For the record, I'm an avid photographer. Frankly, I call it like I see it. We all know that not everyone is going to love your pictures. I've had picts that I thought were 10s all the way...but apparently others didn't.
oh well.
personally cloudbreak I'd give that picture a two again if i had the chance... the rock exposure is great, but the actual shot is pathetic. Sorry. Once again, we all have our two cents. Heres the URL for anyone else curious: http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=Show&PhotoID=11607
Again. I don't want this reputation of skewing everything. Honestly, I do prefer ROCKCLIMBING shots on a Rockclimbing website, but if the submitter acknowledges the photo as "artistic", I take that into consideration and forget about its relevance to rockclimibing.
God bless
randy
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rwaltermyer
Apr 4, 2003, 5:01 AM
Post #28 of 58
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also...keeping a photo as a 9 or even an 8 is a phenomenal effort. so perhaps our expectation or what GREAT photos should be is too high. I'd say anything about 7.5 is incredible. Otherwise, do you guys think EVERYONE is gonna vote a particular picture a 9 or 10 to keep a photo in the 9-10 range?? Thats impractical.
randy
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bvb
Apr 4, 2003, 5:40 AM
Post #29 of 58
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Jesus people. Do you really think the number of POINTS a photo is voted on this website determines if that photo is good or not?? Have some faith in your own eye, you own judgement, your own opinion on what you do/don't like. It's a frikkin website that ANYONE can post to, not a beauty contest.
The photo is either quality or choss, in the eye of the beholder. Remember, Van Gogh sold only one painting in his lifetime...to his brother, who bought it 'cause Vincent was depressed over the fact that noone like his paintings...
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climbsomething
Apr 4, 2003, 6:20 AM
Post #30 of 58
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Randy,
If you don't like your "reputation" then quit building it up for yourself with your comments, eh?
If I were any of these people, I'd certainly think you were some snot-nosed puke with one of those really nice Kodak FunSavers... well, lah-dee-dah!
http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=Show&PhotoID=11996
http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=Show&PhotoID=12213
http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=Show&PhotoID=11607
If you insist on your commentary, though, at least give us something sexy to look at. Something better than what's in here:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?ArchiveID=ALL&Photographer=rwaltermyer
climbnow1, spike... guys like that are "qualified" to give criticism. But they don't. Hmm...
Hmmmm....
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vram1974
Apr 4, 2003, 7:08 AM
Post #31 of 58
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Well personally I really don't care about the ratings so much... I posted... what, 38 pictures here, and the only one which was really of any interest to people was the one of my grandfather...
http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=Show&PhotoID=11720
... so naturally I checked in on the rating now and then... so I noticed recently that the rating was 9.10 on 30 votes... that's easy math (a total of 273 votes). Well, it got one more recently and is now a 8.84... so that means it got voted a "1" (274/31=8.838)...
But whatever... maybe I'm just being silly. Clearly a bunch of us who had high rated photos are disappointed they got downgraded. Frankly I find the voting a curious animal.
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bvb
Apr 4, 2003, 1:54 PM
Post #32 of 58
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criminny...i feel like i'm beating my head against a brick wall here.
clearly, everyone is going to take their "point count" as a big deal. It's fun, for sure...but it's not life-or-death...i've sent my friends "me-mails" with headings like "NATIONAL EMERGENCY! BVB POINT COUNT FALLS BELOW TEN! EMERGENCY VOTES NEEDED NOW!! VOLUNTEER TODAY!!"
All it got was a hoot from my friends...no votes. Didn't expext any either...not from the band of hooligans i hang with. Besides, they don't have voting rights...except for my wife, who downsprays my pikky's.... :P
On the ther hand, quite a few of the folks i climb with are pros with multiple magazine covers to their credit, so it really is hard for me to see a website where anyone can post as anything more than a community bulletin board, and the "voting process" has all the deadly seriousness of voting for PROM QUEEN... :roll:
The photos are my favorite feature of this site, but i've had more fun wandering though the 800 or so "back photo's than i have looking at the same old top photos.
Again I say: if you wanna get real, submit for publication and $$. This board feature is for fun, and you're all taking it too seriously.
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rwaltermyer
Apr 4, 2003, 2:22 PM
Post #33 of 58
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I guess what I was attempting to do was get ppl thinking...is this really worth submitting? I'm surprised the editors leave as much as they do on...
I guess www.0friction.com's policy makes a little more sense to me...
But variety is good.
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bvb
Apr 4, 2003, 3:25 PM
Post #34 of 58
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no offense walter, but sometime you do come across as the self-appointed arbiter of taste...and your comment in this post just reinforces the impression. unless storage is a problem, site administrators should let people post whatever climbing-related photos that they please.
climbing is a purely personal pusuit, and it follows that the photos people take during their climbing explorations are going to take on a purley personal tone...who are you to judge what's worthy and what's not?
I mean, c'mon, as climbsomething pointed out, you've punched a couple of real stinkers through your modem, the photo her link leads to being a crowning example.
and for the record, i though your comment on my lodge parking lot shot was tremendously rude and thoughtless. i've been clutching to that photo for 26 years now, and for me it sums up everything that climbing has been for me -- which it to say it sums up my life. all you could see was some dirtbag smoking pot in a van...what you lack in imagination you more than make up for in judgemental self-righeousness.
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jut
Apr 4, 2003, 7:11 PM
Post #35 of 58
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Registered: Mar 31, 2003
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How about throwing some number of the highest and lowest votes out based on how many votes the photo has recieved in total.
So, for example, if a photo has 10 votes, you throw out the highest vote and the lowest vote. IF a photo has 20 votes, you throw out the highest 2 votes and the lowest 2 votes, and so on.
This solution solves the problem of people downgrading photos, but also will help solve the converse.
On a different note, someone said - who cares what it gets rated - I say I care because I really want to know what other climbers think about my photos. Which is why I don't want to post to photo.net. I don't care what professional photographers (in general) think, I care what my fellow climbers think.
Jut
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duracellbunny
Apr 4, 2003, 7:28 PM
Post #36 of 58
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Registered: May 22, 2002
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I'd like to see the name and the rating.
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sauron
Apr 4, 2003, 7:32 PM
Post #37 of 58
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Registered: Oct 15, 2001
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In reply to: Man, I know it's only for fun, but like they say "if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all." Likewise, if you don't like a pic, don't give it a zero... be realistic.... those pics didn't get a great rating by mistake.
The flip side to your statement, is that they didn't receive a bad rating by mistake either.
The caveat with your statement If you have nothing to say, don't say anything at all - is that, if you only vote on things you like, the overall ratings (And the average) will continuously grow - and you'll run into the fanboi situation, where people rate other people's pictures up, because they like the person (or other, external reasons), rather than technical merit/composition of the picture itself.
- d.
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biff
Apr 4, 2003, 7:33 PM
Post #38 of 58
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to JUT from a few posts above: I thought it would work well, but it doesn't.. In general it skews the high ranking photos down even more than the malitious votes.
I have a ranking system that is implemented and might be tested next week (by admins only) and as a group we will decide wether or not to try it as the default ranking calculator.
The algorighm isn't totally immune to malitious votes, but I think it works better than just trimming off the 10% low and high votes (based on observation ranther than mathematical proof).
well anyways .. I konw many people don't really care if their photos get bombed .. I just think that we should atleast try to develop a ranking system that reflects the feelings of the average rockclimber.
remember to give your inpute regarding photo gallery enhancements here:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...iewtopic.php?t=29113
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hardmanknott
Apr 4, 2003, 7:58 PM
Post #39 of 58
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Nobody has answered my question yet.
When summiting a photo, what number do you give it,
assuming such self-voting is normal practice?
8? 9? 10?
Hardman Knott
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jut
Apr 4, 2003, 8:11 PM
Post #40 of 58
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[quote="biff"]to JUT from a few posts above: I thought it would work well, but it doesn't.. In general it skews the high ranking photos down even more than the malitious votes.
Biff: I hear what you are saying - but, it still would keep everyone on the same "level". I mean, if it skews one photo, it will skew them all and it would still eliminate most of the obvious degrade/upgrade votes. So maybe all photos have slightly less overall points, but they would be more even overall. See my point?
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jut
Apr 4, 2003, 8:39 PM
Post #41 of 58
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Last rant. If you don't think there is a problem, look at this:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...n=Show&PhotoID=12596 with a rating of 6.67 and 3 votes (I did not vote for my own photo - maybe I should have...) compated to this: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...n=Show&PhotoID=12432 with a rating of 8.20 and 5 votes. Come on! There just isn't a comparison. Tell me there is....
Feel free to look at some of my other photos - they are the same way.
PS: If you haven't rated them yet - please do! I want to know what people think.
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rwaltermyer
Apr 4, 2003, 9:06 PM
Post #42 of 58
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Registered: Aug 10, 2001
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well i like em both...but comparing the two...I think the butt shot-perspective on yours might lead to a lower rating...
personally...they're both good.
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jut
Apr 4, 2003, 9:11 PM
Post #43 of 58
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Registered: Mar 31, 2003
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All butt shots aren't bad! Just because it's a butt shot doesn't mean you HAVE to degrade the photo. For real!
Now - thanks for looking - please rate it (and my others - I want to know what you think in numbers)!
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jvb
Apr 5, 2003, 5:45 AM
Post #44 of 58
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Registered: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 17
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oh for god's sake you guys -- hell, they're ALL perfect tens! all 864 of 'em! so, who's gonna organize the awards ceremony??
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vram1974
Apr 5, 2003, 6:10 AM
Post #45 of 58
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Registered: Jan 27, 2003
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Actually I think Juts shots are some of the best on the site...
To come to the point tho...
I respect difference of opinion. However! Someone giving a "1" to a picture rated 9.40 is not giving their opinion... they're being a prick because they likely resent that it's got a high rating.
bvb, you can tell people numbers mean nothing all you want, but you know it's a crock. If numbers meant nothing, there wouldn't be a voting system. It's the same thing with the YDS. There are two kinds of people in the world. Those who can look at a picture and not care what the rating of the climb is, and those who want to know the YDS rating.
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pbjosh
Apr 5, 2003, 6:26 AM
Post #46 of 58
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Registered: Mar 22, 2002
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I say voting is fine. This is f*cking climbing people. If you can't suck it up when your photo get's voted down, even vengefully, on an amateur site, then maybe you are a raging example of inadequacy or maybe you just need to lighten up.
Don't change a thing. In the end the pics on the front page tend to be good ones almost all the time. Some good ones get lost. Some people don't like what their photos are rated. Some people want all good photos to be rated appropriately. You can't please anyone all the time and you can never please everyone. I think the photo voting is working SPECTACULARLY well at the moment.
You want to really talk to me about ratings systems and gaming? I built one of the largest media web sites on the net and, along with others, spent 5 years trying to stop people from gaming ratings and rankings of their media contributions. It's futile. Complexity doesn't win. What wins is making the ratings not matter for sh!t, keeping things mellow, and not worrying about it.
Like I said, everytime I look at the front page, there's a purty picture on it. To me, that's a fantastic success.
josh
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bvb
Apr 5, 2003, 3:49 PM
Post #47 of 58
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VRAM1974, I've been climbing steadily and full-timefor 30 years. And after 30 years, the things which bring meaning to your climbing evolve. Although in your mind, my beliefs may be incomprehensible -- or, "a crock" as you so eloquently put it -- to me they are the natural points of view that come from having heard a thouusand various iterations of this thread over the last 3 deacdes. And in truth, this thread really revolves around insecurity, and a thirst for attention and peer recognition, not photography.
So, to you, the votes and the points really do mean something. That's cool -- I'm not going to second guess your feelings on the matter and declare them "a crock". If I write somthing on this bb, you can generally assume i'm being striaght up, unless i'm obviously going for humor.
So show a little tenderness here, grommet. Don't be declaring my pontifications a crock. BTW, I'm one of the people who can look at a photo of a climb and not immediately want to know what it's rated. What I'll notice first is the setting of the boulder, the color and texture of the rock, the beauty and striking quality of the lines, and so on. The rating is the very LAST question that will pop into my head or pass my lips. You, my friend, are most definately a newskool climber and an amatuer photographer who wants to get better and get recognition. Reminds me of me and all my friends when were were 19 or 20 or 21.....
:x :twisted: :x
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buoux
Apr 5, 2003, 5:27 PM
Post #48 of 58
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Registered: Feb 13, 2003
Posts: 21
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Maybe you could make it so that when someone votes on a photo their name and vote will appear under the picture along with a mandatory comment or an opinion (which, right now is optional) of why or how they voted. Making people publicly accountable for their votes might ward off the bogus intentions of some.
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dsafanda
Apr 5, 2003, 6:00 PM
Post #49 of 58
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Registered: Mar 6, 2002
Posts: 1025
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I'm in full agreement with pbjosh. Leave it as is and just deal!
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rwaltermyer
Apr 5, 2003, 6:32 PM
Post #50 of 58
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you know...maybe we should READ the comments that ppl give to our photos they're a MUCH better indicator of how good a photo is.
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