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dirtineye
Apr 15, 2003, 6:14 PM
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The rescue you mention is not that hard. Take a self and leader rescue class, AMGA giudes and schools offer them all the time, it takes two days to do both and is well worth it.
I don't know the stats, but I'm willing to bet that a rappell backup would save more lives than it would end. I just have this feeling that most people who
get into rappell trouble are not unconcious, but could have used a back up.
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rgold
Apr 16, 2003, 8:51 PM
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In reply to: The rescue you mention is not that hard. Take a self and leader rescue class, AMGA giudes and schools offer them all the time, it takes two days to do both and is well worth it.
I beg to differ. The rescue of an unconscious person hanging in mid-rappel is, as far as I know, quite difficult. Raising them will not be possible in many circumstances and will be extremely difficult in all cases. Perhaps the best method would be to prussik up (if coming from below) or down (if coming from above---tension in the rope will make rapelling impossible) and attach the unconscious person to the rope with prussiks and mariner hitches. The problem of disengaging their rappel device or of getting their weight off a prussik backup placed above the rappel device is tricky. If their backup was below the rappel device, then it can be released and they can be lowered unto the prussik attachments. If their backup is above the rappel device, it will probably be necessary to cut the sling, because there will be no practical way to raise them and unweight the knot. This will cause a short fall, with two people now hanging on the rappel rope. After their weight has been transfered to the prussiks and mariner hitched slings, the unconscious person can be eased onto your rappel device by releasing the mariner hitches. The prussiks can be removed, an assisted rappel performed. I consider this to be a long, difficult, and dangerous process. A mistake or oversight will kill the rescuer. It may have to be done after dark and/or in adverse weather, since this is often when people are rapelling. And even if the unconscious rappeller is known to be dead, the rest of the party is trapped until the unconscious rappeller can be freed from the rope. Please describe a method that can be carried out by a single person, either above or below the rappeller, that is "not that hard." I don't think the unconscious rappeller scenario is even covered in the courses you mention, and, for example, it is not considered in David Fasulo's Book, Self-Rescue, which seems to be one of the standard references in the field.
In reply to: I don't know the stats, but I'm willing to bet that a rappell backup would save more lives than it would end. I just have this feeling that most people who get into rappell trouble are not unconcious, but could have used a back up.
Well, this is where those personal decisions come in. If you think that, while conscious, you might lose control of the rappel, then of course a back-up is called for, but most of the people who have commented mention losing consciousness as a motivation. If you think that the only way you could lose control is by being rendered unconscious, then think about the issues I've raised.
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dirtineye
Apr 16, 2003, 9:53 PM
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After you have taken a course such as the one I suggested, maybe you will not beg to differ.
From the scenarios you propose and the way you suggest dealing with them, you really should spend the cash and take the course.
Your last paragraph is so confused, I can't make head nor tail of it. I think you've been hanging immobile in your harness for too long.
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quickclips
Apr 16, 2003, 9:58 PM
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I clip it to my leg loop.
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drector
Apr 16, 2003, 10:32 PM
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Someone mentioned that cavers rap alot and don't put the knot above the device because your hand will naturally grab tighter during a gear failure.
All of the stuff I can find on the web points that out as the main reason that most cavers don't backup a rap at all. In fact, it appears that the backup knot does nothing of the sort during most kinds of emergencies. I read about test where people would rap off the end of a rope (properly protected) and they all, ALL, would grab tighter on the backup knot resulting in a fall off the end of the rope. So for gear failure and rope failure (in length), the backup will not help those who participated in the tests. The backup might help if you get knocked out during the rappel regardless of where the knot is and releasing the knot is not an issue since you will need a real rescue.
Of course if you want to hang-dog while rapping or just stop to drill bolt holes where they don't belong (that's just a joke), place it below the device to make it easier to release when it is holding you and so that it only hold the break end weight, not your entire weight.
And one more time for those who never think about it... If you back up a rappel then how come you don't back up a belay? Are you that much more likely to be knocked out when rapping or when belaying?
Dave
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dirtineye
Apr 17, 2003, 3:55 AM
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Do you mean that you do not tie off the end of the belay line?
I use a rappell backup because if my hands had to leave the rope for any reason, I would not then be falling. I don't think there is another reason LOL.
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rgold
Apr 17, 2003, 4:30 AM
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In reply to: After you have taken a course such as the one I suggested, maybe you will not beg to differ. From the scenarios you propose and the way you suggest dealing with them, you really should spend the cash and take the course.
You have not offered a single reasoned criticism of the content of those scenarios and are unable to explain how such a rescue can be performed in a way that is "not hard." That leaves all of us with my conclusions.
So let me reiterate. The first person down might choose to use a back-up knot, but it is far from certain that this is a good idea in all circumstances. Once someone is down, the "fireman's belay" from below is preferable to a backup knot.
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dirtineye
Apr 17, 2003, 1:59 PM
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In reply to: You have not offered a single reasoned criticism of the content of those scenarios and are unable to explain how such a rescue can be performed in a way that is "not hard." That leaves all of us with my conclusions. .
Well see, I don't have to spend my time telling you what you need to know, it is your job to take care of that. Your solutions to some bits of your scenarios are just plain wrong while others are about right.
Assuming your conclusions are right because someone refuses to correct your errors is ludicrous.
One more time, PAY someone who is trained to esplain it to you.
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rgold
Apr 17, 2003, 4:23 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: You have not offered a single reasoned criticism of the content of those scenarios and are unable to explain how such a rescue can be performed in a way that is "not hard." That leaves all of us with my conclusions. Well see, I don't have to spend my time telling you what you need to know, it is your job to take care of that. Your solutions to some bits of your scenarios are just plain wrong while others are about right.
Well, you are spending your time telling me what I need to know, you just refuse to justify it. We seem to have different ideas of what a discussion forum is about. I am laboring under the impression that an exchange of ideas leading to better practices is the goal. You seem to think that proclaiming your expertise without offering a shred of evidence for anything you say is the purpose of posting.
In reply to: Assuming your conclusions are right because someone refuses to correct your errors is ludicrous.
I actually didn't say my conclusion are right. I said your inability to point out problems or describe solutions leave us with no alternative. I'm honestly not interested in a fight. If you really know how to do this in a significantly better way, why wouldn't you post it for everyone, not just for me? Isn't this why we engage in these discussions, to help other people with the knowlege we've gained?
Look, you expect us to believe what you say because you may or may not have taken a course that may or may not have covered this subject, and if it did, you may or may not have understood the principles taught. If you can't make a reasoned argument and provide appropriate alternatives, then you give us no reason to believe any of your claims, and that leaves us with mine: rescuing an unconscious climber hanging in mid-rappel is a major undertaking. Think about this when you use a rappel back-up knot.
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dirtineye
Apr 17, 2003, 5:24 PM
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Nah, believe what you want. you have the book with all the knots and techniques you need to figure the right method out for yourself but you refuse to do it.
Why you don't want to get the training from someone qualified is beyond me, and none of my business, but it is well worrth your time and money, and woudl answer all your questions.
You remind me of students who only want the answer, and refuse to think or use the techniques to get their own answer.
I'll say my last word on the subject, one more time, take the course, then you'll get it. YOu will also learn that Rescue work is a bunch of simple steps done deliberatly with planning. Now, that is all I have to say about it. The rest is up to you.
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piton
Apr 17, 2003, 5:50 PM
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hey rgold how many FA's you have under your belt? I still have to get on Coex (when did you make the FA of coex?).
dirtineye why don't post these steps instead of spraying them around :roll:
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ambler
Apr 17, 2003, 6:33 PM
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In reply to: The rescue you mention is not that hard.
dirtineye, you're coming across way too arrogant in your posts. Have you earned that? Is it really "not that hard" for one person to rescue an unconscious partner on rappel? Spend a few words telling us how, not just repeating over and over that you paid to know how. Back up "not that hard" with a story or two from your own real experience. That might help save a life and show how right you are, both.
Have you led Needle's Eye? Do you know why I ask?
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dirtineye
Apr 17, 2003, 10:22 PM
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Bite me. He has the book right in front of him, with every technique needed right there in it. There are lots of ways to do it depending on the specific situation.
If yo udon't have sense enough to get the training to do these things from qualified people, that's not my problem. You don't learn rescue on a message board.
Take the class, or get it from someone qualified any way you can. Get it first hand, wiht hands on experience, like any responsible climber should.
I said last word, and this time I mean it.
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rgold
Apr 18, 2003, 4:36 PM
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Now that the silliness is over, a summary is in order.
The use of a rappel back-up knot, whether above or below the belay device, is often discussed as a precaution with no downside. Whatever decision each of us makes, it ought to be an informed one, and one of the things that should be considered is what could happen if the rappeller is unconscious and hanging, in which case death from harness hang syndrome is a possibility in 10--20 minutes.
(From a rescue standpoint, the worst case scenario is the rappeller hanging in mid-air, 30 meters down a 60 meter rappel, suspended by a prussik knot placed above the rappel device, and the only other member of the party above at the rap station. It will not be possible for the conscious party member to rappel the weighted rope, and when the unconscious climber is reached, the weighted prussik knot holding them will not be releasable unless the hanging climber can be lifted slightly. The rescuer has perhaps ten minutes to get his or her unconscious partner onto a ledge and off their harness.)
Unfortunately, the likelihood of having to confront this type of situation increases as the objective dangers to the rappeller increase, which is also when a backup is most called-for. In a remote area where no rescue is possible, the party has to consider, somewhat goulishly, the fact that having one person stuck mid-rappel could end up killing two people rather than one if the rescuer is unsuccessful, makes a fatal mistake, or causes the failure of the rappel anchor while attempting the rescue.
There is no question that these horrible scenarios are very unlikely, but a decision about using rappel back-ups is hardly an informed one if it does not consciously consider these risks and judge them acceptable in the circumstances faced by the party. In this regard, I cannot help reiterating that, for all party members after the first one down, the "fireman's belay" provides the security of a backup while totally eliminating the stranded rappeller potential.
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sspssp
Apr 18, 2003, 5:05 PM
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Descending a weighted rope is tricky and slow. Essentially, the climber would have to down jug it with an autoblock or some other type of knot.
However, I would like to point out another option once the injured climber is reached. The injured climbing has the rope running through a belay device. If I reached an injured climbing like this, I would clip myself into the victim's locking biner. Next, I would add some sort of additional friction into the system (since I would be lowering two people). Clipping the rope through my own belay device (attached to my leg loop) below the injured climber's belay device would work(this rope is slack, so that is not a problem). After tying the rope off with a releasable backup knot (i.e. mule knot), I would simply cut the injured climber's prussik. No reason to screw around trying to lift them up and release it. I could then rap both of us off the victims belay device.
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hugepedro
Apr 18, 2003, 5:47 PM
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In reply to: (From a rescue standpoint, the worst case scenario is the rappeller hanging in mid-air, 30 meters down a 60 meter rappel, suspended by a prussik knot placed above the rappel device, and the only other member of the party above at the rap station. It will not be possible for the conscious party member to rappel the weighted rope, and when the unconscious climber is reached, the weighted prussik knot holding them will not be releasable unless the hanging climber can be lifted slightly. The rescuer has perhaps ten minutes to get his or her unconscious partner onto a ledge and off their harness.)
Descending a weighted rope with prussiks is not too hard. When you get to the unconscious climber, improvise a chest harness with a double runner. Clip that to another prussik to take some pressure off the seat harness.
I tend to agree with Dirtineye that it's not THAT difficult. Now, I've never had to do it in a real emergency, but I've practiced self rescue and crevasse extraction many times. Once you have the steps and techniques down you can perform them pretty quickly.
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danl
Apr 18, 2003, 5:58 PM
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[quote="hugepedro"] I've never had to do it in a real emergency, but I've practiced self rescue and crevasse extraction many times. In reply to: ...uhhhh I'm not a real doctor but i play one on tv....
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rgold
Apr 18, 2003, 7:21 PM
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In reply to: Descending a weighted rope with prussiks is not too hard.
OK, but there will be some kind of lip problem. The weighted rope will be held tightly against a section of rock, which could be mercifully a few inches or just as easily several feet. How do you plan to down-prussik past a several foot section where you can't pry the rope away from the wall? You've got ten minutes...
In reply to: When you get to the unconscious climber, improvise a chest harness with a double runner. Clip that to another prussik to take some pressure off the seat harness.
The chest harness will keep the climber upright but will take very little pressure off the seat harness unless you can actually raise the climber. Thus, the hanging climber is no better off from the point of view of harness hang syndrome, and oh dear, I forgot to mention that sometimes with harness hang syndrome, releasing harness pressure and the subsequent rapid return of circulation from the lower extremities causes heart attacks and/or stroke. Meanwhile, how much of your ten minutes is gone? You still haven't gotten the hanging climber detached from the weighted prussik that is holding him, and both of you are still dangling 30 meters above the next ledge.
In reply to: I tend to agree with Dirtineye that it's not THAT difficult.
In the context of my remarks, the question is whether the entire process can be done in ten minutes. So far, from the comfort of your keyboard, with no pressure from the accident, no incipient hypothermia from the raging storm that forced the rappel in the first place, no fatique from a 14 hour day, etc. etc., you've failed to anticipate a critical problem that will slow you down at the very least and perhaps stop you completely, misjudged the effectiveness of your first step, and not yet addressed how to get the climber down. What else might go wrong in a real situation that neither of us has thought of?
Remember that I raised the issue of the stranded rappeller as something those who use autoblocks should factor into their decision-making. Dirtineye's response was that rescue would be so easy there is no need to think about being unconscious and stranded as a potentially negative outcome. I'm not saying rescue isn't possible, but I am saying that within the 10--20 minute potential "death window," rescue is unlikely.
The risk of the stranded rappeller should not be discounted by assuming that a rescue can be achieved in time. I invite anyone who disagrees to perform the dangle test and let one of the experts, self-proclaimed or otherwise, rescue them before they die.
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hugepedro
Apr 18, 2003, 11:32 PM
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You're right. It's hopeless. Just give up. Screw your buddy and just call 911 for your own rescue.
I'm quite certain you can come up with any number of dire situations where there isn't much hope of saving your buddy. I can also come up with situations (much more common, I think) where objective dangers are so hazardous that not rappeling with a backup invites some serious risk. So what's your point? I use a rappel backup when my judgement tells me that the situation calls for it.
There are a number of ways to surmount the rope jammed against the rock issue. One, you can use your cordalette to get past the section, re-attaching your prussiks below. You could also haul up 1 strand of the rope from the start. Now you have 1 strand with slack in it that you can rappel on. Anyone who has rigged a hauling system on a glacier can do it on rock. I've done it in a matter of a few minutes, and that includes constructing a snow anchor and getting out of self-arrest. I'm quite certain that on rock, while hanging out at a rappel station, I could have a 2:1 or 3:1 system rigged in under a minute.
When you get to your buddy and assess the situation, you can also put a prussik on his legs so that he's suspended from 3 points, legs, harness, and chest - prone - that takes considerable pressure off the seat harness. Now you've bought yourself time to deal with the situation.
Dirtineye's point was that if you know what you're doing the problems of an unconscious climber hanging on the rope are not insurmountable, and I tend to agree with that. So when I find myself in a situation that presents significant objective hazards, for me, the risk of a dangling rappeler usually doesn't outweigh the risks of the objective hazards enough to make me decide not to use a back up.
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arlen
Apr 19, 2003, 7:41 AM
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In reply to: OK, but there will be some kind of lip problem. The weighted rope will be held tightly against a section of rock, which could be mercifully a few inches or just as easily several feet. How do you plan to down-prussik past a several foot section where you can't pry the rope away from the wall? You've got ten minutes...
If there are lip problems on a rap, doing a fireman's belay will be pretty dangerous, because you need to see the rappeller's progress.
Are we talking about descending a weighted rop to the first rappeller who is suffering HHS due to a rap backup? If the first doesn't use a backup and has the sort of trouble that would knock him/her unconscious for 10 minutes, the rope will likely be unweighted, because the rappeller will be on the ground.
In reply to: Thus, the hanging climber is no better off from the point of view of harness hang syndrome, and oh dear, I forgot to mention that sometimes with harness hang syndrome, releasing harness pressure and the subsequent rapid return of circulation from the lower extremities causes heart attacks and/or stroke. Meanwhile, how much of your ten minutes is gone?
Having read the most convincing material I can find about HHS, I gotta say it's a bit unscientific to warrant such surety. There are plenty of reasons to reach an unconscious climber quickly, HHS among them.
In reply to: The risk of the stranded rappeller should not be discounted by assuming that a rescue can be achieved in time. I invite anyone who disagrees to perform the dangle test and let one of the experts, self-proclaimed or otherwise, rescue them before they die.
Did somebody say they don't normally try to reach a stranded climber in the shortest time possible?
I don't doubt that HHS is something to worry about among other factors, or that a fireman's belay is best when the rappeller is visible and the belayer is safer from rockfall than the rappeller. But I don't encounter that situation much in the Cascades.
Nonetheless I agree with your argument that a FB would be better than a backed up rap in ideal circumstances, but not because a backup itself would cause any dangers that are worse than its absence. In other words, rappelling without a backup is more dangerous than rappelling with one.
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alpnclmbr1
Jul 4, 2003, 7:34 AM
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Has anybody practiced the type of rescue described here for an unconscious rappeller stuck in the middle of a rap. Dirtineye? Why didn’t they have you practice this in your course? Anybody?
What would the scenario be if the second person was stuck, and you had to come from below, no one even touched that. Why. This is a significant problem with your so called safety practice. A very experienced climber challenged your assumptions and all you could come up with was to tell him to take a course.
Cavers rappel far more often then climbers and they often do not use a backup because they have found through experience that it is not a worthwhile tradeoff. Yet beginner climbers think they know what is best.
I have been climbing for close to twenty years with some of the best climbers in the world. I have never climbed with anyone who used a friction rappel backup, mainly because I don’t climb with beginners, and when I do, I don’t let them rap without a fireman’s backup.
I wonder how many of you supposedly safety conscious people rappel unnecessarily. (if using a backup encourages you to rappel when you have another option,then that would be another downside to using it)
Here’s a little incentive for you, I will bet anyone $100 (or more for that matter) that they can’t perform this rescue in 20 minutes or less. (that is being generous on time, the scenario would be in the middle of a 60 meter rap)
Dirt your back on my list of a-holes, you don’t berate someone that has been climbing for longer then you have been alive. Friggin jerk.
Arlen: I notice how you skipped the part where rgold said if there was concern about the rap you could lower the first climber down.
And about needing to be able to see the rappeller to use a firemans, how so?
And don't get me wrong, I am not against using a backup.
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pico23
Jul 5, 2003, 6:33 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: You have not offered a single reasoned criticism of the content of those scenarios and are unable to explain how such a rescue can be performed in a way that is "not hard." That leaves all of us with my conclusions. . Well see, I don't have to spend my time telling you what you need to know, it is your job to take care of that. One more time, PAY someone who is trained to esplain it to you.
Dingbat (I mean dirtineye), while I haven't looked at this thread since I posted it, the resurgence spurred my curriosity. you do realize that Rgold is a semi experienced climber :wink: , right? Just wondering, cause I think you assume everyone on this board is an incompetent gymbie just because they weren't in your two self rescue classes.
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dirtineye
Jul 5, 2003, 2:52 PM
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You guys crack me up.
First, you are a bit late on this one.
I wish I had a dollar for every time I corrected some safety error made by a climber with over 20 years experience, cause I'd be rich then.
I've got one friend, climbing since the 70's, climbs with a pile of guide book authors and route setters, who has lived mostly by the grace of god cause he has done many thing wrong for, well, 30 years and somehow lived. He is trying to break the habit in lieu of any more bones LOL.
Yeah I know who Rgold is. At least HE doesn't trade on his rep like you guys are trying to.
I will reiterate my belief that harness hang kills fewer climbers than losing control of a rappell does. In fact, at least one person has died when they lost control of a rappell since this post started, but I have seen no mention of an actual death caused by harness hang, have you?
I'll still maintain that a message board is not where you learn rescue technique. A debate about rappell rescue did emerge however, and I think it speaks for iteself.
As for me caring if I am on your hatelist (hey are you guys related to Nixon by any chance?) or not, get over yourselves!
I did come up with one idea to placate rgold about harness hang and an unconcious climber with a backup, I posted it somewhere else but here it is again:
You can often adjust an auto block so that instead of locking up to a dead stop, it will let a climber gently move down. It takes a little doing and each climber would have to experiment with their specific rope and weight and possibly find the right sling for them and the number of wraps to use, but this would alleviate the situation that bothered rgold so much. This "gentle block" will jam up tight if a concious climber pays attention to it and lifts up on the tail end from time to time, but if left alone, as when the climber is unconcious, then this "gentle block" allows a very slow descent. Of course, without knots in the end of the ropes, there could still be trouble.
Alpineclimber, as for berating great climbers, you berated two when you dissed their advice I posted on footwork, or have you forgotten that? I kept their names out of the post on purpose, but you'd probably recognise one of em.
Your rappell rescue bet conditions are mighty vague, they do not address getting to the climber in time to deal with harness hang, which was the start of this whole debate, and 100 bucks is not nearly enough. By the way, the book "On Rope", one of my favorites, has a section on how to deal with harness hang victims once you have them back on the ground. You'd better include that in your rescue scenario too.
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alpnclmbr1
Jul 5, 2003, 4:32 PM
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In reply to: After you have taken a course such as the one I suggested, maybe you will not beg to differ. From the scenarios you propose and the way you suggest dealing with them, you really should spend the cash and take the course. Your last paragraph is so confused, I can't make head nor tail of it. I think you've been hanging immobile in your harness for too long.
There is a difference between disagreeing and berating.
Apparently you have never practiced this rescue.
In reply to: I will reiterate my belief that harness hang kills fewer climbers than losing control of a rappell does. In fact, at least one person has died when they lost control of a rappell since this post started, but I have seen no mention of an actual death caused by harness hang, have you?
You don't address the fact that lowering the first climber and using a firemans for the second is a safer alternative.
In reply to: Yeah I know who Rgold is. At least HE doesn't trade on his rep like you guys are trying to.
Sharing the fact that I have never climbed with someone that uses that system is not trading on my rep.
In reply to: I'll still maintain that a message board is not where you learn rescue technique. A debate about rappell rescue did emerge however, and I think it speaks for iteself.
In reply to: I've got one friend, climbing since the 70's, climbs with a pile of guide book authors and route setters, who has lived mostly by the grace of god cause he has done many thing wrong for, well, 30 years and somehow lived. He is trying to break the habit in lieu of any more bones LOL.
In reply to: You can often adjust an auto block so that instead of locking up to a dead stop, it will let a climber gently move down.
In reply to: Your rappell rescue bet conditions are mighty vague, they do not address getting to the climber in time to deal with harness hang, which was the start of this whole debate, and 100 bucks is not nearly enough. By the way, the book "On Rope", one of my favorites, has a section on how to deal with harness hang victims once you have them back on the ground. You'd better include that in your rescue scenario too.
I was being generous since I know for a fact that you could not effect this rescue in ten minutes. I left the money figure up to whatever would encourage you to back up your words.
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pico23
Jul 5, 2003, 5:44 PM
Post #50 of 79
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Registered: Mar 14, 2003
Posts: 2378
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[quote="alpnclmbr1"]In reply to: In reply to: I've got one friend, climbing since the 70's, climbs with a pile of guide book authors and route setters, who has lived mostly by the grace of god cause he has done many thing wrong for, well, 30 years and somehow lived. He is trying to break the habit in lieu of any more bones LOL. This is the only thing you said that I agree with. In reply to: You can often adjust an auto block so that instead of locking up to a dead stop, it will let a climber gently move down. Has anyone here done this? Theoretically possible is not the same a being practical.
Possible? yes, feasable? No. You'd have to retest the friction for every rope since rope you use and in multiple situations (slabs, freehangs, ledgy rock faces). You'd also have to test not only different raps of the knot, but different diameters to get the right amount of friction (assuming cord is being used). The friction is gonna as differ as the rope ages and gets fuzzy so what worked in march might not work in June. There are probably other factors as well. Basically if you miscalculate the rappeller is dead anyway as the friction knot burns through, or you still have the complex rescue that would need to happen if you just used a standard locking friction knot. I see no advantage to your complex method and I see too many variables to make it a possibilty. Perhaps I am misreading/understanding the idea you stated or maybe you are using a mechanical device as an autoblock?
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