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copperhead
Apr 13, 2003, 10:25 PM
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These quotes appeared in this thread:
(I even wasted the time to make sure that the bold type was preserved…)
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4561&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
(The trumpets sound as the Great One enters the room and seats himself upon his Great Throne…)
In reply to: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, do you think that I'm ranting now??? Please be assured, I have not yet even BEGUN TO RANT. Within the next 24 hours you people are going to see the RANT OF THE MILLENNIUM. This will be the RANT TO END ALL RANTS. This is where I - Peter Zabrok - will show you that I am one of the world's best wall climbers. I will show you that I am one of the world's best wall doctors.
In reply to: Sometimes words like bitchin' are woefully insufficient to describe the bitchin'ness of a person, and nowhere is this more true than with Dr. Piton, Wall Doctor to the Masters. To merely say that Dr. Piton is bitchin' is simply not enough. You may in fact require substantially different words to describe just how bitchin' I really am. I may choose to share these words with you at a later time. We shall see.
In reply to: It was ignored by a jealous fool named Adam Bingel of Long Beach California, your webmaster, my principal detractor. And if you think FIEND went down in flames, wait til you see what is about to happen to adam. I am going to CRUCIFY him in print. He has underestimated the mighty Dr. Piton for the very last time!
Are you a comic book hero?
Adam is now on sabbatical.
When asked (in another thread) what was on your list for the summer, you replied:
In reply to: Warmup on The Shield, followed by Bermuda Dunes. Looks like I'll have enough time to solo Gulf Stream, which is something I really want to do.
Hmmm, Bermuda Dunes… That’s an interesting one… Schneider and Barbella in ’84. It’s mostly a free route; have you been doing laps in the gym and practicing your OW technique? Or will this be another ascent with Tom and his Walleye Giants? If you aid all of the free sections, will you still list the route on this site as VI 5.11c, A4+? Do you think it’s still A4+? When’s the last time that route was climbed? I bet the bolts aren’t looking too good by now. With the tremendous loads that you haul up the wall, what is your plan with respect to dealing with poor bolted anchors? I know you’ll have a bolt kit with you… You’re not thinking of adding NEW bolts to the belays, are you? How about replacing the bad bolts properly with fatty SS new ones? I’m sure the folks at the ASCA could set you up with the necessary gear. How about replacing bad rivets with ¼” buttonheads? Whaddaya think? You’re gonna be up there for a long time anyways so might as well fix up the route while you’re at it, eh? Like, eh? You know… being one of the best wall climbers in the world, you ought to be able to replace bolts, right?
Gulf Stream looks like a good one. Two of my bros (both excellent climbers) got a few pitches up the thing and then decided they’d rather climb something else. Given that the route is not very old (new-ish bolts) and the fact that you will be soloing, will you need to bring a bolt kit? Cheater stick?
So, my challenge to you is this (provided you intend to ‘stick’ to your publicly stated plans):
1. Do not add bolts to Bermuda Dunes.
2. Replace (properly) any/all bad rivets on Bermuda Dunes.
3. Replace (properly) any/all bad bolts at belays on Bermuda Dunes.
4. Do not bring a drill on Gulf Stream.
5. Do not bring a ‘cheater stick’ on Gulf Stream.
A world-renowned wall climber of your stature should have no problem meeting such a challenge, right?
The world’s best wall climbers don’t drill on established routes nor do they use a cheater stick, right?
Whaddaya think?
It’s snowing outside…
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tenn_dawg
Apr 13, 2003, 10:41 PM
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Bryan,
Hmmm, I just can't figure out why a seemingly reasonable person would go out of his way to start an unprovoked fight.
I don't think you've got anything go gain.
What could be the motivation?
Hmmmm, could it possibly be a sour taste of... jealousy?
Travis
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copperhead
Apr 13, 2003, 10:47 PM
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Tenn_Dawg wrote:
Nope.
PTPP also wrote:
In reply to: I am going to prove to everyone, once and for all, that I'm the best. I'm one of the best wall climbers, one of the best wall doctors, and I have all the proof I need for the Doubting Adams, the real losers of this website. For it is by their jealousy that they are losing.
Tenn_Dawg wrote:
In reply to: What could be the motivation?
Simple amusement and the others that I talk to.
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cantwinifyoudontplay2003
Apr 13, 2003, 11:16 PM
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Sometimes I can't get what side of the fence your on.... Got me thinking too ..... Damn I can't cheat again... F--_ I am going to have to leave my cheat stick at home this year....... Copperhead your going to change my climb.. Darn...I love my cheater stick too ! Why did I have to all of the sudden get a conscious ? I take the challenge..............
climb on
oh ya and paise to pete either way... Wall climbers should stick together.....If you need a challenge try and get a RETARD up El Cap.
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onelung
Apr 13, 2003, 11:55 PM
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I am sure most people here would be happy to let what was said in Novenber 2001 be left in 2001. Damn You should have seen me then! Why then dig up this personal bickering,
My only suggestion would be to delete this thread and replace it with one of good rock climbing interaction.
Happy Sunday, In one month I'll be in the valley!
Bill
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wallrat
Apr 14, 2003, 12:00 AM
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Hey bro, this is too much, If you have dirty laundry with PTPP, send him a PM. Keep it off the website. We're not interested in your trying to start a fight.
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drkodos
Apr 14, 2003, 12:04 AM
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Actually....
I think this is the perfect forum for a verbal sparring match. Isn't that THE point of the site.....to express diverse and differeing views?
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xanx
Apr 14, 2003, 12:07 AM
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well, i am a bit of a n00b to this site and missed the apparently epic 2001 PTPP battle, and i don't know the first thing about aid, but i will say this: i am constantly impressed with PTPP's work. no one else has such quality posts as he does. first off, he is quite a good writer, so his work generally has good vocab/syntax/good literary qualities. also, his use of bold and colo[cyan]r[/cyan][brown]e[/brown]d text makes his posts easy to skim thru. then there is the sheer volume of his work; often, his posts will take 10, 15, or more minutes to read. did i mention the helpful links he puts to all pertinant information? i never plan on getting into big wall stuff, but i will still spend an hour or more just skimming through the web of his posts, reading entertaining anecdotes, such as his two near-death caving adventrues, the incident with Tom's pig, ect... i have to take it as a matter of faith that the man knows what he is doing; check out his "reference", editor of Chongo's book, plus God-knows-how-many posts on big wall techniques and the "better way". can he free climb really hard? i dunno. there is that one pic of him bouldering in Hawaii (a really sweet picture btw) and the comment by those youngins who couldn't get up there... plus the guy has his own beer co! how cool is that!
like him or not, u gotta respect hte guy.
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matt
Apr 14, 2003, 12:17 AM
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In reply to: Actually.... I think this is the perfect forum for a verbal sparring match. Isn't that THE point of the site.....to express diverse and differeing views?
No, the site is here as a place for climbers worldwide to get together and share beta, pictures, stories, find a parter, etc. It is not here merely for people to start fights over varying viewpoints. Clearly, a site this large is going to have a variety of viewpoints and perspectives coming from different socioeconomic and geopolitical backgrounds (this we encourage); however starting fights over these different viewpoints will not be tolerated.
That said, I'm locking this thread. We encourage open discussions and a free flow of ideas, but emotional or angry outbursts will not be tolerated. If there are any further questions as to our Terms of Service or why this thread is now locked, feel free to send me a PM.
Cheers,
Matt
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calamity_chk
Apr 14, 2003, 1:33 AM
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The thread has been unlocked and should remain that way unless or until the discussion degenerates into an inflamatory argument.
Best,
amber
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camhead
Apr 14, 2003, 1:41 AM
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word.
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calamity_chk
Apr 14, 2003, 1:43 AM
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ps, while i have gained some valuable insight from some of pete's posts, i have learned lots of really cool stuff from people who are *way* more modest about their accomplishments. as such, they have tons more of my respect.
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socalclimber
Apr 14, 2003, 1:50 AM
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copperhead is a wall climber of major proportions, far better, more skilled, and way more experienced than PTPP will ever be. Haven't some of you figured out yet that the really, really good wall climbers barely ever talk about there accomplishments. Ever hear Tucker Tech spraying, ever heard Steve Gerberdine sparying, ever here Wally Barker spraying, Steve Sutton, Hugh Burton, Jeff Perrin. Christ, the list goes on and on and on. Wake up, these people help set the standards.
This is long over due. I do not for one buy for a second that all this spraying from PTPP is just an "Internet personna". It is a constant assault of self promotion.
I have long since given up on reading PTPP's posts. First, I can't stand the constant spray fest, second, there is so much random commentary mixed in, it's distracting.
Keep it up copperhead! Unless some SOULESS COWARD CENSORS YOUR THREAD!
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socalclimber
Apr 14, 2003, 2:04 AM
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A quick note, not intended to cause thread drift. I AM RETRACTING MY STATEMENT OF CALLING AMBER A COWARD for locking the previous thread. She posted her reasons after I had just read the locked thread. I never saw her post!
SO, HERE IS MY OFFICIAL APPOLOGY. I'M SORRY AMBER, YOU DID THE RIGHT THING TO KEEP THIS IN ONE PLACE!
Robert
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calamity_chk
Apr 14, 2003, 2:16 AM
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:oops:
too kind, robert. i sincerely appreciate the apology/nod. we'll have to climb something big and scary someday.
anyways, let's start the discussion again here ..
In reply to: copperhead is a wall climber of major proportions, far better, more skilled, and way more experienced than PTPP will ever be. Haven't some of you figured out yet that the really, really good wall climbers barely ever talk about there accomplishments. Ever hear Tucker Tech spraying, ever heard Steve Gerberdine sparying, ever here Wally Barker spraying, Steve Sutton, Hugh Burton, Jeff Perrin. Christ, the list goes on and on and on. Wake up, these people help set the standards. |
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copperhead
Apr 14, 2003, 2:36 AM
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Uhhh… Thanks Robert and Amber but this isn't about me. I'm just another climber sitting at a Deli table with a few words to say. Let's leave it at that.
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timpanogos
Apr 14, 2003, 2:52 AM
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How does the old saying go – the best revenge is living a good life? (or in this case providing a faster, easier or “better” way)
I’ve certainly learned most of what I know about aid (ok failed my first solo attempt at a easy aid route – Prodigal Sun – because I was too darn slow) from Pete – but also realize that there are many incredible wall climbers here (like Bryan).
I would love to see another “sticky” index thread to Bryan’s way – and any others whom the site judges as Wall Doctor Level.
Another saying goes – “The pen is mightier than the sword” (or the Forum is Mightier than a singular Pete on the rock challenge).
Other wall doctor’s could/would have a good foundation – (Sticky * Index to Dr. Piton Stuff) to give their alternate styles, objections, and thumbs up or whatever – as the index is a fairly comprehensive A-Z coverage.
Just as strongly as Pete’s pride (persona or whatever) comes through – so does Bryan’s bitterness.
Man I can sure relate to both of these parties. I am as proud and arrogant as they come, and also continually allow bitterness (usually based on my our pride and arrogance) to cancer my soul.
After years of trying to drop my pride/arrogance and my bitterness to my fellow man – I still cannot succeed – The alcoholic in me I suppose – I really hate that about myself.
It’s tough (and very self destructive), ain’t it guys!
Chad
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socalclimber
Apr 14, 2003, 3:02 AM
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In reply to: Uhhh… Thanks Robert and Amber but this isn't about me. I'm just another climber sitting at a Deli table with a few words to say. Let's leave it at that.
Sorry (I seem to be saying that allot lately), I didn't quite mean it to come off that way. I guess my point is, I'm sick of all the head nodding that goes on around here. Yes PTPP, your the man PTPP etc etc etc.
Anywho, copperhead certainly hasn't posted as much info as PTPP, but what he has posted is straight forward, clear, and concise.
It is absolutely time for PTPP to put up or shut up with regards to his claim of being one of the best wall climbers in the world.
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tim
Apr 14, 2003, 3:20 AM
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It's also time for the people who choose to attack or support Pete, to articulate why they do so. Maybe you've met him in person, or maybe you've had an unpleasant dealing with him, or feel like his ethics aren't up to snuff.
But this thread is on the hairy edge of being a full-on ad-hominem attack, and the only thing that saves it is that Bryan has cited extremely specific reasons for his discontent. I assume that Pete will as well, if he rebuts the topic. He is, without a doubt, a competent debater and writer.
I hope that the rest of those involved in this discussion will hold themselves to the same standards. It could turn out to be an interesting study in what people regard as 'ethical'.
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tenn_dawg
Apr 14, 2003, 3:25 AM
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Hear, Hear, Tim!
Everyone can abide by that. Heck we're all adults here. We should be able to properly articulate our discontent, and arguments. Childish namecalling has no place in a discussion like this.
Travis
Bryan and Pete are Dorky Nerds
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kungfuclimber
Apr 14, 2003, 4:22 AM
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Bah.. I don't want to choose sides.
copperhead: you may well be a better climber than pete. You may be more humble and less inclined to spray.
pete: the personality may irritate some people but I would much rather that than you stop posting.
In short, I really don't care if pete pisses other people off. I mostly come to this site to read his posts and try his wall techniques. This "challenge" reminds me of kids daring each other to lick the frozen metal pole.
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timpanogos
Apr 14, 2003, 4:39 AM
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I agree with Tim's statement
In reply to: It's also time for the people who choose to attack or support Pete, to articulate why they do so.
I kind of agree with Tim's statement
In reply to: Bryan has cited extremely specific reasons for his discontent
Bryan has been very clear (for some time now) on his discontent with Pete’s personality attributes. However, he as NOT been very clear with is discontent with Pete’s “Better Way”
Of late Bryan tends to respond to PTPP posts with short – passive aggressive – sarcastic one-liners. However, I have also seen Bryan respond with excellent, concise and excellent alternatives.
So, I’ll once again stand up and be counted – I personally like to follow PTPP antics, and hungrily gobble up the “Better Way” technical buried in the verbiage. I support him.
This does not preclude me from anxiously seeking other points of view and I just as anxiously look for posts from Bryan and others. How disappointing when, instead of given alternate beta – I read sarcasm.
The only real consise (and possibly correct) technical arguments that I have read Bryan respond about the better way is that it is too complex and too slow (but typically not elabortated on).
My attempted consise reasons for supporting Pete were actually given as an unspoken challege to Bryan some time ago
http://www.rockclimbing.com/....php?t=23226&start=3
So let me outright give Bryan (and others) a challenge - go through the condensed index in the above list and respond to the various technical better way concepts in the index - PLEASE give us your way to simply that which is too complex - thumbs up that which you use in your system - warning anything you find dangerous or unacceptable - Share your knowledge, share your experiences.
I give this challenge for very selfish reasons – FEED ME – I want to be successful in someday soloing a big wall and I know that you and others have the beta to help me do this. Attack the problem (technical) not the person (god like persona). Keep the Aid Forum the place on the net to come for true Better Way wall climbing techniques proven by the best – and Bryan is obviously one of the best!
Let me also give the moderators a challenge – Give those “worthy” (Bryan being one of them) a sticky post of their own – a precise, concise experienced “Other Ways” book in the RC.COM aid climbing bible would surely be a valuable addition to the book of Pete.
Chad
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drkodos
Apr 14, 2003, 4:56 AM
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No sticky posts for anyone or anything......why elevate status of one over another. Timing is everything. Nothing here is that important that we need to be constantly reminded of it.....
Brevity is to be cherished.
Remember, all these posts are like farts in a hailstorm. At worst, they smell bad for a little while and then something else blows in.....
:P
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kixrox
Apr 14, 2003, 5:50 AM
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The finer points regarding the pros and cons of PTPP, and all that is entailed in the grand scope of his digital persona, can apparently be debated ad nauseam.
Some of you take yourselves so seriously on the matter of some one who clearly enjoys his passion and enjoys sharing on the subject.
Perhaps all that remains may be as simple as yay or nay.
Yay to PTPP.
Naysayers have the free choice to avoid his posts. Or they can devise diabolical challenges to expose the demon who lurks amongst us.
"SHEESH"!
**
Since this topic spans several threads and this thread was momentarily locked, this post was originally posted elsewhere and moved here due to relevance to this topic. kixrox
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flamer
Apr 14, 2003, 5:59 AM
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Having decided that I want to say something, but also being aware of the many good points that have already been made. The only thing I can really contribute is this.... ANYONE with a serious EGO problem need's to be "humbled" every once in awhile.
The original Poster- copperhead- real world name- Bryan Law is a very accommplished Climber.
I knew this about him before he started posting here...how did I know?
Here's how- Look back in old issue's of R&I and climbing. Now scan the Small little blurbs in the front (I can't remember what the actual section's are called). You will see his name linked to all kinds of bad ass 1st, 2nd, and just plain hard ascent's. Now, and this is key, Look at who reported this stuff...it wasn't Bryan!!! Now I will concede that I don't know Bryan personally, but the man appears to have little to NO EGO!!
My point here is not to start an "all hail copperhead" thread!!
I guess my point is you don't need to be a self promoting ego maniac to know what you're doing!!
I'm ranting so I'll stop....
josh
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pbjosh
Apr 14, 2003, 7:03 AM
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I in general think that Pete's posts are too wordy, too bold (as in fonts) and frequently the tradeoff of time put into sifting through them vs. useful information is (for me) not worthwhile. I've read a fair number and picked up a couple of ideas here or there but generally I think that if you're learning to aid climb you should keep it simple. If you're experienced and trying to get better that's great, but I'm getting sick of reading that "Pete is the wall doctor and if you don't do it his way, you're doing it the wrong way." Generally I choose to just skip the posts...
For what it's worth I can fully see where Bryan and others get irritated. The are a lot of stellar wall climbers out there and I've never heard a one of them spray, and now everyone on this site thinks Pete's this superhuman hero.
At the same time I think it's great that Pete puts so much effort into his posts and helping people but perhaps he could tone down the spray and keep things a little bit more brief!
josh
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atg200
Apr 14, 2003, 10:15 AM
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I have learned a fair amount from Pete, though these days I can't sit all the way through any of his posts any more. I've discarded more than i've used, but I have to say I am a better climber because of some of his posts.
On the other hand, as the moderator of this forum and a user I can't stand his persona. I don't appreciate his behind the scenes pm pseudo-moderation, which i believe keeps this forum more as a lecture from pete than a discussion. I don't like that Pete has set himself up as a sort of god of aid climbing and even worse has a chorus of sycophants chiming in on every post. I think this disgusts a lot of good wall climbers and keeps away far more content than it contributes. Put yourself in the shoes of a world class wall climber - would you like to add to a thread called "Ask Dr Piton .... " with a bunch of pandering in it? I don't even like to post in those threads, and i'm a gumby.
Personally, I really wish Pete would chill, but he won't. I've debated to myself about changing the titles on the Dr Piton posts, but even though I hate those titles I won't. I'm sick of all of this though, and between all the pm's i get from pete asking for this and that to be changed and pm's from users complaining about pete, i wish i had never agreed to be the aid forum moderator.
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punk
Apr 14, 2003, 1:08 PM
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The PTPP Vs Copperhead debate
PTPP – at the beginning great info and for me when I was accustomed to a particular way gave me a new way of looking at things some I tried and they had being working for me and some plain don’t work for me but the knowledge was laid out and u could pick and choose
Lately the info is wrap up with so much fluff that it is hard to just get to the point and honestly I just don’t find it informative as it used to be (most likely all chewed up and spited again)
Copperhead – I know that there is awesome knowledge there BUT it is like squeezing water out of a rock…spill the beans copperhead and enlighten us I know that it is dreadful to sit down and formulate an informative post (form my own experience I just wish I could be done with the keyboard before I even started typing) but hey… look at PTPP u can get very good and efficient in typing, that u can sometime over do it… ;)
But then again, I am just a wanker and I do not know what the hell I am talking about all I posted in this site was from my limited experience of trial and error
Ok I will stop now b/c I am not making sense anymore
PS
I am just hoping that all this post will result in opening a new door to a world of knowledge to all RC.comers without the fluff and the egoism
:)
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bighigaz
Apr 14, 2003, 1:56 PM
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:lol: ... and Pete has of course left this thread completely alone. (so far)... I'm sure he is just reveling in it! This is the kind of attention and "controversy" he wants! I have to say is that RC.com wouldn't be the same without him. Long live PTPP!!!! :shock:
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jds100
Apr 14, 2003, 2:02 PM
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First: I'm not an aid climber, and don't aspire to be one. I rarely -no, never- come into the Aid Climbing Forum. One reason is the very kind of "debate" that this thread represents.
I think it's worth considering, what a few people have alluded to, that the Pete persona and his sycophants may be more or less driving away other very qualified big-wall climbers. Could the Forum be of higher quality with more and better input from other wall climbers, were it not for having to wade through so much self-promotional sewage in so many of the threads?
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neadamthal
Apr 14, 2003, 2:16 PM
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what an EPIC!
i agree that ptpp has been prolific and prodigious in his posts, but i also think that he needs to chill the f out. there's no need to try and start a war on this site, especially over such personal subjects. ptpp needs to open the drain so he's not so full of himself.
why does he feel the need to tell everyone on this site that he thinks he's the best bigwall climber out there. who the f cares who the 'best' is. its far too subjective to even discuss. we all appreciate his advice, but its not worth the rants that he provides too. there is much to be said for brevity, especially in the world we live in today.
make your point and shut up. and on that point...
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merlin
Apr 14, 2003, 2:36 PM
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IN MY OPINION (excuse to avoid annoyance) everyone is welcome to their own faults... what does abit of Ego really matter in the scheme of things? PTPP is welcome to post, and i am sure many people are gratefull for the advice that he provides, and as far as i can see if u dont like the attitude he represents, then dont read the posts.
BUT.
if he has been hassling people, moderators etc.etc. then i believe that he also has to recognise that other peope can have their faults aswell, defferent as they may be from his. (although the definition of Ego as a fault is somewhat ambitious)
anyways, once again this is only my opinion
P.S) i am in no way implying that Mods arent people with the seperated terms... :p
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rockprodigy
Apr 14, 2003, 3:11 PM
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OK, I just thought this was so funny I had to post something about it:
In reply to: I’ve certainly learned most of what I know about aid (ok failed my first solo attempt at a easy aid route – Prodigal Sun – because I was too darn slow) from Pete
PTPP has this guy so brainwashed that he doesn't realize that Pete's system is too darn slow!
I'm not a bad-ass A4++ aid climber, but I can say that I've climbed El-Cap in under a week, and what I get out of Pete's writing is how to do any wall-related task with the absolute bare minimum required effort, regardless of how long it takes. Therefore, if you're going to use his "better way", make sure you've blocked out at least a day per pitch.
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glockaroo
Apr 14, 2003, 3:49 PM
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So Pete is an egomaniac with a colorful online persona and a mischievous (sp?) PM agenda. Question is... who cares?
So Bryan is a supposedly humble climber god with a penchant for revealing his need to establish a pecking order online. Question is... who cares?
Who forced you people to read Pete's posts? Nobody.
I've never met Pete except through this site. I've had fun and picked up a few good wall tricks. It never hurts to have a variety of tools in the toolbox.
But this idea that Pete is the only advanced wallclimber with an overextended ego is BS. The others are just better at hiding it.
People who are truly self-realized don't have a need to start threads like this. They just take a casual note of the person who irritates them, think "whatever", and go on with their self-actualized lives.
If it bothers you that so-and-so says they're the best wallclimber in the world, what does that say about you? It says that you're actually concerned with who the best wallclimber is. It says that you have a need to preserve the climbing world's pecking order. Where's all that zen-god humility now?
The energy you expend to prove "him" wrong just gets wasted.
To semi-quote a guy from rec.climbing: "when all you've got in the world is climbing, it really shows." How true.
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copperhead
Apr 14, 2003, 4:38 PM
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Wow, I stirred things up quite a bit! Don’t know if this is good or bad, but let’s continue.
Bitter alcoholic? Dude.
Two beers last night; 3 beers the night before; and nothing else. I laughed the entire time I was writing the ‘challenge’ though my sense of humor might be a little warped (or hidden behind the slander).
Please don’t put me on a pedestal (as Pete has done for himself). That's why I started this thread in the first place. I’m getting sick of reading my name 10 times in a post. There are many climbers out there who can climb circles around me any day of the week. Can’t we just leave it at that?
Rockprodigy wrote:
In reply to: "I’ve certainly learned most of what I know about aid (ok failed my first solo attempt at a easy aid route – Prodigal Sun – because I was too darn slow) from Pete" -(Timpanogos) (bold type added for emphasis) PTPP has this guy so brainwashed that he doesn't realize that Pete's system is too darn slow!
No offense to Chad whatsoever (we are CR 500 brothers and horsepower keeps us honest) but what Rockprodigy said is precisely my point. How about traffic jams on routes like the Zodiac and the thought of trying to pass someone like Pete, let alone a party of three living life “the better way.” I don’t have time to continue this right now but I will be happy to outline why I disagree with some of Pete’s climbing systems. I may be slow at presenting my ideas, but that is a matter of laziness and my two-finger typing, not me trying to be an asshole. How about I start with that pointed hook thread that I never answered? I sure could use a digital camera though…
Glockaroo, you are completely missing the point. No pecking order – just a level playing field.
In reply to: "when all you've got in the world is climbing, it really shows." How true.
Hardly. I spend my winters in school studying geology and my spare time on my dirt bike. I race (desert) when I get a chance (but I’m no super-fast guy). This forum is a place to have fun, provide info, slander a little, and try to stay in touch with ONE of the sports that I love. Climbing is not everything to me but maybe it is to Pete.
It’s a beautiful (partly cloudy) day and the dirt is moist! Yahoo, time to go out and have some fun. I’ll check back later.
Until then don’t stress. We’re all trying to have fun and the meaning of life is FUN!
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drkodos
Apr 14, 2003, 4:48 PM
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In reply to: People who are truly self-realized don't have a need to start threads like this.
People who are "self realized" don't even go climbing.
"Self realized" people, like yourself, obviously, have far better and rewarding things to do, such as making the planet a better place for all of us to live.... :wink:
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veilneb
Apr 14, 2003, 5:08 PM
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The solution is simple. If you have problems with PTPP's posts, don't read them. If you have personal issues with PTPP, don't be his friend. Is that so difficult?
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krillen
Apr 14, 2003, 5:19 PM
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In reply to: So Pete is an egomaniac with a colorful online persona and a mischievous (sp?) PM agenda. Question is... who cares? If it bothers you that so-and-so says they're the best wallclimber in the world, what does that say about you? It says that you're actually concerned with who the best wallclimber is. It says that you have a need to preserve the climbing world's pecking order. Where's all that zen-god humility now?
I find it funny that you guys will sit here defend pete after his copious"self promotion" but if any of you were sitting around the camp fire at a crag and heard some guy spouting off half the stuff Peter has said on this site, you'd be be calling him an arrogant blowhard, if not worse.
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glockaroo
Apr 14, 2003, 5:43 PM
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Brad: why do you quote me with your comment? Didn't I mention PTPP's egomaniacism? (wow, is that a real word...)
Bryan: why do you need a playing field unless you're competing?
Man its easy to get sucked into these threads. Whatever.
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krillen
Apr 14, 2003, 5:48 PM
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Sorry, I was tryingot refernce Peter's quotes overall, and yours were the easiest to grab.
The idea was that anytime I hear someone mouthing off on how good they are, ususally the are full of it and people tell him so. Here for some reason they worship him.
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alpinelynx
Apr 14, 2003, 6:44 PM
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you people sound like the old hens at my mothers hair salon... or Drag Queens.
Pete's information is presented in such a way as to completely confuse the f''k out of me. I'm a gumby new aid climber with little experience and need things presented simply. Am I stupid? hardly. I really could care less about what an a''hole he is. However I admit that I would rather not have to weed through a load of self agrandisment to understand how to haul.
To say that Bryan doesn't have and ego or doesn't spray is a sort of confused view.. But this forum, correct me if I'm wrong, is about aid CLIMBING not aid PERSONALITIES. I will say however that the most valuable guidance regarding aid climbing I've heard yet is "Efficiency is key." I'll add that what's efficient for me may not be efficient for you or bob or steve or mary or anyone else.
To me, the challenge in aid climbing has nothing to do with anyone else but myself. I have a goal, I want to complete such and such climb in such and such style. My challenge is then how to acheive those goals with the resources that I have available to me (This sometimes includes weeding my way through Pete's egocentric rhetoric and asking questions of certain people who I can't stand personally. Just because I don't like someone doesn't mean I can't find something useful in what they say.) Sometimes my goals are NOT to complete the task simply, but to try a system just because it sounds like FUN and to add more information to my limited store so I can better decide what is the most efficient method for me.
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joebuzz
Apr 14, 2003, 7:35 PM
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Hi all... I just had to put in my two cents. First of all, I couldn't care less who said what when. If folks don't like PTPP's posts or persona, don't read 'em.
Now, I was one of the people that helped Pete last fall in Yosemite. We hung out for few days and I generally had a good time. I don't think "The Better Way" is nessesarily the Only Way, but like someone said a bit ago,"Why not have a few more tools in your toolbox".
As far as ego's are concerned, sure Pete is a little boisterous, but so what. I've worked in and around the outdoor/climbing for quite a few years and have met many of the professional athletes/climbers that we read about in the mags. Just because they don't post & rant here, doesn't mean they are little angels either.
Mostly, before I get off track, I'm not here to say that Pete is "The Greatest Wall Climber Ever", but as someone who has actually met him and spent a little time with him, I would gladly do it again.
Peace all... Buzz
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epic_ed
Apr 14, 2003, 8:39 PM
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Jesus. I go out climbing for a weekend and look what I come back to! ;-)
I think Chad (Timpanogos) summed up my thoughts -- I'm just looking for information. That is something Pete and Bryan have supplied in spades. I could do without some of Pete's self promotion, but he has toned it down since the flame fest in 11/01 the Brian linked on the opening of this post.
As for the challenge, I think it's legitimate. If you are going to represent yourself as a "wall doctor" or as a someone who is looking to get a "paying gig" for dispensing his technique and wisdom, then you open yourself up to scrutiny and criticism. It's one thing if you are sharing the same information as "Joe Humble" climber and are passing it along as experienced gained, but clearly Pete has higher aspirations. I don't necessairly fault him for that. But it is what it is. Heck, looks like it HAS helped him land a paying gig (Rock & Ice?).
So it will be interesting to hear Pete's thoughts about the challenge. More interesting will be how he reacts to the challenge ( has he learned from the defensive barage he launched in 11/01?). Maybe I'm just not seeing the sinister side of Bryan's comments, but what's so out of line with his proposal? Yeah, yeah...I know. He framed it in a rather adversarial manner. But if I'm willing to give Pete a break with all of his self-promoting blather and still consider him a friend, I can certainly accept Bryan's cynicism wrapped around some legitimate questions about how one of this forums most highly regarded aid climbers will handle some challenging ethical issues.
Bottom line for me, I have absolutely no interest in choosing side. I just want to know how to effen climb.
Ed
FWIW -- I think Pete is on the road right now (coming back from Florida, I think?).
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jumaringjeff
Apr 14, 2003, 9:02 PM
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I love how PTPP hasn't said a THING about this yet and there's already 3 pages of FUNNY SCHIT.
Thanks for brightening up my day everyone.
:o
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cloudbreak
Apr 14, 2003, 9:52 PM
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...
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verticallaw
Apr 14, 2003, 10:04 PM
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o.k. I'm gonna put my two bits in. I don't know Copperhead or Pete. While I have read posts from both. This seems to be a waste of time. I agree that their are many different pro's and con's for the knowledge each has and one may be a better climber.........who cares???
I log on to this forum because I am learning and do not have the comfort or ability to have a instructor. Thankfully I have been climbing for some time so I know that my own abilites to test theroies before my life deppends on them is pretty good.
Pete's forums are insightfull and easy to find. I think his "ego" is also a way of lightening up some of the information would you rather read ............ clip biner "a" to haul point "g" invert etc etc etc......... or wow man i tried this while soloing "insert route here" and it sucked!!! I prefer to read technical info when it has a story to it
I think it would be great if there where more articles like the one's Pete writes from other climbers. It would give me more info to absorb. If there where index's like Pete has made I would find the information easy as well.
This forum has several people with some amazing knowledge..... why cant we leave it at that? If Petes personality bothers you than deal with his personality PRIVATELY...... I know my personality has bothered some big deal......so we don't all agree........ I wold be pretty creeped out if we did.
Cheers to ALL who provide the valuable information that makes up these forums!!!
Mike
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wonderbread
Apr 14, 2003, 10:06 PM
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Perhaps a ruler could help settle this d1ck measuring constest???
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alpinelynx
Apr 14, 2003, 10:45 PM
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yes!
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socalclimber
Apr 14, 2003, 11:28 PM
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That's exactly what this is about. Climbing. What Brian is bringing into question is this:
PTPP claims to be a master wall doctor, and to be one of the greatest wall climbers around. Brian brought up a number of points, but one that truely stuck out in my mind was the fact the PTPP aids through the tough scarey free sections. If he is a wall master, then he should have no problems leading the 5.11 offwidths, chimneys etc.
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billburning
Apr 15, 2003, 12:08 AM
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If he were truly a wall master, he'd climb walls other than El Cap as well.
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coyoteblues
Apr 15, 2003, 12:22 AM
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In reply to: This forum has several people with some amazing knowledge..... why cant we leave it at that? If Petes personality bothers you than deal with his personality PRIVATELY.....
Why is it that he can take shots at others but the shots at him need to be private (is it because they lack the subtlty that he does)?
Working behind the scenes is one of ptpp's specialties. He's a game player and someone is calling at least one of his hands in the games he's playing.
Its not about trying to support copperhead against ptpp (I don't think copperhead needs any support anyway). Its about calling BS what it is. Some people just happen to be a little fuller of BS than others.
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iamthewallress
Apr 15, 2003, 12:26 AM
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In reply to: If he were truly a wall master, he'd climb walls other than El Cap as well.
It's worth saying again. Pete has proven himself to be an accomplished hobbyist and a megalomaniac, but I haven't seen anything that points to "wall master" yet.
I wish someone would take the PTPP index off the top of the page. It's not his forum, and the pre-existing rc.com search function is far less arcane than his index. I cringe at the idea that a newbie looking for info on getting into aid climbing will look at that thing and the accompanying arse-kissing threads from Pete's water boys and think that they're in the right place
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yosemite
Apr 15, 2003, 12:53 AM
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In my house, I have only broadcast TV. I only view the few channels that lack white noise and static. On RC.Com, I also try to view only the posts that lack white noise and static. My goal in watching both TV and cruising RC.Com is to get content. PTPP broadcasts too much white noise and static for my taste. For me, Pete blocks out any beneficial content with his relentless need to remind me of who he thinks he is and that he is “bitchin.” Maybe it’s my loss but I can’t judge the quality of content cuz the level of noise makes finding any nuggets of worthwhile beta similar to picking fly turds out of a sugar bowl with boxing gloves on. In PTPP’s posts, the messenger dominates the message. And that is a loss to both the message and the messenger.
My challenge to PTPP is to match Bryan’s Expando thesis for quality, quantity of information shared, and brevity.
Gene
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flamer
Apr 15, 2003, 4:51 AM
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I want to clarify my earlier post. I wasn't trying to put Copperhead up on a pedestal. The point I was trying to make is this...You can be an excellent climber, with tons of knowledge to share (and share it), without having to constently point out how cool you are!! Bryan just happened to be the easiest example at hand.
Bryan, sorry if I put you on the spot with that crap...
I guess nobody is perfect...but it's the ones who have to point out just how perfect they are that you have to worry about.
josh
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mozea
Apr 16, 2003, 5:40 PM
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why hasn't pete responded...he's always up for this non-sensical shit.
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elcapbuzz
Apr 16, 2003, 6:14 PM
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Pete WHO???
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alpinestylist
Apr 20, 2003, 12:40 AM
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I have only dealt with Pete online, and met B. Law in the groveler's lot drinking. Neither are my "Bro".
Pete does rant about himself quite a bit, and this may be the only thread he isn't in on? interesting.
Pete is an extension of the "chongonation" philosophy. I love Chongo, and have spent brief periods (before blasting on routes) chillin, and talking with him. no beef with Chongo himself, but takin a pitch a day pace is kind of crappy. If you have nothing better to do, Pete sells insurance, maybe he doesn't, then go ahead and do it...just please not on something crowded.
Pete seems to love getting the shoutouts from people who have wall climbed very little. Bryan may prefer a subtle head nod after 6 old E's for breakfast.
Pete has totally looked to leverage his internet interactions into something else.
I also don't like big cams overcoming wide cracks, but that is just technology, and your choice.
In the end claiming to be the best wall climber in the world is quite ludicrous if you've never climbed outside of Yosemite...
actually in the end T-A=0...talk minus action equals NADA!!!!
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mojorisin
Apr 20, 2003, 3:16 AM
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Interesting thread.
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rrrADAM
May 1, 2003, 4:34 AM
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Wow... I didn't see this one, but I sure am prominantly mentioned in many quotes from the good Dr... But 'copperhead', you left out my favorite from that thread, where he stated that he would post a letter of from George W. Bush himself stating how bitchin he was, or something like that. I'd go find it, but I have a hard time grabbing the page scroll bar with my mouse on pages that PTPP has posted to, since it shrinks down to a sliver inversly proportional to the lenght of the page. :lol:
For more of my quotes, and those of many others, please view his "Quotes of the day" in his profile. Most if not all come from PMs sent to him... So after that be sure to read his rant where he "Emphatically opposes making or posting PMs publically". Damn... I can't remember thatword that starts with an "h" that describes this behavior. What is it ??? :roll:
Don't know much about the history of our newer accomplished big wallers, but I do know that they frequent rec.climbing, a site where Pete was laughed off of, since they all know ther shit over there, and called BS on him. It seems that Pete has had a chance to get quite a head start over here, as many are eager to believe that PTPP is some Big Wall super hero.
And this isn't totally acurate:
In reply to: ... but one that truely stuck out in my mind was the fact the PTPP aids through the tough scarey free sections.
He aids anything above 5.8 or 5.9. He's been seen by numerous people at a gym in Hamilton, Ont, Ca pulling on draws while TRing 5.9's, so I think it should read "...aids through the easier free sections". :lol:
Hint to all of his sycophants who are wondering why he has not replied... Because he lets, and often times encourages, you to do it for him, since he knows he cannot honestly rebut anything said thus far.
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lambone
May 1, 2003, 7:16 AM
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This is my first post to this web site. I have lurked for a while here and there, but over all it has way too much noise to hold my attention. Some cool photos though!
Anyway, I thought I'd chime in here for the hell of it. I just have a couple of things to say about copperhead and Pete.
First, I think Bryan is a super nice guy. My buddies and I were scared to jump on Tangerine Trip (before the retro) without a drill. We met Bryan at the base of his route and he offered to let us borrow his. Gave us the all the gear we needed no questions asked and tips for how to use it right. Then he even gave us beers! That may go down in my book as one of the most bitchin things any climber that I've just met has done for me. I look forward to seein him in the valley again sometime. And I think it was about time someone called out Pete.
Second, I only met this Pete guy once, after he soloed Shortest Straw, and only brefley in the manure pile parking lot, we hardly even met, more like exchanged nods. I was like- damn thats rad, nice job dude....
I think it's pretty cool that Pete has spent so much time with the goal of teaching others, that in my opinon is one of the most honorable things a person can do. But I suspect hidden motivations, like the shameless self promotion that Bryan points out. Maybe since it has landed him a job with R+I he will tone it down some...
There are two things about Pete's style that bother me, one: His systems are to complex to be as effecient as he claims. I've tried some of them and have only gotten frustrated and went back to my own method, which for me is the Better Way. I can imagine hundreds of newbie wall climbers all crosseyed from reading to much of his BS, getting no-wher on El Cap fast.
Second, his lack of concern for the preservation of the rock and route quality...hence the name PTPP. He promotes Pitons over clean aid, and doesn't seem to give a shit about clean ethics. Considering he is in OUR country, I'd prefer that he have a bit more respect for our National Park.
I think he's just spent too much time with Chongo, who seems to be one of theose guys who will talk yur ear off even if you don't give a damn about what he is saying...
Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
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flamer
May 1, 2003, 9:02 PM
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I think he's just spent too much time with Chongo, who seems to be one of theose guys who will talk yur ear off even if you don't give a damn about what he is saying...
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Dude you MUST know Chongo!!
WARNING!!! If you are sitting around a fire, in Camp4, and a weird Homeless looking dude comes up and starts talking about "strings" and how they connect the universe...RUN!!!
josh
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lambone
May 1, 2003, 9:31 PM
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My experience with Chongo was rather interesting. I was with a few of my friends who attend a Christian school. As soon as Chongo found out about thier faith he went of on this tirade about how he could disprove the existance of God with quantum physics, and that Jesus wasn't crucified, but moved to Japan...
My friends were ready to jump him. Which is when he began his second tirade about the Christian faith being what is wrong with the world today, and the cause of all war, and distruction...
I sat back and listened, entertained, not really taking sides either way. It was all quite comical under the imensity of El Cap. But in the end I didn't see much difference between well know televangalists and Chongo, they like to hear themselves talk, they are entertainers, and their WAY is allways the Better Way...but thats ok with me, cause at least their having fun.
What eventualy pissed me off and caused me to get up and walk away was when he started talking about how todays wall climbers are stupid and don't know jackshit about what they were doing. Then he started talking about how he's invented all these new techniques because he uses his brain (and we don't). When what he really did was re-invent the wheel by introducing concepts originating back to the invention of common rigging practices used by engineers and sailors. I took personal offense to this, and have had sort of a negative opinion towards him since. I recognize his preaching style in PTPP's posts, it's obvious.
Anyway, chongo is who he is and thats cool, more power to him!
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copperhead
May 1, 2003, 10:59 PM
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What’s up Lambone? You decide to take a little break from ST? Good to see you here. Got any beta to share on any of the threads? You’re buying the beer next time, right?
I enjoy talking to Chongo and find the discussions interesting and thought-provoking. We may not always agree on things but Chongo is cool. If any of you happen to meet him, take the opportunity to ask him about something, whatever it may be… You might learn something.
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jumaringjeff
May 2, 2003, 12:15 AM
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i bet he knows how to roll a nice 'chongo' cigarette.....
:lol:
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gawd
May 2, 2003, 12:28 AM
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Pete, why don't you tell us about The Reticent Wall.
I personally think pete is full of shit! I have met him and listened to him rant in the valley and I personally think most of what he has to say is a waste of air.
Climb your walls Pete, but no one really cares.
Pete creates work with his and Chongo's style.
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lambone
May 2, 2003, 1:32 AM
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Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1399
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Hey c-head, yeah I got plenty of time to kill now that this is my last quarter...only 2 classes! But it still fucks my day for climbing so i just BS about it. I came here to join forces with you in harshing on PTPP, what an easy target!
Oh yeah, and maybe I'll write some stuff too...
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