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kalcario
Apr 15, 2003, 6:31 AM
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*This is exactly the attitude that is giving this device it's bad name. The Grigri should be used as if you are belaying with a munter hitch. A life should not be entrusted to the locking feature. Primary safety is ALWAYS the responsibility of the belayer.*
BUT YOU ARE trusting someone's life to a locking feature! You are always trusting someone's life to a belay device that in some manner locks up!
*Just because you haven't dropped anyone doesn't mean you are 100% safe.*
Did'nt say I was. Nobody is.
*The handle should be fully released when rappelling or lowering, the brake hand does ALL the braking.*
ABSOLUTE BS. The device does almost all the work when lowering, the brake hand does like 10%, you'd burn the hell out of your hand if "the brake hand does ALL the braking" when lowering. If you "fully release" the handle you WILL drop the climber. You either have NO IDEA what you're talking about or are having trouble articulating, please refrain from posting until you do!
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niftydog
Apr 15, 2003, 8:10 AM
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>BUT YOU ARE trusting someone's life to a locking feature! You are always trusting someone's life to a belay device that in some manner locks up!
A munter hitch or a belay plate doesn't "lock up" it creates friction that assists your braking hand to hold the fall.
What I'm saying is, trust the friction the device creates rather than the locking feature.
>ABSOLUTE BS. The device does almost all the work when lowering, the brake hand does like 10%, you'd burn the hell out of your hand if "the brake hand does ALL the braking" when lowering. If you "fully release" the handle you WILL drop the climber.
I use my Grigri to rappel in my job and that's how I operate the handle. As a matter of fact I used it three times this morning for 50 foot rappels and my hands are not even tender! I didn't drop myself either.
Perhaps by saying "the brake hand does ALL the braking" I've not been totally clear. The brake hand controls the rope through the device, but the grigri provides most of the friction that slows the descent.
PETZL;
"Braking and descent control are effected by loosening or tightening the grip of one hand on the free end of the rope."
the same is said for the "Stop" and "I'd" which employ similar principles.
they go on to say;
"The handle can assist in braking..."
But in my experience, using the handle in this way is frustrating. You end up with a very bumpy ride due to the fact that you cannot hold the handle with the precision required to keep the friction constant. This is particularly so when rappelling, maybe less so when lowering. But if the weight shifts or the friction in the system varies I fail to see how you can get a smooth ride from a Grigri used in this way.
I certainly wouldn't allow the handle to do 90% of the work, that's a little more than "assisting" the braking!
For me, it doesn't look very professional when you're bouncing like a yo-yo trying to get down from the ceiling!
Perhaps you need to employ an extra karabiner to run the free end through to increase the friction. Or (heaven forbid) Gloves?
PS:
>You either have NO IDEA what you're talking about or are having trouble articulating, please refrain from posting until you do!
Why is everyone on the net so god damned spiteful?! Sheesh, you can't even post an opinion without some jerk telling you how to "articulate" properly, or how you know nothing about the device you trust your life to on a daily basis!
Have your disagreements, hell, make a voodoo doll of me for all I care, but why is it so hard to express yourself without resorting to insults and saying "I'm better than you so nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah!!"?
So... unconstitutional behaviour makes it to rockclimbing.com eh?! First the terrorisim debate, then the war, now the net, what's next?!?!
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timpanogos
Apr 15, 2003, 8:12 AM
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Anyone reading this thread please dont listen to kalcario about not holding onto the rope on the break side of the grigri NEVER let it go - ever - there is no reason to do this purposfully - ever.
Yes there are wonderful techniques for advanced belayers to avoid short roping a lead (key word advanced belaying) in which thumb and index finder is all that is needed HOWEVER the fingers are NEVER removed from the break.
If Top Rope Belaying full hand grasp the break side rope just as with a atc pure muscle memory for atc to grigri interchangeability if for no other reason. There is no reason to not do this on top rope only reason to differ the grip for lead (from full hand to fingers) is for short roping reasons and the thumb-finger grip should only be maintained during the feed out for lead and immediately go back to full hand after feed once again muscle memory it will become automatic you will do it with out thinking (just like you will drop the break hand without consciously thinking about it if that is what you do all the time).
Apparently Kalcario has not done much rappelling with a grigri, because if he had he would realize that the grigri is way too shock loady on your anchor and nothing but a way jerky rappel can be obtained without totally releasing the break handle with your left hand while atc style (100%)breaking to control your speed with your right hand.
So, what is actually ABSOLUTE BS is Kalcarios statement,
In reply to: you'd burn the hell out of your hand if "the brake hand does ALL the braking" when lowering.
Chad
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hippie_dreams
Apr 15, 2003, 12:48 PM
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[quote="kalcario"]I'm assuming the screen name is from the Neil Young song "Hippie Dream" which with lyrics like "...and the Wooden Ships...were just a hippie dream..." is mocking of the '60's hippie ethos. Remember the CSNY song?
"...Wooden ships, on the wa-ter, very free (and easy)...ea-sy, you know the the way it's suppossed - to - be ..."
Sorry for the gratuitous rock trivia.
Of course, maybe the guy's never heard the song, I don't know...
quote]
--I've heard the song, and know its lyrics, but my screen name actually comes from the very first climb I ever did outside -- Hippie Dreams 5.7 -- It is located at Summersville Lake in the New River Gorge, West Virginia. It's important to me because after that climb, I was hooked for life.
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kalcario
Apr 15, 2003, 1:40 PM
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* Apparently Kalcario has not done much rappelling with a grigri, because if he had he would realize that the grigri is way too shock loady on your anchor and nothing but a way jerky rappel can be obtained without totally releasing the break handle with your left hand while atc style (100%)breaking to control your speed with your right hand.*
"Totally releasing the break (sic) handle" implies you are cranking back 100% on the handle, in which case the grigri is doing practically nothing and your hands are creating more friction than the device is. Is this really what you mean?
Also the thickness and condition of the rope make a big difference, rapping down an 11mm static line, yeah, you've gotta really yank back on that handle, but do the same thing with a brand new dynamic 10mm, and you'll drop like a stone.
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kalcario
Apr 15, 2003, 2:50 PM
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*A munter hitch or a belay plate doesn't "lock up" it creates friction that assists your braking hand to hold the fall.*
I think most people would disagree with you here, belay devices create friction when the rope is running through them but lock up when used to hold the climber and stop a fall
*Perhaps by saying "the brake hand does ALL the braking" I've not been totally clear. The brake hand controls the rope through the device, but the grigri provides most of the friction that slows the descent.*
Exactly. Thank you. Bear in mind that when dispensing advice about belay devices your words might be taken literally by someone who does'nt know any better.
*Why is everyone on the net so god damned spiteful?! Sheesh, you can't even post an opinion without some jerk telling you how to "articulate" properly, or how you know nothing about the device you trust your life to on a daily basis!*
By your own admission you are not being totally clear, which is OK when talking politics or the weather but NOT when dispensing advice and purporting to be knowledgeable about belaying. The person who took your advice literally is'nt gonna be around to read your "what I REALLY meant to say was" qualifiers.
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kalcario
Apr 15, 2003, 3:02 PM
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hippie_dreams:
So what is your assessment here? You're saying that she was hanging on to the brake end although her hand may not have been in the brake position, and that the grigri was not threaded backwards. I'm saying that the grigri will lock up no matter how you hang on to the brake end, and unless there was massive rope drag, which there was'nt because you were only 30' up, or your body weight was'nt enough to activate the cam, which since you outweigh the belayer by 50 pounds was'nt the case either... also I know the Red pretty well, what route was it? From your description of it as 40' high, I'll guess Way Up Yonder at the Roadside?
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mbond
Apr 15, 2003, 3:09 PM
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In reply to: What you are saying is, if you try really hard, you can make it malfunction. Agreed.
I think what mreardon is saying is that there are conditions under which the locking feature of the gri-gri will fail. To you, this may mean "trying really hard to make it malfunction," but the fact that such conditions exist means it is possible for it to happen inadvertantly, and thus the locking feature should not be relied on 100%.
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drkodos
Apr 15, 2003, 3:48 PM
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My route guess: Maypop 5.10
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imagineero
Apr 15, 2003, 6:11 PM
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at the risk of creating an even greater controversy, every belaying/rappel device out there is really only a friction device which have their limits (as published by each manufacturer) in terms of how much friction *assistance* they can add. beyond that it's your hand. With 10 years experience in trad I'm a relitve newcomer to the scene, but I also have some distrust of the gri-gri. Don't get me wrong - it's a great device that has it's place, but that place is not 5 minutes before leading a route on rock with a new belayer. FWIW here is a link at petzl for the gri-gri;
http://www.petzl.com/petzl/publicFamille?id=ASS#GRIGRI
as stated by petzl;
to effectively arrest a fall, pull the free end of the rope firmly downwards.
oops. just like any other belay device out there. No special mention of the automatic camming device. It is a *backup*. don't let go of that rope~!
Petzl again;
It has been developed for indoor wall climbing or for climbing on well-protected sport routes where anchors meet UIAA standard. It should not be used for mountaineering or adventure climbing.
I think there's a lot in that statement. Shock loading for one. I personally believe the real home of the gri-gri is the gym where it has saved countless broken ankles and just made stuff a lot easier. Having belayed on every device I've ever seen as well as owning a lot of them I personally prefer the sticht plate on lead for its superior rope control. But then I am a vigilant belayer who knows how to give a dynamic belay and reduce strain on *all* parts of the system, so having a lot of stopping power at the belay device is not that important to me. The biggest enemy of the gri-gri is probably also its best point; its ease of use. Something of an analog might be found in the internet.
Long ago when dinosaurs roamed the earth the net was accessable only to nerds who knew the arcane art of unix. it was a pain in the ass, but that kept people away from merely 'dabbling' in it. In short it was for people who were willing to commit a serious amount of time to it. The web made it possible for the average Joe to have a go. So it is with climbing. In the past deciding to climb was a decision that entailed serious risk of life and a reasonable commitment to learning the gear, practicing and possibly an apprenticeship to someone more experience. you certainly wouldn't have decided to take it up for an afternoon's leisure. Equipment like the gri-gri reduce the learning curve and make it possible for things like climbing gyms to exist without needing an extensive training program. The good side? It has opened up the joys of climbing to a whole new group of people (for better or for worse). The bad? Those people probably aren't in any position to be making the
decisions they are making.
In the hands of a competent trained person the gri-gri is just as good as any other device out there and from some perspectives better. It is certainly close enough that the device you choose will come down to a matter of personal preferance rather than clear technical superiority. In the end I believe that it is the experienced guys who are to blame.... how many of us have taken a rock virgin out for the day without investing the right amount of time to train them? With a long list of drop out partners and greedy for a belay on that new route you've been eyeing off, devices like the gri-gri are a way of buying a little extra peace of mind for yourself when you hand the rope over and say
'it'll be right mate, this is an automatic device'
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freudian
Apr 15, 2003, 6:51 PM
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I just want to add that I teach my belay partners how to use the ATC first. Then... much later, I might show them how to use a GriGri. Once you've used an ATC ... the grigri is pretty easy.
Many reasons and faults have been mentioned about why the grigri fails... another reason to stay away from devices that have too many parts and are complex.
Keep it simple. Use an ATC. If your giving your belayer a grigri cause you're unsure if they can catch you properly or not... then they should not be belaying for you.
My 2c
Andrew
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jt512
Apr 15, 2003, 10:22 PM
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Damn! I go on a 3-day climbing trip to Arizona and come back to find I've lost my job as Chief BS Caller to Kalcario.
-Jay
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niftydog
Apr 15, 2003, 10:44 PM
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>The person who took your advice literally isnt gonna be around to read your "what I REALLY meant to say was" qualifiers.
The person who took my advice literally should be shot for failing to get proper training in the device instead trusting the opinion of a complete stranger from the other side of the world.
Don't be ridiculous. This is a forum isn't it? forum: A public meeting place for open discussion.
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alpnclmbr1
Apr 15, 2003, 10:47 PM
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being right does not justify being an ass
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drkodos
Apr 16, 2003, 12:18 AM
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The "ends" don't justify the means....? :?
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alpnclmbr1
Apr 16, 2003, 12:39 AM
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I'm speaking about separate topics
I will qualify that even more, I find it troubling when someone can make me mad on an internet thread,(not just this one) that is my problem. But your going to get a little resentment back if your the one contributing to it.
If someone acted like that at a crag???
Anyway I am leaving tomorrow to climb for a couple of weeks.
there I feel better now :?
ps. I don't think this is anymore of a waste then most of the posts on this thread anyway.
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mreardon
Apr 16, 2003, 1:52 AM
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"Thanks for understanding the point of the post. Did you have any minor injuires from the fall? How long did it take before your wife was comfortable belaying again?"
I walked away from the fall and spent the following week in the Needles, but my knee still has a knot in it about the size of a golfball that acts up during certain movements. As for my wife, besides the fact that she was in near tears at the thought of having almost killed me (or that she didn't complete the job :D ), it took her and I almost a year for us to get the confidence back to where it was. I still have hesitations when I'm on a hard lead, but we're getting there.
Kalcario - Yes I remember filming Jason and Tif, and I also remember that they always had their brake hand ON when using the grigri, not off when the climber fell. If they took it off when someone was hanging, they either wrapped the brake side around their leg one twist, or tied a quick knot (they taught me those little things because I use the grigri all the time during filming). Both of these are simple enough to prevent slippage. If their habits have changed since then, or they don't practice what they taught, then that's their issue not mine.
When I jumped at Owen's after missing a couple bolts to teach my wife about dynamic belaying, there was a big enough shock that the grigri locked up. At Malibu there wasn't enough shock and the grigri didn't lock up. When I gave you the example, it wasn't to demonstrate a malfunction because it's not a malfunction of the device, it's a mistake by the belayer that is common enough and would never happen if the belayer holds on with the brake hand.
Why is that so difficult to comprehend and causing such a long-winded argument? Especially from you? We're not talking about having to perform a magic trick or answer some impossible physics question. Just stating that holding on with the brake hand is a good idea (read the directions). If you do not hold on with the brake hand, accidents can, and do happen.
Personally if my belayer is too lazy to hold on to the brake hand (or tie a simple knot when I'm hanging and they need to do something with the other hand), then they're obviously too lazy to pay attention while I'm climbing. And I prefer to have someone pay attention.
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caldous
Apr 19, 2003, 2:47 AM
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Radistrad, how can you say you don't believe a brake hand is necessary with a Gri-Gri? A gri-gri is only a mechanical device, that can fail. Without a brake hand you only have one point of braking. A brake hand gives you another point that you can be sure will work just as well as when using an ATC or similar device. I don't think that one should put trust into one mechanical device. That's why anchors should be doubled, or trippled, that's why we use more than one 'binier with opposing gates.
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creenski
Apr 19, 2003, 4:06 AM
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I totally agree with you cal. I am a relatively new climber, just under a year of experience, and one of the first rules that was drilled into my head was ERNST. Redunduncy is key in climbing. While yes, the gri-gri is a grea device to use with added safety features, i can't think of why anyone would say that using a brake hand is unnecesary. It's kind of like saying we shouldn't wear seatbelts in cars with airbags...why not double up any system used in climbing??
As for not letting your girlfriend belay for you for a while. I definitly don't think the answer to your problem is going to be moving on to another belayer. Maybe instead of not climbing with your g/f, instead you might show her how to properly use a belay device? All but one of the people I climb with are men, all of whom outweigh me by at least 50lbs, and I have learned to use an ATC and GriGri properly so the weight difference isn't an issue. All I'm saying is don't scare your girlfriend away from the sport...let the accident be a learning experience, and get out and climb!
Rock on,
Creen
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stillmacrae
Apr 19, 2003, 4:25 AM
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just for the info. i work at a climbing gym and i've seen problems with our
gri gri's locking up before. it's easy enough to fix if you are able to open it up and play with it but that's not really an option with someone on your rope. i think if it can happen once or twice it can happen again. personally i don't like the thing and it can make for lazy balayers
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renobdarb
Apr 19, 2003, 6:14 AM
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In reply to: i don't like the thing and it can make for lazy balayers
FINALLY!!!!!!!!!! someone else who gets it! the gri gri is a functioning, effective belaying device, no doubt about it... it's just that many people put all their confidence into the device... like i posted earlier, i've heard too many people say, "if you fall and your belayer isn't paying attention, the gri gri will catch you"... no matter how much Petzl says that there's no substitute for belayer attentiveness, people will STILL get lazy because they'll assume the device will do the work for them...
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michell_e
Apr 19, 2003, 6:54 AM
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In reply to: I dont believe in a break hand on the gri gri, its not necessary. I am right handed. I cradle the gri gri in my left hand so the cam release (where the handle pivots out) is near my left thumb. I only have my thumb on the cam release when I am watching my partner and pulling rope out with my right hand.
:!: if you are really determined to do the one-handed thing, try this instead, its just as easy, you can still feed rope easily, and you can eat your doritos (or other activity of choice) with your other hand when not feeding slack:
:?
right palm tilted slightly upwards, with the last 3 fingers of your right hand closed completely, but loosely, over the rope. ( your hand should now look like you are pointing a fake 'cocked' gun at someone in front of you, elbow at your waist) rotate your wrist out ward slightly so you can use your index (pointer) finger to hold the bottom of the gri gri, and rest your right thumb on the cam release (handle pivot). You can then feed rope occasionally with your left hand, and take up slack with your right if you need to. This way, you have your fingers already around the brake rope, and already in brake position (rope leading down from grigri) at all times, and ready when your leader falls. if you are not gripping too tight, your thumb will slip off the cam handle and it the gri gri will do its magic. (or, if you are uber-paranoid, you can just make lifting your thumb the one thing to remember.) Bonus is, you don't have to freak anyone out by not having your hand on the brake.
try it, it works!
michelle
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vicum
Apr 19, 2003, 7:27 AM
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I look at a gri-gri the same as the safety on a gun. Both are mechanical devices that can and will fail. The first thing you learn in handling a gun is never point it at someone, EVEN if the safety is on. The first thing you learn belaying is never take your brake hand off the rope, EVEN with a gri-gri. Neither a gun safety nor a gri-gri are perfect. Both are simply there for a added security. I wouldn't shoot or climb with someone who thought they are, no matter how long they have been doing it. ~Arnold
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mr_phelps
Apr 20, 2003, 7:16 AM
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I think it was totally a belayer-climber screw-up and not a gri-gri malfunction. Look at the scenario, a guy on a sport climb with his girlfriend belaying him. Why did she have so much slack out? And why did she not anticipate a fall, that's the belayer's job on a sport climb. Why did he not anticipate a fall and start yelling for her to take out slack? Why would he go for a clip without saying so? Bad Communication?
I am not saying this is all her fault or all his fault. Personally, I would never go up a climb if I did not have confidence in my belayer. That is his fault. However, blaming a piece of equipment does not change the fact that she still did not catch him. No brake Hand? Is this some new form of belaying for those who want to kill their climber? I am guessing that she "felt bad" so he decided to be a nice boyfriend and blame the gri-gri.
I guess the gri-gri could have failed, but how does a piece of equipment work one second and not the next, and then work again on the ground? Anyway, if I had dropped someone I would certainly not want to take the blame. I am going to chalk this fall up to reckless/improper use of a piece of a equipment and not malfunction of the unit.
This post interests me because I have a gri-gri and I use it all the time. Itn some aspects you could argue that it's safer than an ATC because in the event that you get pulled off the ground, the climber is still locked. Also it's much easier on the forearms letting someone hang with a gri-gri than locking them off with an ATC, which sucks. I had to learn on an ATC and then after a while I bought a gri-gri. it's just a little more convenient. But it does have almost no moving parts, and it would probably require some odd situations for it not too function, like a really small rope, or a very dirty rope.
I am willing to contend that a gri-gri is not a replacement for belayer responsibility. I think it's probaby stupid to ever take off your brake hand, kind of like driving with no headlights at night, in a snowstorm, over a canyon, with a trunk full of C4.
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menotyou
Apr 20, 2003, 8:48 AM
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Maybe she was trying to drop you? You piss her off recently?
As for the grigri, I will happly belay someone with one. But I NEVER let someone belay me with one. grigri's make it to easy to not pay attention.
- Charlie.
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