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johnhenry
Jul 6, 2002, 3:13 AM
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Hey Laurent,
I had similar confusion, as you can see above. Dr. Piton's method recommends:
1.)The use of the frog system of ascending with a petzl croll ascender for fixed ropes, such as those often used at the beginning of a wall climb to get a head start
2.)A frog-style system substituting a grigri for the croll for cleaning aid pitches
3.)the standard yosemite two jug method for low angle jugging
Have fun, John
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passthepitonspete
Jul 6, 2002, 10:21 AM
Post #27 of 39
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Bon dia Laurent,
You have finally posed your question in the correct location. Part of understanding the Better Way is to ask in the Right Place. There are too many BWT's lurking in other forums - beware! [play Twilight Zone music...]
Johnhenry's comments are right on the mark.
First of all, it's the Petzl Frog system. [Hint: think of your neighbours to the north-east - they invented it.]
You can build this system in one of two ways - with a Croll ascender for jugging fixed lines, or with a Grigri which you use when you are cleaning an aid pitch.
While you can clean aid with the Frog, and you can jug fixed lines using a Grigri, neither way is as efficient.
Which hand operates the Grigri, and which hand operates the jug depends on whether you are right- or left-handed.
I am left-handed, so when I clean an aid pitch, I pull the rope through the Grigri with my right hand, which is my weak hand. So I'm operating my jug with my left hand.
So you'd think I'd have a left-handed jug, wouldn't you? The gold Petzl?
Well I don't. I have a blue right-handed one.
There are three reasons for this:
1. Generally speaking, if the jug is not actually pressing up against the wall, I turn the thing around so the handle faces away from me, and I don't grab the handle at all. I put my hand over the top of the jug caver style - the same way as you operate a Petzl Basic ascender.
The reason I operate it this way is because it gives you much better leverage to have your index finger pressed up tightly against the rope, than it does to have your hand in the handle which is several inches off-centre.
The only time I actually put my hand in the handle is when there is not enough clearance to turn the handle away from me.
This is the one and only reason I use a handled ascender on the wall - for those times when I'm weighting the rope and pressing it against the rock, which on the overhanging routes I usually climb is perhaps only a quarter of the time or so. Otherwise I'd just use my Basic which is smaller and lighter.
2. I bought the blue one because that was the only one in the store at the time.
3. It doesn't matter.
Yes, when cleaning aid, the Grigri goes right onto your harness. Angle the free end of the rope away from you and towards your weak hand. When you pull the rope through the Grigri with your weak hand, make sure your hand faces palm side up.
NO! I do not put aiders on my jug! There would be ten steps of crap hanging all over the place! Talk about making things harder for yourself.
I use a designated pre-tied and pre-measured sling on my jug, exactly as shown in the drawing above, except that the length to the footloop is slightly shorter to compensate for the handle on the ascender [the regular handled ascender is longer, hence having a lower clip-in point for the loop, hence you need a slightly shorter length of sling when using a handled ascender, than when you are using the Croll as shown in the drawing in my post above.]
I see that in the drawing above, they have tied the sling directly into the Croll, thus eliminating the clusterf*ckage of a locking crab.
While this idea is pretty good, I use what I believe to be a Better Way - I attach my handled jug to the sling with a maillon rapide. [see]am old school - when I started caving, they only made 'em in France. They are now known as quick links.]
This gives me one extra degree of freedom, in case I need the jug for some other purpose, like say as the inverted ascender on my 2:1 Hauling Ratchet. In practice, however, because I use a Croll as my inverted ascender on the 2:1, my handled ascender has no reason to become detached from its designated sling.
To attach the handled jug to the harness, I use a designated tied sling exactly as shown in the drawing above. I prefer this to using my adjustable daisy, though an adjustable daisy would work OK. A designated tied sling is less klunky than an adjustable daisy, and further eliminates clusterf*ckage, and this is the system of cleaning recommended by Dr. Piton.
You can click here to see it demonstrated by a Hottie.
Most importantly, by using the cavers' method of a designated pre-tied sling, you do not need to clip your jug onto and off of your daisy, meaning there is one less step to perform, meaning you are reducing the risk of dropping your jug.
You will need to complete your aid cleaning setup with an adjustable fifi tied with slippery 6 mm cord.
Now, why don't you go back to the Gear Forum, and tell everyone over there the Better Way to get your questions answered, which is to Ask Dr. Piton
Cheers,
Pete
P.S. I will be making a post shortly on the exact way to clean an aid pitch, using the notes I made on the wall a couple weeks ago. Stay tuned! In the meantime, check out the Hottie in the post above, as she is very bitchin'.
Hmm, how 'bout that - we've got another two-thousand hit post, eh?
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krustyklimber
Jul 6, 2002, 11:09 PM
Post #28 of 39
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I have two handled ascenders and have used them for the Frog system as well as the Gri-Gri system for cleaning and the time honored Yosemite system.
When using the Frog system the handle lays against my already flat stomach quite well and now with the addition of Pete's elastic strap instead of using my chest harness it drives itself upward easily AND comfortably!
And having taking a huge ride after having my upper acsender blow off the line while the lower one was open (I was lowering out), and having my rope not fail when I snapped the teeth down on it. I WILL NEVER CLEAN WITHOUT MY GRI-GRI AS A BACK-UP AGAIN, and since I am already using it as a back-up I may as well use it for my ascender too.
Yes, I would've gotten to a back-up not in a few more feet, but I couldn't stop myself from letting go of the trigger. I LOVE MY MAMMUT SUPERSAFE, it was totally worth the money!!!
Jeff
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laurent
Jul 8, 2002, 12:16 PM
Post #29 of 39
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Registered: Jan 26, 2000
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Thanks for your post PTPP.
Most enlightning... Now I understand better why you're an expert in french.
And once I'll buy one, I'll never call a Frog a Clog anymore! My excuses to Mr Petzl.
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timpanogos
Nov 12, 2002, 6:45 AM
Post #30 of 39
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Sorry if this is a dumb question. The Petzl frog system for ascending a fixed line calls for a "seat harness" with the Croll attached to the D-ring. I assume the Croll attaches just as well to your big wall harness?
Also, an elastic something or other was mentioned that Pete puts around his neck (to the Croll?)or something along these lines?
Thanks
Chad
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passthepitonspete
Nov 12, 2002, 7:02 AM
Post #31 of 39
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These posts are a bit dissected, hence the need for me to create an index - [HINT] to self.
You can click here to read about four methods you can use to hold up your Croll ascender.
Up until this very moment, I have been using the elastic cord around my neck because it is simple, compact and effective.
However yesterday, I finally got my hands on a Petzl Torse Chest Harness, which is a very inexpensive harness specially designed to be used with the Croll ascender.
You can click here to read about how to use the Petzl Torse in your Petzl Frog ascending system.
I believe the Torse to be the Better Way, and I may have the opportunity to test it caving in a few weeks.
You can stand by right here for Dr. Piton's In-The-Field Report.
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passthepitonspete
Nov 27, 2002, 4:15 AM
Post #32 of 39
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You can click here to read Dr. Piton's field test of the Petzl Torse.
The Torse is ETS!
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tenn_dawg
Feb 6, 2003, 10:17 PM
Post #33 of 39
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I'm with you about this system being the Better Way. Only once have I ever jugged a long pitch with other than the frog system.
Well, at least in a cave. I've used Tibloc's to regain the wall after an overhanging trad fall. (Too dedicated to bail, and too scared to "boing" up.)
I used the damn Yosemite method. It was a long jug too, almost 200 feet free hanging. I just knew that there had to be a better way. I mean JEEZ, I was having to rest after every 7 or 8 jugs near the top.
I didin't hear it from you though. I learned about the croll from another caver who was laughing at my setup.
I did pick up on the bungee cord neck cord from you though. I was using a piece of cord that was always either too loose, or cutting into my neck.
Yes, I am a Caver and I can ascend 200 feet in the dark while singing "Eye of the Tiger" to chase away the hallucinations from the dark.
Fear, Exhaustion, and Dark can do wierd things to somebody.
Travis
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ljthawk
Feb 6, 2003, 10:52 PM
Post #34 of 39
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Registered: Dec 2, 2002
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PTPP,
Funny someone mentions Golondrinas, I have a friend who decided to prusic up it, just to do it. Don't know how long it took, but he said he threw up when he reached the top. Everyone else I know uses the Rope walker for it, though I heard the MAD was taken there (Motorized Ascending Device). Never been there myself, one of these days.
So far Fantastic and Incredible (while dribbling water) are the deepest I have done, though I used the Rope Walker both times. Frog, in my opinion, is a much better system, I just wasn't up to Frogging that long of a rope. Now that I rigged an extra Krol (sp?) as an extra foot piece for long drops, I may give it a shot once we replace the anchors in there. That's another long story.
Again, let me know when you make it back to TAG.
Take care,
L.J.
www.seclimbers.org
[ This Message was edited by: ljthawk on 2003-02-06 14:54 ]
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passthepitonspete
Feb 6, 2003, 11:21 PM
Post #35 of 39
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Ha!
The cavers crawl out from under a rock, "pale anemic offspring of another age" or something like that, Tom Patey called us.
When it comes to jugging, cavers know stuff.
Travis, the Better Way is no longer the elastic cord round your neck. You can click here to read about the Petzl Torse chest harness. It'll be the best twelve or fifteen bucks you'll ever spend! Highly recommended.
Laughing voice of Doug McKenzie after his brother Bob ate a coffee sandwhich:
"He puked! My brother climbed Golon-fricking-drinas on prusik knots, and he puked!"
Bob: "Aw, take off, eh?"
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valygrl
Feb 7, 2003, 6:41 AM
Post #36 of 39
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Registered: Jul 8, 2002
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Hi Doc,
For those of us who already own two handled ascenders, can the Frog system be rigged with those, or is it really necessary to have a Crol?
Hope this isn't a repeat question.
Thanks,
Anna
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apollodorus
Feb 7, 2003, 6:57 AM
Post #37 of 39
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Registered: Feb 18, 2002
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The Croll has its lower clip-in point twisted, so that it stays flat when you clip it into your harness.
You can use any ascender with an upper clip-in point for the Frog. The upper clip-in goes to the elastic cord around your neck. The extra length of a handled jug will limit how far you go with each stroke, though.
The Croll is the best. The Petzl Basic is almost the same, but without the twist in the lower clip-in point. Petzl should put a clip-in point on the handled jug, just below the cam assmbly, so it can also work like the Basic.
[ This Message was edited by: apollodorus on 2003-02-06 23:38 ]
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passthepitonspete
Feb 7, 2003, 6:45 PM
Post #38 of 39
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Tom is right - the Croll is the best. But you can use most any ascender with the Frog. It works better if you can lay it flat against you, and it must be rigged as low as possible.
When Heinz jugged up the Trip, he had a regular handled ascender that I rigged for him in the Frog system. It was a tricky rig made with slings I knotted for him. [Though the next day when he attempted to replicate my rig, he couldn't do it as efficiently.]
So Anna and Tom, invest the twelve whole dollars and buy yourself a Petzl Torse chest harness.
Doctor's orders.
Besides, your investment will be returned twenty-fold on your first wall. It is far superior to the elastic round the neck.
[Just make sure your Wall Doctor is available to help you to rig and adjust the thing]
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