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ottoman
Feb 14, 2005, 2:13 AM
Post #26 of 39
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Yeap , Its climbers elbow.....dang thing did me in....and its been since 2nd week of november......still sore....just like hitting your funny bone.......glad its winter...or i'd really miss climbing....and all the friends say lets go to the gym and pull on some plastic.............pfhttttt
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singin_rocker
Mar 8, 2005, 6:45 PM
Post #27 of 39
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I'm not sure how much better I am now. I haven't really tried it in about 3 weeks. How's that for patience? Partly because my wife and climbing partner promptly broke her heel at the gym. So we haven't been climbing in a while. I may give it a try this or next week.
I have seen remnants of the pain surface from time to time. It happens if I overdo anything involving extending my forearm, such as carrying a guitar in it's case in one hand and a dell inspiron 2500 in the other.
Right now I have some wicked tendonitis in both wrists so after this post I'm laying off the computer for this evening. Any thoughts on climbing with that kind of injury?
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kprtx
May 16, 2005, 5:10 PM
Post #28 of 39
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Its me again. In my humble opinion, the tendinitis is the problem, just like you get from typing. What happens when you climb is you muscles grow faster than your tendons, causing inflammation, pain, and eventually failures, tears, and separations. So when getting on those big roof problems take your time getting into it, if you have a hang board, don't work out on it more than 3-4 times a week, this goes for a campus board also, because it will accentuate the problem very quickly. Also focus some time on working your extender muscles and tendons. We are all used to clamping down on things which makes for a very unbalanced arm, strong pullers but weak extenders. Good workouts for extensions are rubber donuts or for the poor man a bucket of hard rice or even flower-just stick your hand in with a fist and then extend! For me this was the key to stopping the tendon pain, which gets pretty serious if you don't give it a break. Anyway, take this with a grain of salt.
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singin_rocker
May 16, 2005, 5:22 PM
Post #29 of 39
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Hey,
I should have given an update on this. When my wife went to the doctor to get her heel checked out to find out how it was healing, I saw the doctor as well about my wrists and elbows.
Surprisingly, at least to me, he told me the whole mess was being caused by tense muscles around the neck part of my spine that were messing with the nerves in my arms. He gave me some meds and exercises. I am much better now.
The tense neck muscles were being caused by bad posture, working too hard at climbing, and probably other things. So I do my exercises, try to watch my posture and try to take it easy while climbing. I find I can still move like I did when I was a little kid, but my body pays for it when I do. *sigh* But the good news is I'm getting better! (Good advice about taking it easy on those ceilings)
My moral learned: Let the doctor be the doctor.
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dynosore
May 16, 2005, 5:52 PM
Post #30 of 39
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Registered: Jul 29, 2004
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Well, it seems I'm not alone. After about a year of climbing, I started to really push hard, 3X a week and it didn't take long to develop incredible pain in my elbow, it would start within the first 15 minutes of climbing sometimes. My shoulders were sore too, but more of a normal sore versus the unbelievable pain deep in my elbow. After struggling with it for a couple months, I realized I was done if something didn't get better. I talked to my tennis playing friend, and we definitely ruled out tennis elbow. He said "try this" and proceded to put his arm up in an L position, kinda like the old movies where the injuns said "How". I did that, then he rotated forearm and palm down, I did the same and about came unglued from the pain that radiated from my shoulder. Rotator cuff :x . Sure enough, it was.
I'm struggling through it now, 8 months later, I've tried to "take it easy" but keep aggravating it. I'm on a self imposed 2 month hiatus now, ice & gonna learn some knots, ropework ,and other things that will keep me moving formward in my climbing progression so I don't feel totally frustrated. Good luck.
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deschamps1000
May 16, 2005, 6:02 PM
Post #31 of 39
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Registered: Apr 29, 2004
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I have been climbing for 5 years, and have encountered the same problem about once a year.
PAY ATTENTION...
Anytime I start to have elbow problems I begin doing pushups and the problems go away within a week. All I have to do is about 50 a day for 2 weeks and I am fine. I highly recomend it, it works every time for me.
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ceebo
Mar 9, 2010, 1:30 AM
Post #32 of 39
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I had this problem about 2 month back, at its worst point my hand would shake involuntary through the pain (never felt like crying so much)
The pain is difficult to pin point but its closer to the outside of the elbow joint if i stand with arms by my side and palms facing in toward my hips.
The pain stoped after i figured out overhangs was causing most of it.. recently i got back on a overhang for a session and the next training session the pain started to linger again, its got me wondering if my triceps are too weak to take the extra weight on overhangs?
Im going to try doing 30 pushups a day, few sets of reverse wrist curls and the elastic band thing.. if none of that helps ill then try some tri workouts and if nothing from that i suppose its time for a break.
Did any1 notice that no matter how much the pain, the second you get back on the wall it immediatly stops?
Edit - this was old topic but im looking for any updated info on any1 who found the best way to stop and avoid the pain (other than taking a break!)
(This post was edited by ceebo on Mar 9, 2010, 1:32 AM)
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Suezee
Mar 9, 2010, 4:29 PM
Post #33 of 39
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As I was reading through these posts, I noticed a couple of recurring themes. 1. There are several different areas around the elbow that can give a climber problems. 2. None of you like to take time off to allow an injury to heal. 3. The last post was looking for something "new".
I'm a physical therapist in the sports medicine setting, and there is a treatment out there that can address all of the issues, but first: a little info on why these tendon problems don't go away. With some injuries, the body tries to heal itself, but it does so in an inferior way. For example, the repaired tissue can be mis-aligned, which makes it more prone to future injuries. In some cases, even the blood vessels are different: as a result, some of the deep portions of the tendon don't get a good supply of blood which can impair healing. When this process happens within a tendon, it is called "tendinosis". So, in order to get over these problems, three things must occur: You need to manage the dysfunctional tissue, you need to get healing blood products to the deeper portions of the tendon, and you need to re-model any newly healed structures into something strong and functional.
There's a technique that I have been performing on my patients for the last 4 years called ASTYM, and it has been extremely successful for me. It not only addresses the problems I described above, but in many cases, people can stay active during the recovery process. Remember; we want the tissue to re-model according to the patient's specific activities, so we want them doing their regular sports, if their pain allows. For most arm injuries, ASTYM has a success rate of at least 90%. You might want to check out their website and see if there is someone in your area performing the technique. It's been a great treatment for me to offer my patients. Good luck!
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onceahardman
Mar 10, 2010, 1:36 AM
Post #34 of 39
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Hi Suezee...
It's always nice to have another sensible ortho/sports PT around here. Welcome and don't be a stranger.
I have a couple comments/questions regarding ASTYM.
To be honest, I am speaking from relative ignorance regarding this particular therapeutic modality. I've been in private practice for a while, and have seen several different treatment methods over the years. ASTYM "sounds" related to several of the other "myofascial release" types of treatments, perhaps most popularized by John Barnes, years ago. There are similar soft tissue "releases" performes by chiros, using various plastic or metal tools.
I have never seen anybody claim an amazing number like "90% effective" for any kind of chronic pain before. I hope you are right, with all sincerity. Chronic pain is an enormous and expensive problem.
I was curious about your specific claim of 90% effectiveness, so I looked at http://astym.com.
There was a single quote, apparently from a single practitioner of ASTYM, claiming he sees 90% effectiveness. There was a lack of references to research, just a declaration that the research exists.
I'll point out, that if you look around the McKenzie Institute's website, http://mckenziemdt.org, you will find links to relevant research, and they don't shy away from providing potentially contrary results, either.
I'd really like to read it. Could you kindly provide a link to one, or preferably a couple studies, demonstrating 90% effectiveness for treating chronic pain? If it's the real deal, I'll get certified straight away.
Thanks, OAHM
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Suezee
Mar 14, 2010, 5:56 PM
Post #35 of 39
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I'm sorry it took me so long to get back to you...crazy last week...I would be happy to answer some of your questions regarding ASTYM.
Like you, I work in the private practice setting and have been treating patients for over 20 years. (yikes!). I was certified in ASTYM four years ago, and I probably perform the technique at least 6 times per day. ASTYM originally came to be as an attempt to treat the real pathology with tendon problems; that these are issues of tendon degeneration and inappropriate healing, rather than primarily an inflammatory process. As the involved physicians and therapists applied the process to different areas, they found that the technique was also very helpful with intra-muscular problems as well. ASTYM has also given me another way to assess soft tissue, as I feel different things with the instruments than I do with my fingers. So, can using a spoon or some other metal tool accomplish the same thing? Perhaps in some cases...but for me, I want to know that there is research and medical input behind what I am doing. This lets me know that my treatment is safe, that I am not damaging normal tissue in the process, and that my results are predictable.
Regarding the research and outcome information. Go back to the website to "Medical Professionals", then to "Why ASTYM is unique", then go to the research page. There you will find research summaries, publications, and the ASTYM outcome reports. Regarding the outcome reports: Certified therapists input their clinical outcomes into the company's computer base, and that is how the outcomes are calculated. If a therapist is not getting the expected results, they can contact one of the lead therapists involved and get some treatment tips that should help them. How many con-ed groups provide that on-going support after the training has occurred?
I remember the Barnes MFR techniques from the early '90s, and this is nothing like that. ASTYM is way-more evidence-based, organized in it's delivery, and frankly, has different treatment goals. We can talk about that later if you are interested.
I encourage you to look into ASTYM. As a tenured therapist, this technique has helped me in a number of ways. Diagnoses like tennis elbow and plantar fasciitis are fun to treat, rather than being the bane of my existance. Treating ITBS is easier and more effective with ASTYM. I have not done patellar taping since I have learned this technique. There are so many applications; it has made my daily practice more interesting for me. Check it out...it's been a great adjunct to my "bag of tricks".
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onceahardman
Mar 14, 2010, 9:26 PM
Post #36 of 39
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Suezee...
Is this what you mean (I didn't see a link to "research page")
http://astym.com/professionals/news.asp
These are news stories, not links to controlled studies.
I have NO doubt that, like most manual therapies, many people get better using ASTYM. I want to be clear about that. I'm not trying to be mean, or get in a pissing match. Honest.
My concern lies in the specific claim of 90% effectiveness for treating some kinds of chronic pain syndromes. I saw the single therapist's self-report of this number. I'm looking for a controlled study supporting this, not just a self-report. It could even be from a somewhat less prestigious journal like JOSPT. Just something that has undergone a bit of peer review, and supports the specific claim of 90% effectiveness.
I know that, since you've been through an accredited PT program, and have been practicing a long time, that you have an understanding of critical inquiry. You know what I'm talking about. Does the objective evidence exist (yet), or not? (I understand that, even if such a study does not exist, that does not mean the technique isn't 90% effective).
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Suezee
Mar 14, 2010, 11:12 PM
Post #37 of 39
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Try this to find the research and outcome data: www.astym.com/professionals/research.asp#publications. If not, re-check my last post and follow the prompts I outlined.
Perhaps my wording regarding the effectiveness is less-than-optimal. The quoted success rates reflect the patient's subjective report of being improved, staying the same, or feeling worse. What I called "effective" should have been worded, "X % felt improved" following treatment. You were right - my bad.
A large, randomized controlled study on lateral epicondylosis is in pre-publication status right now. Not sure of the journal. This same study was awarded platform presentation at last year's American Society for Surgery of the Hand's national meeting. There's an older controlled study on patellar tendinitis in the Journal of Sports Rehabilitation, but the posted reference is incorrect. Here's something you can start with, but if you can't find it, let me know and I will get the exact reference. Wilson JK et al. Comparison of rehabilitation methods in the treatment of patellar tendinitis. J of sports Rehab 2000.
Early in the development of ASTYM, there were two rat tendon studies which showed the technique did indeed stimulate increased activity in the fibroblast, and that this response was pressure dependent.
Yes, we must be careful to practice within evidence-based parameters. At the very least, our techniques should make anatomical sense. What I find so interesting about this technique is that at least someone is on the right track. The science continues to show that most tendon problems are degenerative in nature, yet the majority of the medical profession's approach continues to be anti-inflammatory based. (Bracing, rest, ice, cortisone, etc). I believe this technique has been so successful for me is because I am more effectively addressing the actual pathology...
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onceahardman
Mar 14, 2010, 11:59 PM
Post #38 of 39
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Thanks, suezee, that was closer to what I was looking for. The url you used was not functional as a cut and paste, but I rooted around a little until I found the references. Unfortunately, none of the references I looked at (albeit briefly) were available online, and when cut and pasted, they just referred back to the ASTYM website.
The outcome numbers appear impressive, but of course they are uncontrolled. For example, treatment for adhesive capsulitis reported 100% improvement over ten treatments. I am also 100% sure that 100% of my adhesive capsulitis patients have been "better" in ten visits, and I don't know anything about ASTYM. If 10 visits is 5 weeks of treatment, I'd bet that 60% would be "better" with a self ROM program, guided by an informative handout or booklet. Does "better" have an objective definition, like increased AROM, or is it simply patient's "feelings" about symptoms? If its just feelings, I'd be willing to bet massage therapy shows similar numbers.
Sorry to sound negative. I bet this system actually works pretty well. But "90% effectiveness" is an incredibly high number for any modality, be it PT, surgical, chemical, or whatever else, so that kind of number, used in an uncontrolled manner, gives me pause. I'll do a bit of research (in my spare time ) and get back to you. Thanks for the discussion.
EDIT:
Here is the link to the page I eventually found, with suezee's help. If anybody has clicky links to any of these papes, I'd like to read them:
http://www.astym.com/...rch.asp#publications
(This post was edited by onceahardman on Mar 15, 2010, 1:13 AM)
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Suezee
Mar 15, 2010, 12:49 AM
Post #39 of 39
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To: "onceahardman": Excellent point of view
To: Everyone Else: Sorry we hijacked this post, but I hope you got some good information.
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