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buttets
May 17, 2003, 3:40 AM
Post #26 of 55
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To learn trad - I feel the best way is to hook up with a trad leader that is known to be good and follow him for many routes. When taking the gear out check out how it was placed and the direction of the pull - ask if you don't understand why he/she put the gear in the way they did. There is a lot to learn on leading trad, but in time you will become confident in your ability to lead it.
Once you feel comfortable to lead you might try leading a route on a top rope. that way if you fall your rope your leading on will catch you and if your gear pulls the top rope will. Be sure the top rope is left with lots of slack, but not enough for a ground fall.
You must learn how to rack your gear - and once you find a way you like stick to it. nothing is worse than searching for the right piece when you're pumped.
Your trad rack should be simple and not with all sorts of gear thrown together. You don't need every piece of gear known to man. I use stoppers, tcus and camalots. Thats it for protection. I have climbed everywhere with my rack on all sorts of rock from very easy 5.8 to hard 12's.
The biggest problem with trad is the mental with most people. I don't make a difference between trad and sport - I enjoy both but feel I accomplised more when placing my own gear. Over time you may get use to the exposure or you may not. Many of my best climbs were accomplished by the skin of my teeth.
Trad also costs more than sport as it is gear intensive - that may be a consideration to.
The best advice is to hook up with a trad leader and use his/her gear until your convinced that you truly want to do trad..
Good luck and be safe..
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mr_gondola
May 17, 2003, 3:54 AM
Post #27 of 55
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I personally climb 8's and 9's on trad and have TRed 11's, so yeah there's a difference for some of us in grade. However, I've also taken a fall on a 9 and fallen multiple times on my nemesis 10a, still trying to make it my first 10a clean... :x So, I don't have a problem falling on gear because I trust my placements and haven't had a bad experience to persuade me otherwise. The 9 fall was almost a deck, but a piton held and I set up a crash pad...it's all in how you psych yourself up, safety precautions you take, and personal desire to spike the adrenaline or not.
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crackaddict
May 17, 2003, 5:33 AM
Post #28 of 55
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I always had to push myself on trad.
Thats because I did'nt have many partners that were up to leading trad when I started.
I did a lot of TR'ing before I led. I also did some mock leads on TR as well.
I was solid 5.9 when I did my first 5.7.
Then I worked up the grades.
I also always said that if I could TR with no falls there was no reason that I could'nt lead it.
Now if I see a climb that I want to do I will go for it or try to work towards it. By getting more efficent at the techniques for the climb.
A lot of times I am humbled.
A lot of times I make it and suprise myself.
Don't hold back.
Just don't be stupid about it.
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one900johnnyk
May 17, 2003, 2:09 PM
Post #29 of 55
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this got me thinking, do most of you carry log books to record all your pitches/routes or is that just a few??
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mr_gondola
May 17, 2003, 3:00 PM
Post #30 of 55
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I check off routes in my guide book and annotate season and year of the lead. Plan on doing that in every guide book I get.
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brutusofwyde
May 17, 2003, 3:37 PM
Post #31 of 55
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In reply to: As for pushing it - go for it. I trad lead very close to my sport level (about 1-2 letter grades apart - on a good day I'll onsight 11a or 11b trad, and I don't think I've ever onsighted 11c sport).
Ergophobe, would you take me climbing sometime?
In reply to: 1. Anytime you are pushing it, have two bomber pieces between you and disaster.
Hence your name? "Ergo" = "Therefore"; or "consequently",
"phobe" = "one having an unreasonable fear of"
As far as pushing it, usually I will only be pushing one piece ahead of me. #6 Friend or something.
I, too, amd afraid of consequences. But you got the e-name before I ever thought of it.
In reply to: 3. Never get the rope around your leg if you are pushing it.
In reply to: 4. Back off rather than risk a dangerous fall. One thing I would add that is more of a consideration when placing your own gear - be sure that you understand what the direction of pull will be on your pieces. Don't get lazy - put runners on your gear so it doesn't get yanked.
Seriously, though, all good, sound advice. Thanks.
Brutus
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petsfed
May 17, 2003, 6:01 PM
Post #32 of 55
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Pushing it on Trad is as much about mindset as it is about climbing ability and protection. If you think you're going to fall, then you will. Its that easy. If you approach a difficult, potentially tenuous lead as if it were a solo, you will have a better outlook for it. Mind you, that only works when the pro is crap to begin with. If not, look at it like a sport route with supremely awkward clips.
Falling on trad is a nerve racking experience. There are situations where falling is simply not an option. As was said, most routes under 5.10+ would really suck to fall on. Ledges, bushes, and wild abrasions await those who pitch. By the same token, I have climbed routes where it was a physical impossibility to actually fall. One would have to unjam all body parts, then throw oneself off of the rock, land, then jump again, before any damage would be done. I've also climbed routes that after about 20 feet, until the end of the pitch, if you fell, you'd hit the ground.
Be prepared to run it out. Learn to play head games on those fall proof climbs so you can do it without tweaking on the hard stuff. Just like "eliminate" in the gym, make it a point to use only one piece of pro on an eighty foot pitch (bring the whole rack in case you sketch though) for that exact purpose. Solo 5.2 bumblies. These are all good ways to become a bolder climber. And a good trad climber is nothing if not bold.
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vtposer
May 22, 2003, 2:17 PM
Post #33 of 55
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I generaly tend to push myself more when the gear is BOMBER. like cracks and other G rated climbs. If the pro is good you dont mind taking a wip or two. and if your really feeling squeemish you can just pop in a piece obove you and hangdog. :D
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jammin
May 22, 2003, 6:20 PM
Post #34 of 55
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Trad climbing is all about risk assessment and risk management. I lead trad solidly in the the 5.10 range but you would never catch me on a 5.7 X or 5.8 X. I have decided it is not worth the risk.
I you want to know what it's like leading trad at your TR limit, top rope a crack and try placing gear while climbing. Make sure you have a lot of slack on the TR and after every piece ask yourself "If I was leading would I feel comfortable with that pro?" and more importantly "would I feel comfortable with THAT run-out?"
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badphish
May 25, 2003, 2:58 AM
Post #35 of 55
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you want to be safe, especially in trad, but after that if your not pushing yourself your just chalking up good holds and wasting your time!
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stonefiend
May 30, 2003, 11:21 PM
Post #36 of 55
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In reply to: And a good trad climber is nothing if not bold.
are you from boulder?? if not, you should move there.. you'd fit right in.
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yomomma
May 31, 2003, 3:10 PM
Post #37 of 55
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I am new to trad, but what I'm finding is that no way do I want to push myself like I do on TR or sport until I feel confident that my placements are really going to hold. I think my placements are solid, but how can you tell that the rock isn't going to blow? The suggestions about aiding up and bounce testing seem good, but until I take an unplanned fall onto a piece, I'm not going to feel really sure. The last time I TR'd I flashed a 10c and a 10d. my hardest sport lead is a 5.9, but I'm pretty sure I'll be in the 10's the next time out. I've led one trad 5.8, but it really felt like a 5.6 with one 5.8 move at the top. Got on a 5.8 trad route last week but the first move was pulling a roof and I ended up backing off. I think I'll be sticking to 5.6's, maybe easy 5.7's for awhile. Less than 5.6 seems like too much stuff to hit if you do happen to come off.
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onamission116
May 31, 2003, 4:47 PM
Post #38 of 55
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When yo0u are ready to push yourself on trad, you'll know it. You may be capable of leading harder than you think, but until you are proficient at gear placement and are fit, don't try it. For me, a lot of it has been learning to focus on the physical moves and not the possibility of falling. Once you learn what is a good piece and what is a bad piece, try as best you can to "set it and forget it"
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addiroids
May 31, 2003, 6:29 PM
Post #39 of 55
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Well although there have been a ton of great responses, I guess I have to share mine too. When you are climbing, build your pyramid of ratings. Do a ton of 5.6, then a few 5.7, then add more 5.6 and 5.7 then do a 5.8 then a lot more 5.7 and 5.8, then a 5.9 and so on. Just climbing a lot is good, aiding a pitch is good (not the way I learned), and having a good mentor is even better.
On a side not about pushing yourself: I lead about 1 letter grade below my toprope ability. I am solid on 5.9/10a and would jump on most any 10b and have redpointed (2 tries) a 5.10d. But for me, lead or TR doesn't really matter. If it's hard, it's hard. Now if we are talking about a 10b R, then that's a different story.
Another thing. Don't sport climb. Yeah, yeah, "it makes you better because you can climb harder because you aren't worried about falling". Bullsh!t. You get better at something by doing it. If you want to get better at trad climbing, then trad climb. All the time you spend sport climbing could have been put to use on a trad climb, and you would feel much better about yourself.
Take a road trip to get a feel for different types of rock too. That will make you a better all around leader.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
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ergophobe
Jun 9, 2003, 11:18 PM
Post #40 of 55
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In reply to: In reply to: As for pushing it - go for it. I trad lead very close to my sport level Ergophobe, would you take me climbing sometime?
Man, I was down for Badass Momma the other day, but there was no Brutus.
By the way, as of a week or so ago I can now say that my hardest (just purely based on - guidebook grade) onsight trad lead is harder than
- my hardest onsight toprope
- all but two toprope redpoints.
- my hardest onsight sport route
- my hardest sport redpoint
The two last points may have something to do with the dearth of 5.4 sport climbs in my area.
In reply to: Hence your name? "Ergo" = "Therefore"; or "consequently", "phobe" = "one having an unreasonable fear of"
And all this time I thought it referred to those having an unreasonable fear of Descartes.
Tom
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mesomorf
Jun 10, 2003, 1:09 AM
Post #41 of 55
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In reply to: Falling my way up 12- in Indian Creek is no scarier than a well bolted sport climb.
In reply to: Now, on vertical splitter cracks like Indian Creek, yes, you can definately push yourself as hard as on TR, and even more because the pitches can be longer.
I can't agree with this opinion.
First of all, you have to have the right size cam on your rack. In Indian Creek like no other place, that means you must have many many cams, sometimes of the same size, sometimes a variety of sizes.
No cam to fit == runout.
Second, you're carrying the weight of that rack, not a little hula skirt of draws. Harder to push your limit that way.
Third, you have to have the energy/stamina to get the cam in, not overcammed, not tipped out, just right. Maybe it takes more than one try at getting the right size. OK now clip. Don't blow your cool!
Finally, I haven't been to Indian Creek in years, but in the old days everyone knew about this phenomenon called "railroad tracking." This is where the sides of the crack turn to dust under the pressure of the cams when the fall comes. (This is why Fat Cams were invented.) I have even heard of cam-shaped divots being broken off the outside edge of a crack.
Wise Wingate climbers don't let their feet get too far above their last piece, if there is any chance of becoming airborne.
"Leading at Indian Creek is like climbing on a toprope." Yeah, right!
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sheldonjr
Jun 25, 2003, 11:07 PM
Post #42 of 55
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Here's what I've just recently discovered, that seems to work well. 5.10c in four tries!!! :D
Pick a climb, and lead it. (Ground up rules.) Go easy on yourself, sew it up, hangdog, you name it.
Keep workin it with the pro still in. (Pinkpointing.)
When you've got it dialed, pull the pro, in order, and mark where they went with sidewalk chalk.
Redpoint.
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mewalrus
Jun 26, 2003, 2:16 AM
Post #43 of 55
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In reply to: Here's what I've just recently discovered, that seems to work well. 5.10c in four tries!!! :D Pick a climb, and lead it. (Ground up rules.) Go easy on yourself, sew it up, hangdog, you name it. Keep workin it with the pro still in. (Pinkpointing.) When you've got it dialed, pull the pro, in order, and mark where they went with sidewalk chalk. Redpoint.
ROTFLMAO,
I hope you were kidding??? :roll:
Who cares about numbers?
I guess for a good workout thats fine but I would never call THAT actually climbing 5.10c. Trad's appeal is all about onsighting, imho.
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petsfed
Jun 26, 2003, 3:07 AM
Post #44 of 55
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I'm formerly from Boulder. School was too expensive so I moved away. Bold is still in my blood though.
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pbjosh
Jun 26, 2003, 3:40 AM
Post #45 of 55
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In reply to: First of all, you have to have the right size cam on your rack. In Indian Creek like no other place, that means you must have many many cams, sometimes of the same size, sometimes a variety of sizes. No cam to fit == runout.
If you leave the ground in Indian Creek with incorrect gear you're either blind or a moron, probably both. Nowhere on earth is it so easy to predetermine what gear you'll need, and it frequently gives numbers of pieces of each size in the guide books.
In reply to: Second, you're carrying the weight of that rack, not a little hula skirt of draws. Harder to push your limit that way. Third, you have to have the energy/stamina to get the cam in, not overcammed, not tipped out, just right. Maybe it takes more than one try at getting the right size. OK now clip. Don't blow your cool!
The weight of the rack isn't that disastrous given that climbs at IC are enduro fests and not cruxy. Unless you're working on a heinous tips crack, where a heavy rack would be a pain, but at that point a bunch of TCUs don't weigh that much.
In reply to: Finally, I haven't been to Indian Creek in years, but in the old days everyone knew about this phenomenon called "railroad tracking." This is where the sides of the crack turn to dust under the pressure of the cams when the fall comes. (This is why Fat Cams were invented.) I have even heard of cam-shaped divots being broken off the outside edge of a crack. Wise Wingate climbers don't let their feet get too far above their last piece, if there is any chance of becoming airborne.
If you place your gear deeper in the crack this is much less likely to occur. I never condoned running stuff out, I place gear frequently at IC. As a side note I've heard a lot of IC regulars say that they're more worried about the fat cams pulling out than regular cams, because a regular cam will dig into the sandstone and a fat cam has a greater area for "floatation" if you will to allow it to slide out cleanly. I have no sort of scientific information to offer beyond this 3rd hand (to you) collection of opinions.
In reply to: "Leading at Indian Creek is like climbing on a toprope." Yeah, right!
For 95% of the routes there I think there is no greater fear or danger and only moderately more difficulty (increased endurance factor and having to hang off of shitty jams on the off sized stuff) to leading.
josh
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jt512
Jun 26, 2003, 5:00 PM
Post #46 of 55
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In reply to: Another thing. Don't sport climb. Yeah, yeah, "it makes you better because you can climb harder because you aren't worried about falling". Bullsh!t. You get better at something by doing it. If you want to get better at trad climbing, then trad climb. All the time you spend sport climbing could have been put to use on a trad climb, and you would feel much better about yourself.
As you are a personal trainer, I am surprised that you would make statements like those above.
After the first couple of years, just trad climbing is not the most efficient way to improve trad climbing. Eventually, a mix of sport-specific training and trad climbing becomes more effective than just trad climbling. One way to build sport specific strength for trad climbing is to sport climb because sport climbing relies on strength more than trad climbing does -- the angles are steeper and you don't get the mechanical advantages of camming feet and hands into cracks. The strength you gain sport climbing will directly benefit your trad climbing. Many former diehard trad climbers learned this when they eventually supplemented their trad climbing with sport. My trad climbing level, which had been plateaued for years, went up 2 letter grades after my first year of sport climbing.
-Jay
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paganmonkeyboy
Jun 26, 2003, 6:08 PM
Post #47 of 55
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another suggestion too - have a more experienced climber second all the easy leads you do, have them look and critique each placement, spend a bit of time looking at the rope management and what will happen if you had to take a fall from anywhere on the route. You don't want to zipper all your pro and take a grounder, and you need to be aware of this and use runners. when in doubt, use a longer runner and set it up so the rope can pull straight between the belay/directional and all the pro - its better to fall another foot or two than to have the pieces all pull out.
I took a friend out to an easy short lead yesterday. He is not comfortable with pro yet, though he flys on sport. Just like I did a few years back - he went cam happy in the sandstone and almost all of them were sketch when i seconded. The cowbell hex he set was probably the only really good piece, though one of the cams might have held in passive mode (fully extended, but still wedged in) but I am *very* glad we didn't have to test it. Its can take years and several stupid mistakes and injuries to get to the point where you are easy with the pro, don't take that route if you can help it. Taking a year off for not paying attention is just No Fun. When in doubt, set more pieces. The rack will get lighter and it just might save your behind. And yes - sometimes it is all about where you put your nuts :)
just my .02$, ymmv...
-tom
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sheldonjr
Jun 27, 2003, 10:44 PM
Post #48 of 55
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In reply to: I guess for a good workout thats fine but I would never call THAT actually climbing 5.10c.
WTF???
So nobody's ever climbed .15a? Simply because you didn't onsite doesn't mean you didn't climb it. My style of working a route clearly falls within the rules of redpointing. I work a route, and when I'm ready: I climb up it on lead, with no falls, placing pro as I go and using no assistance from my gear. I would actually go as far as calling it a higher standard than most, because the route is always worked on lead, ground up. To flame someone for their climbing technique is immature, especially when their ethics are in line with the "standards." I'm sorry you're not open minded enough to accept alternative techniques, but for the love of God, keep your ignorance to yourself!
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mreardon
Jun 30, 2003, 7:23 PM
Post #49 of 55
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1. Climb beyond your current skill level;
2. Fall;
3. Repeat as necessary.
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drector
Jun 30, 2003, 7:41 PM
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My answer to the question of do I push as hard trad leading as I do top roping is no. I will attempt just about any climb on TR. I will usually trad lead stuff 2 points below what I can TR just to be in a safe range. I sometimes attempt climbs closer to, or at my limit if the crux is well protected and short. The route dictates how hard I will push my trad leading, not my raw climbing alilities.
Dave
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