|
alpnclmbr1
Jun 28, 2003, 4:20 PM
Post #76 of 109
(5667 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
no point
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Jun 28, 2003, 5:39 PM
Post #77 of 109
(5667 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
In reply to: Btw. Robert this is a really nice thread, mostly thanks to you. side note: did you put up some heinous old school routes in red rocks?
Thank you, now for reality. Well I am blushing, and I wish I could admit that I've put up some "heinous" routes in red rocks, but alas, no. I guess I'd better spill the beans on my climbing resume.
I've been climbing around 9 years now. I have had several injuries (nothing major) that have kept me off the rocks for 3 to 6 months at a shot. 2 over use injuries didn't help matters either, but I have managed to get up some stuff. At points I was leading fairly solid up to the 5.9 level (by Josh standards), but with time off to recuperate I seem to find myself back round the .7 to .8 level leading trad. Don't sport climb much, but I love aid and walls. Made one summit on a wall, hope to set the record straight this summer with a couple of more. I continuously strive to be mediorcre. I have no problems with that. I hate spray masters.
I continuously climb with people way more experienced than I am, and with tons of years more time on the rock than I have. That's how I have learned allot of what I know. I have gotten myself into more stupid situations than I care to admit, that's also how I have learned how solve problems in a pinch.
Currently, I am running the Search And Rescue team for Joshua Tree National Park Service, JOSAR (Joshua Tree Search And Rescue). It's a new team but has had allot of impact.
I'm really into climbing because I truly enjoy it, and I enjoy the people I have met and climbed with. In no way do I wish anyone to think I am the mutts nuts with regards to self rescue, I've just had to deal with weird situations and thus have learned to handle myself.
If you wish to read about some of my bumblings, here is a couple of links that should prove entertaining:
http://www.socalclimb.com/tr_teamstooge.html
and how my wife and I met (climbing related):
http://www.socalclimb.com/tr_vegas.htm
and:
http://www.socalclimb.com/tr_wotws.html
and my one wall:
http://www.socalclimb.com/tr_skullqueen.html
Flames, threats, insults and the rest are completely acceptable.
Once again, fun thread!
Robert
|
|
|
|
|
alpnclmbr1
Jun 28, 2003, 6:04 PM
Post #78 of 109
(5667 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
Thanks for the interesting stories Robert.
the reason I asked is that I have had a feeling that we have met somewhere along the road. If not, I am sure I will see you this winter in J-tree, looking forward to it.
Dan
|
|
|
|
|
slcliffdiver
Jun 28, 2003, 7:00 PM
Post #79 of 109
(5667 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 18, 2002
Posts: 489
|
For the 8 are you talking about the version you start tieing an eight on a bite then pull a double bite through instead of the loop then pass the loop over the whole thing to the other side of the knot? This one is just as easy to adjust as the double bowline counter part (before it is weighted significantly). There is a downside to the double loop bowline (name?).
If the pieces pulls that has the loop that goes directly to a wieghted side (partner hanging on a munter or you weighing the tie in) the knot can extend (you can change this on one side to an extent depending on how you dress the knot). You can eliminate or at least limit this in a couple of ways but not everybody does this.
That much said I use a slight variation on the double loop bowline more often than the double loop eight. Maybe it's just habit, I might have had a reason at one point.
In reply to: In reply to: Hey if you guys post those pics, I'll post my neato way to tie the figure 8 with two easily equalised loops for clipping to anchors. I'm sure others have figured it out, it isn't that difficult, but the methods in books are always too complicated, and this one is really simple and worth knowing. The double figure 8 you are refering to has a double bowline counterpart. I find the double bowline easier to adjust. I need to verify this, but as I understand it, the double figure 8 loses a fair amount of strength once tied. I will go re-check my source today. As a general rule, I prefer having around 3 to 5 extra shoulder length slings, and at least 6 spare biners, on me when I do long trad routes. These are my personal. You can pretty much rig about anything you will need to build belays, simple ascending systems, belay escapes or what have you. While I have used the climbing rope to build anchors and such, I prefer to leave it available. By the way, since we are talking about rigging stuff out of thin air, how many of you know how to build the Yosemite 6???? Robert |
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
Jun 28, 2003, 9:58 PM
Post #80 of 109
(5667 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
This can go on adn on LOL, but htereis anohter bowline you could use, and although it is harder to adjust, yo ucan adjust it, and each loop is independent iin case one cuts or a piece pulls.
tie a double bowline on a bight (jsut a reagular bowline using the bight as a single rope in every respect) and then biner off the loop that would be the tail on a single bowline.
I have no data for this idea, but I can't see any reason NOT to use that third loop to clip to another piece of pro. Anyone tried this thing?
Is that that the variation you use, slcliffdiver?
|
|
|
|
|
alpnclmbr1
Jun 29, 2003, 12:41 AM
Post #81 of 109
(5667 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
In reply to: tie a double bowline on a bight (jsut a reagular bowline using the bight as a single rope in every respect) and then biner off the loop that would be the tail on a single bowline.
Lets try not to change the name of knots on a daily basis.
A double bowline on a bight is not the same as a tying a bowline using the bight as a single rope in every respect and there is no end loop to clip into on a double bowline on a bight.
|
|
|
|
|
alpnclmbr1
Jun 29, 2003, 12:51 AM
Post #82 of 109
(5667 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
For anyone that wants a visual refresher course on self rescue
http://www.chauvinguides.com/selfrescue/selfstart.cfm
you might also want to look at their anchoring.pdf file.
and no this site is not idiot proof, But I don't think it would hurt either.
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
Jun 29, 2003, 4:42 AM
Post #83 of 109
(5667 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
Anyone who wants to know more than you'll ever want to about knots can chek out the Ashley Book of knots, where you wil find several double bowlines, some in bights, some not.
I'd still like to know it anyone, well ALMOST anyone, had used the knot I mentioned as a three loop anchor, or knows anything about it as an anchor knot.
|
|
|
|
|
hammer_
Jun 29, 2003, 4:52 AM
Post #84 of 109
(5667 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 3, 2003
Posts: 179
|
Are you talking about the equalizing figure 8 knot. If so it is not that great due to the fact that if the belayer needs to escape the belay he/she needs to rerig the ancor if possible. It also requires a fair bit of rope.
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
Jun 29, 2003, 5:57 AM
Post #85 of 109
(5667 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
NO, was talking about the bowline on a bight with three loops, and using the third loop as part of the anchor system instead of binering ot off.
How about explianing any belay escape issue with either the figure 8 or the atomic clip or the one I mentioned?
If you have enough rope, why not use it?
|
|
|
|
|
alpnclmbr1
Jun 29, 2003, 6:46 AM
Post #86 of 109
(5667 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
to close to a flame
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
Jun 29, 2003, 2:01 PM
Post #87 of 109
(5667 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
Well let's see now, so far, alpine has driven the serious debate into the ditch in favor of his personal attacks.
Now instead of people posting in this thread for all to see, I'm getting PMs about knots probably cause people are afraid the alpine pit bull will latch onto them too.
You have indeed done a great srvice pal. I'm meeting some great folks thanks to you. Too bad interested readers are missing out, but at least you acomplished something.
Now don't you think this is a bit much, with all your cross posting and carping and misinformation?
Oh one more thing, most climbing knots have their origin in sailing knots. The sorry figure 8 with tails on the same side is a knot that climbers thought of for years (and many still think) as just dandy, while sailors and other knot experts have not even classed it as a bend at all. It really gets tiresome correcting all your errors, why don't you just stop?
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Jun 29, 2003, 2:54 PM
Post #88 of 109
(5667 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
Hmmm..... well, as far as using the rope for an anchor. I've only done this on a few occasions. I think it's just cleaner to use the standard old anchor materials like slings and cordelette. there is no question what's what. Especialy if the 'oh shit' happens in the dark. I'm really in favor of the clean and simple method. I like to use the same knots, consistency. I not sure there is anything really wrong with using the rope to build the anchor, I just prefer the methods I use all the time.
I'll have to ponder this some more.
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
Jun 29, 2003, 3:40 PM
Post #89 of 109
(5667 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
Socal,
Ok here is a scenario:
You arrive at the belay, a big tree. Yo uare still tied in, and you tie a double bowline on a bight around the tree and biner off the "tail loop" to the other two loops wiht a locking biner. out a locking biner on both loops around the tree, run the belay line through this biner and back to your belay device. You ar eready ro bring up the second. There are no cordalettes to deal with. Your safety tether is the rope that you are still tied in to. The second comes up. If you are swapping leads, he is already on belay unless you have to move along a ledge or something, but that woudl affect any anchor as well. When he gets to the next pitch belay station, you untie your bowline and since you are stil tied in, you are ready to climb.
At a two bolt belay or a gear belay, you can just use one of those equalizing two loop knots and work out any other details. For more than three anchor points, some will tie multiple adjustable loop knots, but I am not too keen on this idea. Past 3 loops in one knot in the rope, I'd either go to a cordalette, or equalize some of the pro (with appropriate redundancy) before it gets to the loops in the rope.
The main advantages are: Speed Simplicity
The main disadvantage is: If you need all the rope, too bad.
Anyway, on a large number of climbs, the ropes as anchor method has served well, but I'd like to hear what you think of this particular setup.
About the dark, this method was in use at dusk at the tail end of an FA and what we did was, as soon as the second was up, we both tethered directly to a big tree, untied from the rope, broke down the anchor (untied one knot) set up the rappell in the usual way and left.
Of course the headlamps were on the ground!
|
|
|
|
|
alpnclmbr1
Jun 29, 2003, 9:33 PM
Post #90 of 109
(5667 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
dirtineye
Anybody that has been following this knows that you attacked me for asking if you had taken a first aid course and that I am responding to your verbal attack. If you don’t want to fight don’t start one. My chosen response is to call you on your mistakes.
I would love for you to show me where I have made any errors instead of just saying that I have. I like to learn from my mistakes so you would be doing me a favor if you would do that.
|
|
|
|
|
alpnclmbr1
Jun 29, 2003, 9:53 PM
Post #91 of 109
(5667 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
redundant
|
|
|
|
|
alpnclmbr1
Jun 29, 2003, 10:33 PM
Post #92 of 109
(5667 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
Forgive me, but I am stubborn when it comes to someone attacking me in a situation where I can’t confront them face to face. This is the first time this has happened so I have to play it by ear. Just so you know I will probably be leaving next week for a climbing trip. That will give you a little vacation, but I will be back and I have a long memory. You could try apologizing but I don’t think I would accept it.
In reply to: Socal, Ok here is a scenario: You arrive at the belay, a big tree. Yo uare still tied in, and you tie a double bowline on a bight around the tree and biner off the "tail loop" to the other two loops wiht a locking biner. out a locking biner on both loops around the tree, run the belay line through this biner and back to your belay device. You ar eready ro bring up the second. There are no cordalettes to deal with. Your safety tether is the rope that you are still tied in to. The second comes up. If you are swapping leads, he is already on belay unless you have to move along a ledge or something, but that woudl affect any anchor as well. When he gets to the next pitch belay station, you untie your bowline and since you are stil tied in, you are ready to climb. At a two bolt belay or a gear belay, you can just use one of those equalizing two loop knots and work out any other details. For more than three anchor points, some will tie multiple adjustable loop knots, but I am not too keen on this idea. Past 3 loops in one knot in the rope, I'd either go to a cordalette, or equalize some of the pro (with appropriate redundancy) before it gets to the loops in the rope. The main advantages are: Speed Simplicity The main disadvantage is: If you need all the rope, too bad. Anyway, on a large number of climbs, the ropes as anchor method has served well, but I'd like to hear what you think of this particular setup. About the dark, this method was in use at dusk at the tail end of an FA and what we did was, as soon as the second was up, we both tethered directly to a big tree, untied from the rope, broke down the anchor (untied one knot) set up the rappell in the usual way and left. Of course the headlamps were on the ground!
The first thing that comes to mind is that you rapped directly off the tree. That is a no no, it will kill the tree, climbers have known this for a long time and it is frowned upon.
If you set the belay/rappel properly then you would not have to use the rope to tie into the tree. Ever hear of sap? Another good reason not to tie the rope directly to a tree. Plus when you cleaned your bowline(I have used that knot in that situation, when I was out of slings) you wouldn’t have to re-anchor to the tree to set your rap.
There is more, but the internet is not a good place learn how to set up anchors.
|
|
|
|
|
puma
Jun 30, 2003, 1:07 AM
Post #93 of 109
(5667 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 19, 2003
Posts: 59
|
But what about the supermunter? While I was gone I thought maybe somebody would have described it by now. Well, there you go, these are the little things you get when you take a course; from a book, you just get what's in that book. Which may work for some, fine, knowing any self-rescue is better than none at all.
So...instead of making you take my self-rescue course, I'll throw one at you because Paul asked. Ready? Got your pear biner and chunk of rope handy? With your left hand hold up the biner w/ the gate down and to the right (you're looking straight through it). Drop in the rope, there is now the strand close to you(#1) and a strand away from you(#2). Under the biner, slide your right hand between the strands with the palm up, grab the #2 strand, rotate your fist counter-clockwise (or fingers towards you) and drop in that bight. Voila! Munter. Now with your right hand, go around the #2 strand, pinch #1, bring it back around and up to the gate and push it in with your thumb. You should now see a U with a cross in the middle of it. SUPERMUNTER BABY!! Good for lowering big loads.. you know, multiple partners, kegs, coolers, etc.
Lg
|
|
|
|
|
alpnclmbr1
Jun 30, 2003, 2:36 AM
Post #94 of 109
(5667 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
Hey Puma
I tried to follow your directions but couldn't find the U with a cross in it.
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
Jun 30, 2003, 4:21 AM
Post #95 of 109
(5667 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
Puma, that knot is in at least one book I own. I've never bothered to use it, but maybe I will try it next time I have the chance to do a heavy lower.
Your directions work fine for me, once i figured out you mean to go between the strands the first time from right to left, that is, with the strand toward you on the left side of your right hand.
I see the cross. Cute description.
Hey this knot does not seem to reverse easily like the normal munter will. Have you tried taking and giving slack on this knot? I think I will try rappelling with it next chance I get.
There is a good pair of diagrams in the amga manual that show how to tie this hitch (they call it the double italian or double munter hitch)
|
|
|
|
|
alpnclmbr1
Jun 30, 2003, 5:09 AM
Post #96 of 109
(5667 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
Thanks dirtineye, that was helpful
peace
d.
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Jun 30, 2003, 2:45 PM
Post #97 of 109
(5667 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
As far as the anchor thing goes. I just prefer the method of using slings etc. for my anchors. With that said, I just have to try this Mega Munter...
Robert
|
|
|
|
|
the_pirate
Jun 30, 2003, 3:22 PM
Post #98 of 109
(5667 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 3984
|
In reply to: that knot is in at least one book I own. snip There is a good pair of diagrams in the amga manual that show how to tie this hitch (they call it the double italian or double munter hitch)
Hmmm..... What have we here? Something that you found in a book that wasn't taught in your course..... You wag more than a dog's tail.
I like the double munter.... It is leaps and bounds better than that tangle with a biner clipped to it, the mariner's knot.
Oh, and I like how you launch an attack on alpnC because he asked if you had taken any first aid training.... which, btw you still haven't answered. And if you are going to slam someone else for their grammar, you should make damn sure that your grammar and spelling are tip top.
|
|
|
|
|
pico23
Jun 30, 2003, 4:58 PM
Post #99 of 109
(5667 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 14, 2003
Posts: 2378
|
In reply to: Well Poor old pico really doesn't get the idea of the mariner, I think he is confusing it with another knot. But that is one scenario where the mariner would work, if you can tie it, and if you know what the problems to avoid are, and you will not find these problems in the rescue book. You could get the info first hand from a trained professional, but that would be too easy, right? So forge ahead in your ignorance by all means. Been a physics geek, not impressed, sorry. And I know you do it yourselfers are in the majority, our area self and leader rescue class, offered twice a year or so, was canceled for the second time in three months because not enough people signed up.
I try not to get on people for having an opinion. I'll gladly argue with it but there is a point where someones opinion becomes more then that. At this point you've crossed that line and your opinion seems to be a climbing mantra that all must adhere to. I'm really glad you took a self rescue course or two, but that doesn't make you an expert and it certainly doesn't give you the right to critique anyone with some experience. I tie the mariner just fine and I back it up with a biner so there is no way it can untie. I just can't accept your falacious idea that you can only be safe if you learn through a guide. That is rediculous. I'd venture to say beyond the first few years of climbing there is no difference in the accident rate of people who learned with guides and people who learned with partners and books. Accidents happen and if you climb long enough you will probably get hurt or know someone who got hurt, so NO ONE is immune to the dangers regardless of how much training you've had or how many days on the rock you've had.
I just got back from several of the most comitting areas in the lower northeast. Wallface and the Gothics and be assured my partner and I were confident in each others abilities as we'd been practicing both rescue and climbing in increasingly more commited situations over the last several months leading up to grade III trad climbs far from the road. If something went wrong WE WERE the rescue party as there weren't any other climbers on either wall last week, and help was miles away. Please don't preach to me what I know and don't know. I don't know everything and I still have a lot to learn and that is part of what makes climbing so much fun to me, but I'm not a gymbie and I am reasonably competent, and most of all I am tired of your preaching.
|
|
|
|
|
pico23
Jun 30, 2003, 5:38 PM
Post #100 of 109
(5667 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 14, 2003
Posts: 2378
|
In reply to: Ok as far a Robert’s question about First Aid, how many of you proponents of being prepared have actually taken a first aid course? So far it is: socalclimber = WFR the_pirate = EMT I let my wfr expire last year to but I am going to upgrade to an EMT this year dirtintheeye ??? your a proponent of self rescue classes and first aid, yet apparently(implied) you haven’t bothered to take a first aid course? more later d.
CFR (certified first responder) in 1995
AWFA (advanced wilderness first aid) taken in 1994 which covered improvised wilderness first aid techniques
Avalache search and resue taken in 1998 which covered improvised splinting, spinal imobilization and clearing, and other basic wilderness first aid
really any BLS certification is designed to assess and stabilize a victim till more experienced help and evacuation can arrive. I'm still hoping to get my EMT-B sometime in the near future but I've been saying that since my CFR expired years ago. I remember enough to not make a bad situation worse but skills do lapse without continous use and I'd like to get involved in SAR.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
