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kalcario


Jun 30, 2003, 7:10 PM
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* Ok fine, if you want to call a pinkpoint a redpoint, that is fine, do what you want. However, using circular reasoning to redefine other words to support your argument is going to far.
A quickdraw is protection*

OK, draws ARE pro. But so are the bolts! So either way you're pinkpointing because you're clipping fixed gear!!

By this reasoning you'd have to drill and sink the bolts free on the lead to actually redpoint, and even carrying and hanging the draws is "pink" because you're still clipping pro you didn't place. So really there's no such thing as redpointing.

But wait! Somebody just went and did my hardest "redpoint" in rollerskates! Now, even though I hung my own draws, it means NOTHING, because now that route is a grade harder! Now what?


bobd1953


Jun 30, 2003, 7:18 PM
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Therefore by changing the definition of a redpoint we lowered the difficulty for a given grade. And if modern grades take this into account then doing a route while placing the draws means you are climbing a harder grade.

Most of the new hard trad routes are of the headpoint nature! These routes are top-roped, cleaned and gear is set on rappel! So let's talk about how we lower the difficulty of trad-routes.

You seem to missing the point, sport-climbing is about doing fun, safe, hard routes with the protection equation taking out of the picture. No one is trying to hide anything. The bolts are there to see and if you want to pre-placed the quickdraws or placed them on lead, no-one really cares. I know I don't! I would be a little more concern with lowering of the trad-standard in the past decade!


bobd1953


Jun 30, 2003, 7:22 PM
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Also if you want to take this a step farther... Say you are on a trad route and you clip a pin or bolt that has been placed using aid, are you using aid by just clipping into the piece?


kalcario


Jun 30, 2003, 8:38 PM
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Damn it got quiet around here...hmm...c'mon boys, what happened?

damn it's been awhile since I killed a thread that good...sorry if I hurt anybody's feelings...BWAAHAHAHAHAH


alpnclmbr1


Jun 30, 2003, 9:23 PM
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I am not trying to convince anybody of anything. All I was doing is stating a bunch of facts.

Kalcario, your debating skills arenít even close to being challenging. While you were patting yourself on the back I was eating dinner.

When I started climbing there were not a lot of sport climbs. There was plenty of fixed gear. I have never had a problem with clipping fixed gear. Draws are not fixed gear.
I could care less if other people lower their standards.
My hardest sport route send was a pinkpoint. My hardest on-sight was putting the draws in.

As far as a trad route that was not done ground up, I will pass and I also consider it a safety hazard.


kalcario


Jun 30, 2003, 9:31 PM
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* Kalcario, your debating skills arenít even close to being challenging. While you were patting yourself on the back I was eating dinner.*

Crow does take awhile to chew...

So which is it: either the draws ARE pro or they're not? If they are, then the bolts are too and there's no such thing as redpointing.

Start digging.


alpnclmbr1


Jun 30, 2003, 9:38 PM
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Most of the new hard trad routes are of the headpoint nature! These routes are top-roped, cleaned and gear is set on rappel! So let's talk about how we lower the difficulty of trad-routes.
Calling that a trad route is a joke. I would call it a pussy route.
In reply to:
You seem to missing the point, sport-climbing is about doing fun, safe, hard routes with the protection equation taking out of the picture. No one is trying to hide anything. The bolts are there to see and if you want to pre-placed the quickdraws or placed them on lead, no-one really cares. I know I don't! I would be a little more concern with lowering of the trad-standard in the past decade!
The point is that I care and I don't like it when people say there is no difference because there is a difference. Having the draws in or not is not a safety issue. Are you saying that people are risking their lives putting the draws in on a route. It is still a sport route.


alpnclmbr1


Jun 30, 2003, 9:41 PM
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kalcario
re-read my second to last post


kalcario


Jun 30, 2003, 9:51 PM
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I need you to spell it out for me. You're saying that draws are pro and that clipping fixed draws (pro) invalidates the redpoint. But bolts are pro too! (Actually draws aren't pro, bolts are, but I wanna hear you dig yourself outta this one.) So according to your logic (sic) there's no such thing as redpointing because clipping preplaced pro (bolts and draws) is pinkpointing! Is it possible you've been climbing as long as you claim you have and you don't know what the fukk you're talking about? Enlighten us.


bobd1953


Jun 30, 2003, 10:02 PM
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Calling that a trad route is a joke. I would call it a p---- route.

People call them trad-routes all the time. Where have you been the last 5 years?


In reply to:
The point is that I care and I don't like it when people say there is no difference because there is a difference.

To you there is a difference and that's ok. Climb anyway you want. Just don't expect the sport-climbing world to care! Your opinion might change the way you climb, but I doubt that it will effect the way 99.9-per-cent of the sport-climbers in the world, climb!

There is also a difference from when a lot of old trad-routes were first established. Sticky shoes, friends aliens etc, etc... These things have make a lot of old, hard trad-routes a lot easier to climb and protect. Do you do old (pre-1980s) routes with these advancements and would you consider that aid if you did? If you don't believe me wear a pair of EB's and leave all your high-tech camming gear at home on your next hard trad lead and tell me it doesn't make a difference!


kalcario


Jun 30, 2003, 10:03 PM
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*Calling that a trad route is a joke. I would call it a p---- route.*

Oh so now, not only is there no such thing as redpointing, but Hard Grit is puss too! Damn you're just out to change the game tonight, they're gonna have to rewrite the history books to accomodate you...you and Shaq oughta get together and commiserate over what it's like to dominate the whole friggin' league! Forget about the 50th anniversary of Buhl on Nanga Parbat in a few days, we got history IN THE MAKING right here tonight!


bolthappy


Jun 30, 2003, 10:32 PM
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Red is Red and Pink is Pink A redpoint is harder than a pinkpoint so just call it what it is.
A pinkpoint of a trad route is more of a brownpoint it's the $h!t's
Instead of pump'n your ego over numbers just call it what it is.


jt512


Jul 1, 2003, 8:31 AM
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In reply to:
Looks to me like you answered your own question. Sport climbing is about the climbing, not about putting up the draws.


Really, spud? Sorry, but not only was your answer condescending as hell, it was also about as accurate as most of the dis-information you spew here on RC.com. I can't touch you on the latter... you're a master of beta... but on the former I can offer you the same attitude, in spades...

Your rationalization is perfectly understandable, jt512. You make it patently obvious that you are all about the numbers, not the style or spirit of the sport with a moniker centered around a grade... one that was cutting edge about ten years ago, BTW.

In order to avoid flame wars, I'm going to ask all contributers to this forum to restrict their comments to the merits of their arguments. If you want to flame me or anyone else, do it in Community, which is where future posts in this forum containing flames will be moved. Arguments by proponents of both sides of this issue are meritorious, so if you don't want them to end up in the Community Forum, leave out the flames.

In reply to:
To paraphrase, since when do you make up the definition of what sport climbing is?

I never claimed I did. The definition of "redpoint" has evolved, and the currrent definition, which subsumes the former "pinkpoint" ascent, is accepted by the majority of sport climbers.

In reply to:
Seems like it would be a bit more accurate to define sport climbing as a method of ascent in which expansion bolts and hanger take the place of traditional gear in order to ascend otherwise unprotectable faces.

Silly hyperbole.

In reply to:
In reply to:
Almost all redpoints are done with the draws preplaced at all levels of sport climbing. I don't know a single experienced sport climber who would clean his draws after an unsuccessful redpoint attempt, just so he could put them back up again on his next attempt. The notion is ridiculous.

Ah, yes... the old "I don't know of one, so it ain't been or being done" line, so popular among the profile-padding spraylords of online rock...

I'll ignore the last part of that, and reply to the first: All I said is that no one I know would clean his draws just to put them back up on the next run. I did not say that no one in the world does this.

In reply to:
Try this one on for size, then: I've been climbing sport routes for about a decade, bubba.... that experienced enough for ya?

Frankly, no. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression of you is that you are mainly a trad climber who dabbles in sport. Your experience level is besides the point though, really, because I never claimed that somewhere in the world there isn't a sport climber who would take down his draws after an unsuccessful run, just to put them up again on the next run. Incidentally, you never said explicitly that you, yourself, do this.

In reply to:
And, as I so ably demonstrated (read "rammed down your throat") in another thread, I've put up more than my share of lines, as well.

Yes, in two threads now you've mentioned your first ascents. Their relevance to either topic is unclear.

In reply to:
In all of that time, I have never, preplaced the draws for a FA. By rough estimate that'd be 0 preplaced draws for 50+ routes. So much for your conventional tunnel-vision wisdom.

Again, what you do on your FAs (how many of those 50 are sport routes, BTW?) is your business. Climb however you want. Putting the draws up is important to a minority of sport climbers. Like BobD said elsewhere in the thread, the other 99.9% of us don't care.

In reply to:
In reply to:
Since when is climbing on pre-placed draws cheating? Since when do you make up the rules?

I don't make up the rules... some cats far harder than I will ever be took care of that a couple of decades ago. And what they said was, it ain't cheating... it just ain't a redpoint, either.

Back then it wasn't a redpoint; now it is. Times change. Stop living in the past. Better yet, live in the past if you want; stop demanding that the rest of us join you.

In reply to:
In reply to:
Why not at least differentiate between a red and pink point when reporting in the mags?

Because "Sharma Pinkpoints Realization" doesn't really have a ring to it, does it? Doesn't make ya want to run tight out and buy his shoes/rope/hair gel/crash pad/laxative/ ad infinitum... And climbing, these days, especially at the "cutting edge", is all about the PR, baby... glossy shots, sponsorships, and the big $$$.

Redpointing with the draws up is not a practice restricted to elite sport climbers. It is the standard mode of redpointing at all but the very lowest difficulty levels.

In reply to:
In reply to:
Because (1) nobody but 5.8 gumbies cares about whether the draws are pre-placed or not and (2) virtually all hard redpoints are done with the draws pre-placed.

-Jay

To paraphrase: "If you can't climb at a certain arbitrarily chosen grade, then your opinion doesn't count, and we, the ones who can climb above that grade, all agreed long ago to say that the Emperor's new clothes are lovely... so there!"

Ron, here's a lesson from Linguistics 101: The meaning of words is not determined by a democratic process; thus, your opinion on what is or is not a redpoint, in fact, does not count. Definitions evolve. Sport climbs are almost always "redpointed" with the draws up, and the language has evolved to reflect this practice.

In reply to:
And, again, we can all stand; awed, humbled, and more than a little amused at the presumptuous egotism of jt512.

Weak.

In reply to:
Who cares if they preplace the QDs? I care, poser, and a lot of folks whose water you couldn't carry also care, so pull you Teva out of your mouth and step down from your soapbox. I don't put up routes that way, and neither do a lot of other folks who climb 5.8 for a warm-up, in street shoes.

Ignoring yet another personal attack... Again, how you (or anyone) puts up new routes is not even at issue. I find it a little odd that you accuse me of spraying while mentioning your Fifty Very Important First Ascents in the same breath. The fact is that those who care about whether or not the draws are pre-placed represent a small minority of sport climbers. If that weren't the case, we'd all be running around talking about our "pinkpoints" and not our "redpoints." If the distinction is important to you, Ron, then fine, make the distinction. I mean, you climb for yourself, right? ;) Besides, no one is hiding anything. When Jason redpoints his 5.14s we all know the draws are up, just as they probably are when JT512, BodD, Kalcario, and >99% of sport climbers redpoint their projects.

-Jay


alpnclmbr1


Jul 1, 2003, 9:12 AM
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I need you to spell it out for me. You're saying that draws are pro and that clipping fixed draws (pro) invalidates the redpoint. But bolts are pro too! (Actually draws aren't pro, bolts are, but I wanna hear you dig yourself outta this one.) So according to your logic (sic) there's no such thing as redpointing because clipping preplaced pro (bolts and draws) is pinkpointing! Is it possible you've been climbing as long as you claim you have and you don't know what the fukk you're talking about? Enlighten us.
Ok if you can't read, I will spell it out for you.
Draws are pre-placed gear, bolts are fixed gear. This is an accepted distinction in the original definition of a redpoint.


bobd1953


Jul 1, 2003, 9:35 AM
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Try this one on for size, then: I've been climbing sport routes for about a decade, bubba.... that experienced enough for ya? And, as I so ably demonstrated (read "rammed down your throat") in another thread, I've put up more than my share of lines, as well. In all of that time, I have never, preplaced the draws for a FA. By rough estimate that'd be 0 preplaced draws for 50+ routes. So much for your conventional tunnel-vision wisdom.

I been climbing sport a little longer than ten years and done more than 50 new routes and I am not ramming anything down anyone throat! Climb whatever way want, that really what it comes down to. You can climb upside down it you perfer and if you are enjoying your self, so be it!

So on your 50 new sport route, you top-rope the route first on anchors that were placed on aid and then you clean it on aid. Then you place the bolts on aid. Then you might give it a run and fall and hang on aid to get the moves dial! And you think leaving the draws on is cheating! I don't get it!


kalcario


Jul 1, 2003, 9:42 AM
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*Draws are pre-placed gear, bolts are fixed gear. This is an accepted distinction in the original definition of a redpoint.*

So according to your brilliant logic, if the draws are fixed too, with chains or hardware-store screwlinks for example, then it's a redpoint because the draws are fixed, just like the bolts. But if they're just normal draws that you or somebody else left on there, it's a pinkpoint.

The original definition was bottom to top without weighting the gear and had nothing to do with how the gear got there. Clintonesque word-gerrymandering and quibbling over semantics is ALWAYS the sign of a weak argument. Not that I expected anything else, you did the best you could considering the hole you dug yourself into.


alpnclmbr1


Jul 1, 2003, 9:48 AM
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Calling that a trad route is a joke. I would call it a p---- route.

People call them trad-routes all the time. Where have you been the last 5 years?

Climbing in Joshua tree, Indian creek, the Needles, Tuolumne, the valley, the tower, RMNP, Paradise forks, red river gorge. If you rap pre-placed gear on a trad route and claimed to have sent the route at any of these places people would laugh in your face.

In reply to:
The point is that I care and I don't like it when people say there is no difference because there is a difference.

To you there is a difference and that's ok. Climb anyway you want. Just don't expect the sport-climbing world to care! Your opinion might change the way you climb, but I doubt that it will effect the way 99.9-per-cent of the sport-climbers in the world, climb!

It is only people that have ego problems that say that there is not a difficulty difference between doing a route with the draws in and with the draws not in. What you choose to call it does not matter to me.

There is also a difference from when a lot of old trad-routes were first established. Sticky shoes, friends aliens etc, etc... These things have make a lot of old, hard trad-routes a lot easier to climb and protect. Do you do old (pre-1980s) routes with these advancements and would you consider that aid if you did? If you don't believe me wear a pair of EB's and leave all your high-tech camming gear at home on your next hard trad lead and tell me it doesn't make a difference!
My first pair of shoes were EB's, I traded them 2 months later for a pair of Pa's?? a while later I switched to fires and never looked back. Other then that I don't understand your argument. I don't equate advances in equipment to a degradation of style. I hangdog sport routes now, for my first four years of climbing I didnít. But that is as far as I am willing to go.

kalcario
lame tactic
I was speaking in terms of the places I actually climb at.(see above)


tradmanclimbs


Jul 1, 2003, 9:58 AM
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Kalciro Origionaly way back when it was considered poor form to claim a redpoint with the draws in place. In the last 10 years or so the practice has evolved to the point were it is considered standard to leave them in place. This probobly happened simply because it is a pain to take them off and then put em back up again. Just because it is standard procedure dosen't change the fact that it does make the climb easier. If someone were to onsite a 5.14 while putting up the draws that would be newsworthy in my opinion.


kalcario


Jul 1, 2003, 9:58 AM
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*lame tactic
I was speaking in terms of the places I actually climb at.(see above)*

Those are all trad crags except for RRG (hundreds of fixed draws at the Motherlode, btw). So now you're saying you were speaking all this time about trad climbing? No wonder it all sounded like total BS! Since when did the original definition of redpointing have anything to do with trad climbing?


alpnclmbr1


Jul 1, 2003, 9:59 AM
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*Draws are pre-placed gear, bolts are fixed gear. This is an accepted distinction in the original definition of a redpoint.*

So according to your brilliant logic, if the draws are fixed too, with chains or hardware-store screwlinks for example, then it's a redpoint because the draws are fixed, just like the bolts. But if they're just normal draws that you or somebody else left on there, it's a pinkpoint.

The original definition was bottom to top without weighting the gear and had nothing to do with how the gear got there. Clintonesque word-gerrymandering and quibbling over semantics is ALWAYS the sign of a weak argument. Not that I expected anything else, you did the best you could considering the hole you dug yourself into.

Nice try, the reason people use rapides is so that gumbies won't steal them. If a route has perma draws on it I don't worry about it and appreciate the convenience.
"word-gerrymandering and quibbling over semantics" nice description of what sport climbers did to the definition of a redpoint. Weak ego's that couldn't deal with calling it a pinkpoint because it threatened their masculinity.


bobd1953


Jul 1, 2003, 10:02 AM
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My first pair of shoes were EB's, I traded them 2 months later for a pair of Pa's?? a while later I switched to fires and never looked back. Other then that I don't understand your argument. I don't equate advances in equipment to a degradation of style. I hangdog sport routes now, for my first four years of climbing I didnít. But that is as far as I am willing to go.

You said I seven times in the above quote! Climb anyway you want, just don't tell the rest of us what is right or wrong! Your opinion and your climbing style is important to you and maybe a few other people. Are you having fun when you climb? Are you meeting nice people when you go climbing? Do you feel good after a day of climbing? These are the things you really should ask yourself, not if someone pinkpoint or redpointed a route.


alpnclmbr1


Jul 1, 2003, 10:04 AM
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*lame tactic
I was speaking in terms of the places I actually climb at.(see above)*

Those are all trad crags except for RRG (hundreds of fixed draws at the Motherlode, btw). So now you're saying you were speaking all this time about trad climbing? No wonder it all sounded like total BS! Since when did the original definition of redpointing have anything to do with trad climbing?

Now your getting tiresome. This comment was directed at your comment about gritstone and bob's trad questions and you know it.


bobd1953


Jul 1, 2003, 10:09 AM
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In reply to:
The point is that I care and I don't like it when people say there is no difference because there is a difference.
It is only people that have ego problems that say that there is not a difficulty difference between doing a route with the draws in and with the draws not in. What you choose to call it does not matter to me.

Alpmclmbr1: Do you find the above two statements you made a little conflicting???


roughster


Jul 1, 2003, 10:15 AM
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This whole thread is a joke. For those of us who climb in reality (not just think about climbing behind a computer screen), the distinction between red and pink point has long been dropped.

Preplaced protection is exactly that. Whether or not a draw is on the bolt or not, the protection is preplaced therefore, arguing about a pink or red point is mute.

All lead ascents that start at the bottom of a sport route and only have at max 2 bolts stick clipped (assuming there are more than 2 bolts on the route :lol: ) that clip the rope through the preplaced protection the rest on the way up without placing any body weight on the rope and end in clipping the anchors is a successful redpoint.

This is not an opinion, this is fact as is represented by thousands of ascents every year at every sport crag across the world

Those who are arguing in favor of pink pointing in terms of sport climbing need to get outside and do some climbing. Your definitions need to be updated to the standard version represented in the 2003 Version of the Sport Climbing Lexicon :lol:


kalcario


Jul 1, 2003, 10:17 AM
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Re: Red Point VS Pink Point [In reply to]
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*Just because it is standard procedure dosen't change the fact that it does make the climb easier.*

No, it makes what you have to do to do the climb easier. All kinds of extraneous factors (weather, approach, health) can affect the difficulty, does that mean we should rate climbs easier or harder because it was humid that day or because I had a runny nose?

Here's where we diverge. Prehung draws do not make the climb itself any easier, and hanging them does not make the climb itself any harder. Sport routes are rated for move difficulty and pump factor, and nothing else. TRAD route grades factor in the difficulty of placing pro. The sport route would be harder if I went up there in rollerskates, too, or if all the biners were locking screw-gates that had to be screwed and unscrewed for every clip. Of course it's harder to hang the draws, it's always easier to clip preplaced gear. But the difficulty of the route itself is not affected, the climb remains the same. And THAT'S what the rating is based on, not the clipping motion.

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Forums : Climbing Disciplines : Sport Climbing

 


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