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mike_ok
Jul 8, 2003, 8:30 PM
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Very good post. Yes, the Europeans rap off of one bolt often, but its a huge thick bolt with a smooth finish for the rope.
As to being scared of rapping off a bolt: as has been said many times, if you'd trust to slam your weight onto the thing during a fall, you're being a bit silly to say you wouldn't rap off it. Tug the thing a few times before weighting it; its not hard to see if its going to move.
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evoltobmilc
Jul 8, 2003, 8:49 PM
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Well,
I'd love to know where you've been climbing in Europe, cause I sure can't find those areas with the HUGE eyebolts at the top like you're describing. Sure, I've seen a few, but I've also seen a few back at home in Colorado (First Flatiron, Bastile Crack- for example.) but far and away the most common anchor at the top of these "sport" climbs is a single "staple" bolt. It's glued in, has a diameter of about, eh, i'd say 5 or 6 mm (between 1/4" and 3/8") and has two holes drilled in the rock for the one "staple." I hate it.
Sport climbing is neither.
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jsac11
Jul 8, 2003, 9:02 PM
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Randall Grandstaff died by doing this on The Great Red Book in Red rock. Just leave a f@$&in' biner. Your life is worth more than five bucks. If you back off of a climb you should leave something. Randy was not a newbie, he had put up over a hundred routes in Red Rocks and had been climbing for over twenty years and stilled died using this method. Please be careful and do not try this, just use a biner and spend 5 bucks next time you go to the climbing shop.
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 8, 2003, 9:21 PM
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I learned that So called Texas rope trick from the old tower repair dude in Custer State park SD. I have only used it a few times as a novelty. I have pleanty of old leaver biners. As for rapping off a single modern 3/8th and larger bolt You are totalyand pointlessly parinoide if you can't handle that. A well placed 3/8th X3" rawl or fixe SS bolt has at least a5,000 lb shear and pull strength. The freaking hanger is 40kn. The Locking biner that you use to attach your belay device may only be 23 or 24 kn. Bolts in soft sandstone or old rusty bolts are suspect but new bolts in solid rock that arn't visibly poorly placed are as safe as anything you will ever rap from. It is a good idea to tape the gate of your leaver biner shut though. I would really like to witness the pucker factor that some of you whimps would experience rapping off of V threads in crappy ice :roll:
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cracklover
Jul 8, 2003, 9:33 PM
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In reply to: Randall Grandstaff died by doing this on The Great Red Book in Red rock. Just leave a f@$&in' biner. Your life is worth more than five bucks. If you back off of a climb you should leave something. Randy was not a newbie, he had put up over a hundred routes in Red Rocks and had been climbing for over twenty years and stilled died using this method. Please be careful and do not try this, just use a biner and spend 5 bucks next time you go to the climbing shop.
GO
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cricket
Jul 8, 2003, 9:33 PM
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Hey Jay, I don't know what the f*ck I am talking about - that's why I am here to get other's opinions - just as some are more comfortable TRing with three anchors, two seem good to me, but one for rappelling scares me.
RRRADAM said:
In reply to: Sounds like you are rapping off of bolts by putting your rope through them. If these are not RAP BOLTS, you are going to ruin your rope. RAP BOLTS are much thicker than normal bolts, to allow more surface area in contact with the rope. Normal bolts can cut into it.
I have only done this once, and want to be able to do this again. In the areas that I climb there are just common bolts, not a rap bolt as you mentioned. Not being aware of the 'surface area' issue, I will be more inclined on setting up a system that has some redundacy. Thanks.
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ricardol
Jul 8, 2003, 9:57 PM
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pretty cool trick in a pinch ..
.. but then again bail slings are so cheap -- why futz around with some trick ..
.. i think the simpler the system - the safer it is..
5 feet of 1" webbing is about $1.50 ..
-- i'd rather leave behind $1.50 of gear than try fancy tricks to remove a sling
-- ricardo
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hroldan
Jul 8, 2003, 10:14 PM
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Of course you can but as a friend (experienced climber) told me:
Don't trust your life to one single piece of gear :wink:
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jipstyle
Jul 8, 2003, 10:43 PM
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In reply to: I've fallen on a bolt, so in a pinch why not rap on one. :?:
When you fall on a bolt, say X, of a climb ... and it blows ... then you get caught by bolt X-1.
If you are rappeling on a bolt, say X, of a climb ... and it blows ... you crater.
:) BIG difference, IMO
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jipstyle
Jul 8, 2003, 10:45 PM
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[quote="baalzimon"]In reply to: If I'm stuck in the middle of a wall, how do I get down with a redundant rappell anchor?
Lower yourself to the best piece of protection below the one from which you are rapping and clip it (usually with a booty-biner). Haul your ass back up, and set up your rap ... if it blows, the lower piece gets a chance to catch you.
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baalzimon
Jul 8, 2003, 10:46 PM
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how do you suppose one gets to bolt X and rappels without first clipping into bolt X-1?
I stated earlier that I was clipped in to every draw on all of bolts below the one I rapped off of. How does anyone ever get to the middle of a wall without doing so, unless they are free soloing?
When I got to the lower bolt, I did clean my draw. it would not have been a backup anyway because it was so far below my rap bolt that I would have decked. anyway, I don't want to leave anything in the bolt that might screw up another climber.
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hishopper
Jul 8, 2003, 11:25 PM
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FYI - this was copped from Arborists (who copped the idea of climbing the rope instead of the tree from climbers, alpinists and cavers).
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champton
Jul 9, 2003, 1:22 AM
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Can I ask... what type of bolt? Eye-bolt, U-bolt or dynabolt? If it was a dynabolt then why on earth would you rap of it using webbing! Assuming it was normal tube webbing for standard slings it can cut/rip very easily. If you were rapping off an eye or U bolt then I might start to understand any logic for rapping off a single bolt. Was lowering off, going to the top and then rapping to get your gear an option?
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alpnclmbr1
Jul 9, 2003, 2:02 AM
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Downjump until your not going to die if the bolt fails. The farthest off the ground you can do the texas rope trick(that is a new name by me) with a 60 meter rope is 20 meters off the ground. I won’t do it if I am more then 10 meters off the ground. If I am higher then that and can’t downjump then I just leave two bail biners and call it a day.
I have never seen or heard of someone leaving a backup biner below a texas sling rig. The climbing mag was probably just listening to a paranoid lawyer.
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jt512
Jul 9, 2003, 3:41 AM
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In reply to: Hey Jay, I don't know what the f*ck I am talking about - that's why I am here to get other's opinions - just as some are more comfortable TRing with three anchors, two seem good to me, but one for rappelling scares me.
Try writing coherently.
In reply to: I have only done this once, and want to be able to do this again. In the areas that I climb there are just common bolts, not a rap bolt as you mentioned. Not being aware of the 'surface area' issue, I will be more inclined on setting up a system that has some redundacy. Thanks.
You still aren't making a damn bit of sense.
-Jay
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baywolf
Jul 9, 2003, 4:05 AM
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You know why I dont like rc.com... because every time there is a tech-tip or advice given about riggin, someone always says that a "newbie" is going to read this, misunderstand it and get killed. If thats how evolution is working these days then so be it. I know that when I try a new technique I test it before using it a hundred feet up. Use some common sense.
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climbalon
Jul 9, 2003, 4:19 AM
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In reply to: how do you suppose one gets to bolt X and rappels without first clipping into bolt X-1? I stated earlier that I was clipped in to every draw on all of bolts below the one I rapped off of. How does anyone ever get to the middle of a wall without doing so, unless they are free soloing? When I got to the lower bolt, I did clean my draw. it would not have been a backup anyway because it was so far below my rap bolt that I would have decked. anyway, I don't want to leave anything in the bolt that might screw up another climber.
When you rappel, your off belay my man, all of the weight is on the one bolt, so if it fails you will deck and your fancy quickdraws wont help you. Plus no one minds getting booty of a route, leave it, be safe, and make someones day.
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cricket
Jul 9, 2003, 2:43 PM
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Listen here Jay, I am just trying to get some advice here on how to make rappelling a bit safer by trying to have some safe redundancy. I don't mind being flamed if I deserve it, but come on. You say you have been climbing since 1985 - you probably don't have too many friends.
Back on topic:
Let's say that you sport climb and want to rappel from the top. There are two anchor bolts (common, not rappel or thicker ones) and both look good. You have two threaded biners with you in which you can use for the bolts, but...how far apart can these two bolts be to do their job and not have too much horizontal force? And if they are too close together, can this prevent one from pulling the rope easily if there are no other obstructions.
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rwaltermyer
Jul 9, 2003, 2:56 PM
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In reply to: You know why I dont like rc.com... because every time there is a tech-tip or advice given about riggin, someone always says that a "newbie" is going to read this, misunderstand it and get killed. If thats how evolution is working these days then so be it. I know that when I try a new technique I test it before using it a hundred feet up. Use some common sense.
Off subject, yes. But let me say, that I'd rather annoy you, then have to read about "that guy" who died thanx to RC.com.
stay safe.
randy
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 10, 2003, 9:15 PM
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JT 512 wrote
I disagree. Rapping off a single bolt should worry you plenty. If you aren't scared doing this, you're an idiot.
Get A Grip guy's. Every time you get spanked on a sport climb and lower off to rest and send your rope gun girlfriend up there to get that rope up to the chains for you, you are in effect rapping off a single bolt. Modern sportclimbing bolts are really freaking good. If it is an old rusty bolt or crappy rock then it is good to be scared but with solid rock and modern bolts it is safe to rap from a single bolt. I would not recomend the fancy rope trick though. Better to just leave a brand spanking new draw or locking biner for me to clean :D
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jt512
Jul 10, 2003, 9:23 PM
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In reply to: JT 512 wrote I disagree. Rapping off a single bolt should worry you plenty. If you aren't scared doing this, you're an idiot. Get A Grip guy's. Every time you get spanked on a sport climb and lower off to rest and send your rope gun girlfriend up there to get that rope up to the chains for you, you are in effect rapping off a single bolt.
Really. And here I was thinking that the next bolt down was backing me up.
-Jay
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benpullin
Jul 10, 2003, 10:18 PM
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Cricket -- the ideal angle from a weight to an anchor point so that each is holds a minimum of the weight is 20 degrees or less (so I have read and been taught in technical rescue courses). However, this is not always possible since sport rap anchors are usually right next to each other.
But if you consider that a modern 5-piece expansion bolt can hold roughly 5000 pounds, your average sub-200 pound climber has little to worry about rapping off two of them. The bolts will not fail. The rock just might...
I personally have yet to experience problems pulling a rope through a rap anchor in absence of other obstructions, though it is easier with thin ropes.
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whitefingers
Jul 10, 2003, 10:31 PM
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Would this be the appropriate forum to ask how many people have actually blown out an anchor? Just curious.
:?:
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tenn_dawg
Jul 10, 2003, 10:56 PM
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HERE is something you might find interesting when having to lower and clean off a single bolt while bailing. It's safer than just hoping the bolt holds. I call it the Tennessee Tram.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=34996
Travis
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