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beta
Jan 21, 2002, 12:32 AM
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Registered: Oct 17, 2001
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Thanks Stu, and Pete as well, You have again restored my faith in being able to identify immediately, the lowest common denonimater in the American public. I have always been of the opinion that there is a reason there are directions on bottles of shampoo, some people need them. WAKE UP Whew!!!! note to myself:, make sure Pete or Stu are belaying me. beta (let the Q rating slide begin) [ This Message was edited by: beta on 2002-01-21 15:05 ]
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bmsullivan
Jan 21, 2002, 1:12 AM
Post #27 of 75
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Registered: Aug 23, 2001
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Gravity... I am in a similar situation as yourself. The only way through it is to practice. I trust my gear to hold me on aid, because I have done it. I trust my gear to hold 10 footers, because I have taken them. Do I trust my gear like rrrAdam to hold a 40+? No, probably because I haven't taken one. Any way, the point I am making is that it is all a process that is learned by instruction(friends/teacher/mentor/books) and experience. One of the posters mentioned aiding on gear. That is an excellent way to learn to trust your placements. Back when I took my lead class they actually had us do that for a whole day. The trust does come with time. Just don't rush it. Enjoy the process. Climb safe Brian
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beyond_gravity
Jan 21, 2002, 2:03 AM
Post #28 of 75
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Brain, thanks for the quailty answer! that's the only answer that I totally understand. now for the rest of you, answer this, Why will you belay off two blots, but not two pices of gear? huh! tell that to the sport climbers of tomorrow! tell that to the old skool trad climbers of yosemite! Tell that to our friends in Afganistan!
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addiroids
Jan 22, 2002, 12:23 AM
Post #29 of 75
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Registered: Oct 11, 2001
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We would belay off 2 bolts because usually that's all you get. If there were three, we would belay off all 3. Since with TRAD climbing, there is usually a crack to belay in, we place 3 or more bomber pieces to build the anchor. That just makes us that much more smarter than sport climbers. TRADitionally yours, Addiroids
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ravens_wing_jim
Jan 22, 2002, 4:46 AM
Post #30 of 75
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Dear, Beyond Gravity: You tradded a sport route ?? How the hell did ya do that? Where did ya place pro? Hence: Sport=face climbing. Trad=crack climbing. or was it a crack climb that some moron bolted? Also, since I lead mostly sport(because I'm better at face then crack), I can tell you that placing all your faith in bolts is unwise, as in taking that whipper, only to jug yourself back up to that bolt only to see that the damn thing is now loose!!! Dude, bolts break out of rock more often than you might think. You have no Idea who placed it, or how many whippers its held.
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mikedano
Jan 23, 2002, 10:10 PM
Post #31 of 75
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Registered: Dec 19, 2001
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I try to examine bolts I clip when sport climbing (when I can), and I have found NUMEROUS bolts that are almost all the way unscrewed, so that the hanger is on by only a few threads. Scary. Makes me want to put in a big nut.
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beyond_gravity
Jan 23, 2002, 10:25 PM
Post #32 of 75
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hmm, i'm hering all these horror storys about bolts now! i've only see one, rusted up (home made) bolt that was loose. I guess up here in Canada the acess fund gets people that know what there doing to bolt. anyhow, when I traded the sport climb, it was acculey an indoor climb with some cracks in it that I placed nuts in. Thanks for the responces guys!
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climb512
Jan 23, 2002, 10:34 PM
Post #33 of 75
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Registered: May 19, 2001
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Always trust my gear, wouldnt climb otherwise. Not into death at this time. There are some shaky placements, but always get another piece in asap.Plus I had/have a great teacher and his stuff is always bomber.Always critiques and offers advice when he follows and the same with me. Learn from someone good and then trust your gear and placements. Like rradams said, rather trust my pro than anothers bolt. Good advice.
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gator211
Jan 23, 2002, 10:43 PM
Post #34 of 75
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Registered: Mar 21, 2001
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I don't think you should be trad climbing if you can't have faith in your placements or gear. What is the difference between that and free soloing? I just make sure I'm cool with the route, before I get on it. If you can't be sure of your placements, don't Trad climb. Climb Safe
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toobigtoclimb
Jan 23, 2002, 11:17 PM
Post #35 of 75
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Registered: Dec 14, 2001
Posts: 426
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I totally trust trad gear. Otherwise I wouldn't be climbing. You should see what we used to use in the old days. We tied off shrubs, roots, bushes and used chockstones (rocks) slung with webbing, knots in webbing in a crack - the whole time climbing on gold line (static nylon) rope attached to a swami belt (no harnesses). I think that climbers today are a little spoiled by technology. The shear (no pun intended) physics of stoppers, hexes, cams, etc. are able to stop any fall that you could possibly generate. More important is knowing how to place gear and evaluate the quality of rock. Trad climbing has relatively few accidents compared to many other sports like High School Football, etc. Learn how to place gear properly and have absolute faith in your placements.
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beyond_gravity
Jan 24, 2002, 10:35 PM
Post #36 of 75
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Ok, lets get one thing here stright. Lots of people are telling me that if I dont have 100% in my placements, even when i'm first starting, I shouldn't trad climb. This is just like telling someone if they dont feel totally comtorble leaning back in there harness 50 feet off the deck the first time they go climbing, they should quite climbing right away. And my rack only consists of nuts and a few hexs, so i'm not talking about cams here! Forget it, I know that people trust there gear now, but I need not any further lecturing about me and my no-faith-in-my-placements ways. I mean, i still feel safer on gear then free-soloing, but i'm not gonna whip like I would on a bolt.
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ravens_wing_jim
Jan 24, 2002, 11:19 PM
Post #37 of 75
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Registered: Dec 23, 2001
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Dude...relax.
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nessy
Jan 24, 2002, 11:33 PM
Post #38 of 75
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Registered: Jan 16, 2002
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i would like to add my own thoughts to this. climbing is dangerous, that is what makes it fun. if you don't like that sit in front of your computer all day. no one likes to whip, until you do and don't die and then for the rest of the day you feel like f---ing superman. climbing is as much or more a mental game then a physical one and sport climbers and gym rats seem to forget that. i trust myself more then anything and feel safer when i am climbing then i do lowering of even a bolt. trust your own judgement and know your limits and you will be fine.
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kennoyce
Jan 25, 2002, 1:10 AM
Post #39 of 75
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Registered: Mar 6, 2001
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beyond gravity i say that it is tatally cool to not trust trad gear at first. i personally trust trad gear because i have trad climed for several years, and have taken plenty of falls on gear, but i shure as hell know that i was scared of my gear when i first started trading. but it was the same when i started sport climbing. i was damn scared of taking a fall on a bolt when I first started climbing. i say it just takes time to learn to trust your gear.
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polarwid
Jan 25, 2002, 10:30 PM
Post #40 of 75
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Registered: Nov 22, 2001
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Hey B_G: Your little rack of stoppers and hexes is the safest one there is. The failure strength of those pieces of pro is much higher than any active camming device they have come out with. The rock would break before a properly placed chock would. Not to say that all trad gear placed is bombproof but you generally can get more than a few solid placements on most trad routes. Don't worry about cams until you have learned to place those chocks, then you will have a cam for when nothing else will work. I have climbed TRAD my whole life...unless you call trusting the drilled angles of the Garden of the Gods in CO sport climbing...sporty maybe but definately more like trad. Learn to place what you have and use others experience to guide and help you.
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beyond_gravity
Feb 2, 2002, 9:39 PM
Post #41 of 75
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Registered: Jan 2, 2002
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dont dis my rack
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bubbala
Feb 2, 2002, 11:51 PM
Post #42 of 75
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Registered: Dec 15, 2001
Posts: 10
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Don't trust the gear-trust yourself and your placement. Some of the new camming devices are super strong, but start with nuts and hexes to learn the finer points. Like I said, it all depends on placement. As far as putting bolts next to a protectable crack, don't do it. If someone like me sees you, you'll probably get popped upside your head and have your gear confiscated. Seriously, that's bad form. Keep that sort of BS in a gym. Any climbing, trad in particular, is not ment to be done in a controlled enviroment. Half the fun of doing it is looking at a thin crack that hasn't been modified and sending it. Not every climb is for every climber. That's why we have sport climbing. So trust your gear, learn your placements, and know your limits. Brian
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beyond_gravity
Feb 7, 2002, 11:28 PM
Post #43 of 75
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Registered: Jan 2, 2002
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the only placement i'm gonna trust is putting a sling on your momma's penis
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crackaddict
Feb 13, 2002, 4:35 AM
Post #44 of 75
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Registered: Jun 24, 2000
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Okay guys. Any thing will fail if it is placed improperly and marginal. Bolts, gear, etc. Dont' trust any of it! just know the more that is in the rock the better chance you have at living. Yes bolts fail. You would probably freak out if you saw how different a bolt looks after it has been in the rock for a while. You've all seen those old rusty bolts. Remember just like all gear nothing last for ever.
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leadingedge
Feb 16, 2002, 3:53 PM
Post #45 of 75
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Registered: Jan 18, 2002
Posts: 185
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Yes, if it is mine or its not very old.
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astone
Feb 18, 2002, 8:23 AM
Post #46 of 75
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Registered: Feb 17, 2002
Posts: 183
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Objectively, if you don't trust your gear, then why aren't you soloing. Oh, and to that clown that wants to bolt cracks, I'm glad you're too much of a pu--- to make the approach to most of my favorite climbs. Freeze and Burn!
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blimpdriver
Mar 3, 2002, 10:34 AM
Post #47 of 75
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Registered: Dec 23, 2001
Posts: 83
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to trust your gear man you need to take a fall on your placements. Try this. Pick a route that you can set up a toprope while you lead it. half way up or so fall on your pro. One of two things will happen, you will see that your placement was good, (from a short fall that is) or your toprope will save you. try it man it builds up your confidence.
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apollodorus
Mar 3, 2002, 10:51 AM
Post #48 of 75
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Registered: Feb 18, 2002
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Dr. Pete: do you advocate using a hand drill to improve established trad classics, or a power drill in the middle of the night using night vision goggles? The latter would be a good way to avoid the headlamp which rangers could see. I'm thinking that the DNB on Middle Cathedral needs ALOT of improvement. It's kinda dangerous now, like you say. I have 40+ lbs of bolts and hangars in my basement. It'd be a start.
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beyond_gravity
Mar 10, 2002, 8:05 PM
Post #49 of 75
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dudes, I Didnt bolt a trad line. It was a bolted climb in the gym that I placed gear on dudes. (yes, you can trad at my gym) Rock On, Jeremy
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radistrad
Mar 10, 2002, 8:17 PM
Post #50 of 75
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Registered: Feb 25, 2002
Posts: 800
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Gravity, I think some of these guys are pulling your rope a bit. Some questions you have. Why trust two bolts but not two self placed pieces? Hmmm, a good question. To start I would use just two bolts or two placements (two placements if there is no upward pull), but I would prefer 3 bolts or three placements. Bolts are multidirectional, most placed pro is not, so the third piece in my belay set up is a placement that will hold an upward pull(making my belay multidirectional). I usually set 4 pieces for a belay, the first and best placement I tie my self into with a figure 8 on a bight. The other 3 I use a rabbit runner or cord-a-lett to equalize, with one of the three being placed for an upward pull (assuming I am climbing mulitpitch and my leader may take a lead fall, for top rope or the last pitch you only have to catch a downward pull on the anchor). Does this help? Do I trust my gear, that is a question with various answers. The answer is Yes, I do trust my gear. But the variation is how good is the piece I set? If I set a manky nut and it was my only piece for the last 15', I will not want to fall and won't trust it. If that same placement is a solid nut, I'll trust it 100%. So why would I place a manky nut? Probably because there was no better placement and I needed a "mental" nut. Will I run out a manky nut? Only if I have too. I dont recommend routes that have bad pro or have good pro but are run out.. all the same practice where you are not likely to fall, learn placements, if the nut is the right size but does not fit well, try flipping it over it may fit better. As you climb more and practice it will all fall into place, and you will trust your gear. Havent seen many manky bolts? Come visit Yosemite, Pinnacles National Monument. I'll show you some bolts that wont hold a fall, but I bet you still clip 'em.
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