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achilles
Mar 11, 2002, 8:37 AM
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Trust your trad gear! Its no use buying cool gear and hanging it from your harness and then you never use it.
Climb within your limits initially and take the extra time to place your pro properly. If possible spend a time 2nding so you can develop a feel from your climbing partner of where and how placements should be made.
Sometimes there is no place to make placements, but you cannot let that defeat you. Just stick to trad, but NEVER place bolts in unsullied rock. It kills the character of the place.
Rock-a-bye!
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apollodorus
Mar 11, 2002, 10:17 AM
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Pat Reilly said it best when he coached the Lakers: Three Piece.
Go for the redundancy. If you trust your life to one piece (even a shiny/new 3/8" rawl six-piece bolt), you are asking for trouble. The only single piece you should trust is the rope (a newish one, by the way.)
As far as trusting gear placed on lead goes, lizzen tooda mazda: "Weak and pathetic, even by Valley standards, I went to lead Reed's Direct. Had all the gear. Lots. I started up fine, placing gear where nobody else had been able to place gear before. A true master of the C3 placement on a free lead. And guess what? I burned out with one piece every 10 feet below me. I had to run the last 40 feet unprotected, or suffer the ignomity of falling before the crowd that had gathered to glean beta from my pathetic performance."
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boms
Mar 11, 2002, 11:32 AM
Post #53 of 75
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if you don't trust trad why not just solo it instead and save your self some weight? : )
i would believe that trad can be safe, would you prefer to trust a bomber #9 rock placement that your second will spend a 1/2 hour trying to remove, or a five year old bolt which you don't know the condition of past what you can see.
the only problem with trad is the condition of the rock, i don't know that much about the states but places like swanage in the uk (sea cliffs) can be quite dangerous as the rock is in some areas has been known to break appart, but where the rock is solid and the placement is good, i would trust it,
plus doing sport all time is boring, bricking yourself 80ft from the ground 20ft from your last runner, smearing with both feet your only hold is a dodgy pinch, and your trying to weasel in a #2, nothing gets the blood racing like that does.
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rrrADAM
Mar 14, 2002, 12:28 AM
Post #54 of 75
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What roof was that ???
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graniteboy
Mar 14, 2002, 12:39 AM
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Here's the SOLUTION for this "trusting gear" issue.
You should ALWAYS trust MY gear, (unless I tell you not to because it's crappy).
You should NEVER trust YOUR GEAR (unless I tell you it's GOOD. My gear services can be commissioned at an hourly rate of 25$, plus expenses, with a minimum of 5 hours.
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mikec
Jul 11, 2002, 10:18 PM
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I have fallen many times on my gear. It usually holds. I trust it, if it is a good solid placement.
If I have a question about the crux ahead and I don't think my gear will hold I like to stack my gear if I can.
I guess you can never reach your full potential if you don't believe in your equipment.
Its just like working a muscle. If you don't push your self to failure, you will never get better.
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ergophobe
Jul 12, 2002, 1:44 AM
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I've fallen on RPs and had them hold, and I've also fallen on a "bomber" piece and had it rip.
Beyond_Gravity, to answer a few of your questions.
1. Yes, I trust trad gear.
2. I never trust one piece. My motto is "Two pieces between you and disaster" (and that's a *minimum*, not a rule of thumb). This is one of the reasons I don't like sport climbing - often you have hard moves before the second clip and, if the bolt blows, you will deck. If I'm leading a runout route, I often place two pieces,then run it out, then place two pieces if it all possible. Three if I don't like the two.
3. I trust a fantastic stopper better than any bolt or fixed piton. I can't tell how the fixed gear was placed, what condition it's in internally. I've had a "new" looking piton break right off in my hand because it was rusted inside the crack.
4. If you're just starting out, trust your *system*, but no individual piece of gear. If you're not sure about your gear, make sure you have 3-4 pieces between you and disaster (that means not just the ground, but ledges, whatever).
5. The only way to get comfortable with any system, be it TR or trad lead, is to take some falls. Go find a steep, clean route that sucks up gear and is a bit too hard for you. Throw in 3, 4, 5 pieces that look excellent and gun for the crux. If the first two pop, you need to work on your gear. You could even have one of the pieces be a toprope backup tied to those bolts you like so much. Just make sure it's tied to *two* bolts.
6. You're right, climbing is dangerous. Good and conscientious climbers die. Stupid climbers die. Be careful!
Tom
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lostangel
Jul 12, 2002, 1:54 AM
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Like clymber saies when gear falls out
" it would have held if I fell"
You gotta trust your gear, otherwise I think you would be worried during your climb and screw up.
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newtocalgary
Jul 12, 2002, 2:05 AM
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I just started sport climbing after long trad career and I trust a bost as well as any placement i know is bomber and still place poeces I know wont take a big fall but will slow me down enough for next piece. In time you will know when the piece is bomber and when the piece is insurance to get you to that ledge for the big cam
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jt512
Jul 15, 2002, 7:18 PM
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Quote:
Just because petzl doesn't make pro doesn't mean that all trad gear is dangerous.
Yes, but just because a duck weighs the same amount as a witch doesn't mean that all trad gear will float.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-07-15 12:18 ]
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fitz
Jul 15, 2002, 9:29 PM
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I'd agree with other posters that you *must* trust your gear to push your climbing higher. However, I think the trust must develop naturally, with experience.
Aid climbing, especially with a safety top rope, is a good way to build confidence and experience with individual placements, but a trad lead is more than individual placements. It takes time and practice to understand how new pieces effect previously placed pieces, and vice versa. Also, the impact forces from a lead fall can be dramatically higher than body weight.
Spacing is also hard to visualize. Am I safe from the ledge below or not? Again, it takes practice. Ideally, you would follow all the suggestions here, aid to learn placements, follow a mentor, have a mentor critique all your placements, etc. But, it's called 'ideal' for a reason...
Still even if you are going to basically wing it (many of us did), don't practice falls to build a false sense of security. Just put in some miles on routes within your comfort zone and work on elliminating zippering when you lower off to clean. Keep at it and you or your partner will eventually take some falls, have to retreat on gear, etc. and your confidence will grow
In the mean time, you can push your climbing limits while you wait on top rope or on sport routes.
-jjf
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sparky
Jul 17, 2002, 12:13 AM
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i trust my placements more than my belayer, no i really meant i trust my placements more than this one kid i climb with, i think his name is nick, yep i trust an rp more than nick, and i trust a cam more than this stupid kid named steve.
In short, i trust my schiznat.
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hangdoggypound
Jul 17, 2002, 12:37 AM
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Yeah...I trust my gear placements even more than I trust my belayer ~ that weenie always looks like he's asleep, all kicked back, legs crossed, head resting on the pack. Hey.. he's gnawing on MY beef jerky.
But seriously, there's no way I would trust it without someone actually showing me. Now I'd much rather whip on my snug #8 Stopper than a shiney new bolt.
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wildtrail
Jul 17, 2002, 12:55 AM
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From time to time, but rarely push too much. As far as trad, you can never really trust your placement. Will the piece break, with the rock break, will they both break? Who knows. I have had a few pop, but not break. Usually my "pops" were cams when I used to use them.
Steve
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arsenalcrater
Jul 17, 2002, 1:12 AM
Post #65 of 75
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If you don't trust your trad gear then you need more experience placing it. If that doesn't work then send your gear to me and I'll test it for you. In exchange for the trad gear I'll give you a rack of quickdraws. I've taken huge whippers on small gear. I'm more comfortable taking a fall on my gear then alot of the manky bolts I've seen out there...and have you seen all of the "half sawed through anchors" out there??? You can thank the lazy top ropers for that mess. I don't understand why they are too lazy to run their rope through their draws after clipping them to the anchor instead of ruining a fixed system...now there are times when this is not an option. Multi-pitch routes, big walls...etc....but I'm sure everyone knows what the hell I'm talking about. How many times at a single pitch sport crag do you see the dumbazzes blazing through a cold shut with their rope? Ok....I'm way off topic here. The beer is cold and work is not until tomorrow. Ok, I have taken 20 to 40 foot falls on trad. I took a thirty footer in Sedona on a #00tcu that I had backed up with a #3 stopper that held. I've even fallen on a #1 stopper in Lower Yosemite Falls. If the gear is placed properly then go for it. You should try doing some clean aid on your gear so you can understand it better. With understanding placements and the way your gear works should gain you more confidence. If that doesn't work then send me all of your trad gear and I'll personally test it myself and will in return send you a sport rack and a nice rope bag.
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biggernhell
Jul 17, 2002, 2:35 AM
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I have the solution. So you want to climb trad, but you don't like the idea of trusting your life to you gear. Sell all you own (except that pesky trad gear of course) and move your happy ass to the greatest crag in the world. Yes, thats right kids I'm talkin about Sandrock ALABAMA. Cracks, hell yeah, its got cracks of all sizes. But don't worry abot soiling those liley white skivies cause you last piece is a bottlenecked stopper at you kness. Because at Sand rock bolts aren't just for faces anymore. Feel free to clip any of the conveniently located crackside bolt ladders. Who wants adventure in their climbing. Adventure is highly overrated, and the valley is a pile.
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easysteve
Jan 6, 2003, 7:34 AM
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Yea, I'm sure people trust there gear.
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pbjosh
Jan 7, 2003, 8:49 AM
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Churches! Gravy! Very Small Stones!
I wouldn't trust your gear either. Send it to me for inspection and safekeeping.
josh
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leon0tron
Jan 7, 2003, 9:11 AM
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One of the top climbers here in Ireland has lead trad using a skyhook as a piece of gear, held in place with blu tack. I dont think I have that much faith yet. I seem to be too wary of gear, I'll often double up a piece just to be safe but it means I waste energy, then when I finish the climb I realise the second piece wasn't needed.
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winkwinklambonini
Jan 7, 2003, 10:30 PM
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PETE IS RIGHT! DON'T TRAD CLIMB! GO TO RUMNEY!
Stay away from my crag.
oh, this joke has been made already.
[ This Message was edited by: winkwinklambonini on 2003-01-07 14:32 ]
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gravical
Jan 13, 2003, 11:53 AM
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I nkow how you feel - it had me at first as well - it helped when i started to follow other experienced guys more often (And fall) on their routes. After a while I took a few falls by accident on my placement and built up confidence like that.
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rockrat17
Jan 16, 2003, 8:51 PM
Post #72 of 75
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you have to trust you're gear cuz that's wht saves your butt when you fall!:)
if you don't trust a placement, put a backup placement somewhere near it. if you are really scared and don't trust your placements as much as you should, don't push yourself to your limit when you lead.
[ This Message was edited by: rockrat17 on 2003-01-16 12:54 ]
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tanner
Jan 16, 2003, 9:14 PM
Post #73 of 75
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Pete is right!! Dont Trust your Trad gear! Trad can be relativly safe with proper training, But you shouldn't "trust" it with you life. Its like trusting your cars air bag with your life. Granted if placed well it will probable save you. But its not totaly safe under the best conditions. Trad climbing is dangerous! There is no way around that, many things can happen.
I love climbing on trad gear!! I respect it I don't trust it.
Tanner
Edit for typo
[ This Message was edited by: tanner on 2003-01-16 13:17 ]
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bonesz
Jan 16, 2003, 9:28 PM
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I suppose if I really wanted to be safe, I wouldn't climb period. There will always be some variable in the risk factor, the rock may be solid but, the gear may be shaky. The gear may be solid but the rock may be sketchy. It's a matter of confidence in your abilities, and judgement, and how you feel about the rock you're hanging from with two fingers with a case of elvislegs..
Personally I totally trust my gear, each new piece I get I "test" on my woodie, about 30' in the air, inside my wood shop. Fix the pro, take a breath and let gravity pull me as hard as it can.
Sure I could break something if it let go, but, before I'm 200' hanging on for dear life, I need to know the cam, hex, stopper, sling, will save me. I sport when my back is twitching, and trad when I feel strong.
If there wasn't any risk at all everyone would do it, and the lure of danger would fade. That's why I love the climbing community, we're sane but, not always wrapped too tight.
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pancaketom
Jan 18, 2003, 6:34 AM
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Some pieces I trust (most), and some I put in because that's the best I can get and I don't know when the next piece will be and you never know when the hand of god will smack you off the cliff, and maybe that manky piece will hold (it is amazing what will hold, and what won't).
Lots of good advice, especially seconding and having an experienced climber seconding you. Also aid climbing to see what will hold.
I'd recommend staying within your comfort zone for a while trad leading. Eventually your comfort zone will expand to include climbs where you will take falls, and amazingly the gear will hold (we hope).
I enjoy trad climbing immensely, but when I want to really push my physical limits I clip bolts. I think it is the fact that if I can get to the next bolt I know I can weenie out and clip it, but with trad climbing, if it is a sketchfest I don't know that I can get something in. Also until you get good at trad climbing, there will be a lot of routes you don't really want to fall on. Most easier trad involves ledges and low angles.
My first trad falls were surprises or where I had no choice, and luckily the gear held.
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