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unrooted
Apr 27, 2005, 8:14 PM
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That rock looks sooooo good, I want to pinch tufas like that, but at a much lower angle.
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hasbeen
Apr 27, 2005, 8:23 PM
Post #77 of 110
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In reply to: melonhead wrote: Three years to get 250 ft. of climbing!?! How long did it take Dean Potter to do El Cap and Half Dome......... Whatever. haha...Hell yeah! good point.. I would never spend that kind of time on any route no matter how hard.
And that's why you'll never be any good at climbing. I'm not slagging you for it. You should climb for whatever makes you happy. I, too, find it hard to focus on projects and instead prefer to travel around and climb within my comfort zone. Of course, I will never be any good either.
If you choose to suck, then be happy with your decision. I know I am. However, I do appreciate those who strive for more.
As for Potter, well, I'd say it took him 10 or 15 years to do those two routes since he first started rehearsing those routes when he was first on them. His ascent of those two routes, in one day, was a culmination of all of his climbing experience throught the years. He didn't just walk up and on sight them both in a day. Someone will, some day, and it'll be rad. But we're not to that level yet.
3 years of work on a route is nothing to scoff about. It shows a shitload of dedication and determination. Do you have any idea what it's like to find something and get completely bouted and then work and work until you reach the level to be able to climb it? I am completely miffed that this type of focus and drive is being pissed on. These guys spend their lives dedicated to a sport that brings them very little fame and far less money. If they focused on almost any other pursuit with the same dedication they would have a much more "comfortable" lifestyle. I'm sure they don't care that some fat wanker sits in his office and disses them but I'm confused as to the logic.
To use the parlance of our times, what's up, dude?!
Let me ask you, do you watch sports on TV? Have you ever seen a Super Bowl, Olympics, or World Cup? Or do you prefer to watch guys playing b-ball down at the local Y?
The reason we like to watch Michael Jordan is because he takes a sport beyond that level it was previously at. Ditto for any sport, or even activity. The reason that some of us are interested in the high-level accomplishments of the sport is because we're interested in the sport. If you like something, it's natural to wonder about what is possible within that endeavor and to follow those whom are attemt to excel at it. This seems pretty natural in just about anything I can think of. Do you like to listen to bad music or good? Read bad writing, or something that inspires or educates you? Do you prefer to eat food by a good chef, or someone learning to cook? Do you like to watch your National Team or go to the park to see the "c" league? If you are truly this disinterested in the sport, what are you doing on this web site?
As for me, these folks out there pushing the envelope are all heroes. I may personally like some of them more than others, and ditto for their accomplishments, but I'll give them all credence for gettin' out there and doing it, instead of sitting in here squawking like a bunch of bitter housewives.
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janjaf
Apr 27, 2005, 8:50 PM
Post #78 of 110
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hasbeen, that is THE most sensible and inspiring post on rc.com in the time i've been here. Well said. I'll be back next time i have som trophies to pass out .
--
Noone so far has, in all this yammering on about Rouhling, mentioned the article about him in CLimbing some issues back. Most myths about him, and Akira etc where busted, and he appeared as an inspiring serious and humble climber. No matter how right Huber and his grading calculator maybe , he doesn't come across as humble... imnsho.
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johnnym
Apr 27, 2005, 9:00 PM
Post #79 of 110
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[quote="janjaf"]hasbeen, that is THE most sensible and inspiring post on rc.com in the time i've been here. Well said. quote]
Totally agree! :roll:
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ikefromla
Apr 27, 2005, 9:10 PM
Post #80 of 110
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In reply to: In reply to: hasbeen, that is THE most sensible and inspiring post on rc.com in the time i've been here. Well said. Totally agree! :roll:
That's cuz Edwards is the man.
Allez "Coach!"
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vegastradguy
Apr 27, 2005, 9:17 PM
Post #81 of 110
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In reply to: And that's why you'll never be any good at climbing. I'm not slagging you for it. You should climb for whatever makes you happy. I, too, find it hard to focus on projects and instead prefer to travel around and climb within my comfort zone. Of course, I will never be any good either. If you choose to suck, then be happy with your decision. I know I am. However, I do appreciate those who strive for more.
somehow i don't think Dean Potter would ever watch me climb a 5.8 or something and then turn to Steph Davis and go "you know, that guy right there just sucks...he should project routes more."
to say someone sucks because they dont climb at a certain level is rather condescending and, more to the point, passes judgment on someones pursuit of their own passion- something i'd like to think should not be done.
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musicman
Apr 27, 2005, 9:24 PM
Post #82 of 110
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In reply to: Noone so far has, in all this yammering on about Rouhling, mentioned the article about him in CLimbing some issues back. Most myths about him, and Akira etc where busted, and he appeared as an inspiring serious and humble climber.
do you realize how far climbing has been pushed already? they're having to just extend old routes to get possible 5.15's. It doesn't seem like there are a lot of them out there under 100 feet, i'm not sure about the acual statistics, but you always hear about the "rope-stretching 175 foot pitch extension to Crazy Hard Route With Really Long Name which is listed as a possible 5.15a/b!" it's just an interesting thought
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hasbeen
Apr 27, 2005, 9:34 PM
Post #83 of 110
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In reply to: somehow i don't think Dean Potter would ever watch me climb a 5.8 or something and then turn to Steph Davis and go "you know, that guy right there just sucks...he should project routes more." to say someone sucks because they dont climb at a certain level is rather condescending and, more to the point, passes judgment on someones pursuit of their own passion- something i'd like to think should not be done.
yes, he would. In the right context. You have missed the point.
For example, the other night Charles Barkley said the Dallas Mavericks could not play defense. I believe he used the word "suck". Of course, this is relative. I'm a decent basketball player but if I tried to score on Dirk Nowitski I'm sure he'd shut me right down without much trying. If someone used that example to prove the Dallas had good defenders I can guarantee you Sir Charles would come back with some comment along the lines of "that doesn't prove anything. Edwards sucks." Of course, he would be right.
So while Dean probably would not judge you climbing a 5.8, if someone asked his opinion about who was the better climber, the 5.8 guy or the guy who spent 3 years training to do a 5.16, someone is going to come out on the Barkley "Dallas sucks" scale. It's not condescending. It's objective.
Furthermore, if Potter was directly asked if he thought the 5.8 guy might improve if he projected more routes I'm certain his answer would be yes.
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jpdreamer
Apr 27, 2005, 10:37 PM
Post #84 of 110
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Hasbeen, somehow applying that logic to climbing just doesn't seem right. I don't think in climbing sucking is related to relative ability. Perhaps it's because in climbing you don't compete against others, but rather attempt the challenge of the rock it's self. If someone was climbing a 5.7 beautifully, fireing on all cylinders, even if that was the hardest they could climb the word suck doesn't seem apropriate no matter what. I might use the word in relation to the ability demanded by a particular route, but notin relation to the ability of others.
But anyway, if you have the dedication to spend 3 years working something, that's impressive, no matter what the grade is.
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vegastradguy
Apr 27, 2005, 11:34 PM
Post #85 of 110
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what point did i miss? the one where you're comparing me to Dean Potter and saying I suck in conclusion?
that comparison is so incredibly off base that it need never be made.
i dont compare myself to anyone else when it comes to climbing, and i'd be willing to be money that Potter, Caldwell, and the rest of the elite climbers dont sit around comparing their abilities to their peers....why would they?
climbing is about you and the rock, not comparing your ability to others- which is why that old adage 'The best climber is the one having the most fun' is so very true....
i think, hasbeen, that you have missed everyone elses point...
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hasbeen
Apr 27, 2005, 11:34 PM
Post #86 of 110
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In reply to: Hasbeen, you seem to place a lot more emphasis on ability that I do.
I relation to what? I am not being personal at all. I don't care how or why individuals climb. The point I was making was towards armchair climbers dissing the accomplishments of others and even attacking the people who found these accomplishments inspiring.
What I admire is the process it takes to reach the highest levels. That is why those who make sacrifices deserve to be lauded.
This also doesn't have much to say about ability either. Lots of people have world class ability and don't use it. I, for one, have the ability to be a world class mountaineer as my freeclimbing skill is fairly high as is my cardiovascular prowess. What sets me apart from, say, Mark Twight or Hans Florine is pure gumption and love for the sport. Their single-minded focus, sacrifice, and dedication is what has allowed them to make world-class ascents. I want to have an extra beer at night. I want to eat dessert. I want to sleep in. I don't want to be cold. I don't love climbing enough and want to do other sports. When it's grim out I retreat. So why mock their accomplishments just because I choose to be lazy?
It's not just superior ability and trust funds--as many here seem to believe--that allow these climbers to make visionary ascents. Instead of choosing the safe path of a steady job and more security, full-time climbers make the choice to eek out a meagher living in full fledged pursuit of a sport they love. It's not ability that sets the best climber's apart. It's sacrifice, dedication, and a fearless attitude. And they deserve a little respect for making these choices.
Questioning the grade or the legitamacy of Chilam Balam is fine. But attacking the climber, as those reporting on the ascent, is absurd.
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jpdreamer
Apr 27, 2005, 11:37 PM
Post #87 of 110
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I edited my post after further reflection in order to say what I meant to say better, sorry I didn't get it done before you'd replied.
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hasbeen
Apr 27, 2005, 11:40 PM
Post #88 of 110
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In reply to: the rest of the elite climbers dont sit around comparing their abilities to their peers....why would they?
Have you read this thread? That is exactly what they are doing.
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hasbeen
Apr 27, 2005, 11:51 PM
Post #89 of 110
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In reply to: climbing is about you and the rock, not comparing your ability to others- which is why that old adage 'The best climber is the one having the most fun' is so very true....
Is this not a thread about the best climbers bickering over the hardest sport route in the world? How is that comment relevant?
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hasbeen
Apr 28, 2005, 12:20 AM
Post #90 of 110
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Let's get this thread back on track. Hubble just saw its 4th or so ascent. 4 ascents in 15 years! Amazing. It will be interesting how this guy stacks up Action Direct to it, since he's heading there next.
http://www.planetfear.com/...detail.asp?n_id=5306
With that, how do these short bouldery routes stack up with things like Chilam? Both AD and Hubble have only had a few ascents. Realization is starting to chalk up ticks already. What of Gaskins' new 18' powerfest in England? Maybe it's the hardest route. Maybe short and powerful routes will always be harder to repeat at the given grade.
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janjaf
Apr 28, 2005, 8:21 AM
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As for Hubble and New violent Breed (by Gaskins) vs Bain de sang, Action Direkt, The Fly, and the other often-repeated routes in the upper strata of the grades, you may have a point. But i thinks it's more likely that climbers at that level simply can't climb the same kind of routes.
It'll be hard to sensibly compare 270' of roofs and tufas with 18' of thin sharp crimps. But say, for the sake of the experiment, that some short hard route and Chilam Balam were the same grade. It's unlikely that we'd ever know, since so few climb these grades, and those who do rarely climb the same kind of routes, more often putting up new routes in their own preferred style. Andrada has done more hard climbs than most, but almost all are first ascents:
http://www.8a.nu/...cgi?view=8009&page=1
I can't help wondering if this is a consequence of sponsorships and the pressure to do more hard routes.
Most climbers at this level are agreeing about Aktion Direkt as 9a, but almost all other repeated 9a's are in dispute - recently Dave Graham said Bain de Sang might be 8c+. We'll most like have to wait for years, before 9a and above becomes well-defined grades.
After writing this, I came across McClure great article here:
http://www.planetfear.com/..._detail.asp?a_id=110
Which says some of the same...
Btw. her's some lists of the 9as and above... propably out of date, but still...
http://www.8a.nu/...articles/Etikb.shtml
http://www.saclimb.co.za/hardest.html
-------
I just have to add, that this quote from hasbeen:
In reply to: I want to have an extra beer at night. I want to eat dessert. I want to sleep in. I don't want to be cold. I don't love climbing enough and want to do other sports. When it's grim out I retreat.
:D
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hasbeen
Apr 29, 2005, 5:41 PM
Post #92 of 110
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Thanks for that link. McClure's piece was good. He's written a few things on the subject regarding cutting edge grades that are quite logical and not egotistical, which is rare. Most of this banter shows people to be a bit protective over their routes and styles.
I was just using the exact same point, comparing climbing to running, at a training conference recently when climbing came up. It really shows how climbing is still in its infancy when it comes to training and potential because, currently, the best climbers still seem--to some degree--to be able to repeat hard routes of varying styles. We have specialists now. I don't think Gaskins and Fernandez will be repeating each others routes any time soon. But guys like Sharma, Graham, Malcomb Smith, etc, have repeats of hard routes of vastly different styles. Certainly, as training techniques become more evolved, the chances of varying style repeats will become as likely as a 100 meter runner setting a world standard in the 800, and vice versa. And, while it's definitely begun, it's just a matter of time before there is no comparison between power climbers and endurance climbers.
What I find interesting here is to try and envision just what climbers will do in the future. Looking at some of Sharma's boulder problems, it's hard for me to even tell which holds he uses. They are vastly different looking to, say, Action Direct (which I've been on and had no trouble telling what to use--of course actually doing it is a whole different proposition). But knowing that, for certain, climbers are going to get much stronger it's amazing to think what will get climbed.
Ditto with endurance. I was on a route in Les Goudes(sp) years back that, to me, was completely gobsmacking in its continuous nature. It seemed impossible, even if every hold was a handle bar, since it went straight out a roof for a rope length. But a few days later Big Frank and Yuji both nearly on sighted it and downgraded it to 14a. And now that route is short compared to Chilam. Amazing.
Then we have guys like the Hubers, who've basically turned El Cap into a crag. Instead of this monsterous wall, it's like Tahquitz was in the 60s. Caldwell's ascent on the Dihedral Wall is completely visionary by today's standards, yet the tip of the iceberg of what's going to happen. His work days are so inspiring. "Practicing" the first 1800' of the route before noon. Then having lunch and bouldering til dark. Imagine Salathe witnessing this. He found Barber's 3 hour ascent of the Sentinel unfathomable.
I think Steph Davis' training is a glimpse into the future. With a goal of a long free climb, she had to shun going cragging in favor of bouldering for specific power and running ultra marathons for endurance. The old climbing is the best training for climbing theory really only applies for beginners.
While a bit of a tanget to the original topic, I find all banter on the subject of human performance interesting, especially when it comes to climbing since it's so poorly understood.
Also, if anyone has a current list of hard routes and repeats I'd like to see it. The above is pretty out of date.
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pbjosh
Apr 29, 2005, 6:11 PM
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A couple notes / points of interest:
Bain de Sang has had the most repeats of any 9a (maybe 9?) and has been suggested to be 8c+ twice (Graham and Pou) AFAIK. FWIW, This route is very very thin, not terribly steep, and Dave Graham and Iker Pou are both sticks, much unlike someone like Nicole, Sharma or Julian who is much much more muscular / larger framed.
Om, Alex Huber's 1993 9a, and the second claimed 9a in the world, is still unrepeated.
Action Direct is the 2nd most repeated 9a and the only suggested downrating I've ever heard is in McClure's article, but that was someone who did not repeat it so doesn't have a valid opinion.
Kinematix (newer 9a) was very very rapidly repeated by Ramon Julian and Patxi Usobiaga but neither suggested downrating. I remember reading that one of them did it 3rd try.
For further amazement, Iker Pou, who suggested Bain de Sang was 8c+ not 9a, also suggested upgrading The Nose on El Cap after failing to send it, suggesting 8b+ for the Great Roof pitch and 8c+ for the Changing Corners pitch!
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hasbeen
Apr 29, 2005, 6:54 PM
Post #94 of 110
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In reply to: Iker Pou, who suggested Bain de Sang was 8c+ not 9a, also suggested upgrading The Nose on El Cap after failing to send it, suggesting 8b+ for the Great Roof pitch and 8c+ for the Changing Corners pitch!
was this via hill or burke's way on CC? burke also thought the nose was 14a. hill said no way but burke's not exaclty a punter on thin granite. since both up and downgrading, based on consensus, always occurs i would think it's time for the nose to get some sort of official upgrade. a lot of big-name folks have given it a look. i would say upgrade it 14a (or c?) and then let it get downgraded. why not? lynn has no reason to be modest about this at all. i think she would accept a general consensus.
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lvclimbingbum
Jun 1, 2005, 2:19 PM
Post #95 of 110
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I just read that Dani Andrada just climbed this 5.15a/b somewhere in Spain. The pic of him climbing it makes it look true.
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eliliang
Jun 1, 2005, 2:36 PM
Post #96 of 110
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In reply to: I just read that Dani Andrada just climbed this 5.15a/b somewhere in Spain. The pic of him climbing it makes it look true.
...and?
Does he think it is 5.15c? or not harder than 5.15a?
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bigjonnyc
Jun 1, 2005, 3:54 PM
Post #97 of 110
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I haven't read all 7 pages of this due to laziness, but has anyone ever made claim to have sent a 5.15b? If not, it seems pretty stupid to claim a 5.15c.
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tradman
Jun 1, 2005, 4:43 PM
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Yes, Sharma tried to claim V16 (about 5.15b) for Mandala. Of course that was before somebody flashed it and took the grade down to V11.
:roll:
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pbjosh
Jun 1, 2005, 5:02 PM
Post #99 of 110
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In reply to: Yes, Sharma tried to claim V16 (about 5.15b) for Mandala. Of course that was before somebody flashed it and took the grade down to V11. :roll:
Though this was a joke, were it not, claiming that grade would not be claiming 5.15b. This grade has been claimed at least one other time, by Fred Roughling for his route Akira. More recently Dani Andrada has suggested 5.15a/b for a new route of his in Spain.
FWIW Dai Koyamada suggested that, for his The Wheel of Life, a route grade might be more appropriate than a V grade, so instead of calling it V16 perhaps 5.15a would be more appropriate.
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pbjosh
Jun 1, 2005, 5:07 PM
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double post
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