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sspssp


Jul 14, 2003, 2:00 PM
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I don't know about the rest of Europe, but I think doubles are popular in the UK, but very unpopular in Germany, where twins (& singles) are preferred.

I should have said either doubles or twins. I climb in Yosemite (or Toulumne) year around. Over the coarse of the year, I might see one or possibly two parties on doubles.

If you come here in search of a partner, I can see leaving the doubles behind. But many (most?) Europeans come here with partners. I bet I've seen at least a dozen teams that I could tell were European from their voices (and seen how many more that I didn't no were European) this year. Again, not a one using doubles (or twins).


iamthewallress


Jul 14, 2003, 2:01 PM
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Do Europeans (and East Coasters) leave their doubles behind when they come to the Valley? If so, why? There are a lot of meandering routes and a lot of reasons to have two ropes to rap. Or, are not that many rock climbers actually climbing on doubles.

I can't answer for Euros or Easterners, but I use twins/doubles there about 50% of the time. I have the Beal 8.1's that work as both. If we will need two ropes to rap, we always use them since it is more efficient that trailing (less snagging, and we can stack them as one rope). Whether they get clipped as twins or doubles depends on whether or not a pitch traverses much.

The other time that we use them is if we are on a route that is reasonable for my partner, but has horrifyingly hard traverses for me to follow.

Using double is heavier than a 9.4-9.7 single by quite a bit, and involves a bit more fussing. If we are doing a really long route where we want to go as fast and light as possible, we'll use a single. I suspect that a lot of people who travel great distances to climb in Yosemite have their eye on the long routes, so maybe this has something to do with less double use here? Just guessing.


dirtineye


Jul 14, 2003, 2:18 PM
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IN Northt Carolina, at Whitesides, the Original Route and many others are done with doubles by my pals. Some guides insist on doubles.

PMI makes a rope set called verglass, rated for use as a twins or doubles.


helvellyn


Jul 14, 2003, 2:24 PM
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Depends where you are in Europe in the UK almost every climber on a route will be using doubles. In France a lot of climbers (I've seen) use a single as a lot of the routes are bolted other than the climbers doing trad or Alpine climbs then a double is always the rope of choice.

As to why Europeans climb on singles in the valley (I guess you mean Yosemite or somewhere in the States) I'm not actually sure, i've never been so couldn't comment.

I personally go for Doubles on all Trad/Ice routes whether I'm in the UK or in Europe the only time I use a single is moving together or scrambling. Good thing about learning with doubles is that adapting to a single is easier than going from a single to a double especially in belaying terms. (if you get what i mean).


deadfish


Jul 14, 2003, 2:28 PM
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I climb mostly Yosemite, Tuolumne, the Leap...these days, I almost always use doubles unless we are planning to do a bunch of toproping. Got my regular partners convinced after the first day. Unless a route goes straight up, they are absolutely the sh-- for keeping rope drag down. With a lot of routes in the valley requiring rap-offs, I prefer using doubles to trailing a rope when I'm going to have to use two ropes anyway.


dingus


Jul 14, 2003, 2:32 PM
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I've led some on a single half rope, as recently as 3 weeks ago. We were simul-climbing.

Is that wrong?

DMT


sspssp


Jul 14, 2003, 2:58 PM
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Ok, this is quite the thread (but hey, it beats actually doing any work here in my cubicle).

Yea, I occasionally climb on doubles and as this thread shows, other people do too. So for the people who have answered that they sometimes climb in Yosemite with doubles (or twins), how many other people have you seen doing it?

It is hard to estimate how many other teams I might see climbing in a year where I can tell whether they are using single ropes or not. But I would guess hundreds. Out of that, I might see one party using doubles. Seems like an awful low percentage to me. And I haven't really been convinced that that many rock climbers use doubles. Now if any one should like to sponser me on a trip to Europe, I would be more than happy to conduct further research...


iamthewallress


Jul 14, 2003, 3:09 PM
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So for the people who have answered that they sometimes climb in Yosemite with doubles (or twins), how many other people have you seen doing it?...

Only one other duo that I recall in Yosemite. They were on Royal Arches using doubles (alternating clips), and we had to climb up to fix a snag that resulted from their unfamiliarityw/ the ropes. (They were using them for the first time.)

I saw some folks "practicing" (also learning how to use brand new doubles) at J Tree.

I know a couple of others who prefer them to singles, but I've never watched them climb.

To be fair, I don't pay much attention to what ropes others are using.


davidji


Jul 14, 2003, 4:24 PM
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I've led some on a single half rope, as recently as 3 weeks ago. We were simul-climbing.
Ditto, although on a doubled single half-rope. [huh? - ed.]


pico23


Jul 14, 2003, 10:24 PM
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I don't know about the rest of Europe, but I think doubles are popular in the UK, but very unpopular in Germany, where twins (& singles) are preferred.

I should have said either doubles or twins. I climb in Yosemite (or Toulumne) year around. Over the coarse of the year, I might see one or possibly two parties on doubles.

If you come here in search of a partner, I can see leaving the doubles behind. But many (most?) Europeans come here with partners. I bet I've seen at least a dozen teams that I could tell were European from their voices (and seen how many more that I didn't no were European) this year. Again, not a one using doubles (or twins).

This is my take on it. I tend to really see doubles shine on very complex routes. Such as roofs, meandering traverses, very different types of terrain on a single pitch.

Are the walls in Yosemite like that? I'm asking not stating. Most of the photos i've seen seem like the rock is rather featureless for the most part. Occasionally I see a roof but most of it looks like faces and vertical cracks. Rope drag doesn't look to be an issue, is it?

But also, when people are looking for a partner they don't use doubles for the most part. Unless you use them regularly you typically spend a lot of time cursing them. And I'd be weary of climbing with someone new on a belay system they were not comfortable with. I only use my doubles with partners that like them, if they don't I simply use a single rope.

Other then that I have no clue why people don't climb with them but I see quite a few people climbing on them every time I climb. Some are older climbers and some or younger climbers.


sspssp


Jul 15, 2003, 10:19 AM
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This is my take on it. I tend to really see doubles shine on very complex routes. Such as roofs, meandering traverses, very different types of terrain on a single pitch.

Are the walls in Yosemite like that? I'm asking not stating. Most of the photos i've seen seem like the rock is rather featureless for the most part. Occasionally I see a roof but most of it looks like faces and vertical cracks. Rope drag doesn't look to be an issue, is it?

But also, when people are looking for a partner they don't use doubles for the most part. Unless you use them regularly you typically spend a lot of time cursing them.
Other then that I have no clue why people don't climb with them but I see quite a few people climbing on them every time I climb. Some are older climbers and some or younger climbers.

The Yosemite routes vary. Many walls are clean and featureless and these tend to be the most photogenic. But there are a lot of routes that meander, traverse, and have various features and buttresses, particularly the moderate climbs.

Sure if you are looking for a partner, you wouldn't use doubles and Yosemite is a pretty easy place to get a partner. But I think the majority (if not the vast majority) of climbers show up with a partner.

As far as why people don't climb with them. It is a lot easier to have problems. As John Long says: double ropes are six times as likely to get tangled. And even when there are no major problems, flaking the ropes (when bringing up the second) is slower. My major complaint against doubles is that on the easy/moderate pitches (say when the leader is putting a piece in ~20 feet or so) the speed at which the second can climb up is limited to the speed at which the leader can flake the rope. That is, we constantly lose time as the second hangs around waiting for the leader to manage ropes. When there is a good ledge, it isn't too bad. For hanging/stance belays, the best we have come up with is stuffing both ropes in a rope bag, but it is significantly slower than when we climb with one rope.


pico23


Jul 15, 2003, 12:18 PM
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This is my take on it. I tend to really see doubles shine on very complex routes. Such as roofs, meandering traverses, very different types of terrain on a single pitch.

Are the walls in Yosemite like that? I'm asking not stating. Most of the photos i've seen seem like the rock is rather featureless for the most part. Occasionally I see a roof but most of it looks like faces and vertical cracks. Rope drag doesn't look to be an issue, is it?

But also, when people are looking for a partner they don't use doubles for the most part. Unless you use them regularly you typically spend a lot of time cursing them.
Other then that I have no clue why people don't climb with them but I see quite a few people climbing on them every time I climb. Some are older climbers and some or younger climbers.

The Yosemite routes vary. Many walls are clean and featureless and these tend to be the most photogenic. But there are a lot of routes that meander, traverse, and have various features and buttresses, particularly the moderate climbs.

Sure if you are looking for a partner, you wouldn't use doubles and Yosemite is a pretty easy place to get a partner. But I think the majority (if not the vast majority) of climbers show up with a partner.

As far as why people don't climb with them. It is a lot easier to have problems. As John Long says: double ropes are six times as likely to get tangled. And even when there are no major problems, flaking the ropes (when bringing up the second) is slower. My major complaint against doubles is that on the easy/moderate pitches (say when the leader is putting a piece in ~20 feet or so) the speed at which the second can climb up is limited to the speed at which the leader can flake the rope. That is, we constantly lose time as the second hangs around waiting for the leader to manage ropes. When there is a good ledge, it isn't too bad. For hanging/stance belays, the best we have come up with is stuffing both ropes in a rope bag, but it is significantly slower than when we climb with one rope.

If you are trading leads try coiling/piling into one coil/pile. Don't bother separating them. Just flip the stack if you aren't trading leads and off you go. They actually tangle less if you let them be. But I'm not disagreeing, they can get some nasty tangles. We were climbing short mulipitch ice (300 foot climbs) this winter and after getting off one climb we coiled the ropes and just had enough time to get on a another and probably rap off in the dark. Well, considering we both used and like doubles we couldn't get the tangles out. We cursed and bitched for 10 minutes as we worked the knots out. It was just a random tangle in a butterfly coil but it was so bad we spent 15 minutes on it. By the time we got it out it was nearly dark and we ended up retreating mid pitch and hiking out. The sad part is that the climb we didn't get to do is only in once ever few years. Ouch.


sspssp


Jul 15, 2003, 1:03 PM
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If you are trading leads try coiling/piling into one coil/pile. Don't bother separating them. Just flip the stack if you aren't trading leads and off you go. They actually tangle less if you let them be.

Well yea, if there is a ledge to pile them onto, it is a lot easier. I've never found that "flipping the coil" works all that great with a single rope. For every 3 or 4 times that it works, you get one time that is such a big tangle that it is quicker in the long run to just reflake (actually, I've gone to just switching ends of the rope). I can only imagine the Cluster F. you could get from trying to flip doubles, but each to their own.


papounet


Jul 16, 2003, 5:55 AM
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In France,
most climbers I meet will tend to:
1/ use single (60m) for sports climb and whenever they can get away with it
exceptions are:
2/ use 1 strand of 50m double on easy alpine routes (single strand on glacier, strand in double (2*25) on rock)
3/ use 2 strands of 50-60m double on routes which are either
- ice (because of poor anchor)
- trad routes (because of meandering and/or risk of having one rope cut)
- long routes (because of need to retreat)
- no easy descent routes (need of rappel)
- climbing as a group of 3


hammer_


Jul 16, 2003, 9:24 AM
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Advantages of double roping:

Two ropes are intrinsically more secure, should a rope be cut by rockfall, or over an edge.

Two ropes will double the distance that you can rappel.

Two ropes will reduce rope drag, reduce the number of extended runners required, and enable more off-line runner placements to be used.

Two ropes can be a lot more secure for the second, on routes that involve a traverse, where the leader can clip one rope during the traverse, and thus enabling the other rope to be above the second.

More subtle: at each clip, you'll have to pull out a lot less rope above your last runner, since you'll alternate ropes. This is very useful, especially near the ground, or above marginal gear.

Two ropes means that two seconds can follow a leader

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