My friend is on the atkins diet and she says it works great. The results are visual and true. The atkins is a low carb high protein diet. If you have the discipline you'll be in great shape! You can read up on it at any library or even check it out on the web. Good luck.

I have heard that going on a low carb diet combined with excersizing works really well. Its pretty easy too, just stay away from breads, pastas, rice and such; and climb alot :)

Popcorn worked when I ate it for an afternoon snack. I just got sick of eating it. :(
Besides rice cakes, popcorn, raw veggies, give me heartburn.
I do drink a lot more water but, I can't shake the hunger. I end up eating more to fill up. I get a better feeling when I combine a lump of French bread and a glass of water. My problem is I love to put butter on it! Even then success is fleeting.

If you want to lose weight, skip the dieting & make healthy lifestyle changes. (give up dairy, no snacking after 8, more raw veggies/fruit)

It works wonders. (seen Demi's bod lately?)

raw raw raw,
derv

I have to strongly disagree on the adivce to give up dairy foods, which are the main source of calcium in Western diets. Regarding dairy and weight loss, much better advice is to switch to non-fat dairy.

-Jay

A "one-a-day" will replace whatever calcium you think a person is missing.

Worked for me during the 8 years I went without.

First of all, you don't whether it "worked for you" unless you had a bone scan done. You're too young to get osteoporosis. Let us know how well it worked when you're 70.

Secondly, even if it did "work for you." I can show you 100 controlled studies that show that your calcium intake was probably dangerously low.

-Jay

I won't debate nutrition with you Jay, that's what you get paid for and you'd likely kick my tush. Except that whole statistics thing - I mean c'mon dawg, that's all you got?

I can show you statistics that prove everyone who ate carrots 200 years ago DIED - does it mean, don't eat carrots?

But I still believe that only the individual knows what's best to intake.

have to strongly disagree on the adivce to give up dairy foods, which are the main source of calcium in Western diets. Regarding dairy and weight loss, much better advice is to switch to non-fat dairy.
-Jay

I have to disagree with you as well Jay...Most people are drawn to dairy because it is supposed to be a good source of calcium. What people (including many health practitioners) are not aware of is the fact that cow's milk is more likely a contributor to calcium deficiency. This is because cow's milk is very high in phosphorus and protein. Elevated phosphorus levels make calcium assimilation difficult. When excessive protein is ingested, the blood can become too acidic. To buffer this rise in acid the body draws on calcium stored in the bones, a process known as calcium leaching. The greater a person's protein intake, the higher their calcium losses will be, and regardless of how much calcium is consumed either in the diet or through supplements, this calcium leaching will continue unabated unless the protein consumption is reduced. . . .

Anyone who has studied the composition of foods knows that a variety of whole grains, vegetables, nuts and seeds--such as broccoli, turnip greens, carrots, spinach, cauliflower, kale, onions, almonds and filberts--are excellent sources of calcium.

The fact is, more calcium will be absorbed by the body from a cup of broccoli than from a cup of milk!

I don't have time to go into this in detail, but you've been taken in by vegan propaganda.
-Jay

There is overwhelming evidence that milk and milk products are harmful to people (adult and child alike).

Milk is a contributing factor in constipation, chronic fatigue, arthritis, headaches, muscle cramps, obesity, allergies, heart problems, etc etc...

Basically, diary is as American as Apple Pie but that's because apple pie doesn't have Congressional lobbyists and a multi-million dollar advertising budget...no other countries include dairy into their lifestyle as Amerians do.

However, If you want some good books on the non-dairy (which I'm sure you do! :wink: ) check out Don't Drink Your Milk! by Frank Oski, M.D (Director of the Department of Pediatrics of Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine and Physician-in-Chief of the Johns Hopkins Children's Center) as well as many papers written by retired osteopathic physican Dr. William Ellis, and pediatrician Dr. russel Bunai.

Basically we can go round and round on this issue and not get to an agreement :) ...

You're right, we'll never come to agreement because you have fanatical beliefs on the subject, which you feed by reading only one side of the issue

I have yet to see the positive benefits of dairy, jay when there are so many other options out there.

With respect to Dairy Products I can see many more negatives than positives. That is also, not being fanatical. It is from my own experience.

I have to add, since you're poking jabs, I am not the only one with such beliefs and would go so far as to include you in the categorization of being fanatical.

Incidentally, as to your own diet, as far as calcium goes, you may well have the worst of both worlds: a high-protein intake coupled with a low-calcium intake. You were correct that protein causes loss of calcium from the bones; however, in the presence of high calcium intake, high-protein intake increases the absorption of dietary calcium from the intestine, and the best evidence indicates that the net effect on bone is positive. However, when calcium intake is low, high protein intake cannot further upregulate the absorption of calcium from the intestine, and the net effect on bone is negative.-Jay

Since when is holding a generally accepted view fanatical?

There are indeed better sources of calcium than milk.

Thank you for your concern...

Anyway, you've already accepted part of what I said by saying

About the only foods that could be consumed in sufficient quantities to yield sufficient calcium are turnip greens, kale, and mustard greens. There are indeed better sources of calcium than milk, but you really would need to consume a couple cups of them each day to meet the RDI for calcium, and few people eat that much of those foods. The other foods you mentioned are either mediocre sources of calcium or are impractical to consume in large quantities (eg, sesame seeds).

With respect to Dairy Products I can see many more negatives than positives. That is also, not being fanatical. It is from my own experience....Again, thanks for playing and for putting in your two cents, it is appreciated. :D

Gotta' go with G on this one. Amazing how if you disagree with JT you're fanatical. If you bring up a personal experience, you can't possibly be correct because statistics don't lie (I taught a class on statistics, but even I'm not allowed to debate JT on that one apparently), and in general if you don't drink milk you're screwed because the RDI (which has never been wrong) said so..

Amazing how if you disagree with JT you're fanatical.

I taught a class on statistics, but even I'm not allowed to debate JT on that one apparently...

and in general if you don't drink milk you're screwed because the RDI (which has never been wrong) said so..

Well, California's potential new govornor, Arnold, doesn't drink milk and has a decent body, my wife doesn't drink milk and has a decent body...

(ooo, sorry about the personal jab, it was the "fanatic" in me).

Here's some cool statistics:
3. Everyone who drank milk 200 years ago DIED!

Oh yeah, and this little tidbit: "The Harvard Nurses’ Health Study, which followed more than 75,000 women for 12 years, showed no protective effect of increased milk consumption on fracture risk. In fact, increased intake of calcium from dairy products was associated with a higher fracture risk. An Australian study showed the same results. Additionally, other studies have also found no protective effect of dairy calcium on bone. You can decrease your risk of osteoporosis by reducing sodium and animal protein intake in the diet, increasing intake of fruits and vegetables, exercising, and ensuring adequate calcium intake from plant foods such as leafy green vegetables and beans, as well as calcium-fortified products such as breakfast cereals and juices."

Of course these people are using statistics that disagree with JT so I'm not sure how correct they are :wink:

J Am Coll Nutr. 2000 Apr;19(2 Suppl):83S-99S.
Calcium, dairy products and osteoporosis.

Heaney RP.

Creighton University, Omaha, Nebraska 68178, USA.

Osteoporosis is a multifactorial disorder in which nutrition plays a role but does not account for the totality of the problem. 139 papers published since 1975 and describing studies of the relationship of calcium intake and bone health are briefly analyzed. Of 52 investigator-controlled calcium intervention studies, all but two showed better bone balance at high intakes, or greater bone gain during growth, or reduced bone loss in the elderly, or reduced fracture risk. This evidence firmly establishes that high calcium intakes promote bone health. Additionally, three-fourths of 86 observational studies were also positive, indicating that the causal link established in investigator-controlled trials can be found in free-living subjects as well. The principal reason for failure to find an association in observational studies is the weakness of the methods available for estimating long-term calcium intake. While most of the investigator-controlled studies used calcium supplements, six used dairy sources of calcium; all were positive. Most of the observational studies were based on dairy calcium also, since at the time the studies were done, higher calcium intakes meant higher dairy intakes. All studies evaluating the issue reported substantial augmentation of the osteoprotective effect of estrogen by high calcium intakes. Discussion is provided in regard to the multifactorial complexity of osteoporotic response to interventions and to the perturbing effect in controlled trials of the bone remodeling transient, as well as about how inferences can validly be drawn from the various study types represented in this compilation.

Notice how, when you look at all the studies published on the subject, rather than the few that PETA chooses to quote, the picture looks quite different.

Thanks for playing, Mike.

The "fanatic" comment was only to back G up on this thread. It had nothing to do with anywhere else you've posted. It's that whole, "protecting someone with a cute tush" additiction I have.

Looking at a few other "propagandist" studies outside of PETA...[snip]

Or from that propagandist author Dr. John McDougall:

Moral of the story - No one definitively knows the answers to the milk controversy.

Sorry, I have to intervene for the sake of the other readers in this forum.

This is not in response to any particular poster and there is some useful info here, but the topic has degraded into personal conflict chock full of quotes that readers have already read 1, 2, 3+ times before in this thread. As this is a highly moderated forum for a reason (one of which is to stay away from flame wars and personal rather than informational debates in a thread) I will leave this decision up to you all to be fair.

We can:
1) move this thread to another forum (you all decide on which one would be most appropriate)
2) We can delete some of these extraneaous posts to keep this in the LR
3) The personal debate can continue in PM to save the rest of the readers here from wasting time
4) You can all tell me to shove it (but I want a good argument)

Gretchino, mreardon, jt512, the orginal poster (queenkatherine)...

What say ye troops?

~Erica

We can:
1) move this thread to another forum (you all decide on which one would be most appropriate)
2) We can delete some of these extraneaous posts to keep this in the LR
3) The personal debate can continue in PM to save the rest of the readers here from wasting time
4) You can all tell me to shove it (but I want a good argument)

Gretchino, mreardon, jt512, the orginal poster (??)...

What say ye troops?

~Erica

Mike, Mike, Mike, and Jay, Jay, Jay,

Get your butts out of the ladies forum (and the associated calcium based pissing match there) and come bouldering for Christ's sake.

Curt

::stops slamming head on desk::

End of conversation from my end Erica....Thanks for the butt compliments Mike (I think... :shock: )

::continues to pound head on desk::

Oh well, Hey did you ever try some of the new protein drink powders . I am a skeptic, but they contain milk products, and are 98% lactose free, and are much easier on the digestive system. I also have a very sensitive system. Of course there are soy powders as well. :idea:
I too am a vegetarian, once and a while partake of some fish, so I know your dilemna as well. :wink:
If you get a good powder, with the protein and the calcium you'll become so super strong. And who knows' might out climb jt. Or at least give him a challenge. :lol: :lol: :wink:

I found that keeping a journal of everything you eat and keeping an exercise log helps.