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theicemoose
Oct 14, 2006, 5:02 PM
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Okay, as a new poster, I'll take the mulligan on reviving this one. Sorry to intrude so much into everyone's extremely valuable time that they're stealing from their employers. However, I do want to just point out that
A) the intermountain west, whatever that is, isn't all things to all people. North Carolina has all natural steep 5.14 sport climbing as well as load-your-pants trad puckerfests. Didn't know about that one? This is not the only example, just a drop in the bucket. The sad thing is that you twits really think that hard climbing doesn't happen without ethical backsliding. There are 5.12 and up routes all over the West, face, crack, etc. that went in ground up, clean, without the use of Bosches and crowbars. Some have bolts, some require balls, but the real difference is that they were put up by people who are proud of the style they used to chart unclimbed territory, unlike some of these posers.
B) The line about "unimproved rock"-thanks for making me taste my breakfast again. The idea that chipping is improvement reminds me of the notion that our personal freedoms are "protected" by the patriot act. Same logic.
C)Someone asked why there wasn't a thread about what crags aren't chipped to pieces. I just posed that question to the members of this site, and appreciate any info that you can add to that list. I climbed eight nice, natural limestone routes yesterday while all this squalling was taking place in your cubicles at work. I'd love to find out where more are.
And the only cold, still sex partners of mine worth mentioning are the deceased madres of my chipping "friends." Way to keep it childish, there's a reason you sad sacks are single. Get off the computer and get a manual on "How to Date Trashy Women" if that's what it takes to get you started. Worked for me. :)
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jt512
Oct 14, 2006, 5:21 PM
Post #227 of 323
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In reply to: In reply to: They think they're climbing on unimproved rock. Hahahahaha!!!!!11 Jay poor-misled-idealistic-head-in-the-sand-clueless sods. We did try to tell them earlier in this thread tho didn't we, like a year ago. Can I do a thread jack? Here is the challenge: name a climbing area in the U.S. that does not have routes that are chipped, "creativly cleaned", sculpted or glued etc.
I think that most of the routes at J Tree have gone up in their natural state, but I could be mistaken. Rock quality varies at J Tree but the better rock is pretty solid and routes either slabby or well featured.
In reply to: Or, perhaps more to the point, list all the classic routes at your favorite crag that ARE chipped, glued and creativly cleaned and other wise manipulated. I'll go first: Every sandstone and limestone route in the intermountain west. with the possible exception of a few routes at "the hoop."
The vast majority of sport routes in Southern California. This includes virtually every route in the Santa Monica Mountains, including the popular area known as Echo Cliffs. Most routes at Williamson have been altered, and, in general, the better and harder the route, the more it has been altered, with the most flagrant case being a blatantly obvious drilled hold in the crux on a local classic 5.13. Routes at Riverside Quarry are more like heavy construction projects than natural routes. Good luck finding a route at New Jack that hasn't seen some degree of manufacturing. Potosi, Clark, and Charleston/Chiselton/Chipperton - clean, glued, chipped, and drilled.
Jay
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jt512
Oct 14, 2006, 5:25 PM
Post #228 of 323
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In reply to: I climbed eight nice, natural limestone routes yesterday...)
Are you sure? Which routes? Vegas limestone is notorious.
Jay
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jt512
Oct 14, 2006, 5:32 PM
Post #229 of 323
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In reply to: People's self-worth is too wrapped up in their "route creations" and "lifetime projects" to be able to stand up and say "hey, I made this route, it's pretty fun, I chipped it up a little to improve a section I thought wasn't that cool, so climb it and see if you think I was right to fix that part."
Actually, people say stuff like that all the time, and, in fact, sometimes seek other climbers' opinions on which holds on a new route shlould stay and which are "loose" and need to go.
Jay
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veganboyjosh
Oct 14, 2006, 6:24 PM
Post #230 of 323
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In reply to: Actually, people say stuff like that all the time, and, in fact, sometimes seek other climbers' opinions on which holds on a new route shlould stay and which are "loose" and need to go. Jay
i've not developed any routes, set any bolts, or even considered doing so myself, i don't know that it's something i'm/ever will be interested in.
but i have spoken to others who have done this, or are into developing routes/areas, as it's an interesting segment of climbing.
this idea, that a route developer would solicit advice as to which holds should stay or go seems outrageous. i didn't know this happened, and it sheds new light on the practice, for me at least.
interesting to think about...
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chossmonkey
Oct 14, 2006, 10:18 PM
Post #231 of 323
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In reply to: Oops, my bad. I didn't see that I was, in fact, a vicim of the Necromancer. :oops:
And you call yourself a professional. 10,000+ posts and still making the classic nOOb mistake. :roll:
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desertdude420
Oct 14, 2006, 11:48 PM
Post #233 of 323
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NO!
NO!
NO!
Chipping is NOT an acceptable part of rock climbing. It is an act that replaces having skills with admitting your meager talents.
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diophantus
Oct 15, 2006, 4:35 PM
Post #234 of 323
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In reply to: Get off the computer and get a manual on "How to Date Trashy Women" if that's what it takes to get you started. Worked for me. :)
You needed a manual telling you how to date trashy women and you live in vegas? HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
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live2climb
Oct 15, 2006, 4:50 PM
Post #235 of 323
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Registered: Jun 29, 2004
Posts: 157
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1 no
2never
3 nope
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cjsimpso
Oct 15, 2006, 5:52 PM
Post #236 of 323
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The (locally famous) wave boulder at Lincoln woods, RI has this beautiful, angled, slopey crack that you have to lay back and power up to reach the lovely traverse-to-topout jugs. Its a beautiiful problem that goes at a paltry V2/3, thanks to the full, fabricated, four-finger pocket on the inside edge at sit-start height. I'd have never sent this terrific problem without that artificial boost.
And honestly, I wish I never had. Id rather it be desperate, powerful, and natural. I'd rather it had spit me out a dozen times and then some, so I could come back and work it until I finally found the strength to man up and send it. But instead, some frustrated little chipper (who knows how many years ago) took that away. Now when I go back, I work it without that pocket, but the thrill of the first successful send of the beautiful natural line is gone. Sucks.
With that in mind:
NO
NO
NO
PS... even if you own the land, one day, be it 5, 10 or 100 years from now, you won't, and someone will hate you for taking one more little slice of natural beauty and irreversabaly corrupting it. Thanks for nothing.
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david_smithrock
Oct 16, 2006, 5:07 PM
Post #237 of 323
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In reply to: Sorry, one last point. In reply to: And lets not even get into crack climbing! It's hard to find a crack 5.11 or harder that doesn't rely on pin scars. Ever been to Indian Creek? Vedauwoo? South Platt? Fremont Canyon? Etc... That statement shows an obvious ignorance. In most crack climbing areas I have been to what you are saying occassionally exists but it is by FAR the exception and not the rule.
Ever been on a 5.11 crack? Maybe the areas you mentioned don't have as many pin scars as say Yosemite (or Red Rock, Zion, J-Tree, etc, etc.) but it's really common. Either you don't know what to look for or you didn't notice..... ignorance is bliss.
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cracklover
Oct 16, 2006, 6:09 PM
Post #238 of 323
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Registered: Nov 14, 2002
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In reply to: In reply to: Sorry, one last point. In reply to: And lets not even get into crack climbing! It's hard to find a crack 5.11 or harder that doesn't rely on pin scars. Ever been to Indian Creek? Vedauwoo? South Platt? Fremont Canyon? Etc... That statement shows an obvious ignorance. In most crack climbing areas I have been to what you are saying occassionally exists but it is by FAR the exception and not the rule. Ever been on a 5.11 crack? Maybe the areas you mentioned don't have as many pin scars as say Yosemite (or Red Rock, Zion, J-Tree, etc, etc.) but it's really common. Either you don't know what to look for or you didn't notice..... ignorance is bliss.
David, you need to get out more. Speaking of ignorance, yours is showing. You may have climbed longer than I do, but... 5.11 cracks at IC covered in pin scars? Yeah right.
Icemoose, I'm not interested in responding here. I've said all I need to say on this thread back in its last reincarnation. The whole thread was a waste of time the first time. Oh, and I'm on a conference call at work where I mostly need to listen, so no, I'm not stealing from my employer (at the moment).
Here's the most I'll say to this undead subject: Some areas are heavily chipped, some not at all. Some crags you can climb bottom to top, and the lines require very little, others are a nightmare. The only constant is that most users of established crags with guidebooks seem completely clueless about what ethics are in place there.
GO
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david_smithrock
Oct 16, 2006, 6:47 PM
Post #239 of 323
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Sorry, one last point. In reply to: And lets not even get into crack climbing! It's hard to find a crack 5.11 or harder that doesn't rely on pin scars. Ever been to Indian Creek? Vedauwoo? South Platt? Fremont Canyon? Etc... That statement shows an obvious ignorance. In most crack climbing areas I have been to what you are saying occassionally exists but it is by FAR the exception and not the rule. Ever been on a 5.11 crack? Maybe the areas you mentioned don't have as many pin scars as say Yosemite (or Red Rock, Zion, J-Tree, etc, etc.) but it's really common. Either you don't know what to look for or you didn't notice..... ignorance is bliss. David, you need to get out more. Speaking of ignorance, yours is showing. You may have climbed longer than I do, but... 5.11 cracks at IC covered in pin scars? Yeah right. Icemoose, I'm not interested in responding here. I've said all I need to say on this thread back in its last reincarnation. The whole thread was a waste of time the first time. Oh, and I'm on a conference call at work where I mostly need to listen, so no, I'm not stealing from my employer (at the moment). Here's the most I'll say to this undead subject: Some areas are heavily chipped, some not at all. Some crags you can climb bottom to top, and the lines require very little, others are a nightmare. The only constant is that most users of established crags with guidebooks seem completely clueless about what ethics are in place there. GO
If the number of 5.11 or harder cracks listed in your profile is any indication, I'd say you aren't an authority on the subject I was referring to.
My original post was about Smith. I never said anything about routes in IC being covered in pin scars.
You have a desk job in MA and you're telling me to get out more? :lol:
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azenari
Oct 16, 2006, 7:09 PM
Post #240 of 323
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No to all.
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cracklover
Oct 16, 2006, 9:51 PM
Post #241 of 323
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In reply to: My original post was about Smith. I never said anything about routes in IC being covered in pin scars.
No, but you responded to someone who said IC (among others) was an example of an area that wasn't chipped, by stating that there may not be "as many pin scars... but it's really common." And that he "didn't know what to look for". Hmm, I'm pretty damn sure I know the difference between a scar from a cam tracking out in soft sandstone and a pin scar, but why don't you enlighten us about all the pin scars in IC. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, just reading what you wrote. If it's not what you meant, cool, just say so, and we can move on. Basically, the fact is that some areas are chipped, some aren't, and there's plenty of area in between. Some sportos would like to believe that all areas are chipped, because it makes the ethical issue go away.
In reply to: You have a desk job in MA and you're telling me to get out more? :lol:
Ouch! You've got me there!
Oh, and no, I haven't climbed that many 5.11 finger cracks. Funny, most of those I've done have been FA's, though. And I can tell you, they weren't chipped!
I can't believe I've been roped into battle on an undead thread. I'm out of here. Any other comments to me should be PMed. Post 'em here and I won't see 'em.
GO
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crackaddict
Oct 16, 2006, 10:18 PM
Post #242 of 323
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Registered: Jun 24, 2000
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1. Gay
2. Really gay
3. In this case. Instead of manufacturing a route by chipping and drilling pockets. Drill a sequence of sleeve anchors,. Then gather up all your favorite plastic holds and make a really outdoor gym route.
Then get a pink leotard and a cape with a big SG on it.
Then you could be the SUPER GAY CLIMBER on a SUPER GAY ROUTE! :lol:
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crackaddict
Oct 16, 2006, 10:19 PM
Post #243 of 323
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Registered: Jun 24, 2000
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1. Gay
2. Really gay
3. In this case. Instead of manufacturing a route by chipping and drilling pockets. Drill a sequence of sleeve anchors,. Then gather up all your favorite plastic holds and make a really outdoor gym route.
Then get a pink leotard and a cape with a big SG on it.
Then you could be the SUPER GAY CLIMBER on a SUPER GAY ROUTE! :lol:
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crackaddict
Oct 16, 2006, 10:23 PM
Post #244 of 323
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Registered: Jun 24, 2000
Posts: 1279
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1. Gay
2. Really gay
3. In this case. Instead of manufacturing a route by chipping and drilling pockets. Drill a sequence of sleeve anchors,. Then gather up all your favorite plastic holds and make a really COOL outdoor gym route.
Then get a pink leotard and a cape with a big SG on it.
Then you could be the SUPER GAY CLIMBER on a SUPER GAY ROUTE! :lol:
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cjsimpso
Oct 17, 2006, 3:37 AM
Post #245 of 323
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No need to get all preachy in an already worthless thread, but you can check out my thoughts on ignorant /disrespectful comments here.
Thanks.
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chossmonkey
Oct 17, 2006, 12:29 PM
Post #246 of 323
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In reply to: 1. Gay 2. Really gay 3. In this case. Instead of manufacturing a route by chipping and drilling pockets. Drill a sequence of sleeve anchors,. Then gather up all your favorite plastic holds and make a really COOL outdoor gym route. Then get a pink leotard and a cape with a big SG on it. Then you could be the SUPER GAY CLIMBER on a SUPER GAY ROUTE! :lol:
HOLY CRAP!!!
I think you just opened a can of worms you never intended to, x3!!! :shock:
I think the politically correct term would be "French".
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theicemoose
Oct 18, 2006, 3:14 AM
Post #247 of 323
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The "defenders of the faith" are getting broadsided by this assertion that there are no unscarred, put-up-onsight 5.11 (and for that matter 5.12, and so on) cracks out there. I've climbed personally at least a hundred of them in the last three years (red rocks has been good to me). Out this way, pinscarring takes place most commonly on big wall routes that have eventually been freed, often by variations that bypass crumbly, pinned up cracks by way of bolt protected faces, which tend, surprisingly enough, not to be chipped too much, as most of the lametastic chippos can't be bothered to carry a set of draws and a cord up to the trail to Potasi, in fear of putting on weight in their legs; a three hour approach with rack and haulbag is a near-guaranteed chip-free barricade, barring all but the most motivated hangdoggers.
So the holocaust never happened, it's a total rumor. And every route in the world is chipped, because there is a chisel, crowbar, and bosch in the chalkbag of all diehard traditionalist gear climbers intent on having a fun day exploring with friends. And John Gill is 18 feet tall, with six arms and chalk for blood. Does anyone else's version of reality ever intrude on these pipedreams? Until Joe Herbst admits to chipping Straight Shooter (old-school, splitter tips crack 5.9+, put up in 1975, in boots, on passive pro), I think I'm going to come to the logical conclusion that some egomaniacal Boschhounds are out of their skulls, and celebrate well known stellar routes in all corners of the world that stand on their own merits, not fall as a result of someone's inability to accept what is given to all of us, and foolishly botch things up for everyone else that touches that little piece of rock forever after.
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kricir
Oct 18, 2006, 3:29 AM
Post #248 of 323
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Registered: Oct 15, 2005
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1. no
2. no
3. no
Climbing is about finding the lines that will go and man playing by nature’s rules, not the other way around.
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stein_kletterer
Oct 18, 2006, 4:07 AM
Post #249 of 323
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Registered: Apr 6, 2006
Posts: 16
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No
No
Yes
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angry
Oct 18, 2006, 4:19 AM
Post #250 of 323
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I climbed FreeBlast in Yosemite this summer. While I was climbing, I was dissappointed at all the piton scars. At the same time I knew very well that I could not have been climbing without those piton scars.
I prefer a route to be pristine. I accept a piton scar here or there as they were put in for pro back in the day, not to change the nature of the route. I will say, if I lived in CA, I would quickly tire of the whole Valley thing. Piton scars are only fun the first 18 locks, after that they make me feel bad.
And to chip a route with the intention of changing it... well, I'm a small guy so I probably can't kick your ass but you're going to have to find out if I catch you chipping.
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