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ricardol
Aug 11, 2003, 8:07 PM
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Yet another question ..
This last weekend i did a practice haul. I led a pitch, setup 2 anchors on the same 3 bolts.. one to all 3 bolts for the lead line, and one off the 2 left bolts for hauling.
I fixed the haul line to the haul anchor PP
Then i setup the haul mechanism .. which was made up of a petzl rescue pulley (rated at 13kn on each side, 26kn total, for live loads) .. and a jumar on the loaded side (upside down). (my friend welson still has my pro-traxion !)
put the haul line through the jumar, through the pulley activated the jumar.
Then i switched my grigri over to the haul line, and lowered myself with the grigri back down to earth.
QUESTION.. is this the usual way of getting back down to the last anchor while soloing .. i found that lowering down with the grigri was awkward at best, and in some cases it was so hard to control the rate of descent that that i would shock load the anchor... which worried me a bit since i was being held by the teeth of the jumar! ...
.. next time i'd probably use an atc to rap ..
-- ricardo
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epic_ed
Aug 11, 2003, 8:14 PM
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Rappeling with a grigri isn't my favorite descending device (although it did save my ass on Zodiac :roll: ). It takes a while to get the hang of it. I usually use my ATC to rappel back to the previous belay. You did tie a back up knot in that haul line, didn't ya?
Ed
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passthepitonspete
Aug 11, 2003, 9:17 PM
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When I got my first car after graduating from university, I wanted a stickshift. Getting the thing into reverse was a bit tricky - you had to depress the clutch just so, and carefully jiggle the stick. If not, grrrrrrrrrind!
I once complained that the transmission was sticky, and my Uncle Harry told me,
"It is the fault of the operateur."
The same is true of rappelling with a Grigri. Although the cavers have a much bitchin'er autolock rappel device based on the Petzl Bobbin - which I've never seen nor used - the Grigri is an excellent autolock rappel device that every solo wall climber [or]any wall climber, for that matter!] should carry.
You need to kind of hold the base of your hand against the thing to steady the lever as you open it, and the key is to have the free end of the rope running smoothly around the other side, you know, the way they taught you at the gym? Rappelling with a Grigri on static line can be herky-jerky at the best of times, so practise practise practise!
Yeah, an ATC is smoother. But I still prefer my Grigri.
As for your setup of the haul line, traditional big wall technology would have you rappel your haul line from your pulley plus inverted ascender assembly, with the end of the haul line tied into the power point as backup should the cam of the ascender fail, which does happen from time to time. It's important to leave enough slack so that you can begin hauling, but not so much slack as to create a shock load should your ascender fail [unlikely]. Two to three feet is about right.
However, aficionados know that whenever the Doc writes "traditional" he really means "stupid". For instance, it was stupid of you to leave your Pro-Traxion compound pulley with your friend, however in your friend's case, the Doc applauds his cunning. If he is as clever as he appears, then he will be able to avoid returning it to you until after the wall climbing season has finished.
The Better Way is to rappel from a compound pulley that is rated for live loads. This is emphatically not the case with the now-obsolete Wall Hauler, though for years, many big wall soloists did just that, though of course backing it up as explained above.
The Pro-Traxion is OK - it is rated for live loads, uh, provided you happened to have read Petzl's emergency recall notification where they said, "oh yeah, we forgot to mention in the published instructions that the thing doesn't work unless you put a carabiner into this hole. Uh, sorry, eh?"
[You can find info on this by going to the Index to Dr. Piton Stuff, going to the pig wrestling section, and clicking on the 2:1 Hauling Ratchet post.]
The Pro-Traxion unfortunately doesn't have a very big pulley. I wouldn't want to haul [the kind of loads that I normally haul] with a Pro-Traxion. Be smart, and sell your Pro-Traxion at a discount to your so-called "friend", and apply the proceeds towards the compound pulley that wins the Wee-Wee the Big Wall Crab Seal of Endorsement - the Kong Block-Roll! [or is it "Roll-Block"...?]
Rappelling from that is, of course, the Better Way. Just remember to back it up.
There is of course another way, which I would hesitate to call "better", but which is unequivocally the safest. This is to rappel from a knot. C'est a dire, you have attached the end of the haul line directly to the power point with a transient locker, and rappel from this. After you cut your pig free, and jug and clean the pitch to return to the top of the haul line, you're ready to haul, but your haul line has all the flexibility of a steel rebar.
Now what?
Easy - stick your inverted ascender and 2:1 Hauling Ratchet Zed-Cord [which should be about three metres long as I've recommended], clip your two jugs on the other end of the Zed-Cord, and start jugging to pull up enough slack in the haul line to put the haul line through your 1:1 hauling device, which is your compound pulley.
Voila! "Ready to haul!" you think, for big wall soloists have nobody else to talk to, though some have been known to talk to themselves, or even worse, their stuffed toy mascots. Some have even been known to speak to their Inflatable Helga Dolls, though rather than saying "ready to haul," it's usually something like, "My, Helga - you're looking very sexy tonight in that new Victoria's Secret outfit I bought you..."
But that's another story altogether.
Now, as for your setting up two upper anchors, the Doc is sympathetic to your stupidity. This is because he was stupid enough to do the same for several of his big wall solos. Intuitively, you would think this would work, especially when you find your lead line reaching the upper anchors on a diagonal. So you would set up a power point anchor to take this diagonal pull, and you would set up a second hauling power point to take a straight downward pull. You would carry two cordalettes. Makes sense, eh? Hell, I did it for years.
But think about it..... The correct answer is actually counter-intuitive.
When you are jugging up to your upper station, the weight of your pigs is pulling straight down on the power point. What possible disadvantage would it be to have your lead rope anchored to the same power point, the power point you are hauling from? The answer is, none. The weight of the pig will keep the power point oriented straight down anyway, right?
So why not save yourself the effort, weight and expense of carrying two cordalettes per belay, and just use one when soloing? That's all I do any more. I have my big power point locker, and onto it I clip my transient lockers. I have my Lead Rope Transient Jugging Locker, which attaches the lead rope to the power point with [what] an Alpine Butterfly. Also on the power point are the transient hauling carabiners - a locker on your compound pulley, and possibly a locker or two on your 2:1 Hauling Ratchet.
There is one possible exception to this rule - and that is if you are merely "practising" and are not hauling a big pig. If the lead rope approaches the upper belay anchors on a diagonal, you might want to build two anchors as you suggest, with the lead rope anchor equalized to the angle of the lead rope. The second anchor could be used for hauling the pig.
I'm going to say two things.
The first is that you should be using LONG prusik sling backups to rebelay your lead rope, perhaps a half-dozen times over two hundred feet. This will completely eliminate rope abrasion [if done correctly], and will also solve the extremely annoying and dangerous problem of your lead rope slipping through your Grigri, introducing unwanted slack between you and your lower station [yikes!]. Keep the prusiks long so as not to increase your Fall Factor. Since these rebelays take your weight when you jug, you won't even weight the upper station until you've crossed the final rebelay. And there should certainly be a final rebelay close to your upper power point, especially if there are any rub spots.
In this scenario with no big pig, you could use the one power point oriented downwards, and use a rebelay just before the power point.
My second and final point [after which I'll shut up] is that you really should be practising hauling rocks when you are practising soloing! You don't want to wait until you get to the wall to find out that you only get eight or ten inches of lift on your Hauling Ratchet, and that you don't know how to use it!
Finding out that you don't know how to operate your hauling device is better discovered while practising, and not on the first pitch of your intended big wall.
And if you don't believe me, ask the man who answered directly above me.
Save yourself some heartache. Practise, dude.
I am Dr. Piton,
and I succeeded in my first attempt to solo El Cap because I paid my dues practising
[and Dr. Piton applauds your "pluck"]
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epic_ed
Aug 11, 2003, 10:06 PM
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In reply to: ...(Y)ou really should be practising hauling rocks when you are practising soloing! You don't want to wait until you get to the wall to find out that you only get eight or ten inches of lift on your Hauling Ratchet, and that you don't know how to use it! Finding out that you don't know how to operate your hauling device is better discovered while practising, and not on the first pitch of your intended big wall. And if you don't believe me, ask the man who answered directly above me. Save yourself some heartache. Practise, dude.
Uh...here, here! Yep -- get that F-er dialed if you're going to use it. My suggestion would be to practice with a variety of mechnical advantage options to see what works best for you. The hauling ratchet does have a mandatory learning curve to master in order to reap its benefit.
Epic Ed
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iamthewallress
Aug 11, 2003, 10:10 PM
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Unless you are feeling lucky and rapping/hauling at the same time without a back-up, I would fix the hauline (behind the pulley) rather than just rapping on the jug or pulley cam.
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ricardol
Aug 11, 2003, 11:13 PM
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In reply to: Unless you are feeling lucky and rapping/hauling at the same time without a back-up, I would fix the hauline (behind the pulley) rather than just rapping on the jug or pulley cam.
... umm -- yup i did do that ..
the haul line ran up through the jug, through the pulley, and then was fixed onto the anchor.
-- ricardo
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flamer
Aug 12, 2003, 1:37 AM
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I still Prefer to rap the lead line. It's much safer and cleaning on Rappel (especially using the GriGri) is sweet! Then when you jug you can just motor up the line! I wrote a thingy about a system I've used to solo with the Grigri awhile back, It's somewhere in the aid forum and is very efficient- if you are interested see if you can find it.
josh
OK I did the search it is in a thread titled "speed" from timpangos(whatever happened to that guy?) It's a very good system....give it a try...
Sorry I'm to much of a computer retar to know how to do the nifty link stuff...
josh
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lambone
Aug 12, 2003, 1:58 AM
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Regarding hauling...
I was able to leg haul 7 days worth of wall gear/food/and water with a 1:1 set up on a Pro-Traxion. And I am a wimp. This by far was the most effcient and speedy technique at the time. With twice as much hear I may have considered messing with a 2:1...
If you can't get a bag up using traditional hauling techniques, you either are doing something wrong, have way too much crap, or just shouldn't be big wall climbing, or need to pick a shorter route.
Yes, rap of the Pro-Traxion, with the haul line backed up to the main point. Dont forget the biner in the hole, and make sure it is fixed to the lower anchor.
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justsendingits
Aug 12, 2003, 2:29 AM
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I used the pro trax on a couple of walls a couple weeks ago,I was using an--11. mill. haul line,sometimes the cam will not catch if you unweight the haul line real fast.
Just like the Petz warning says on their web site for the pro trax.If you are using large sized ropes,after your leg stroke,or body haul,or whatever,slowly release the weight so the teeth on the pro trax can engage.
I had no problem with smaller ropes.
I also used a C.M.I. pulley,the big one,bigger than the pro trax,but the pro trax seemed to haul better 1-1.
I think the bearings on the pro trax are of higher quality than the CMI.
R
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passthepitonspete
Aug 12, 2003, 3:06 AM
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In reply to: "I still Prefer to rap the lead line."
This sounds good, at least in theory.....
However in practice, it might be rather difficult! While cleaning on rappel is simple and straightforward on a plumb pitch, it can be extraordinarily difficult to do on a traversing and overhanging pitch. And most aid pitches, by their very nature, are overhanging!
Try cleaning on rappel the fifth and sixth pitches of Native Son, for instance. The former traverses a fair bit, and the latter overhangs steeply. Or how about the fifth pitch on The Trip?
I emphatically disagree. Except in those rare occasions where you get a nice steep and straight line [for instance, the type of free climbing line you might use for practising aid at your local crag, because there are no "real" aid lines], you'll find it a lot more trouble than it's worth. Unless of course you make a career out of practising.
The statement above is BWT.
In reply to: It's much safer and cleaning on Rappel (especially using the GriGri) is sweet!"
Really? Do tell us why it's safer.
[Note: There is a way that it could be, at least in theory, however in practice it may be more difficult to implement than it is worth.]
More BWT?
[Excuse my sarcasm, but I tire of p*ssies who whine about being hit by dropped gear. It's a fricking big wall, wanker. Gear falls. So do rocks. Wear your helmet. And explain your BWT above, especially the bit about it being safer.]
Sheesh.
In reply to: "Just like the Petz warning says on their web site for the pro trax.If you are using large sized ropes,after your leg stroke,or body haul,or whatever,slowly release the weight so the teeth on the pro trax can engage."
Gads! Need I rant more?
OK, I will.
[rant]Don't buy a Pro-Traxion! Buy a Kong Roll-Block![/rant]
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epic_ed
Aug 12, 2003, 6:30 AM
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In reply to: I used the pro trax on a couple of walls a couple weeks ago,I was using an--11. mill. haul line,sometimes the cam will not catch if you unweight the haul line real fast.
FWIW -- I had the same thing happen to me with the Protraxion and I was using a 10mm static line. And, yes Pete, I'm buying a Kong before my next wall.
Anyone want to buy a slightly used Protraxion? Anyone? Buhler?
In reply to: Excuse my sarcasm, but I tire of p*ssies who whine about being hit by dropped gear. It's a fricking big wall, wanker. Gear falls. So do rocks. Wear your helmet. And explain your BWT above, especially the bit about it being safer.
Oh boy. Here we go...this oughta be good. :twisted:
Ed
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passthepitonspete
Aug 12, 2003, 7:00 AM
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Don't sell your Pro-Trax, Ed - keep it, and turn it upside-down on top of your pig as your Far End Hauler.
Just remember to tie an alpine butterfly knot "downstream" of the Pro-Trax, just in case.
And be sure to use two carabiners in the Pro-Trax!
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ricardol
Aug 12, 2003, 7:03 AM
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if anyone hijacks this thread and turns it onto a shouting match i'm going to bitch slap them!
.. fair warning. --
-- ricardo
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passthepitonspete
Aug 12, 2003, 7:09 AM
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Thpoken with a lithp:
"Ooooh, Ricardo, ith that a promith?"
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flamer
Aug 12, 2003, 6:43 PM
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Oh pete you silly little bitch!!
Did you read what I wrote in the other post? Something I stress is that this system is not the best for traversing routes or those that are extremely overhanging, especially those with big roofs. Maybe you should look at things before you get so quick on the draw with your longwinded typing skills.
Is it SAFER to do it this way? YES! Due to the simple fact that you are not rapping of a tooth camming device. Now you can argu that It's back up, and therefore perfectly safe, But No matter what you think "the Better way" is it is still always safer to rap off a knot fixed directly to the anchor.
Hey pete when was the last time you climbed a "real" aid line in ZION national park? Ever even look at the topos? Well guess what there are TONS of plumb line "real" aid lines there and this system has and does work well in these situations. Maybe you should step away from your beloved El cap and broaden your horizon's?
Now about the dropping gear off walls things. Wasn't it you who wrote a marathon post (no pete doesn't write long boring posts!) stating that only gumbies drop stuff off walls? As far as me being a pus*y; DUDE! ever look in the mirror? You are a wee little man who sells insurance for a living! You even screw people for a living!!
And one more issue...you really need to stop sexually harassing women on this site. I personally know of more than one who have been sent unwanted and unwelcome nude pictures of you. If this continue's you would never want to meet me again.
I know you think you are the best, and have legions of beginners pinching your nipple's and carrying all your stuff(what pus*y can't even carry their own stuff?) But you should know that there is an even bigger legion out here who think you are the biggest idiot ever to tie in.
By the way thanks for the new hook, it will work well in the Black canyon this fall.
Ricardol, Sorry if I hijacked your thread. My only suggestion to you is not to blindly use one method or another. Different things work well in different situations. Keep your mind full of different ideas it will benefit you in the long run. As I already said I apologise for the hijack.
josh
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iamthewallress
Aug 12, 2003, 7:08 PM
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In reply to: My only suggestion to you is not to blindly use one method or another. Different things work well in different situations. h
Amen. On the first pitch of the Salathe (which is a very popular free climb and therefore not the best practice pitch...I suspect that's why your gear was "bootied" from it... not that taking it was justfiable), you are nearly plumb down from the anchors, it might be easier to clean on your way down. That's what I would probably do if I was trying to solo to someplace. If I was learning how to clean on jugs to as part of a practice day, I'd have probably done exactly what you did. There are no mammoth roofs or pendulums to negotiate on the cam of your pulley. I doubt to were going to put such a giagantic shock onto your pulley teeth even with a sticky grigri that they'd shred a backed up static rope in any dangerous way. If you were super worried about it, you could fix your line past the pulley with a prussic, but I think practically speaking it would be overkill.
Also, in a three or more spread out bolt situation as you described, especially if I'm climbing with a parnter and need to hang out at the anchor to belay, I'd prefer to have adjacent powerpoints for the haul and the belay. It just makes keeping stuff more organized for me a bit easier. It's one more step, but it's a quicky, and in the long run less confusion is a time saver for me.
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glockaroo
Aug 12, 2003, 7:16 PM
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In reply to: ...cleaning on Rappel (especially using the GriGri) is sweet! Then when you jug you can just motor up the line!...
Josh,
I would submit that it is a waste of energy to carry gear up the pitch, placing it along the way, then to take it out on rappel and carry every piece right back up when jugging back to the high belay. On an involved pitch that uses up a ton of gear, you are burning a lot of energy unneccessarily (sp?).
I hope you do not take this as a flame; it is not. I applaud you for a) getting on walls in the first place and b) trying different methods and sticking with what works for you. I have a long and painful history of tendon injuries that inhibit my arms' power factor, so I take advantage of every opportunity to save energy. Compared to me, most wall climbers (not BWT, though) are like the Hubers and have "power to waste".
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epic_ed
Aug 12, 2003, 7:17 PM
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Ditto the idea about two seperate power points. It's not just a safety issue for me. More of a convenience so I can spread out the belay.
Oh, and hey guys! Look who's your new forum moderator! Y'all behave, now...
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iamthewallress
Aug 12, 2003, 7:20 PM
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glockaroo...sometimes I think it's easier to clean gear when you are not tensioning the line to which the gear is attached. The effort saved in just plucking the gear out as I go by w/o doing jug detachment shinanagans and then just doing a nice rythmic, uninterupted jug to the top can make up the difference in the effort involved in jugging w/ gear. If you are soloing, however, you can put that gear in the haul bag when you reach the bottom. You'll end up hauling a 68 lb pig instead of 60 lb one. No biggy.
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flamer
Aug 12, 2003, 9:37 PM
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AH HA! Melissa beat me to the punch! I agree with glock's statement about carrying the gear twice...it's a good point. And I was going to respond with the same statement Melissa made about just hauling it. It's nice to see so many DIFFERENT people with quality input!
Carry on!
josh
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lambone
Aug 12, 2003, 10:54 PM
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1:
As far as cleaning on rappel:
I agree that it depends on the circumstance.
Gloockaroo, says that it is a waste of energy to carry the gear back up the pitch. Of course...but why would you do that? Just clip it to the pig and haul it...DUH. :roll: (ooopps, wallress said that allready...)
I mix it up, sometimes I will clean peices on the rappel if it will make jugging easier, removing the need to lower out and such. But most of the time I leave the gear because I prefer to be close to the wall when jugging...just a mental thing I guess.
More ofthen than not I will clove hitch the lead line to pieces on the way down if possible to reduce rope stretch and abrasion over edges and such when jugging...which is definately the "SMART WAY" to go about it.
2:
One thing regarding the Pro-Traxion,
I found it slips (fails to cam) less (or never) if you anchor the device with a sling that will give it some mobility. If it has the degree of freedom to rotate it engages much better.
On one pitch I clipped it directly into a fat bolt. BAD IDEA...it slipped with almost evry haul. That was the last time I did that. I still haul of of one good bolt, but use a doubled sling to attatch the device.
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passthepitonspete
Aug 12, 2003, 11:07 PM
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In reply to: "I still haul off of one good bolt, but use a doubled sling to attach the device.
Please tell us, mate, that you have backed up your hauling point with a nearly-taut sling to one or more [also apparently-bombproof] anchors beside or above your single bolt.
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lambone
Aug 12, 2003, 11:14 PM
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why, you think a haul is going to tear an 3/8 ASCA bolt out of the wall. You are probably more likely to break your haul device locker...
but yes, I back everything up. 8)
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passthepitonspete
Aug 12, 2003, 11:26 PM
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OK, OK, just checkin', mate.....
We Wall Doctors are concerned about such technicalities.
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lambone
Aug 12, 2003, 11:34 PM
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good point :wink:
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