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wallmonkey
Aug 22, 2003, 8:24 PM
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I just wanted to know everyones opinion on the Access Fund. How many here are memebers of the Access Fund????
Thanks.
:D
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toonarmy
Aug 22, 2003, 8:35 PM
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I am. But they still haven't sent me the t-shirt.
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rrrADAM
Aug 22, 2003, 8:45 PM
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I donate generously twice per year. Have 6 shirts, and give the stickers away now, and post the monthly AF E-Newsletter to this Forum.
I also have donated to the ASCA.
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wigglestick
Aug 22, 2003, 8:52 PM
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They give away shirts? I have been a member for almost 10 years and give 1% of my salary to them through a program we have here at work and never got no stinking shirt.
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maculated
Aug 22, 2003, 9:06 PM
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They do have shirts. The one I got was nasty, I gave it away.
I'm a member. Thank God they send new stickers. My other one was looking pretty ratty.
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bradmc
Aug 29, 2003, 4:30 AM
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i donate at every chance i get; trail days and slide shows and also do the annual membership gig.
the access fund has donated big grants every year to crags in my area so i try to do a little bit to help them out too.
without the AF; one of my favorite crags would be a subdivision with the rocks turned into road gravel.
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moabbeth
Aug 29, 2003, 5:29 AM
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I joined last year. Donated again a few months ago.
I think I got a shirt.
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mungeclimber
Aug 29, 2003, 6:50 AM
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Devoted to AF
Only org working to preserve climber rights on a national scale.
It's all political, so we need a political arm.
Donate now. Check their site out for reasons why. Look at what they've done over the last 10 years for climbers.
no question, do it.
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just_me
Sep 3, 2003, 6:42 PM
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If you join the AF, a basic membership is $35. For that you get the satisfaction of knowing that you are helping to preserve climbing. For $50, you also get a t-shirt. It is part of their incentive program. The more money you donate, the more schwag you can get.
Wiggie, if you really want a t-shirt, just call them up and explain your situation. I am willing to bet you would readily get one for donating money.
By the way, they are now giving away a really cool shirt with the “Mandala” design. It is much better than the “angel” t-shirts they were giving out before! Check out this page to see the t-shirt:
http://www.accessfund.org/...chandise_afgear.html
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tahquitztwo
Sep 3, 2003, 6:53 PM
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Ditto for Access Fund. I've seen many instances of what they help support for those of us who enjoy climbing. I donate to them when I have extra pesos......
if you're a person who enjoys getting out on those rocks no matter what kind of climbing you do...help support the Access Fund. 8)
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drkodos
Sep 3, 2003, 7:02 PM
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The Access Fund is a fraud.
Talk to people that have REAL dealings with them.
They do not represent climbers.
Search through the forums to find some real info about these corportae blood suckers.
Do not believe the hype and propaganda that they generate.
They have caused more harm than good. The truth is out there, but difficult to find because people on this site are threatened by the truth, and do their best to bury anyone that doesn't fall into lockstep agreement.
The AF is for Mental Midgets that want to alleviate their own guilt.
Most of the biggest donators are the largest reasons why we have access problems to begin with. Self serving, self aggrandizing, rectal pores that believe they have a "right" to climb.
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leemeans
Sep 3, 2003, 7:24 PM
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<----Access Fund Member & Southeastern Climbers Coalition member!
Climb on!
-lee
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dave1970
Sep 3, 2003, 7:26 PM
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In my opinion, your contributions would be much more effectively used if given to a more local organization. Some suggestions would be ASCA, Utah Open Lands Alliance, Eldo Preservation Society, and Flatirons Climbing Council.
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madriver
Sep 3, 2003, 7:27 PM
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In reply to: The Access Fund is a fraud. Talk to people that have REAL dealings with them. They do not represent climbers. Search through the forums to find some real info about these corportae blood suckers. Do not believe the hype and propaganda that they generate.
...be specific....what are you talking about?....try Rumney, NH ....and the countless other areas they have purchased, preserved for climbing, or are working to gain access to. Do you belong? Do you have evidence that they are the Rat Bastards you portray?....hello....
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drkodos
Sep 3, 2003, 7:38 PM
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I have plenty of hard evidence, and have detailed it here previously. It should still be lurking in the archives somewhere.
No, I am not a member and with good reason.
And yes, I have dealt with them as a Land owner.
The Access Fund is a bunch of lawyers, tied to corporate culture. They sleep with the large Outdoor companies.
They invest climbers money in Annuities (with themselves as beneficiaries!) and use very little, if any to actually purchase land. They instead, try to wrangle private owners into making the purchases after they have driven the market price through the roof. Take a look at the income statements and you will see that very, very little $ is actually used for their stated purpose. But yet, they buy new vehicles for themselves to drive to their meetings.
They are all drawing nice salaries --far greater than any average climber will make. They have a large building and land that they own that is not used for climbing.
When they had a big level meeting in the Gunks a few years back, many stayed in the Mountain House (over $300/night), drove rented jeep Cherokees ($79/day) and billed it all to the Fund.
A bunch of spoiled rich brats that have found a way to bilk climbers so that they can live their dreams. I personally know members of their board that could'nt give a rat's behind if you and I ever get to climb squat. Born with Silver spoons in their mouths, as long as THEY get to climb, that's all that really matters.
Think about this:
Should't their real goal to be to eliminate themselves? and their need to exist?
Instead, they, like all corps, are in expansion mode. Trying to acquire greater amounts of capital to invest.
As posted above, there are better, more honest and faithful organizations to donate to, but in the end I donate to no one.
It is behavior we need to change, not access. Almost all access issues are avoidable if people only knew how to behave, and respect private property.
And for every "win" they crow about, they have three "loses" they never let you know about.
They have caused more closures than openings. They antagonize and harass private land owners and threaten them with frivolous lawsuits. They are bullies, plain and simple. Lawyers, masquerading as climbers, and acting as land bullies.
Believe what you will, but always remember : The Masses are A$$es
Just getting back from the Gunks, where I own land, and seeing High Ranking members of the Access Fund climbing out at SkyTop, which is officially closed. Nice to see that their connections allow them to continue climbing on land that is closed to the rest of us (supposedly...and that's another subject altogether.)
If you want to make a difference, then do so. Sending them money is a waste of resources. Do what I did. Cut the check, but for the land itself, not the Af, and control access as an individual.
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madriver
Sep 3, 2003, 7:57 PM
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In reply to: They invest climbers money in Annuities (with themselves as beneficiaries!) and use very little, if any to actually purchase land. They instead, try to wrangle private owners into making the purchases after they have driven the market price through the roof.
.........how can they inflate real estate values without acctually purchasing the propertiy or adjacent property themselves?
In reply to: The Access Fund is a bunch of lawyers, tied to corporate culture. They sleep with the large Outdoor companies.
...o.k...as much as I hate lawyers...I don't have a problem working with any corporate sponsor that is willing to donate money to this cause?
In reply to: They are all drawing nice salaries --far greater than any average climber will make. They have a large building and land that they own that is not used for climbing.
...you don't know the average median salary for climbers...please...I'm glad they own land and have a bldg....!
In reply to: Instead, they, like all corps, are in expansion mode. Trying to acquire greater amounts of capital to invest.
....and this is bad because......?.....they can purchase more land....generate more fund raising to do same?
....it sounds like you may have had a piece of property they were interested in ...but would not relent to your demands....say a an over inflated value on worthless property? I feel I can accuse you of this in much the same way you accuse them. Prove me wrong...your blanket statements are just that with out specifics.
Bob
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drkodos
Sep 3, 2003, 8:06 PM
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Wrong...do your homework. Check previous posts, some as recent as March/april this year. Check their own income statements.
They spend the most $$$ on advertising and acquiring new members.
They spend more $$$ on their headquarters than anything else.
They spend very little, if any, on what they claim.
They get into competitive bidding with land owners, and then bow-out at the last minute, leaving an individual to foot the bill. They did NOT do this to me. They have done this to numerous others. THis is fact. Please do your homework!
They have no real intention of spending their hard given $$$ on land aquisition. They manipulate individuals to do their bidding for them.
It's all a matter of record. If you don't wan't to do the work, don't throw stones at someone who has.
DO YOUR HOMEWORK!!
Talk to people about Horsen 40 and what they did there.
It is not a personal issue. It a real issue that as a climber for over 30 years, I have learned about, piece by piece. Hard to extoll all that it took me 30 years to learn in a brief internet post.
Clearly you want to believe in them, so go right ahead. I'm not going to try to convince anyone at this point.....ciao!
One day, you may be wise enough to see what they are really doing. Until then, happy climbing!
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madriver
Sep 3, 2003, 8:23 PM
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In reply to: They get into competitive bidding with land owners, and then bow-out at the last minute, leaving an individual to foot the bill. They did NOT do this to me. They have done this to numerous others. THis is fact. Please do your homework!
....I still find it hard to believe that the properties that AF is after are "Hot Properties" where bidding wars occur. I can belive that adjacent land owners that find out that AF is interested in purchasing said property would bid it up to help the value of there adjacent properties.
If you are correct in your assertion about AF I will be the first to jump ship. However, your statements of discontent are not enough for me. As far as their Income Statements (personal)I really don't care..I don't know how much more homework I will do on AF....but until others substantiate your claims I'll stick with them.
Bob
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drkodos
Sep 3, 2003, 8:31 PM
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My claims have already been substantiated by others on this board, and in the larger, and real world.
Check previous posts!
Someone even posted the income statements.
It is all there in Black and White.
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dave1970
Sep 3, 2003, 8:35 PM
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I posted the links to the TAX RETURNS.
http://documents.guidestar.org/2001/943/131/2001-943131165-1-9.pdf
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madriver
Sep 3, 2003, 9:01 PM
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.....so the director of a National Fund Raising Org. like Af...making 68,000 a year is excessive?
...hey Molder...when do we find the aliens?
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drkodos
Sep 3, 2003, 9:06 PM
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Yes, it is excessive, especially since he has other sources of income, and works minimally at the job.
You should check his personal tax statements.
How much did he give...Oh my, he only took!
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madriver
Sep 3, 2003, 9:19 PM
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In reply to: Yes, it is excessive, especially since he has other sources of income, and works minimally at the job.
....do you know how much time and effort he puts into AF? As far as the 68 grand...we will agree to disagree.....this is well within what I would consider fair compensation for administering a org. such as AF. I really don't care what or where else he generates income from...God Bless...as far as what he gives....obviously a great amount of his life. I tend to be on the cynical side myself.....however ...I am on a fund raising board myself.."Swing for the Cure" http://www.swingforethecure.org/
....and have some knowledge of what it takes to do Fund Raising (on a much smaller scale)....unless the AF is as egregious as say the United Way..and they do not appear to be anywhere close....I think I'll stick with them.
Bob
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drkodos
Sep 3, 2003, 9:35 PM
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Yes I do know, because I know him personally and used to climb with him.
As well as climb, hang-out with and even went to school with some of the other board members, most of which remain friends although we do not agree on the AF.
There is an inherent problem with all fund raising that perhaps you are not aware of....
The original mission ALWAYS becomes compromised, because the need for self survaival of the organization becomes greater than the need to solve the problem they originally set out to address.
It is apparent in ALL fund raising groups. Period.
It has been discussed, studied, and written about by greater minds than ours.
The Access Fund is a fraud. There is no reason for them to exist. Their goal should be to disband, not grow larger.
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dave1970
Sep 3, 2003, 9:37 PM
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madriver:
68000 plus undisclosed 503(B) annuity benefits for an organization that is only taking in about 800,000 per year is offensively high. That exceeds 8.5% of the AF total take for the year.
How much do you guys pay your executive director?
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drkodos
Sep 3, 2003, 9:42 PM
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Don't bother him with the facts....his mind is already made up.
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wigglestick
Sep 3, 2003, 9:50 PM
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In reply to: If you want to make a difference, then do so. Sending them money is a waste of resources. Do what I did. Cut the check, but for the land itself, not the Af, and control access as an individual.
Well, you obviously make more money than the average climber does yourself. Not everybody can afford to just "cut a check" and solve a problem. Maybe you can, but the rest of us have to rely on larger organizations in order to make our 50 dollars a year worth more than 50 dollars a year. I see your point drkodos, but the same things could be said for every charity. Every charity should make its own existence useless but that rarely happens. So tell me drkodos what should I do with my 50 bucks next year?
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drkodos
Sep 3, 2003, 9:54 PM
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It took me over twenty years to save the money.
Take your $50 and do something nice for your wife and kids.
Teach them how to not depend on organizations to do their bidding.
Teach them that actual human behavior in the right direction is more powerful than any $50 check.
Almost all Access Issue that the fund gets involved with are 100 % avoidable. They stem from people overstepping their bounds and infringing upon the rights of others.
There are certainly more noble and worthy causes to support than rock climbing, which in the scheme of life, is a rather selfish pursuit, no?
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madriver
Sep 3, 2003, 10:20 PM
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In reply to: Don't bother him with the facts....his mind is already made up.
....these are facts......?
In reply to: The original mission ALWAYS becomes compromised, because the need for self survaival of the organization becomes greater than the need to solve the problem they originally set out to address. It is apparent in ALL fund raising groups. Period.
In reply to: 68000 plus undisclosed 503(B) annuity benefits for an organization that is only taking in about 800,000 per year is offensively high. That exceeds 8.5% of the AF total take for the year.
....acctually he governs a Fund listing over 2.5 million in total assets..and no I don't find the 68 grand offensive
Bob
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drkodos
Sep 3, 2003, 10:23 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Don't bother him with the facts....his mind is already made up. ....these are facts......? In reply to: The original mission ALWAYS becomes compromised, because the need for self survaival of the organization becomes greater than the need to solve the problem they originally set out to address. It is apparent in ALL fund raising groups. Period. In reply to: 68000 plus undisclosed 503(B) annuity benefits for an organization that is only taking in about 800,000 per year is offensively high. That exceeds 8.5% of the AF total take for the year. ....acctually he governs a Fund listing over 2.5 million in total assets..and no I don't find the 68 grand offensive Bob
Then you, my friend, are clearly part of the problem.
The fund only takes in $800,00/year and he grabs over 5%! That is a greater amount per year than they've ever spent on land aquisition!
Take a look at his annuities package. These guys are building their retirement nest eggs on this.
Didn't you learn anything from Enron?
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brutusofwyde
Sep 3, 2003, 10:45 PM
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I feel that the Access Fund is a worthwhile organization.
I am proud the be a member, and participate in volunteer projects as well as donate to the A.F.
Also volunteer for and donate to the ASCA and several other climbing-related organizations.
Brutus
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dave1970
Sep 4, 2003, 2:10 PM
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....acctually he governs a Fund listing over 2.5 million in total assets..and no I don't find the 68 grand offensive
Bob
Bob,
Look on page 3 line 59B of the linked tax return. It shows total assets of 585,641. It is not 2.5 million.
You are either very lazy or financially illiterate. I think I will go with the latter.
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madriver
Sep 4, 2003, 4:51 PM
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..?...
Definitions
Revenue: Money that the organization has received from contributions, grants, the performance of services, etc.
Expenses: Total amount spent on programs, administration, and fund-raising.
Assets: All income received and property owned by the organization.
Liabilities: All expenditures paid and debts owed by the organization
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dave1970
Sep 4, 2003, 5:00 PM
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Goodness Bob,
You certainly are financially illiterate. You are thoughtful, however, for highlighting in black your total ignorance of the difference between a balance sheet and an income statement.
Reference the specific line numbers from the linked tax return in the future. That is if you actually have any factual statements that you would like to attempt to make on the subject.
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drkodos
Sep 4, 2003, 5:08 PM
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Bob needs to believe.
It would rock his world, and make him realize possibly much of his other beliefs are misguided if he were to realize the error of his ways.
Remember: "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"
Some people really prefer to stay in the cave, while others don't even realize they are in the cave.
Most people need to cling to their beliefs, and when a person has a personal and vested interest in something, it often become impossible for them to accept that they could be mistaken. They build layers and layers of rationalizations on top of their error so that it cannot possibly be revealed to them.
Usually I stay in these posts for umpteen pages, bringing out all the aces, but in the end I guess very little changes.
People mis-read, mis-interpret, and mistake the facts, all in their vain attempts to not have to question what they think they know.
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madriver
Sep 4, 2003, 5:19 PM
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In reply to: You certainly are financially illiterate. You are thoughtful, however, for highlighting in black your total ignorance of the difference between a balance sheet and an income statement.
...I'll let you keep diggin your own hole...
drkodos....your blanket generalized statements are just that...I really don't know why I'm defending AF....their Tax return and Guidestar Financials do not seem offensive TO ME.....if you have a problem with them....than we agree to disagree. From MY perspective...the amount of time and effort and money that they DO apply to THE ISSUE of Access and Education is more than worthwhile. I am not bitter if the people who spent or spend a good portion of their lives to further their cause recieve compensation for same. YOU may have a problem with this...I do not...if on the other case said directors are blatently raping the public through a shame organization I would oppose...this does NOT appear to be the case with AF.
Peace
Bob
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drkodos
Sep 4, 2003, 5:34 PM
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Bob, these people are not spending very much time.
Have you been to any of their meetings like I have?
Do you go to their "gatherings?"
Do you have any real first hand knowledge, or just a set of "feelings."
You are being fooled.
Tell me, specifically then, just what the A$$hole Fund has done for you?
Or for that matter, tell me something specific that they have done positive for climbing?
You keep asking for proof and when it is presented to you, you dismiss it. Therefore I ask YOU for something tangible other than your feelings.
I have firsthand knowledge of how these guys manipulate other people into spending money.
Their finacial statements are very telling. They are not spending money on the issues they claim.
They are investing in Annuities for their own retirements.
They are responsible for the CLOSINGS of areas.
They antagonizae local land owners, threaten them with being tied up in the courts if they don't comply and they are sleeping with the larger outdooor companies to grow the sport so that THEY, not us, can have bigger cars, houses and better lives.
You seem reasonably smart and intelligent. Can't you realize that that AF is not neccessary at all? That what they do is a smokescreen that allows climbers to continue acting in a irresponsible manner? It allows people to stay unaccountable for their behaviors.
Perhaps you can't, or don't want to see the truth. You keep relying on your feelings instead of your intelligence.
That is a mistake, because emotions change but 2+2 always equals 4.
Good luck in your own Fund Raising (Jeeez, maybe that's why you won't capitulate, because then you realize your own org is headed in the same direction).
Have fun climbing.
Be safe.
Do the right thing.
and one more: How can you have an Iconclast such as "Bluto" in your sig and not realize what he stands for?? QUESTION EVERYTHING!!
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fredbob
Sep 4, 2003, 6:55 PM
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I carefully reviewed the entire 2001 return posted. It does not support a single "point" that "drkodas" tries to make. If the Access Fund were an individual, I would imagine the process server would be knocking at drkodas' door for his malicious and clearly libelous attack.
As the return clearly shows, all of the AF's Board Members travel and attend meetings on their own dime (none had any expense reimbursements). Board Members not only donate a tremendous amount of their time, but in addition to financial donations, pay for airfare, hotel (if they want to stay in The Mountain House at the Gunks for $300 per night at their own expense, who are you to complain!), food, etc., etc., etc.
In addition to Board Members, there is a whole network of Regional Coordinators (local volunteers) who work on regional access problems, work with local climber organizations, and often are the contact points for local land managers/owners. They get paid nothing for what is really a time consuming, part-time job.
The small staff of the AF is generally paid pretty low wages for full time++ job. As shown on the return, the salaries of these people are allocated to either services toward the AF's mission or to management/fundraising. The percentage of time and money allocated to fundraising is VERY LOW compared to most non-profits.
Drkodas: Please do not climb at the many areas that the AF has provided money and volunteers to build trails, bathrooms, brochures, signs, biological studies, promoting low impact education, cash grants to many local climber groups, and money/support/time (all cost money) to purchase climbing areas, parking areas, and easements. This may mean you will have to stay home and spend your time writing more venomous lies and posting them on the internet, where any fool can make themselves heard.
I am proud to be a member of the Access Fund and proud to contribute money and time every year to the AF. All AF members should feel proud that climbers have a voice and an organization that supports us all (even if we disagree as to certain issues).
Drkodas: Obviously you have personal issues with the AF. I don't necessarily agree with everything the AF has done over the years, but by FAR they have been an effective and positive force in climbing. And with the pundits in the media out on the attack again against climbing (e.g. Time Magazine), climbers should contribute more time and money to local organizations and the Access Fund.
Isn't it curious that as the environment comes under attack by the special interests in Washington (logging, grazing, mineral extraction, Clean Air Act) public attention is diverted to the "real" threat that climbers present to the balance of nature?
Randy
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hugepedro
Sep 4, 2003, 7:45 PM
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In reply to: Most people need to cling to their beliefs, and when a person has a personal and vested interest in something, it often become impossible for them to accept that they could be mistaken.
Drkodos,
Not meaning to offend, I enjoy many of your posts, but you are clearly the one with a HUGE ax to grind here. Obviously, you feel you have been wronged by the Access Fund. My advice to you: let it go, man, count backwards slowly from 10, and just let it go. :wink:
In reply to: Tell me, specifically then, just what the A$$hole Fund has done for you?
Preserved one of my favorite climbing areas with a $30k grant used to purchase the land from private landowners then donate it to the state park for management under stipulation that climbing shall be allowed forever.
I am aquainted with a Regional Coordinator, and I have a pretty good idea of how much effort he puts into it (close, if not more, than a full time job's worth of time) - without compensation. His talents and efforts in dealing with local access issue have kept our areas open. He is very good at what he does we appreciate him greatly.
You seem to have this idea that climbers give their guilt money to the Access Fund and do nothing else. Most of the climbers I know who are Access Fund members also volunteer their time on projects, and belong to their local crag organization, and get involved. Explain to me how that is bad for climbing?
Organization is power, my friend, and climbers need power these days. The Access Fund is a body that represents us on a national level. While I agree with all your points about the need for individuals to be involved and to exhibit behavior that furthers our cause, that does not get us into the halls of power where we need to have a voice.
None of the financials that have been posted look even close to being out of line to me. Your comparison to Enron is absolutely ludicrous. I would not work for the Access Fund, in any position - they don't pay enough! 68K is far below market value for that position, by at least half. That's bottom of the rung, first line manager money.
Peace.
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drkodos
Sep 4, 2003, 7:51 PM
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I guess as a professional Iconoclast, my job being the tearing away at Venerated Institutions, and the breaking of myths, I come from a different perspective.
Maybe it's an individual vs group thing as really it is not a personal axe.
They have done nothing to me except exist. And I find that to be the REAL issue for me.
Good point on the guilt money, but I believe that for every ONE that fits the model you describe, there are fifty that do not.
So, maybe in reality, I am just saddened that the AF needs to exist, and like a little boy, if I make it go away, then everything esle will be alright.
Goodnight, I am off to look for monsters under my bed.
PS.. My attacks while maybe malicious (they are not, I am just questioning their needs, are certainly not libelous. You should know this. In what way do my statements hurt the AF? By making people think about it? I would love to see the circus of this one in a courtroom..... :wink: )
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drkodos
Sep 4, 2003, 8:03 PM
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In reply to: . And with the pundits in the media out on the attack again against climbing (e.g. Time Magazine), climbers should contribute more time and money to local organizations and the Access Fund. Randy
Finally caught that red herring, slippery slope in your argument....
Let me ask you this...
How would no climbing hurt this culture?
I mean I wouldn't like it very much, and it would certainly effect YOU personally, but c'mon....
Climbing is a vain, self-serving pursuit, that adds nothing to the culture (except maybe through literature and the creation of myth)
Is it possible for you to take a more philosophical look at this pursuit/lifestyle/sport/whatever-you-wanna call it and realize that it really isn't as significant as we would like it to be?
Just wonderin, because most seem to be always focused on the minutae instead of the larger spectrum.
It's always "GIVE ME PROOF!"
then "I DON"T ACCEPT THAT AS PROOF"
Philosophically, most people pose a challenge because they will
not establish a varifiable bar for a burden of proof.
Randy, I respect your position, and as you can (hopefully now) see I am looking at it from a different set of lenses then you accuse. Not out of maliciousness or libeliousness, but as to truly question what it really is that people have to offer as their proof for why something is Good.
I appreciate deeply all those taking the time to read and respond in so thoroughly a manner.
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hugepedro
Sep 4, 2003, 8:04 PM
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In reply to: I guess as a professional Iconoclast . . .
Where can I get a job like that? What does it pay? Can I be your apprentice? Does it say "Professional Iconoclast under your name on your business card?
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drkodos
Sep 4, 2003, 8:09 PM
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In reply to: Does it say "Professional Iconoclast under your name on your business card?
Yes it does.
Adventure Exploration Photography Philosophy ICONOCLASM
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hugepedro
Sep 4, 2003, 8:35 PM
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In reply to: How would no climbing hurt this culture? I mean I wouldn't like it very much, and it would certainly effect YOU personally, but c'mon.... Climbing is a vain, self-serving pursuit, that adds nothing to the culture (except maybe through literature and the creation of myth) Is it possible for you to take a more philosophical look at this pursuit/lifestyle/sport/whatever-you-wanna call it and realize that it really isn't as significant as we would like it to be?
Dang it! I need to be working right now, and here you go taking this thread into an area that I find very interesting (although off topic - sorry everyone for taking it further off).
As you, I also see vanity and arrogance amongst climbers. Those who think they have inalienable right to climb anything and everything in whatever style they desire give me pause. But I disagree that it adds nothing to the culture. Perhaps the value isn't easily recognizeable as something tangible, but I think there is value nonetheless.
Human beings are naturally inquisitive creatures (some of us, anyway). We explore, we learn, we push our limits. This is part of what it means to be human, I think. We sailed the seas in search of new lands. We went to the moon. We will go to Mars. There is value in these adventures that goes beyond economic payback. They inspire the imagination. When Alex Lowe died there was a lot of noise from some people about how he shouldn't have been doing something so dangerous when he had a family. I disagreed. I thought there was value in his adventures. We were inspired to see one do such amazing things. Especially in this "nanny culture" age, when we are such a risk averse society, I think we need inspiration more than ever.
On a personal level, I performed a wedding ceremony for 2 of my good friends on the summit of a 14er this past weekend. It was an amazing spiritual experience for me, a feeling I will carry with me the rest of my life. I was truly inspired by the moment.
Surely one with a business card that reads "Adventure Exploration Photography Philosophy ICONOCLASM" understands the value of inspiration, no?
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taorock
Sep 4, 2003, 8:58 PM
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Drkodos,
Note: OT
I must take issue with your (troll?) statement:
"Climbing is a vain, self-serving pursuit, that adds nothing to the culture (except maybe through literature and the creation of myth)"
IMO, every activity adds to the culture. For example: If all "youth" watches TV and plays video games, it is reflected in our culture in many ways. One way, would be increased numbers of people writing video game programs. If all "youth" goes out and climbs, we have a stronger culture because people will be more self reliant, stronger and flexible (less medical bills in the future).
If I have the presence of mind to highball a boulder problem or negotiate an exposed alpine ridge sans rope, my culture is a benficiary. Everything is connected.
I believe it is not only our natural right - but our responsibility to live life beyond and aside from how others would prescribe. Yet our culture seems to thrive on people who relinquish this natural right to so called experts and pundits so they can feel comforted by conformity(bhhaaah). This is not good for our culture.
In other words, I think that your self proclaimed iconoclasm is suspect when you make generalizations and decrees as quoted above.
Cheers,
B
Edit to add this: Looks like Hugepedro and I are on the same track
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drkodos
Sep 4, 2003, 9:03 PM
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Sorry, but it is not a troll in this respect.
That is my honest feelings.
I see my own climbing the same way.
You are free to disagree, and apparently you do, but if you think it is a troll I ask that you realize it is not.
I've been climbing 30 years, and much of that time could be more productive.
If you are not inclined to see it this way....so be it.
I humbly suggest that this is a very threatening thing to most of you.
I understand one's lack of willingness to accept this.
But it is however, my point of view.
peace
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drkodos
Sep 4, 2003, 9:12 PM
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In reply to: IMO, every activity adds to the culture. For example: If all "youth" watches TV and plays video games, it is reflected in our culture in many ways. One way, would be increased numbers of people writing video game programs. If all "youth" goes out and climbs, we have a stronger culture because people will be more self reliant, stronger and flexible (less medical bills in the future).
problem with your reasoning is that it isn't that way.
if ALL went climbing who would pave the roads for us to get there?
Is this a serious statement or just an example you are using, because if this is the crux of your position, it is very weak.
If in anyway climbing contributes it is to provide outlet, like any other recreational activity. The rest of what you describe are merely tangential benefits.
Remember that climbing doesn't really build character so much as it reveals it.
Difficult to quantitatively study how successful one would be with or without climbing....
And again, I argue that climbing does contribute in the sense of literature and the creation of myth.
But climbing does not progress culture any more than playing marbles....
If anything, it takes people while in their prime years and allows them to use precious energy pursuing self important goals, by creating demons that must be chased......See: "Feeding the Rat"
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taorock
Sep 4, 2003, 9:16 PM
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DrK
More OT
No need to be sorry on my account. It is interesting. I've been climbing just a little longer than you and have never thought of it being unproductive.
Is some entity keeping track of your "productivity". Are you bound and tied and in need of rescue?
B
edit to add this: DrK posts too qick for me. This is in reply to his post before last.
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drkodos
Sep 4, 2003, 9:18 PM
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In reply to: DrK Is some entity keeping track of your "productivity". Are you bound and tied and in need of rescue? B
yes myself.
Life is so short and there is so much to experience.
serious.
maybe I do need a rescue, an "intervention".
How the (expletive deleted) would I know. :shock:
as long as it doesn't involve anal probing, I'm up for anything....
and even if....
well more on that later.......hmmmm mocha double espresso enemas....
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drkodos
Sep 4, 2003, 9:24 PM
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taorock:
maybe one day we can meet and discuss because I don't wholly disagree with you and you pose interesting positions, and from your profile you seem to be someone I really would sit and actually listen to what you have to say.
But....I must warn you that I talk faster than I type..... :lol:
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taorock
Sep 4, 2003, 9:25 PM
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DrK,
:lol: LISTEN TO ME!
You are seriously in need of an intervention.
I've "built roads" and climbed, and I must say that even though I have loved the various lines of work I've engaged, none play second fiddle to climbing.
You sound like you are wallowing.
We'll need to change your ID to Dr. "whawha Kodos.
Edit to say: Thanks for the compliment.
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drkodos
Sep 4, 2003, 9:27 PM
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not sure what wallowing is...
but I am sure going climbing tomorrow at Pardise Forks, AZ
welcome to come and perfom exorcism, or intervention, or bongalation, or whatever else.....
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taorock
Sep 4, 2003, 9:33 PM
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Sorry DrK, can't make it, gotta work - someone needs to be productive :wink:
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mutant
Sep 7, 2003, 11:59 PM
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WOW!!!!
This banter is driving me over the edge. Taorock you should know better than battle wits with the younger much smarter generation. Wake up all of you and get a serious relationship with life. How can we all get along if we are pretending to be social genius's ?? Answer..........! We can't!
Taorock....I will kick your as_ later, peace my friend.
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