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climbingjunky
Sep 18, 2003, 8:30 PM
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Just wondering how many of you out there fit in this category. If so, how long have you been climbing, and what age did you start at? Also do you climb mostly outdoors, indoors, or both. If you could summarize your style in one phrase, how would you describe it? :?
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whichwayisup
Sep 18, 2003, 8:50 PM
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On the sharp end, just shy of 5.13 ok alot short of 5.13 but when it comes to bouldering, just shy of v10 ok alot short of v10.
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trad_mike
Sep 18, 2003, 8:58 PM
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I would say that people who can consistently crank 5.13+ outdoors are geneticly blessed. I would bet there are only a few hundred people in the world outside of the pros who can call themselves 5.13c/d climbers.
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djmeat
Sep 18, 2003, 9:08 PM
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give me another year....
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climber49er
Sep 18, 2003, 10:30 PM
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I'm working a T12 right now. It's awesome.
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climbingjunky
Sep 18, 2003, 10:35 PM
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Are you calling me a troll? :cry: I'm hurt. :P
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camhead
Sep 18, 2003, 10:41 PM
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once I saw chris sharma. he is a totally down to earth guy. :D :) :( :o :lol: 8) :shock: :P
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climbsomething
Sep 18, 2003, 10:44 PM
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No.
camhead... you crack me up. Werd.
"Sharma is so mellow and chill, he'd cheer you on even on a V1, blahblablahblah!!!!!!!111"
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hangerlessbolt
Sep 18, 2003, 10:49 PM
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In reply to: I would say that people who can consistently crank 5.13+ outdoors are geneticly blessed. I would bet there are only a few hundred people in the world outside of the pros who can call themselves 5.13c/d climbers.
I could call myself a 5.13 climber…
Of course I’d be lying out of my a$$…
But I could…
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cloudbreak
Sep 18, 2003, 10:52 PM
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4.13....maybe!
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whitefingers
Sep 18, 2003, 11:03 PM
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I dont always climb .13's but just yesterday i did the first three moves on one, so in a way I guess I am a .13 climber.
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andypro
Sep 18, 2003, 11:24 PM
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I climbed a .13 once. Went at about C2+ish. lotsa hooking :wink: :lol:
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valeberga
Sep 19, 2003, 12:06 AM
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In reply to: 4.13....maybe!
I wonder what that would entail...
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valeberga
Sep 19, 2003, 12:15 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: 4.13....maybe! I wonder what that would entail...
Really really super difficult "simple climbing" with ultra-sickening poopy-pants "exposure"...
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sbclimber
Sep 19, 2003, 1:35 AM
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In reply to: cloudbreak wrote: 4.13....maybe! I wonder what that would entail... Valeberga wrote: ; Really really super difficult "simple climbing" with ultra-sickening poopy-pants "exposure"...
4.13d if you add the absence of good protection and mandatory style points that are needed on such a climb.
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herm
Sep 19, 2003, 2:15 AM
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The Sierra's are full of 4.13ds. They are the worstest ones!
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tenn_dawg
Sep 19, 2003, 2:25 AM
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I think that if I really dedicate the time, I could be a 5.13 climber.
I've been climbing now more than ever. I've worked really hard to progress into .12's. I'm talking REALLY hard. Some people this stuff comes natural to, but I really have to bust ass to make gains, but they've been coming slowly but surely. As long as I push my limits, and keep an open mind, I've never really plateaued.
I used to think I could never realistically climb in the .13 range, but just today I found myself tossing around the idea of getting on a .14 one of these days. I have no doubt that if I dedicated myself, I could at least have a legitimate shot at climbing at that level.
The thing is, my soul is getting tired of sport climbing. I'm longing for multipitch trad again.
I think in the long run, my limiting factor is going to be time, and where I really want to invest myself. A day of moderate trad climbing really isn't training for hard sport routes.
I think for me, and for most people what it comes down to is doing what you enjoy. If short hard is your style, pull down my brutha. If you like polishing off easy 5th class peaks, keep on ticking them. There's plenty out there of both, and plenty of people chasing them.
I'm just going to follow my heart, and see where I end up. Hell, I may take up shuffleboard in a couple of years. You never know...
Travis
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curt
Sep 19, 2003, 2:56 AM
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In reply to: Are you a 5.13+ or v10+ climber?
Curt
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corpse
Sep 19, 2003, 1:05 PM
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Talking about this stuff reminds of the street racing sites I've hopped on - talking about 1/4 mile times is huge no no, one that can get you banned off servers. This is why I don't spill the beans on how I can do a 5.13 (1 handed).
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norskagent
Sep 19, 2003, 1:33 PM
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V10+ = 5.14b, so a 5.13+ climber can't relate.
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blueeyedclimber
Sep 19, 2003, 1:59 PM
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Not yet, ask again in a year.
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crazygirl
Sep 19, 2003, 2:06 PM
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I thought everyone at RC.com is a 5.13 climber. Now i'm confused
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jipstyle
Sep 19, 2003, 6:35 PM
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Not yet. ;)
I've been climbing about 6 years, with a 2 year break ... :( ... mostly indoors for the first 3, then outdoor for the last year.
I started with I was about 23 or 24.
My style: tricky. :) If there's a heel hook, knee bar, toe hook, or head scum, I'll find it and use it. :D
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joshy8200
Sep 19, 2003, 7:23 PM
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Of everyone that I really know (discounting people I have met at comps or just out climbing). I know two people who are 5.13 climbers. I have two friends that climb in the low 5.12 range.
One of the 13 climbers has been climbing since he was really really young. He had repointed 11b by the time he was 11. I'm not sure when he redpointed 13, I don't think it was anything super human like 12 or 13. He's 21 or so now. The other guy is older, late 30s. Not sure how long he been climbing...a pretty good while though.
So all that story telling. I think it goes to show how you can come up at a young age developing climbing skills and muscles and excel very quickly. Or take up the sport later in life and develop through harder work and desire.
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jonf
Sep 20, 2003, 12:57 AM
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A good friend of mine climbs around V11-V12. he has done some sport climbing but not alot, Im pretty sure he's done a 5.13, but I dont know about 13+. Hes 16 right now.
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alpinerock
Sep 20, 2003, 1:13 AM
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I don't personaly, but some of my partners do. Dale goddard climbs 14's(climbing since age 16) and boulders who knows what. Tom cadwell, low 13's(since age 25). and Rob wuebecker(age 25), mid 13's and i think around V10 or so.
I know one person that I'm willing to bet money will climb 14's, my little bro, youngest dedicated climber that i know(dedicated as in climbs 3 or 4 times a week)age 10, redpoints 10b, boulders V3-4
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yosemite
Sep 20, 2003, 3:13 AM
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In reply to: The Sierra's are full of 4.13ds. They are the worstest ones!
Herm speaks the truth.
Norman Clyde Class 3 - watch out & rope up!
Norman Clyde Class 4 - way 4.13DRX!
Watch your ass!
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karlbaba
Sep 20, 2003, 3:46 AM
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The hardest thing I almost sent was 13d. I was through the crux, there was a 12b runout to the anchors. I was pumped but hanging in there and I was just about to clip the chains...
But then...
I woke up,
and, with that, I lost three number grades in ability
Peace
karl
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iridesantacruz
Sep 20, 2003, 10:22 PM
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In reply to: 4.13....maybe! |
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ikefromla
Sep 20, 2003, 11:25 PM
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yes and no. climbed a handfull of 13's... one being 13+... working some harder stuff. V10+ though? you mean V11? haven't touched V11... tried some 10's. not close to them.
been climbing almost 6 years.
my style? i TRY to emulate Tiff Campbell. "Flow before you force."
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charley
Sep 21, 2003, 12:20 AM
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In reply to: 4.13....maybe!
That's about 5.3, ya me too.
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bigfoot
Sep 21, 2003, 9:49 PM
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Everyone has a "friend" who climbs 5.47's and 5.17e's. I think people get too caught up in the ratings. Climbing is climbing and should be respected regardless of what the number is. It is a purely personal sport with mostly intrinsic rewards. I have climbed "5.9's" that were alot harder than 10d's-- outside there's really know way to know the definate rating- and inside- well, thats not climbing thats practice
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climbingjunky
Sep 22, 2003, 12:39 AM
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In reply to: Everyone has a "friend" who climbs 5.47's and 5.17e's. I think people get too caught up in the ratings. Climbing is climbing and should be respected regardless of what the number is. It is a purely personal sport with mostly intrinsic rewards. I have climbed "5.9's" that were alot harder than 10d's-- outside there's really know way to know the definate rating- and inside- well, thats not climbing thats practice
You can still respect climbing for what it is and still be interested in ratings as reference to see how well your progressing. I'm not caught up in the ratings, but it's nice to know what i climbed whether its v1 or v5 that way i know if i'm improving or not. I've climbed many 5.9s indoors and outdoors, haven't been on one that would be harder that 10d? I lead an 5.10d outdoors and, my 3rd outdoor lead, and man it wasn't easy. As far as indoor climbing not being climbing, well it's not rockclimbing but it's still climbing. I'm sure tha's what you meant. I hate when people diss other forms of climbing. Enjoy what you like. To each his own.
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climbingjunky
Sep 22, 2003, 12:40 AM
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*duplicate post*
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curt
Sep 22, 2003, 12:50 AM
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In reply to: You can still respect climbing for what it is and still be interested in ratings as reference to see how well your progressing. I'm not caught up in the ratings, but it's nice to know what i climbed whether its v1 or v5 that way i know if i'm improving or not.
You will be able to tell if you are climbing better without the use of any numbers. Things that were hard for you previously will be easier and things that were impossible before will be doable. If you can't see this progress without reference to some number that others have assigned to the climb, the "progress" is pretty meaningless anyway.
Curt
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solid
Sep 22, 2003, 1:10 AM
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yup
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alpinerock
Sep 22, 2003, 1:50 AM
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I think that all grades are very subjective, like there are V6 boulder probs. thats i've sent no problem like 3 try's max, but then there are a couple of V3's i'v been working on literlay since day one and still can't send, its all very subjective.
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curt
Sep 22, 2003, 2:08 AM
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In reply to: I think that all grades are very subjective, like there are V6 boulder probs. thats i've sent no problem like 3 try's max, but then there are a couple of V3's i'v been working on literlay since day one and still can't send, its all very subjective.
Exactly. That is the problem with grading climbs or boulder problems--especially when you try to divide the grades too finely. By definition, the more finely you try to grade things, the greater the innaccuracy of the ratings. See Schrodinger's uncertainty principle for an imperfect but relevant reference.
Curt
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alwaysforward
Sep 22, 2003, 4:00 AM
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Hence, V-Warmup, V-Medium, V-Hard.,
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godsmybelayer
Sep 22, 2003, 4:54 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: You can still respect climbing for what it is and still be interested in ratings as reference to see how well your progressing. I'm not caught up in the ratings, but it's nice to know what i climbed whether its v1 or v5 that way i know if i'm improving or not. Not to pick on indy specifically, but this is the kind of nonsense often used for chasing numbers. (i.e to see if you are improving as a climber) I find this to be largely a false argument. You will be able to tell if you are climbing better without the use of any numbers. Things that were hard for you previously will be easier and things that were impossible before will be doable. If you can't see this progress without reference to some number that others have assigned to the climb, the "progress" is pretty meaningless anyway. Curt
Wait a minute curt, aren't you the one who says you used to climb V9-V10 in your profile, back before you were almost 50, in order to let everyone know how much progress you made hanging out with superstar climbers? Does that make you a numbers chaser? Or are you just trying to let us know what level a respect to afford you? :?: Or should indy not use numbers to reference himself by until he's a better climber, or old and trying to catch a peek of his prime again? :wink:
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godsmybelayer
Sep 22, 2003, 5:05 AM
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Name: Curt Shannon
Member Since: 2002-08-26 20:37:10
Last Visited: 2003-09-21 21:36:31
Visits: 76844
From: Scottsdale, Arizona, United States
Email: curtshannon@mindspring.com
Gender: Male
RC.com Rating: 33551
Forum Posts: 2625
Hostel: Contact
Personal description: I am 47 now and have been climbing for 24 years. I prefer bouldering, but have done quite a bit of everything except alpine and ice. I grew up and began climbing in Minnesota and moved to California in 1981. I lived in the town of Joshua Tree, CA for 6 years, so I know that place pretty well. I moved to Arizona in 1992 as one of the founders of the Arizona Stock Exchange, who's president was Steve Wunsch. The AZX unfortunately no longer exists, but that is a long story. I now live in Scottsdale with my wife, Lisa, and a 6 year old son, John. I have been extremely fortunate to have climbed extensively with some tremendous climbers. (I have known and bouldered with John Gill for over 20 years. I have climbed with John Stannard frequently also over the last 20+ years, just to name a couple.) Oh, and John Sherman too, but he will climb with anybody who buys the beer. I probably bouldered V9/V10 or so at my best, which was about ten years ago. Strangely enough I am now in the best climbing shape that I have been in for some time, so I am having delusional thoughts about doing hard things again. Hope springs eternal I guess.
The only thing worse than numbers chasing......"I'm so cool" chasing mixed with "hey indy, your a numbers chaser and your not" chasing! :shock:
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curt
Sep 22, 2003, 5:10 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: You can still respect climbing for what it is and still be interested in ratings as reference to see how well your progressing. I'm not caught up in the ratings, but it's nice to know what i climbed whether its v1 or v5 that way i know if i'm improving or not. Not to pick on indy specifically, but this is the kind of nonsense often used for chasing numbers. (i.e to see if you are improving as a climber) I find this to be largely a false argument. You will be able to tell if you are climbing better without the use of any numbers. Things that were hard for you previously will be easier and things that were impossible before will be doable. If you can't see this progress without reference to some number that others have assigned to the climb, the "progress" is pretty meaningless anyway. Curt Wait a minute curt, aren't you the one who says you used to climb V9-V10 in your profile, back before you were almost 50, in order to let everyone know how much progress you made hanging out with superstar climbers? Does that make you a numbers chaser? Or are you just trying to let us know what level a respect to afford you? :?: Or should indy not use numbers to reference himself by until he's a better climber, or old and trying to catch a peek of his prime again? :wink:
Dear Stephen,
Nice job of taking my profile comments out of context, although I can't blame you completely. I perhaps should have said that I boulder B2 and then let you and your fellow grommets figure out what I meant by that.
Curt
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curt
Sep 22, 2003, 5:23 AM
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In reply to: I'm a student at Southern. I have no life outside of school and rockclimbing. I have no life. I freely accept pity gear donated to needy college students. Contact me about an address to send said gear to. Thank-you in advance, Stephen
I notice you state more than once in your profile that you have no life. Please take no offence with me for agreeing with you.
Curt
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godsmybelayer
Sep 22, 2003, 5:27 AM
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grom·met
'grä-m&t, 'gr&-
Function: noun
Etymology: obsolete French gormette curb of a bridle
Date: 1626
1 : a flexible loop that serves as a fastening, support, or reinforcement
2 : an eyelet of firm material to strengthen or protect an opening or to insulate or protect something passed through it
I am neither a grommet (At least not in the same fasion as you, lol), or ignorant of the antiquated B1-B3 bouldering grades. What I am, is sympathetic to climbers who climb 5.9-5.11 and use the grading system to gauge their progress. I know I will probably be in the 12 range until I pass my prime, and if I do breach 13, I'll probably never know it since I rarely ever check the grade, unless it was just alot easier or harder than I thought it would be and I'm dying to know! But if some upshoot wants to look at the guys in 13 and say wow he's cool....then I'll just sit back and pat him on the back and say yeah he sure is isn't he. Your going to belittle them, I'll call you on it, and you can turn your arogance and spitefullness on me. Either way your old, and you can't climb 13+. So lets let someone who can do the talkin' what do you say? :?: Oh, and by the way,by grommet are you refering to me as the 'loop' or 'link' that helps fasten, support, or reinforce my fellow climber in an emergency? I'm honored!
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kalcario
Sep 22, 2003, 5:37 AM
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*Exactly. That is the problem with grading climbs or boulder problems--*
But I thought boulder problems WERE climbs!
Your Freudian Slip is showing there Curt...
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curt
Sep 22, 2003, 5:45 AM
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Hey asshole,
I mean grommet as in gremmie in the climbing context. I may not climb 5.13+ anymore but I have certainly bouldered V10 in this calendar year. If you would like to challenge this assertion, please feel free to take up bvb on his wager. He has offered a $500 bet to anyone who can follow me on my bouldering circuit in Arizona. Put up or STFU asswipe.
Curt
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curt
Sep 22, 2003, 5:49 AM
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In reply to: *Exactly. That is the problem with grading climbs or boulder problems--* But I thought boulder problems WERE climbs! Your Freudian Slip is showing there Curt...
Joe,
As you are probably aware, I believe bouldering is a legitimate form of climbing. The lack of precision exists in both rating systems.
Curt
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godsmybelayer
Sep 22, 2003, 6:00 AM
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In reply to: There is no such thing as over moderation at RC.com. There is only moderation per se. Rockclimbing.com is perhaps best viewed as Disneyland--a family oriented site. Other sites (b.com, perhaps) are more like Sodom and Gomorrah--no holds barred. There is certainly room enough for both on the internet. Curt
Wow there curt, do you cuss like that when you take your wifey and 6 yr. old son to disney land :cry: . Lets hope not. Let's keep it PG-13 here, k buddy old friend! I know we've struck a nerve here with your pride, but I'm not challenging you, you see I really don't care how good of a climber you are. And further more since we're both not numbers chasers and hence aren't climbing to compete, why would I want to take a challenge from you? Are you trying to prove how good of a climber you are by saying I can't climb at the numbers you are? :?: I'm happy climbing as a personal challenge and experience for myself! I don't need to know I'm better than you for my personal fulfillment and ego, so I'll pass on the $500 Curtsy Cola Challenge thank-you. My whole point was your a prideful numbers chaser as well (as you've more than proved) so lay off the kid...geesh! :roll:
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curt
Sep 22, 2003, 6:16 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: There is no such thing as over moderation at RC.com. There is only moderation per se. Rockclimbing.com is perhaps best viewed as Disneyland--a family oriented site. Other sites (b.com, perhaps) are more like Sodom and Gomorrah--no holds barred. There is certainly room enough for both on the internet. Curt Wow there curt, do you cuss like that when you take your wifey and 6 yr. old son to disney land :cry: . Lets hope not. Let's keep it PG-13 here, k buddy old friend! I know we've struck a nerve here with your pride, but I'm not challenging you, you see I really don't care how good of a climber you are. And further more since we're both not numbers chasers and hence aren't climbing to compete, why would I want to take a challenge from you? Are you trying to prove how good of a climber you are by saying I can't climb at the numbers you are? :?: I'm happy climbing as a personal challenge and experience for myself! I don't need to know I'm better than you for my personal fulfillment and ego, so I'll pass on the $500 Curtsy Cola Challenge thank-you. My whole point was your a prideful numbers chaser as well (as you've more than proved) so lay off the kid...geesh! :roll:
godsmybelayer,
Actually, my son turned seven a couple of weeks ago. And I believe that chasing numbers and competition in climbing/bouldering are two different things--the latter being healthy. Hence your insinuation with reference to my current bouldering standards struck a chord with me. If you really were just trying to make fun of my reference to "V9-V10" in my profile, I will change it. Perhaps others are making the same mistake you are. Also, good choice on passing on the challenge.
Curt
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climbthedj
Sep 22, 2003, 6:40 AM
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Well, another surprisingly off-topic thread.. and it has veered off to grade chasing debate, go figure.
I actually just returned from a weekend bouldering with Curt and the AZ climbers. (which, by the way, was a blast) and unless your fingertips are made of rawhide, you're probably right to pass on the bouldering tour with Curt in Phoenix. I'm currently mourning the loss of my calluses.
As for the original topic, I am not a V10/ .13 climber yet. I hope to stick with it and see just how far I can go. And climbing style? I try to stay smooth and under control, concentrating on the movement. When that fails, flail arms and legs until they hit solid holds.
I do agree with the fact that grading systems are too finely divided. but at this point. what are ya gonna do?
cheers,
C
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noal
Sep 22, 2003, 1:25 PM
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In reply to: There is no such thing as over moderation at RC.com. There is only moderation per se. Rockclimbing.com is perhaps best viewed as Disneyland--a family oriented site. Other sites (b.com, perhaps) are more like Sodom and Gomorrah--no holds barred. There is certainly room enough for both on the internet. Curt
Isn't Curt the same guy who accused Trevor of being a dictatorial tyrant who was out of control running his own Kingdom, just because curt locked or moved one of his posts or something? Now he's spraying at people who think RC is over moderated, and leaves that thread to Cuss at someone who called his hypocracy? Don't get all ruffled about this Curt, you just seem to have diverse personality conflicts online, and somewhat of an aggression problem...I'm sure your a great guy in person aside from the fact that you look like a postal worker who had one too many cups of coffee grabed his hunting rifle and headed for the nearest roof top in your picture! But hey man if you need to talk or vent, we're here to listen, I tell you what, why don't you in your next post here just let it out, vent away man, get it all off your chest. Just don't want to hear about another sniper in the news when you can just vent on me here!!! :cry:
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pato
Sep 22, 2003, 1:58 PM
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In reply to: Hey asshole, I mean grommet as in gremmie in the climbing context. I may not climb 5.13+ anymore but I have certainly bouldered V10 in this calendar year. If you would like to challenge this assertion, please feel free to take up bvb on his wager. He has offered a $500 bet to anyone who can follow me on my bouldering circuit in Arizona. Put up or STFU asswipe. Curt
ok, i'll bet i could do it, i'll be there in december, just let me know the area, cause i've never been to arizona!!!
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curt
Sep 22, 2003, 4:50 PM
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Hehe, managed to hook a few. This trolling could become fun. Hehe.
Curt
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climbingjunky
Sep 22, 2003, 5:13 PM
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First of all what's the matter with being a number chaser? Not that I ma in climbing. But as an ex hockey player, I loved the sport but i also enjoyed setting a goal to score 20+ goals in a season. It's something that I challenged myself with and look forward to doing? This doesn't mean I don't enjoy the sport for what it is. I know looking at gradings is not the only way to reference your progress but is it not safe to say that a climber sending v5/6 is most likely better than someone sending v0s or v1s? Am I totally out of whack in saying this? Generally is does take more technique and strength to climb higher grades. That's all I'm saying. Geesh! :?
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tenn_dawg
Sep 22, 2003, 5:35 PM
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curt,
This damn wager that bob's got going is getting my interest. It seems like everyone is just being a blow hard, and never really standing behind their BS.
I'm going to try and come through your neck of the woods in the early summer of '04, and if by some incredible fluke in the banking system, or by robbing a convenience store, I manage to scrape together $500 of disposable income, I just may be tempted.
I'll probably just put a bottle of whiskey down as my bet though. I'll be going through the RRG, before then, I can stop in Bourbon, county KY and pick up something for the wager...anything you would prefer?
Travis
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mreardon
Sep 22, 2003, 5:39 PM
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In reply to: Hehe, managed to hook a few. This trolling could become fun. Hehe. Curt
Hey Dickweek - the quote is "I'll be your huckleberry." :lol: Wow, it is fun to troll! Where's that Kalcario.... BTW - I didn't know $500 was on the line! I should have gone to AZ after all!
As for the original question, I can fall on all ratings, and once in a while I make it to the anchor or mantel out. Sometimes those ratings are considered stout.
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rocknalaska
Sep 22, 2003, 5:46 PM
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Everyone gets their panties in a bunch here becase some people tell themselves the reason they climb is for the spiritual aspect, when really they are closet ego-maniacs and chase numbers like everyone else. All they really need is to look a little closer at themselves and relax. I chase numbers, but not exclusively. I'm proud that I chase numbers. And yes even trad, alpine, ice, old-school, and new-school all chase numbers. Maybe not in the same fashion, but still numbers.
I've climbed with alot of people, and my own perspective on this is simple. I like to climb things that are difficult for me. So yes I chase numbers because they tend to indicate how difficult something will be for me. I also love to climb lines that are aesthetic. A proud line is always inspiring. So I climb these as well. The climbs that I really love are the ones that entail both. I also love to climb anything. I love climbing, so when I run out of steam on the hard stuff, I'll do as much easier climbing as I can.
Now back to the Original post. Yes I climb at both of those levels. I've been climbing since '95. I hope to progress beyond that level soon, but I am limited by family, location, job,etc. so it may take longer than I would like. I am not genetically gifted. I weigh about 195 and am 5'10". On the heavy side for my size. I am very analytical and physics based for beta. I think the biggest problem that holds people back in climbing is mental. I think alot of climbers either have too big of an ego, or not enough. You have to be confident, but not overly confident. Over-confidence leads to carelessness, which generally leads to failure.
anyway, flame away,
Todd
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godsmybelayer
Sep 23, 2003, 1:41 AM
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When called on something, claim trolliness! :roll:
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tenn_dawg
Sep 23, 2003, 2:01 AM
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What kind of whiskey curt?
I'm thinking if I manage to follow you I'll take a bottle of that scotch you and bvb are always jawing about.
I could pick up a handle of makers mark select. I always was rather fond of that stuff, but hell, I'm just a binge drinking college boy. What would I know about fine whiskey?
Hahahaha
Travis
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curt
Sep 23, 2003, 2:14 AM
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In reply to: What kind of whiskey curt? I'm thinking if I manage to follow you I'll take a bottle of that scotch you and bvb are always jawing about. I could pick up a handle of makers mark select. I always was rather fond of that stuff, but hell, I'm just a binge drinking college boy. What would I know about fine whiskey? Hahahaha Travis
No offence, but I'm not a big fan of Kentucky/Tennessee Bourbon whisky. I would definately go for a bottle of fine single malt, however. Macallan works for me. Lagavulin, Edradour, Glenfarclas or a number of others will be considered acceptable substitutes. Let me know when you are coming, sounds like we've got a deal. Hehe.
Curt
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curt
Sep 23, 2003, 2:22 AM
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In reply to: When called on something, claim trolliness! :roll:
godisyourproctologist,
Give me a break. I am an old and infirm gent (probably the same age as your father) who has to prop his walker up gently against the boulder prior to attempting anything these days. And, I don't do sit-down problems because I realize full well I couldn't get back up without assistance. Just ask anyone who has climbed with me. Now sod off.
Curt
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tenn_dawg
Sep 23, 2003, 2:35 AM
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Ahhhhh, I gotcha.
I haven't been able to aquire a taste for scotch. Not for lack of trying, but I kind of prefer the sharp taste of Makers Mark, or even something like Jim Beam. I think scotch is more about the after taste, but as I drink whiskey with lots of ice, I always feel like I'm watering down the taste of scotch, which to me, seem watery tasting already.
Of course, the nicest scotch I've ever had was that Johnny Walker Gold label stuff, which I don't think is as nice as Macallan, since it's a blended whiskey. It cost me dearly though, that stuff was steep, thank god for girlfriends with credit cards...
Regardless, taking on an old man on his home turf...this ain't going to be easy. How many problems? 20 or so? I'm guessing V4 through around V8...Harder? Hmmm, this is going to be fun. It's on Curt, I'm looking forward to it!
I can't believe none of the blow hards have stepped up with the cash yet. Certainly someone has the disposable income out there? Hahaha.
Travis
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teddy
Sep 23, 2003, 3:32 AM
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hell you pay for my trip to america and food and ill give u $500 , although i know i wouldn't be able to keep up with you. Im a youngun and ive been climbing a MASSIVE 4 months
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jt512
Sep 23, 2003, 3:37 AM
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In reply to: That is the problem with grading climbs or boulder problems--especially when you try to divide the grades too finely. By definition, the more finely you try to grade things, the greater the innaccuracy of the ratings.
Well, you could achieve 100% accuracy only by classifying every problem the same. Where do you draw the line?
-Jay
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curt
Sep 23, 2003, 3:56 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: That is the problem with grading climbs or boulder problems--especially when you try to divide the grades too finely. By definition, the more finely you try to grade things, the greater the innaccuracy of the ratings. Well, you could achieve 100% accuracy only by classifying every problem the same. Where do you draw the line? -Jay
Jay,
Since my wife is an attorney, I will use the vernacular of her trade. You draw the line at a point where a reasonable person, skilled in the art, would be able to determine that climbs of the same numerical grade are indeed of similar difficulty. If that definition is not clear, you can pay Lisa $200/hour to explain it to you. Hehe. You don't actually take issue with my original point, do you? That is--the more finely divided you try to grade things, the greater the inaccuracy? I would hope not.
Curt
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cgranite
Sep 23, 2003, 4:01 AM
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the rating system is good for reference, but it's really screwy sometimes. I know what some of you mean. this isn't a good example, but this just reminds me of how I was reading a mag and this route saws 5.13c, the next day I'm in the book store reading a guidebook and the route says 5.13d. It just made me think about how you can take a bunch of 6'2+ climbers that have thin fingers up a REACHY pin scar climb and have them all say it was 5.11a, then you take another climber (same ability level on average) who is very short with thick fingers> how hard will it be for him? thats my thoughts, the system isn't perfect, so just climb-Its fun to ignore numbers sometimes...I promise
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climbthedj
Sep 23, 2003, 5:30 AM
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In reply to: godisyourproctologist, Give me a break. I am an old and infirm gent (probably the same age as your father) who has to prop his walker up gently against the boulder prior to attempting anything these days. And, I don't do sit-down problems because I realize full well I couldn't get back up without assistance. Just ask anyone who has climbed with me. Now sod off. Curt
It's true, It's true! Except that his walker is pretty sick.. It's got GPS, bumpin' speakers and a cup - er I mean beer-holder! Rock on, Curt!
He may not do sit-down starts, but I definitely witnessed a dyno this past weekend.
Cheers,
-C
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jt512
Sep 23, 2003, 5:36 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: That is the problem with grading climbs or boulder problems--especially when you try to divide the grades too finely. By definition, the more finely you try to grade things, the greater the innaccuracy of the ratings. Well, you could achieve 100% accuracy only by classifying every problem the same. Where do you draw the line? You draw the line at a point where a reasonable person, skilled in the art, would be able to determine that climbs of the same numerical grade are indeed of similar difficulty.
I think that definition only changes the semantics of the problem: At what point do climbs become sufficiently dissimilar in difficulty to be assigned different numerical grades? Furthermore, any single individual could probably rank order many of his recently done climbs of similar difficulty, scoring few of them as pure ties, so if left to an individual, you could have a finely divided scale indeed.
The bigger problem, though, is that individuals would disagree on the rank ordering, with no possibility of consensus, since each individual would be correct according to his own strengths and weaknesses. Thus the problem of producing any sort of objective difficulty scale for routes becomes a statistical one, requiring some sort of averaging of the opinions of a panel of climbers. Indeed, a method for producing such an objective difficulty scale has been developed, but surprisingly, has not yet seen universal acceptance. Form a post of mine on rec.climbing:Good idea to use a logistic model of the odds of success, conditioned on the rating of the climb. Since the probability of success at a given rating depends on the climber's level of skill, incorporating terms for skill level and the interaction between skill level and rating generalizes the model. I suggest on-sight level be the skill variable, since redpointing doesn't translate well to trad climbing.
Sticking with the logistic model, but standardizing the notation and adding the skill variable:
Let:
i = 1 to n index n climbers
j = 0 to m index m YDS ratings
Yij = 1 if the attempt by the ith climber on the jth rated route is a success,
or 0 if it is a failure.
X1i = the climber's on-sight level at the time of the attempt
X2j = the route's rating, rescaled in some sensible way
P(Yij) = probability of success of Yij
logit(Yij) = log-odds of Y(ij)
Then:
P(Yij)/[1-P(Yij)] = exp(a + b1*X1i + b2*X2j + b3*Xli*X2j)
logit(Y) = a + b1*X1i + b2*X2j + b3*X1i*X2j
In reply to: You don't actually take issue with my original point, do you? That is--the more finely divided you try to grade things, the greater the inaccuracy? I would hope not.
The way you've stated it, I'm not sure. If you mean that the greater the number of categories, the greater will be the percentage of climbs that will be misclassified, then yes I agree with you. Nonetheless, I would argue in favor of the current ~16-point V-scale over something along the lines of the older ~3-point B-scale. In spite of having more misclassifications, the more finely divided V-scale is more informative than the B-scale.
-Jay
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alpnclmbr1
Sep 23, 2003, 6:53 AM
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The above system could quantify grades by and for a particular area’s locals.
How would you define a persons on-sight level? To define this you would have to have a reliable grading system. Suppose you can quantify the on-sight level on the basis of probability of success, then how do you correlate this to an arbitrary difficulty scale?
How would you account for the following variables?
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Type/Style of climbing VS your relative strengths
sport: steep, vert, scary. technical, powerful, length
Trad: crack, offwidth, slab, amount of pro,quality of pro, steepness, length
Familiarity with the particular climbing area in question
On-sight level: particular area, type of climbing, route that stresses your strengths or weaknesses
Height, ape factor, scrunch factor
Hold size / crack size versus hand size
=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-
The best you can hope for is a consensus of the locals that have spent enough time at a particular area to be able to compare different routes relative to each other.
Throw in the rest of the factors and different areas into the equation and it quickly becomes hopeless as evidenced by the disparity in grades between different areas.
A definitive grading system is a pipedream.
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curt
Sep 23, 2003, 3:37 PM
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Jay,
In reply to: Nonetheless, I would argue in favor of the current ~16-point V-scale over something along the lines of the older ~3-point B-scale. In spite of having more misclassifications, the more finely divided V-scale is more informative than the B-scale.
Curt
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mreardon
Sep 23, 2003, 5:55 PM
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Is this a shoe thread?
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cass
Sep 23, 2003, 6:11 PM
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pffft - grades - just climb
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jt512
Sep 23, 2003, 9:06 PM
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In reply to: Jay, In reply to: Nonetheless, I would argue in favor of the current ~16-point V-scale over something along the lines of the older ~3-point B-scale. In spite of having more misclassifications, the more finely divided V-scale is more informative than the B-scale. I would maintain that the "V" system is not necessarily "more informative" and has a very low signal to noise ratio.
I can't believe its signal-to-noise ratio is that low. Giving a problem a rating on a 0-15 scale surely tells you more about its difficulty than giving it a rating on a 1-3 scale.
-Jay
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drkodos
Sep 23, 2003, 9:09 PM
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You guys think this is non-sense....
try grading Diamonds :lol:
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jt512
Sep 23, 2003, 9:14 PM
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In reply to: The above system could quantify grades by and for a particular area’s locals. How would you define a persons on-sight level? To define this you would have to have a reliable grading system. Suppose you can quantify the on-sight level on the basis of probability of success, then how do you correlate this to an arbitrary difficulty scale?
I'd use the climber's current hardest on-sight level using the existing YDS rating scale. Improvement in the accuracy of the modeled ratings could be accomplished iteratively by updating the climbers' on-sight level using the modeled ratings, and rerruning the model, continuing the iterations until the convergence was obtained.
In reply to: How would you account for the following variables? =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Type/Style of climbing VS your relative strengths sport: steep, vert, scary. technical, powerful, length Trad: crack, offwidth, slab, amount of pro,quality of pro, steepness, length Familiarity with the particular climbing area in question On-sight level: particular area, type of climbing, route that stresses your strengths or weaknesses Height, ape factor, scrunch factor Hold size / crack size versus hand size
The conceptually simplest way to take care of these factors would be to use a large, random sample of climbers, so that their effects would average out. Alternatively, some factors could be controlled by including them as covariates in the model.
-Jay
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camhead
Sep 23, 2003, 9:32 PM
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In reply to: Hey asshole, I mean grommet as in gremmie in the climbing context. I may not climb 5.13+ anymore but I have certainly bouldered V10 in this calendar year. If you would like to challenge this assertion, please feel free to take up bvb on his wager. He has offered a $500 bet to anyone who can follow me on my bouldering circuit in Arizona. Put up or STFU asswipe. Curt
first off, curt, my fingers still hurt from that gault's tree problem. geez. but, I've got to know– duz this alleged bouldering circuit include Bachar Cracker of Flagstaff?
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alpnclmbr1
Sep 23, 2003, 10:10 PM
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Jay,
That sounds theoretically possible and reasonable. It also sounds like a 20 plus year, hundred million plus dollar study.
As far as the bouldering scale:
It started with B1,B2,B3 with Gill's range of up to v8 or 9
which evolved into B1-,B1,B1+,B2-,B2,B2+,B3 with a corresponding increase in the range of difficulty to say v10/11.
which has expanded to the current V15 scale which incorporates difficulties on both ends of the original scale.
This increase in gradations seems proportional to the increase in the range of abilities. And there has always been the problem of distinguishing between one grade and another due to the large number of variables.
For example arguing whether a problem is a b1 or a b2 is not really any different then arguing whether a problem is a v5 or a v6. They are both just as silly. So I don’t really see a increase in the noise to signal ratio except in relation to the increase in the number of grades to argue over, which doesn't really have any effect in and of itself. People that want to argue will find something to argue about regardless of the scale being used.
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curt
Sep 23, 2003, 10:21 PM
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Paul,
In reply to: I've got to know– duz this alleged bouldering circuit include Bachar Cracker of Flagstaff?
Curt
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tenn_dawg
Sep 23, 2003, 10:31 PM
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In reply to: Paul, In reply to: I've got to know– duz this alleged bouldering circuit include Bachar Cracker of Flagstaff? Of course. You've got to throw in a 15 foot roof crack or two to keep the grommets honest. Hahahaha Curt
Christ almighty...what have I gotten myself into....
Travis
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curt
Sep 23, 2003, 10:38 PM
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Dan,
In reply to: For example arguing whether a problem is a b1 or a b2 is not really any different then arguing whether a problem is a v5 or a v6. They are both just as silly. So I don’t really see a increase in the noise to signal ratio except in relation to the increase in the number of grades to argue over, which doesn't really have any effect in and of itself.
Since most boulderers I have been around can generally agree whether something is several "V" grades apart, the disagreement would be far less. Mathematically you can explain this by picturing each boulder problem having some normal distribution regarding the individual opinions of boulderers, as to the problem's intrinsic difficulty. My experience with the "V" system has shown me that even +/- 1 sigma out from the mean on this normal distribution of opinions, the curve can be spread across numerous "V" grades.
Hence the non-agreement regarding the difficulty of many boulder problems.
Curt
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jt512
Sep 23, 2003, 11:09 PM
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In reply to: Jay, That sounds theoretically possible and reasonable. It also sounds like a 20 plus year, hundred million plus dollar study.
It was an interesting thought experiment, though.
-Jay
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jt512
Sep 23, 2003, 11:12 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Paul, In reply to: I've got to know– duz this alleged bouldering circuit include Bachar Cracker of Flagstaff? Of course. You've got to throw in a 15 foot roof crack or two to keep the grommets honest. Hahahaha Curt Christ almighty...what have I gotten myself into.... Travis
Travis, I would recommend that you offer Curt the bottle of Scotch before the contest. It's your only hope.
-Jay
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alpnclmbr1
Sep 24, 2003, 12:19 AM
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Curt,
My take is that The B system is effectively a non-grading system and worse would lead to a "click" type thing where people would claim to be a b2 climber and feel proud of it. This would evolve into "being a good climber means being able to climb a b2"
What would be the point in having a grading system with two grades? As far as I can see it would be pointless.
Take away the v grade system and people would talk in terms of a problem specific grading system. i.e., this problem is harder than that problem.(more disagreements due to being problem specific (inf.) as opposed to grade specific (limited))
I would agree that the whole system of grading that is ingrained into our society is kind of pointless, but I also don’t think we are going to grow out of it anytime soon.
The main downside to a grading system is that some people fall prey to the belief that they can’t do something because of what it is graded.
On the plus side is that it can be used as a guide to encourage you to try problems that are a little harder then anything you have sent so far.
Whether or not the grade is accurate is beside the point.
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curt
Sep 24, 2003, 12:29 AM
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Registered: Aug 27, 2002
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Dan,
In reply to: On the plus side is that it can be used as a guide to encourage you to try problems that are a little harder then anything you have sent so far.
And, back to the original topic of this thread, another great misuse of the "V" system (and therefore another problem with it) is found here:
http://www.8a.nu/eng/articles/gradjmf.shtml
Just adopt use of this grade conversion chart and we can all be V10 climbers. I guess I've done hundreds of them. Haha.
Curt
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blotched
Sep 24, 2003, 12:39 AM
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5.13 is my pay.
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alpnclmbr1
Sep 24, 2003, 12:58 AM
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Curt,
Agreed that a locals tour is way superior to a guidebook.
That 8a chart is pretty funny for sure. (a misguided sport climbers guide to bouldering?)
I also agree that any grading system is not a accurate reflection of absolute difficulty. The most you can hope for is that it is fairly accurate as far as relative difficulties in a particular area.
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crimsontime
Sep 24, 2003, 1:46 AM
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Who cares about 5.x sport anything. Anyone can repeatedly hang on bolts until they send a route. I respect 5.10 trad more than that.
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deadpointman
Sep 24, 2003, 2:09 AM
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In reply to: Who cares about 5.x sport anything. Anyone can repeatedly hang on bolts until they send a route. I respect 5.10 trad more than that.
Um . . . no--if it only it were that easy. I think I'll go hang from the bolts on a 5.13c and see if that gets me any closer to sending the route. Probably not. :lol:
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