|
roughster
Sep 22, 2003, 5:48 AM
Post #1 of 72
(5317 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 3, 2002
Posts: 4003
|
I have noticed that many of our states are lacking areas, area descriptions, route descriptions, etc... Why not take the time and add a few routes here and there. Fill in some info every now and then. Our route database is one of the great things about the site, yet it is something that IMO is greatly under utilized.
For example, I have been trying recently to go back and out new routes in and work over some Cali stuff. You want to see an amazing example of someone who works freaking hard on the database:
Tigerbythetail aka Chris Miller
http://www.rockclimbing.com/users/list.php?UserID=tigerbythetail
A big thanks to everyone who is contributing, and small nudge to those who are not :lol: Our database will only be as good as we are willing to put effort into it!
|
|
|
|
|
dlintz
Sep 22, 2003, 6:20 AM
Post #2 of 72
(5317 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 9, 2002
Posts: 1982
|
I'd add some routes for Nebraska but there are none, unless you count the 3 boulders in Toadstool State Park. Unfortunately I've seen sturdier sandcastles than these choss piles.
|
|
|
|
|
roughster
Sep 22, 2003, 7:34 AM
Post #3 of 72
(5317 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 3, 2002
Posts: 4003
|
In reply to: I'd add some routes for Nebraska but there are none, unless you count the 3 boulders in Toadstool State Park. Unfortunately I've seen sturdier sandcastles than these choss piles.
Ouch...note to self, stay out of Nebraska ;)
|
|
|
|
|
dc
Sep 22, 2003, 9:49 AM
Post #4 of 72
(5317 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 19, 2003
Posts: 355
|
im posting all i know about Hong Kong :lol: :wink:
|
|
|
|
|
lollipopchic
Sep 22, 2003, 1:48 PM
Post #5 of 72
(5317 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 9, 2003
Posts: 183
|
I've added quite a few for Western Australia...
|
|
|
|
|
rockprodigy
Sep 22, 2003, 2:55 PM
Post #6 of 72
(5317 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2002
Posts: 1540
|
I tried to add a bunch of route photos and info on utah, and one of you web nazis emailed me saying the photos didn't deserve to be submitted in the highest resolution because they were "only" route photos....meanwhile you have 10,000 butt shots in the database.
Too bad for you, since all of those photos are now in a published guidebook. If you want the info now, you can pay for it!
|
|
|
|
|
fiend
Sep 22, 2003, 3:03 PM
Post #7 of 72
(5317 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 25, 2001
Posts: 3669
|
Has anyone gotten around to adding a new section for boulders so that problems can be grouped together more effeciently?
|
|
|
|
|
fritzski
Sep 22, 2003, 3:07 PM
Post #8 of 72
(5317 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 4, 2002
Posts: 122
|
Try to give as much info on locating the specific route as possible in case reader has no topo or guide book.
If writing to supplement what's already in a guide book, try to embellish or add to the description a little bit.
Just my two cents :wink:
|
|
|
|
|
renobdarb
Sep 22, 2003, 3:29 PM
Post #9 of 72
(5317 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 14, 2003
Posts: 393
|
In reply to: I have noticed that many of our states are lacking areas, area descriptions, route descriptions, etc... Why not take the time and add a few routes here and there.
I put about 40-50 routes in the SD section this last spring, but if you remember there was that little fart in the system around May where a lot of data was lost, and many of those routes were victim to that... I realize these things happen and i'm not too bent out of shape over it, but I haven't had the time lately to re-enter them (i've been too busy working and climbing!), but when the snow flies and it's too cold to jam cracks on the Tower I plan on getting around to re-entering some of those routes that were lost...
cheers,
brad
|
|
|
|
|
warloc
Sep 22, 2003, 3:48 PM
Post #10 of 72
(5317 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 1, 2003
Posts: 75
|
At first I thought the database wasn't useful at all. But when my sister went to live to Belgium, we found it really helpful, with routes, crags and links. Since then I began to add routes of my country (Spain) to the database and putting some topos on my homepage. I hope they help somebody sometime :D
Have fun! 8)
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Sep 22, 2003, 3:58 PM
Post #11 of 72
(5317 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
I'm glad you brought this up, as I have been wanted to clear my mind of some questions. But first, to answer yours:
No, I'm not. I have yet to see the utility of this database. I have seen countless hours of people's time pissed away through lost data and a very cavalier attitude toward that lost time.
What I see when I look at the db is a list of areas, perhaps some directions and another list of recommends. That seems pretty much to be it. I don't see it replacing a guide book any time soon. What is the purpose of the db? Has it already achieved its aims? A big list? That's it??? Or is it going to be grown guide-book comprehensive and start competing with the commercial guidebooks?
I don't see the utility of a list. And I don't see 'guidebook' without a revenue stream attached to it.
Who owns the data?
Will rc.com ever charge site visitors to access this db? If so, what is the compensation plan for the contributors to the db? What about their copyrights? How are those to be protected?
For the life of me, I cannot quite understand why people are so willing to give away their data to a privately held commercial site that will tell them to 'leave if you don't like" how they run things. When it's about admin, it's 'we own the site.' When its about data, the site runs on user donations. The twain never seem to meet.
Serious reservations about the admin of the data coupled with a lack of understanding as to the use and intent of the db in the first place. When I want to go climbing, this db is pretty much the very last place I would consult and even then it probably wouldn't even occur to me.
I can't be alone in these thoughts?
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
fredrogers
Sep 22, 2003, 5:07 PM
Post #12 of 72
(5317 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 20, 2003
Posts: 288
|
I don't see a ton of utility in trying to add every single route to the database. Without topos, this is usually a useless piece of info. But I hope more people can add or update each general area. It's really useful for planning a road trip and trying to identify basic info: camping, directions, season, fees, type and quality of rock, number of routes, list of classics, reccommended guidebooks, etc.
|
|
|
|
|
rockprodigy
Sep 22, 2003, 5:12 PM
Post #13 of 72
(5317 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2002
Posts: 1540
|
In reply to: I can't be alone in these thoughts? DMT
You're right on, Dingus. I struggled for awhile with the idea of giving away my route information, when I finally decided to give it to RC.com, and they told me my photos were too large...I thought "to hell with you!"
I think what you are alluding to is that they want the best of both worlds...they want us to give up information for free, but then they want to be able to make money off of it in the end. They're not sure if they want to be amateurs or professionals.
|
|
|
|
|
atg200
Sep 22, 2003, 5:22 PM
Post #14 of 72
(5317 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2001
Posts: 4317
|
i've added a lot of routes, but more out of boredom than anything. i think the interface is primitive, and i think the whole thing is a lawsuit waiting to happen since most people seem to just add stuff verbatim out of the guidebook. i use the database in the hopes that i can get a little beta on some of the harder and more obscure desert towers that i climb, but this hasn't really happened much.
i think the climbingboulder/climbingmoab style sites do a much better job of organizing and presenting route information and discussion, and also the intentions of those websites is a lot more clear.
|
|
|
|
|
crotch
Sep 22, 2003, 5:28 PM
Post #15 of 72
(5317 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 16, 2003
Posts: 1277
|
In reply to: Who owns the data? Will rc.com ever charge site visitors to access this db? If so, what is the compensation plan for the contributors to the db? What about their copyrights? How are those to be protected? For the life of me, I cannot quite understand why people are so willing to give away their data to a privately held commercial site that will tell them to 'leave if you don't like" how they run things. When it's about admin, it's 'we own the site.' When its about data, the site runs on user donations. The twain never seem to meet.
Careful, dude. You don't want to go get yourself put on some sort of LIST now, do ya? Them's dangerous questions you ask.
|
|
|
|
|
bandycoot
Sep 22, 2003, 5:29 PM
Post #16 of 72
(5317 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 25, 2002
Posts: 2028
|
I spent hours adding obscure areas to that data base and then they all got deleted and weren't backed up. Now I don't go out of my way to add a climb unless I thought it was really pimp.
|
|
|
|
|
bandycoot
Sep 22, 2003, 5:33 PM
Post #17 of 72
(5317 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 25, 2002
Posts: 2028
|
The only usefulness to me of the data base is to see who has climbed what. If I have a question about a route I PM them and ask it. The data base of the routes (description and such) is for the most part wortless. There is no description on how to get to these climbs, a topo, nothing worthwile at all. You have to buy a guide in order to climb these routes, and that has the info put in by users about the route.
|
|
|
|
|
andy_lemon
Sep 22, 2003, 6:03 PM
Post #18 of 72
(5317 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 7, 2001
Posts: 3335
|
In reply to: I don't see it replacing a guide book any time soon. What is the purpose of the db? Has it already achieved its aims? A big list? That's it??? Or is it going to be grown guide-book comprehensive and start competing with the commercial guidebooks?
There are several local areas (Southern Illinois, first and foremost) that have had a guide written but is now outdated or there has never been a guide written. People who are not members of rc.com have come to see the information that people have added to these areas. It is not uncommon to hear,
"Do you know the name of that new route?"
"No, let's go see if it is on rc.com"
I hope that helps to answer your question. The database is a utility that attracked me and alot of other people to this site in the first place. It is not uncommon to have forums to chat in but to have a place where you can gather and collect usefull information (such as FA history) that is not documented anywhere else is very important. Not to mention access issues and closures that can be announced to local crags.
|
|
|
|
|
drkodos
Sep 22, 2003, 6:43 PM
Post #19 of 72
(5317 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 21, 2002
Posts: 2935
|
Kudos to Dingus for nailing it.
My own three cents:
Many of the people posting and updating and even those in charge of particular areas are lame. They aren't climbing the routes they enter.
There are petty pissing contests of people editing and re-editing other people's work.
The Nevada site and those (?) running it are a great example of this.
The hypocrisy of it being "our site" when works needs to be done, and "Trevor's" site when the admin wants to crack knuckles is ridiculous.
Good Luck!
|
|
|
|
|
tigerbythetail
Sep 22, 2003, 8:10 PM
Post #20 of 72
(5317 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 514
|
Here's some thoughts of mine on the route database -
I feel it is (and can be) a useful tool to supplement (not replace) guidebooks although as has been pointed out it sometimes can and does function as a guidebook to those areas without a proper one.
All of the information that I enter (and that anyone enters) should be accurate and factual - routes that I've not done or have no knowledge of are left for those that have that knowledge and wish to share it. We've all seen numerous entries with less info than the back of a soda can, which serve no real purpose, but those with valid information can actually be of some use.
The concerns about guidebooks and "competition" with the route database is an interesting topic, but I feel the information entered is public knowledge and if the information is not verbatim then there shouldn't be a problem. It would be interesting to have some guidebook authors weigh in on this. One thought is the route database can actually help some guides (perhaps hurt others?) by giving them more exposure than they would get without being here.
It has potential to be a good resource just like the photo section if it is handled well, and maybe just maybe it will open people's eyes to the existence of all the wonderful places we have available to us to ply our chosen sport. Perhaps in time it could even spread people out some and get people to be more willing to try new stuff instead of queueing up yet again for another ascent of Double Cross or some similarly popular route.
Lastly, time spent entering data is an investment and donation to the climbing community. Those that don't enter information I only hope will make use of the information and enjoy.
|
|
|
|
|
davidcollins
Sep 22, 2003, 9:49 PM
Post #21 of 72
(5317 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 52
|
I have found that the database is not entirely useless, although it falls far short of what it could be.
The db is useful to get general information about climbing areas in regions which are not covered by current guidebooks. For example in central PA, I can get some idea of geographic location of and type of climbing at our magnificent outcroppings. No guidebooks cover these and its an hour or so to the nearest climbing store, which may not have any info about what's in the opposite direction. So, it's been useful in that regard. However, it's pretty hopeless for finding particular routes in any of these places.
Otherwise its main purpose seems to be a place to attach photos or a publically available web logbook of personal ascents. In many cases the actual route entries are essentially transcriptions of those in existing guidebooks but lack the accompanying topos. You still need the guidebook topos and directions to find any routes. So what's the use of such db entries? The db adds zero in these cases.
Which is too bad since, even without topos, it could have some value. Many times guidebook descriptions are terse, supplying little beyond a basic roadmap of the route. But was the route enjoyable? Was there anything special about it? Does it have an interesting history? Is it a classic beginner or moderate route for the area, etc...? Interesting information like this is often omitted from the guidebooks. So why not supply this in the route db?
I would think that a minmum requirement for route db entry is that you have actually attempted the route but take it beyond the guidebook and be creative! That goes for route ascents as well!
David
|
|
|
|
|
roughster
Sep 22, 2003, 10:51 PM
Post #22 of 72
(5317 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 3, 2002
Posts: 4003
|
In reply to: No, I'm not. I have yet to see the utility of this database. I have seen countless hours of people's time pissed away through lost data and a very cavalier attitude toward that lost time.
It is true when the site migrated we lost some info. Trust me, it was nothing that anyone wanted and the coders did their best to retrieve it.
In reply to: What I see when I look at the db is a list of areas, perhaps some directions and another list of recommends. That seems pretty much to be it. I don't see it replacing a guide book any time soon. What is the purpose of the db?
I would say IMO (and that represent exactly that "my opinion") that the database is a usefull tool for local climbers to share information, descriptions, beta, etc.. about routes. It is something for people to go look at it in the event a guidebook is outdated, or newer routes have gone up and are not listed anywhere else. I wouldn't say that it is ever designed to replace a guidebook to a specific area, but rather something you can browse while slacking at work :lol: or looking for up to date info. You never know what gems people will submit they may be lost/forgotten.
In reply to: Has it already achieved its aims? A big list? That's it??? Or is it going to be grown guide-book comprehensive and start competing with the commercial guidebooks?
Since my arrival here on the site, I have yet to hear of any talk of making a "Rock and Road"ish book. From everythng I have pieced together, it is as stated above, a free resource for climbers to browse at their leasure and update at their leasure.
In reply to: I don't see the utility of a list. And I don't see 'guidebook' without a revenue stream attached to it.
I do. It attracts visitors. Right now our route database has the most comprehensive route listings for New Jack City. The people that come here for that info will also see our advertising banners and hopefully some will click on them and follow through with some sort of purchase. It is not totally wasted "space" on the site. It does draw users to it. NJC is just one example though, there are alot of areas that aren't in any guidebook, but are listed here.
In reply to: Who owns the data? Will rc.com ever charge site visitors to access this db? If so, what is the compensation plan for the contributors to the db? What about their copyrights? How are those to be protected?
I will bring up the ownership issue with the other Mods/Admins/Trevor as to tell you the truth I am not 100% sure on the issue and don't wish to misrepresent the site. However, the route database is not a piece of a world domination plan ;) It is simply a resource for climbers on the net. Should there ever be a decision to make some sort of huge ass guide book out of it, I am sure the issues you present would be discussed, agreed upon (most likely with user feedback), and published well in advance of anything actually being published. I can say with pretty strong confidence that there is no plans in the immediate future that entails publishing any book with the contained or added info.
In reply to: For the life of me, I cannot quite understand why people are so willing to give away their data to a privately held commercial site that will tell them to 'leave if you don't like" how they run things. When it's about admin, it's 'we own the site.' When its about data, the site runs on user donations. The twain never seem to meet.
Because some users actually like how the site is run and don't have a problem with it. The vast majority of the users on the site do not ever even have a discussion with a mod/admin. They use the site as an informational resource, a place to submit climbing photos, and a place to chat on the boards. Realistically, only the truly outspoken and agenda'ish type people every really have a run-in and even the majority of those people settle down once they are contacted. As the saying goes, "It only takes one bad apple to ruin the whole barrel." However that is really not the issue and is not something I am directing at your personally Dingus. People who "suspect" the site has some evil agenda should probably not chose to contribute, however, others who have used the database for info and actually would enjoy contributing back to it are encouraged to do so!
In reply to: Serious reservations about the admin of the data coupled with a lack of understanding as to the use and intent of the db in the first place. When I want to go climbing, this db is pretty much the very last place I would consult and even then it probably wouldn't even occur to me. I can't be alone in these thoughts? DMT
Dingus, you are not alone and that is definitely clear from reading the replies, hence this post :lol: I wanted to bring the issue up not because I thought everyone would just have a big yellow light over the head turn on, but rather to find out what ARE some peoples reservations, and what can we do as a site to address them.
I personally think the route database could be a fantastic tool and I have received many PMs, emails, etc.. from my entries. My current climbing partner PM'd, "because I saw you entered a lot of the info for the local area." I consider that right there a success story for me personally. Will anything ever be "officially" done with the data? I honestly cannot say, but the description written write on the database entry page sums it use up nicely:
In reply to: Welcome to the World Climbing Database! Here is where you will find contributions by climbers from all over the world! If you find out that climbing information in this database is either missing or incorrect, we hope you will make your contribution to the community. Let climbers world-wide know about your favorite crag by following the instructions contained in the following pages. Simply click on the continent of your choice and start searching |
|
|
|
|
coldclimb
Sep 22, 2003, 11:00 PM
Post #23 of 72
(5317 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 14, 2002
Posts: 6909
|
I add the information on the things that I have done, which is limited. I try not to add info on stuff I don't know about. The information I add is freely available to anyone who tries to find it, so why should I claim anything for submitting it here? This site simply makes it easier for those looking for it to find it. I personally don't mind doing others a service. :roll:
|
|
|
|
|
ronamick
Sep 22, 2003, 11:14 PM
Post #24 of 72
(5317 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 28, 2002
Posts: 476
|
I'm doing what I can with the San Diego section.
Question: Why is it that when we post a two word reply to some idiotic thread we are credited with a post, but when we contribute a valuable public service by adding a route to the database, we don't?
|
|
|
|
|
ronamick
Sep 22, 2003, 11:33 PM
Post #25 of 72
(5317 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 28, 2002
Posts: 476
|
As to the value of the database, I think that it offers a venue for public documentation of first ascents that has never been available to us. Previously it was word of mouth or write a new guidebook to spread the word on new routes or areas. As a former basecamp correspondent for Climbing Magazine and sometime scribe for some of SD's areas, I find the ability to get this info to the masses (and get feedback on it) to be nothing short of miraculous.
I have seen postings of "FA's" that have been trade routes for decades and total misinformation offered by fools as well. I also wonder why people who know little about a given area take it upon themselves to write the description for that area. The good thing is that you can edit right over the nonsense if you've a mind to.
Dingus' concerns about the use, ownership, etc. of the DB are well taken, but kind of moot due to the unreliable, incomplete and unverified nature of the data. If it were a factual compendium of route data, that would be different, but I don't see it as something that's going to be misused or sold at a big profit.
I personally take the route DB with a grain of salt, like this whole affair. This is computer stuff, not climbing, so it's really all a game in the end.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
