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static_climber
Oct 13, 2003, 4:57 PM
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In reply to: Different types of people? What "type" are you? Certain sports are meant for different types of people? You're not making sense. Football was an all-white sport for a long time. Because there are a lot of African-Americans playing football means that whites are no longer meant to play the sport? You sound goofy as hell dude.
Im not saying that only a certian type of person can play a sport. but some sports are dominated by certian races. football is mostly black people. there are many good white people playing football but most are black. hockey is just the oppsite. and climbing is the same way alot of white people climb now and in the next few years who knows maybe ethopines with start climbing. and dominate the sport
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gemiller
Oct 14, 2003, 2:32 PM
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In reply to: NO sport, whether it be soccer, baseball, football, volleyball, or basketball is as expensive as climbing. (Well, maybe polo, because you gotta buy the horse. :wink: )
paintball is definately more expensive though
my gun is worth 900
a case of paint is 50 dollars and i go through like 2-3 a day
masks = 60
gloves = 20
tank refills
entry fees
ya i think paintball will take climbing in costs.
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mreardon
Oct 14, 2003, 4:30 PM
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In reply to: A basketball and shoes cost more than $300? What are they made of, gold? My point is that all you need for basketball is shoes and a ball. A full set takes most people years to acquire... webbing, rope, harness, chalkbag/ball, shoes (mine were $130), quickdraws, cams, biners... NO sport, whether it be soccer, baseball, football, volleyball, or basketball is as expensive as climbing.
Wrong. The only thing you need to go climbing with is you. You don't need special shoes, gear, clothing, chalk, or anything when you first start out. Granted, these things help, but those are costs you decide and control.
Get out of the local YMCA with the 12 year olds and go to a real basketball court in the city. A decent pair of Nikes will run you at least $100. Here's seven pair that cost more http://niketown.nike.com/cat_index.jhtml?categoryID=52750&shopByID=1&page=1&navType=navTree. Climbing shoes can be bought for as little as $35 new (5.10 outlet regularly has them for under $70 and once in a while a special for around $20). Just because you paid full retail doesn't mean everyone else isn't afraid to look around for a better deal. Add in a chalkbag (which are so commonplace they're free with most orders) and chalk, you're still ready to climb for less than a pair of good basketball shoes. So that's one sport that's more expensive than climbing.
Oh yeah, and you need a handful of players on the court. You only need one other climber to make a full day out of it. Baseball? At least ten players, with as much, if not more, gear than the best rigged climbers. If you think it's just a bat and ball, then keep your insurance high, because nothing hurts worse than baseball to the nugget.
Volleyball? Okay, that one's cheaper, except for the fact that most good surfwear shorts start around $60, and the cost of parking to hang at the beach all day is $5-20 per day. Within a single season you easily spend more than for a rack fit for The Nose.
Soccor? Football? Are you really saying that joining a league to play is cheaper than climbing? Get a grip, the average league play is at least $150 per season, plus your own gear. Two seasons, and you got a great crashpad and a harness which should last you a couple years.
Polo is the only thing you got right, but other than the horse, has the least amoung of gear involved.
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mreardon
Oct 14, 2003, 4:40 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: This has been debated to death. It's pretty simple, and has little to do with cost. A pair of used shoes is $30 and chalk is under a dollar. For a whopping $100 you can have a complete bouldering rig, for $300 you have a rope, harness, and full top rope rig. A basketball and shoes costs more. That's patently misleading. I agree that it's possible to spend only $30 on shoes, if you were willing to buy used, and maybe spending $100 total on a crashpad, shoes, and chalk is doable, but again, it would be used or crappy equipment...and those are some cheap prices! Who would pay $288 for used shoes?!
Nothing misleading. At least I gave facts, you gave rhetoric. $30 for shoes happens regularly at the 5.10 outlet in Redlands. New. I have yet to see a pair of shoes go for more than $90 out of there. Evolv sells shoes for $90. New. Madrocks sell plenty of shoes for under $100. New. Do I really need to go on? And not all bouldering needs a crashpad. Hell, 80% of it doesn't need a crashpad, but people choose to pay the money for it.
As for who pays so much for basketball shoes? Probably the same kind of person that spends full retail for a pair of high performance climbing shoes that extends beyond their abilities....
Is anyone actually answering the question here?
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mreardon
Oct 14, 2003, 4:48 PM
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In reply to: Middle to upper class whites do not have to worry about existence; it is a given. For the ethnic minorities in North America, and for pre-Industiral countires around the world, survival is NOT given. Day to day needs such as food and shelter take up all thoughts, financial means, etc. The point is that in our boredom we have created a way to entertain ourselves by in some sense returning to a survival mode. Since ethnic minorities are still in an *actual* survival situation, the idea of climbing rocks for amusement is a bit absurd
Please let me know where I can sign up to receive my free money so I don't have to worry about survival. Apparently me and my white brethren who are currently dominating the world missed out on that meeting. While you're at it, please let those silly Japanese in Japan know where they can get their checks, as well as those in China, and the climbers pulling hard in Spain, and....
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bumblie
Oct 14, 2003, 5:01 PM
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Hey mreardon,
Stick to movies. Just about every one of your points was exceedingly lame.
Money isn't the real issue here, anyway.
It's cultural/societal. The lines continue to become less distinct, but they're still there (generally speaking).
"Alternative" sports don't attract many African-Americans.
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mreardon
Oct 14, 2003, 5:11 PM
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Get away from the apples and oranges argument of money. That is not the issue. Never has been, never will be. Just ask most of the climbers out there, and you'll see some of the cheapest dirtbags around!
If I'm in Japan, and all I see is Japanese people, guess what - there are no white people climbing! If I'm in Spain, and all I see is Spaniards climbing - there are no white people climbing! If I'm in Southern California, and all I see are Asians and women climbing - well, you get the idea....
It's the area you live in. Demographics, pure and simple. For those who refuse to understand it, here's an example:
California has 33 million residents. Everyone would agree that California is more diverse than most of the U.S.
White: 26 million
Black: 2.3 million
Asian: 3.8 million
Everyone else is mixed ancestry, Indian, Latino, etc.
Don't believe the numbers, here's the link: http://eire.census.gov/popest/data/states/tables/ST-EST2002-ASRO-05-06.pdf
Pretty simple math here: Less than 9% of the residents in California are black. 10% are Asian, 11% are of mixed heritage, Latino, etc. Therefore, if there are 1,000 climbers in California, it is likely that there would be less than 90 that are black, 100 that are Asian, and 110 to cover the rest. That makes it 700 white folks to 300 for the rest.
How many of you have climbed with 1,000 climbers? My bet is, zero. How many of you have climbed with someone that is other than white? My bet is, all of you. Follow the math, you're beating the statistics. Especially those that do not climb in California. So stop mastubating to yet another article on Chris Sharma, and pay attention to your surroundings, and you'll see, there's a lot more around you than what you read.
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mreardon
Oct 14, 2003, 5:15 PM
Post #83 of 95
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In reply to: Hey mreardon, Stick to movies. Just about every one of your points was exceedingly lame. Money isn't the real issue here, anyway. It's cultural/societal. The lines continue to become less distinct, but they're still there (generally speaking). "Alternative" sports don't attract many African-Americans.
Sorry the facts bother you so much. But hey, those personal attacks will win every time. :wink:
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static_climber
Oct 14, 2003, 5:20 PM
Post #84 of 95
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In reply to: For the ethnic minorities in North America
white people seem 2 be the ethnic minorit in arizona anyway mexicans have taken over lol.
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bumblie
Oct 14, 2003, 5:32 PM
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In reply to: Sorry the facts bother you so much.
But they weren't facts, merely lame examples of how much someone "can" spend to start those sports.
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leaverbiner
Oct 14, 2003, 6:21 PM
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I think it is hilarious that people are debating the ethnic makeup of the climbing community and postulating that the percieved lack of diversity stems from the expense . .. that is just hilarious . . .
My thoughts:
Think about how you got involved in climbing . . . I'm guessing either a friend introduced you to it, or you walked ou in your backyard and started climbing all over the rocks . . . o.k., so expand upon that . . . demographics (repeated ad nauseum above), minorities have traditionally been more prevalant in the cities . . . it was easier to find jobs and much easier to ensure a community of people that shared the same culture and language . . . as ethnic minorities spread to the suburbs and beyond their exposure to other recreational activies increases . . . more and more kids of all ethnic bakcgrounds will be able to walk outside and start climbing all over the rocks and say "hmm I like this climbing stuff" . . . second point - introduction by friends . . . if you and your friends live in the city or their families have traditionally been in the city (see above), their older brothers and sisters taught them how to play basketball or how to play football from lightpost to lightpost or something along those lines, and this gets passed down. As a kid you always want to do what the bigger kids are doing so certain recreational activities become engrained. If you want acceptance or to shine or to be popular, or whatever (yes I know none of you cares if you are accepted, or if you are popular, but I'm venturing a guess that when you were 10, your thoughts were quite different) you take up the activites that everyone around you is doing. When your buddy says hey lets go shoot some hoops, you don't say nah, I'm going to find me some rocks to climb. Or when your buddy tells you about the sweet crossover he dropped on the punk down the street, you're not likely fit in if you tell him about the sick dropknee you found on your latest project.
But, now that climbing gyms are becoming more and more prevalant both in the cities and elsewhere, climbign is becoming more and more of an option for these kids. Now, one kid has a birthday party at a climbing gym, or his church group goes and he says to his buddy, hey, we should go climbing on saturday . . "climbing? what do you mean?" . .. "I'll show you . . ." alas another introduction to our wonderful diversion!
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sixter
Oct 14, 2003, 6:27 PM
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I wonder if the climbers in Japan wonder why there are so few white climbers?
Seriously, is there really a problem? Did people care that golf in the States was dominated by white folk before Tiger came along (still is by numbers)? I saw pleanty of mix at the golf courses when I played in the days before the Tiger boom, and my golf setup cost me about $60, but then again I sucked, so didn't see any reason to pay $600 for a posh set of clubs. Climbing here in SoCal I see a good mix with asians being the larger group of minorities that I personally have seen. I see this as a nonissue. Too many times people will pull race in as a factor into something where it has no place. If a person is being denied an oportunity to advance because of their race, there is a problem. The fact that most Motocross pros are white, not a big deal. The fact most climbers seem to be white. No big deal. If a climber is being denied the oportunity to climb just beacuse the color of his/her skin? Problem.
Hey, I could qualify for many a low income benefit, but I climb, so money is not really an issue. You make the sacrafices for whatever you hobby or interest is. Take a look at people who are on drugs, or kids with slammed rice rockets, they sacrafice other areas of their life to pursue the lifestyle of their choice. If a black kid wants to devote his time to playing basketball, that is his choice, doesn't matter if his parents are rich, middle class, or poor. One does have to consider the availabiltiy of some sports over others. Basketball, baseball, football can pretty much be played anywhere, from the street outside your house, the local park, rec center, school, so they are available to more people. How often do people driving past a few boulders think, "Hey, I can participate in an sport here." I know most kids have a natural desire to climb, but by the time they get old enough to cultivate it on their own, they usually are already set in what they are doing, and are good at. With the growing numbers of portable rock walls, we may see a growth in our sport in the area of racial diversity. There just isn't enough exposure of our sport to the public to attract the diverse demographics some seem to want. If more community centers had climbing walls for kids, maybe we would see a growth in diversity.
Personally I am fine climbing with whoever, I don't care color, background. Last week I was bouldering with a 2 other whites, and a black guy, it was fun, but after the initial "hey, cool, a black climber", he was just another climber that can pull harder than me.
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veep23
Oct 14, 2003, 6:56 PM
Post #88 of 95
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In reply to: what is "white"? what is "race"?
They are outdated social constructs developed over the ages to keep those of one color (depending on locale) in power. Race isn't science, it's social conditioning.
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bumblie
Oct 14, 2003, 7:43 PM
Post #89 of 95
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In reply to: They are outdated social constructs developed over the ages to keep those of one color (depending on locale) in power. Race isn't science, it's social conditioning.
Dude,
The art of the Troll is in its subtlety. You are way too obvious. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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pico23
Oct 14, 2003, 8:11 PM
Post #90 of 95
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In reply to: I think it is hilarious that people are debating the ethnic makeup of the climbing community and postulating that the percieved lack of diversity stems from the expense . .. that is just hilarious . . . My thoughts: Think about how you got involved in climbing . . . I'm guessing either a friend introduced you to it, or you walked ou in your backyard and started climbing all over the rocks . . . o.k., so expand upon that . . . demographics (repeated ad nauseum above), minorities have traditionally been more prevalant in the cities . . . it was easier to find jobs and much easier to ensure a community of people that shared the same culture and language . . . as ethnic minorities spread to the suburbs and beyond their exposure to other recreational activies increases . . . more and more kids of all ethnic bakcgrounds will be able to walk outside and start climbing all over the rocks and say "hmm I like this climbing stuff" . . . second point - introduction by friends . . . if you and your friends live in the city or their families have traditionally been in the city (see above), their older brothers and sisters taught them how to play basketball or how to play football from lightpost to lightpost or something along those lines, and this gets passed down. As a kid you always want to do what the bigger kids are doing so certain recreational activities become engrained. If you want acceptance or to shine or to be popular, or whatever (yes I know none of you cares if you are accepted, or if you are popular, but I'm venturing a guess that when you were 10, your thoughts were quite different) you take up the activites that everyone around you is doing. When your buddy says hey lets go shoot some hoops, you don't say nah, I'm going to find me some rocks to climb. Or when your buddy tells you about the sweet crossover he dropped on the punk down the street, you're not likely fit in if you tell him about the sick dropknee you found on your latest project. But, now that climbing gyms are becoming more and more prevalant both in the cities and elsewhere, climbign is becoming more and more of an option for these kids. Now, one kid has a birthday party at a climbing gym, or his church group goes and he says to his buddy, hey, we should go climbing on saturday . . "climbing? what do you mean?" . .. "I'll show you . . ." alas another introduction to our wonderful diversion!
I'll agree with you to a point but I have to say I lived in a community that was 92% white at the time of my graduation from high school and all the sports i participated in out of school were not the result of my friends. I played volleyball and we didn't have a boys team until the last year I was there, I was a cyclist and I only knew 2 other people in my school the rode semi competetively, I was a backpacker and I didn't know 1 other people who backpacked outside of boy scouts (and counting scouts I only knew 10 people). Basically what I'm saying is I didn't need a pack friends to help me find sports/activities I enjoyed and I don't feel like everyone else does. I'd venture to say many people started climbing without any outside influence from there friends. And if that isn't true today I bet it was 20 years ago. I've read way to many books of great climbers who basically started climbing as kids just trying to have fun and that led to a life long passion. That was basically how I started and how many people I know started.
Not sure what prevents minorities from doing this but it's being infered through many post that minorities cannot do something along these lines without a group to get them going. IMO thats the saddest part of the whole problem. So why is that?
I really think (and I've said this before) that people are creating a problem where there is none. If someone was being denied the chance to participate based on color I'd have a problem with the whole thing as well but I don't see that being the case.
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leaverbiner
Oct 14, 2003, 8:27 PM
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Pico23 - solid response. However, look at my post again because I did say that ther were 2 primary ways that most climbers probably got their start (1) friends and (2) going out in their backyard and being on their own having fun. My point was that not only has climbing, by way of gyms, come to the cities, but more and more diversity has finally come to the suburbs and beyond so a more diverse crowd of kids will have the opportunity to explore their backyards and possibly find climbing to be something that interests them. At least in my opinion, it is much more likely that a kid will stumble upon climbing when he has boulders or cliffs within walking distance that he stumbles upon (hopefully not off of) than for a kid that grows up in the concrete jungle.
I think a lot of the posts above even support my feelings on the growth of diversity in sports in america . . . sports that even when I was a kid were prodominantly comprised of white middle and upperclass kids are becoming more and more racially (not to mention gender) diverse . . . Ice Hockey is a great example, golf is another (granted there is something to be said for the Tiger effect, but it started before Tiger) . . . I think it is a wonderful statement and an incredibly positive step to a racially and color blind society . . . studies have shown that kids that grow up in athletics, particularly traditionally integrated sports, tend to be far more receptive to and accepting of other races and ethnicities. Sports becomes a common denominator and allows kids to break down stereotypes and cross barriers and see each other as simply people, people with common interests, passions, goals, and problems . . . forgive me I ramble . .
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veep23
Oct 15, 2003, 1:32 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: They are outdated social constructs developed over the ages to keep those of one color (depending on locale) in power. Race isn't science, it's social conditioning. Dude, The art of the Troll is in its subtlety. You are way too obvious. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Huh? Too obvious about my view on this issue? I don't get ya.
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jono
Oct 15, 2003, 2:34 AM
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dude, he thinks ur a troll.
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climbforchrist
Oct 15, 2003, 9:30 PM
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I'm gonna have to agree with the last few posts. Most sports in American started out as perdominately white but as they gained more exposure, and minorites took an intrests in them (along with social changes) things have changed drastically for the better. Other than that I don't think this thread is relevant anymore.
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climb_plastic
Oct 16, 2003, 12:25 AM
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In reply to: Other than that I don't think this thread is relevant anymore.
This thread is definitely not relevent anymore. It started off as a question if other people noticed that this sport is predominantly white and why is it. It somehow turned into a discussion of are blacks better athletes than whites. I'm not going to answer that because that's not even the point of the question. Of course blacks are better athletes. You don't see a lot of them climbing because most of them don't want to do it. They think it's stupid and they're probably right.
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