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roughster
Oct 22, 2003, 5:47 AM
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In reply to: ad hominem attacks on individuals -- or, in the case, whole groups -- are the perennial tool of choice of those who cannot build a logical case on merit or fact.
In reply to: it's obvious that you're typing with one hand while you "massage" yourself with the other. so aaron...did kennedy enjoy the highly personal service you performed for him? wipe that mayo off your chin now, boyo....you frikkin polesmoker.
LOL your posts are so hypocritical its laughable. At least your exposed for the childish lame ass you really are not the half assed intellectual you try to come off as.
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poodlemonkey
Oct 22, 2003, 7:49 AM
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For the record. Access to Upper Caņon Tajo is controlled by an Ejido, which is a communal land grant. The Ejido has a governing body. To my knowledge, Dave Kennedy has been in contact with them. I do not believe he would consider publishing against their wishes. I have seen a lot of crap in my day, but to call car camping with video, stereo and a blender a wilderness experience ... well that is laughable. As far as being sensitive environmentally, the 60 or so goats that graze there don't really give a damn whether there is a brightly colored piece of paper or plastic to eat from time to time. They also do not care if they piss in the wash/watercourse. The adventure of climbing there will be the same because it is 22 miles from the nearest pavement, guidebook or not. Many of the "incidents" that have "occurred" there were fabricated and disseminated to discourage people from going down there. I suggest that we look at this whole thing under the light of truth and reason. I further suggest that credit and respect are due the major contributors to the area, but if they don't want that, then just give routes numbers instead of names and provide a topo and a rating by consensus. The information will get better as time goes on, and I for one welcome it.
Finally, I suggest to all of the people so vehemently opposed to the guidebook, don't buy one. And to those who want to "adventure" climb (is that any different from regular climbing?? I already know the answer.) DON'T USE THE GUIDEBOOK. But don't tell me how I should practice climbing as I see fit . . . I am a climber and that will just make me loosen my grip a bit and if you don't understand that, then maybe you should try it sometime.
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rockfax
Oct 22, 2003, 1:36 PM
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I sincerely hope that this doesn't result in violence, car tyre slashing and locked gates.....
Mick
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bvb
Oct 22, 2003, 1:55 PM
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roughster wrote:
THIS
and then
bvb wrote:
THAT
and then
roughster wrote
THIS
and then
bvb wrote:
THAT
ad nauseum
actually aaron, all that happened is once i figured out that i was dealing with a codpiece troll who probably rode to school on the short bus, i figured i'd just switch into good old
STFU, n00b mode.
loser.
you're so vain....you probably think this thread is about you
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rockfax
Oct 22, 2003, 3:02 PM
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May I suggest a compromise.
Rather than a full blown guidebook to Canon Tajo, why not a slim volume with just the logistics and directions....no route information.
Why don't all the interested parties get together in a local San Diego tavern and discuss this (no fisticuffs)?
With two presentations, one FOR A GUIDEBOOK and ONE AGAINST A GUIDEBOOK.
Mick
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jv
Oct 22, 2003, 4:32 PM
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In reply to: For the record. Access to Upper Caņon Tajo is controlled by an Ejido, which is a communal land grant. The Ejido has a governing body. To my knowledge, Dave Kennedy has been in contact with them. I do not believe he would consider publishing against their wishes.
Kennedy did not indicate that to me. To the best of my knowledge, he has not spoken to anyone in the Ejido about this, much less gotten permission from the governing body to publish a guidebook. I think his position now is that he doesn't need anybody's permission. I would like to get some clarification on this from Kennedy in this forum.
In reply to: The adventure of climbing there will be the same because it is 22 miles from the nearest pavement, guidebook or not.
This is a good point. I actually don't think a guide is going to change the quality of anyone's _climbing_ experience. The rocks will hold up just fine, and there are plenty of routes. It's the wear and tear on the limited area now used for camping, and the inevitable blazing of new roads, camp sites, fire pits and so on, that concerns me most.
In reply to: I further suggest that credit and respect are due the major contributors to the area, but if they don't want that, then just give routes numbers instead of names and provide a topo and a rating by consensus. The information will get better as time goes on, and I for one welcome it.
I think you misperceive the problem. This isn't about keeping route information secret, and it's not about having topos showing you where the crux is; it's about preserving the low key quality of the experience. A long time ago, the 'major contributors' decided not to publish a guide, but to share information informally. It's a policy that has worked really well. Now a handful of people want to change that against the wishes of the majority of people who use the place.
In reply to: Finally, I suggest to all of the people so vehemently opposed to the guidebook, don't buy one. And to those who want to "adventure" climb (is that any different from regular climbing??
Again, this isn't about keeping topos secret, it's about slowing the inevitable degradation due to increased use. If those who use the place now don't buy a guidebook, that doesn't solve the problem created by publishing one.
In reply to: DON'T USE THE GUIDEBOOK. But don't tell me how I should practice climbing as I see fit.
But it's OK for you and Kennedy to dictate to us how this crucial issue be decided?
JV
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hasbeen
Oct 22, 2003, 4:47 PM
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Hear, Hear,
And every climbing area gets to send one reprentative. Climbers from those areas will vote on whether to send a for or against person. Then this group will vote and select one person to voice their collective views.
Furthermore, each state should be allowed to send 2 slightly more powerful reps that are voted on by all the climbers in each state. This group will also have its appointed leader, voted in by its constituents.
And since someone needs to preside of all this hullabaloo should the groups not see eye to eye, all climbers nationwide should vote for one person (let's call them a President). The only rule is that Florida, not having many climbers, is watched closely for suspicious behavior. This person wil be able to weigh both sides and have final say, which can be overturned only by a 2/3 majority vote in the other two groups.
And furthermore, the President will get to appoint a court that rules on how to act toward all acts of vandalism, robbery, and poor first ascent ethics that occur in Canon Tajo.
The only caveat being the the routes all lie across the boarder, so that this group will have no real power once its laws have been laid out. So we'll have to require that all the climbers pitch in money. Then the two groups and the President must decide on how to use it. Certainly, the more liberal sides, not wanting to disturb the lifestyle of a beautiful and peaceful country, will vote to use the money to bribe both police and bandidos in order to keep the status quo. But the conservatives angle will be that some backwards ass county where they don't even speak English doesn't deserve such a resource and the only way to do God justice is to annex it from those evildoers. So in the name of peace, we will then crush the corrupt officials and terrorists by using our money to make lots of bombs then head down to CT and blow the crap out of it.
God Bless America!
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jv
Oct 22, 2003, 4:48 PM
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Since Kennedy has so far declined to make any comment on this forum, I reprint here the public message posted on the Alpinistas' website. The 'Sloth' is John Lohr, who writes the Alpinista newsletter. JV
"Hello fellow climbers,
It seems appropriate that I make some sort of statement regarding a proposed guidebook to Caņon Tajo. The Sloth's initial comments and request for opinions were done from his perspective, as it should be, proving (as if we didn't already know) that he is no one's mouthpiece but his own.
"At any rate, the decision to write and publish a guide to Caņon Tajo was made late last year. I have been accumulating data over the years from a variety of sources, including original FA guys, first hand accounts, internet, etc. The encouragement of climbers over the years helped lead me to believe that not only was it a viable subject for a book but that the timing was finally right. Early this year Joan Bertini, co-author of my second book (just out) called San Diego Adventures, agreed to co-write the Mexico book. Work was begun officially in the spring, and I would say the book is proceeding nicely and will be published some time next year. It may not be the most comprehensive book ever done, but it will
have a lot of valuable info on this complex, remote area. I believe Caņon Tajo belongs to all climbers. This is a tradition of climbing.
"The decision to write any book is not an easy one. It's a tremendous comittment of time and money. Yes there is a financial reward in the success of a book, but the degree of that reward is laughable when compared to the amount of work involved. The artistic satisfaction of envisioning a project and seeing it through, along with the belief that others will benefit, is as much a motivation as anything else. The sharing of knowledge is a cornerstone of our culture. It's how we got smart. People who impart that knowledge are often compensated, but usually poorly. An artist creates work to satisfy himself first. Everything else is gravy.
"As to Caņon Tajo, I see no legitimate reason whatsoever that it should not have a guidebook. I have very carefully considered the pros and cons. Stripped away of the vague concerns over access, the principal argument seems to be about preserving the place as a semi-private resort where most of the "riff raff" is kept at bay. Any journalist who would bow to such pressure should pack away his (or her) keyboard and get into Human Resources.
"Guidebooks can cause a little more impact on the environment. I am prepared to generate funds, manpower, etc. to offset this possibility. I have a lot of experience in this regard. There are other camping options being explored as well. The book will be used to instruct climbers not just on the climbing but on the importance of preserving the natural beauty of the area. I think climbers are up to the task. I see this book as no more than what it is: a little book about a fine area in Mexico that climbers have visited for 30 years. The book is not some grand crusade or a bench to grind axes. Climbers use guidebooks. I write guidebooks. I am writing this one. Anyone who wishes to help on this project, either
directly or indirectly, would be welcome. Reach me at dpoint@utm.net with beta, photos, whatever.
Happy trails,
Dave Kennedy
Deadpoint Press
[ This message was edited on Sun Oct 19 '03 by the author ] "
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bvb
Oct 22, 2003, 4:56 PM
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anyone who would sincerely like to understand the enormous scope of issues and impacts involved in publishing a guidebook to a previously undocumented area -- especialy a place as large and complex as canon tajo -- should take the time to read an artice called "the guidebook problem", published in the 1973 issue of ascent magazine. it's the best analysis of the pros/cons of guidebooks ever written, and offers the perspective of every significant guidebook author of the day. after over 30 years, the comments, analysis and assessments of the folks featured in the article have become even more relevent, as there are so very many more climbers now than there were in 1973....
i'll try to figure out some way to scan it or post it, so that interested parties can take a glance. it should be required reading for anyone interested in the issues surrounding guidebook publishing -- especially freshman guides to places like canon tajo.
edit: jv, might as well let folks have a look at the whole ct thread on the alpinistas website -- not a lot of support for a guid e there, either.
http://www.alpinistas.org/ceilidh/index.htm
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ukwill
Oct 22, 2003, 10:42 PM
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What a load of bollox (as we say in over here)
'Romance', 'Adventure climbing', 'bolted slab'
Hmm, not words I'd normally stick together myself. It may be secluded but if it's bolted and a couple of hours from the border it's certainly not adventure climbing. Not that I'm particularly against bolted climbs, just let's not get carried away by calling the soothing whine of a freshly charged Hilti 'romantic'. (If it is, you need to log off and get out more)
Certainly a well produced guide is likely to increase the number of climbers going there, but I fail to see why that necessarily means the place is going to turn into some litter-strewn, graffiti covered toilet like El Potrero, for example. (Mind you, it's not generally visiting climbers in El Potrero spray-painting the rock, leaving blue plastic bags and crapping everywhere).
Are you all sure there's not just a hint of the ol' who's-been-climbing-at-MY-crag syndrome about this, posing as the moral high ground?
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roughster
Oct 22, 2003, 10:44 PM
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In reply to: roughster wrote: THIS and then bvb wrote: THAT actually aaron, all that happened is once i figured out that i was dealing with a codpiece troll who probably rode to school on the short bus, i figured i'd just switch into good old
Or you could have just summed it up by saing, "DOH, I got pwned!" Heheh :lol:
Bob, your the one that lead us astray from the main issue and into the realm of slander tactics. I am perfectly fine sticking with the main issue, but I guess your ego prohibits you from seeing that others have a different perspective. I fully understand that you and I do not agree and that we most likely never will. I can live with it, are you man enough to?
What has been interesting to see is the initial claims that "no one supports it", to a few, to a "handfull". Then it comes Dave has talked about perserving the feel of the area, addressing access issues, etc... Like I said earlier, its easy to try and villify someone, but its not always the smartest thing to do, especially when you have to start saying things that you either know aren't true or are "guessing" that people have or have not done.
Its too bad Dave won't respond (though I can understand why he wouldn't with the childish posts Bob has been so easily willing to degrade to), but I assume eventually it will get to the point where he will not be able to bite his tongue any longer.
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bvb
Oct 22, 2003, 11:31 PM
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STFU (on a loop). Anyone who wants to review the chain of this thread is free to start at the top, read to the bottom, and draw their own conclusions. I do have one question, though...
just who do you think you're fooling, aaron? and could your please remove your hand from your pants?
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ronamick
Oct 23, 2003, 4:31 AM
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Is that Kennedy quote for real? A "semi private resort where the riff-raff is kept at bay?". This guy is a real piece of work. He launches into this huge scholarly dissertation about contributing to society and giving something of value back to mankind at great personal sacrifice, and all this other altruistic claptrap that actually had me, the eternal cynic, going there for a minute, then destroys his expertly construced facade of objectivity with a flippant and boorish remark like that.
Objectivity, reason and all that good stuff requires something that I have yet to see from DK or his syncophantic minions. That being fair consideration of opposing points of view. This talk of weighing pros and cons and wanting to do what's honorable and right is lip service. It has to be, because someone who is really committed to public debate and honest discourse wouldn't dismiss a differing point of view with such abject belttlement and disrespect. His offhand and absolute rejection, nay ridicule, of any opinion that runs counter to his says it all. Logic, reason, truth, justice, etc. are only useful as long as they serve his cause, and clearly disposable when they get in the way.
If one is not willing to change his mind in the face of compelling argument, not open to the merits and validity of other points of view, and not interested in trying to understand anyone else's concerns, no claim to righteousness of purpose or public servitude can be made.
And why isn't the principal in this soap opera willing to talk it out in person, and make himself accessable to those with concerns about his plans? He sends a message; decree by vassal to placate the masses? Knowing there is much opposition, he issues a big ol' statement by proxy. What kind of pompous deal is that? The only member of DK's camp that I have had personal communication with refuses to give his name, and spewed an explosive vehemence (along strict party lines) that really didn't address much of what I had written him. He came off as a poorly trained, inexperienced and somewhat inarticulate attack dog manning the fences of camp DK. He probably thought he was shredding opposition to the master plan, but needs to improve alot just to become a distraction. Neverthless, evidence of this kind of isolation and mindless lashing out at any hint of "the enemy" is kind of creepy. The Kennedy cult? Surround yourself with committed dimwits who occupy your detractors while you do your grand deeds..... Koresh, Jones, Moon and..... nah.
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okinawatricam
Oct 23, 2003, 6:02 AM
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Adventure CLimbing at Last.
Not only should the Guide Book to this area not be publish, but no climbing guidebooks should be publish for any area. Think of how wonder your precious weekends will become trashing around the Sierras looking for a worth while climb than, or the next trip into Jtree. Of course no guide to Yosemite sure would clear up the "zoo" oops I meant the "Nose."
I propose that all guide books be baned.
Except the one I am writing on Okinawa of course.
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sonso45
Oct 23, 2003, 11:36 PM
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Just got back from Canon Tajo. I got as far as a rocky wash that required 4wd, which I don't have. I couldn't get any closer. In practical terms, I pm'd some of the folks on this thread who said "all you have to do is ask" and I got no replys. I went anyway, and nearly got stuck trying to pass the wash. Not knowing how far we would have to walk, we just explored Canon Guadalupe instead and had a nice time. At least some basic info on the place would be nice and safer than just busting around. It looked beautiful and I plan to return. Hopefully with guidebook in hand. M
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freezerfrost
Oct 23, 2003, 11:43 PM
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I climbed in canon tajo a lot when I lived in San Diego. Even put up a couple routes. I liked having to explore to discover where routes were. It would not be progress, imho, to publish a guidebook for the area. Besides, without the help of Curly or Smallwood, the guidebook would suck. In the long run though, that place has its own natural defenses.
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jv
Oct 24, 2003, 12:57 AM
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In reply to: Just got back from Canon Tajo. I got as far as a rocky wash that required 4wd, which I don't have. I couldn't get any closer. In practical terms, I pm'd some of the folks on this thread who said "all you have to do is ask" and I got no replys.
I said that and you didn't pm me. At least I don't think you did. Isn't it supposed to notify me? Use email. More reliable. jkvawter@cox.net Give me a few days. I'm moving my office this weekend.
JV
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bvb
Oct 24, 2003, 4:37 AM
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so sonso45, exactly WHO did you PM? name names. let's get to the bottom of it. and if you went on to explore canon guadalupe, it sounds like you were at the bottom of the eastern escarpment, on the laguna salada? that would be WAY off base for approaching canon tajo. and if you were on top founding your way into guadalupe from the summit of the escarpment would be an extraordinary feat of navigation.
in any case, PM me. i'll respond with a set of topos for some of the best routes (circa 1980, anyway), and a bombproof approach map based on the most current SGDM topo maps. i'm in flag, it'd be no sweat to get the materials to you.
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esoteric1
Oct 25, 2003, 12:54 PM
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I pm`d ya bvb, and did i get a response? nooooo.
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bvb
Oct 25, 2003, 5:37 PM
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what, you expect 15 minute turnaround? some of us have lives, jack. sonso45's stuff is just about to go out in the mail. you? you just won a spot back down at the bottom of my inbox. i just might do a little homework to make sure you're not just gonna turn around and hand this stuff to kennedy.
do you know him? do you climb with him? are you helping him with his book in any form or fashion whatsoever? honest answer, please.
for future refernce, it's a good idea to NOT be a snide little snot with someone you're looking to for help/beta/whatever. if you were wondering what the holdup was, ya shoulda pm'd me again. in fact, why didn't you send me a follow-up pm, if you were concerned?
now i'm suspicious of your motives. probably with good reason.
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ronamick
Oct 25, 2003, 11:21 PM
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In reply to: Adventure CLimbing at Last. Not only should the Guide Book to this area not be publish, but no climbing guidebooks should be publish for any area. Think of how wonder your precious weekends will become trashing around the Sierras looking for a worth while climb than, or the next trip into Jtree. Of course no guide to Yosemite sure would clear up the "zoo" oops I meant the "Nose." I propose that all guide books be baned. Except the one I am writing on Okinawa of course.
Dude-san. I hear you loud and clear. I propose that implementation of your guidebook ban should begin as soon as I can get my obsolete old guides back in print and sell enough of them to cover printing costs and a new pair of shoes. If you can finish your guide to okeydokey by then (under a pen-name of course, I reccomend that you use the name Yoshi Hurichiomaki for this purpose), and send a million copies to the untapped Chinese Rockclimbing demographic, we can ban them all and hook up for an ascent of the Direct North Face of Mt. Fuji.
Ichiban, Ron
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poodlemonkey
Oct 26, 2003, 1:56 AM
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Just in case some of the posters had not been notified, the following facts may be of some interest:
1. There are more climbers in a single gym on a single night of the week than there were in all of San Diego County 30 years ago.
2. It is not 25 years ago. This is 2003.
3. We all (yes even C.T. climbers) now share the planet with 6.5 BILLION (!!!!) other people.
4. Your opinions are all valid opinions.
5. There will be a book.
6. No one will ever force you to use a guidebook.
7. Things change and no one has ever been able to stop that.
8. Actual outcomes are ALMOST NEVER as bad as fear-based projections.
9. Mexico will always be Mexico.
10. 22 miles of dirt road will always be 22 miles of dirt road.
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poodlemonkey
Oct 26, 2003, 2:06 AM
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Nail hit squarely on head! You have voiced my feelings as well, thank you.
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bvb
Oct 26, 2003, 2:22 AM
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and your point is....?
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poodlemonkey
Oct 26, 2003, 2:24 AM
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I just realized after reading damn near this whole thread that, ironic as it is, what we have here is . . . A MEXICAN STANDOFF !
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Re: Canon Tajo Guidebook???
[
