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xcire


Oct 22, 2003, 5:08 PM
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A question for all trad climbers
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Being that I am pretty new to this sport I have a few questions. Does climbing a route that has been bolted really affect you? I have done some searches on this and I came up empty. All I could find was people complaining that it tears up nature like trampling trough trails to get to our favorite climbing spot doesn't. I just want to know if these bolts(which i look at as the step between gym climbing and trad) are really that bad. Im not saying that everyone should just run out and start bolting but if you find a new route and love it so much you want to try and protect it wouldnt you want us who choose to sport climb for, whatever reason, to see it to? If you have nothing constructive to say go bash on another thread. I am trully trying to see something from someone elses point of view.


ricardol


Oct 22, 2003, 5:14 PM
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in my mind -- bolting is fine as long as there are no trad placements that could be made instead ..

.. a bolt next to a crack is lame ..

there are exceptions to that rule .. (ie: bad rock, etc)

-- ricardo


xcire


Oct 22, 2003, 5:19 PM
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Where my question is what about us who can not set trad yet I would like that bolt next to a crack so i can climb it also. Is this wrong?


curt


Oct 22, 2003, 5:26 PM
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In reply to:
Where my question is what about us who can not set trad yet I would like that bolt next to a crack so i can climb it also. Is this wrong?

Yes. That is absolutely wrong.

Curt


ropeburn


Oct 22, 2003, 5:29 PM
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In reply to:
Where my question is what about us who can not set trad yet I would like that bolt next to a crack so i can climb it also. Is this wrong?

Yes.

Think about it, the crack you are lusting over was probably FA'd on trad gear before any gyms were opened. So just find someone around you that climbs trad, buy them lots of beer, second them up everything you can, and finally sack up and start leading easy trad. Don't fall into the "well I started in the gym so I can't lead trad until I can onsight sport .12's" mindset. Just start easy and work up. Post a picture or a TR of the climb after you send it.

:mrgreen:


mike_hunt


Oct 22, 2003, 5:37 PM
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In reply to:
Being that I am pretty new to this sport I have a few questions. Does climbing a route that has been bolted really affect you?

Not quite as much of an effect as climbing a route where route finding is more of a challenge than connecting the dots, and having to use experience to find gear placements.


mike_hunt


Oct 22, 2003, 5:38 PM
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Im not saying that everyone should just run out and start bolting but if you find a new route and love it so much you want to try and protect it wouldnt you want us who choose to sport climb for, whatever reason, to see it to?

When I figure out what the actual question is here, I will try to answer.....


rizzuh


Oct 22, 2003, 5:49 PM
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xcire... i often find myself in the same situation... since i only lead 5.7 trad. Yeah, i guess it'd be wrong to bolt up the tougher trad lines so it'd be easier to lead... but this is why i'm getting into aid climbing. As an aid climber i'll be able to race up any 5.14... no problems.


flamer


Oct 22, 2003, 5:58 PM
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In reply to:
xcire... i often find myself in the same situation... since i only lead 5.7 trad. Yeah, i guess it'd be wrong to bolt up the tougher trad lines so it'd be easier to lead... but this is why i'm getting into aid climbing. As an aid climber i'll be able to race up any 5.14... no problems.

What if it's 5.14X???
And if you think you're going to be "racing" anywhere aid climbing, then you haven't done much aid climbing!!!
josh


ricardol


Oct 22, 2003, 6:08 PM
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In reply to:
Where my question is what about us who can not set trad yet I would like that bolt next to a crack so i can climb it also. Is this wrong?

.. yes --

if you want to climb a route that requires trad gear . then learn ..

-- ricardo


thurgood


Oct 22, 2003, 6:09 PM
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bolts are bad, blah blah blah, i climb trad so im a real man. it seems like this is all i ever here from this message board. how can anyone make a blanket statement that bolting next to a crack is wrong. absolutely wrong even. lighten up. as long people get the proper authorization it doesn't matter if the fa was done on trad with no chalk and no sticky rubber. i feel confident using my mad rock fingers that im having a good time. share the rock. i think they shoud build a ladder up most climbs jst so it easier to take pictures of climbers. this was supposed to be a serioius post, but I sort of lost interest in making sense.


flagstaff_climber


Oct 22, 2003, 6:14 PM
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Why should climbs be altered just so you, or anybody else can climb them ? If you want to climb crack then learn trad.

And if you wanna learn some trad drop me a pm I would be happy to let you second on some crack climbs, it is a great way to learn.

Rick


soccer_fan


Oct 22, 2003, 6:18 PM
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Some bolted routes were originally trad routes that have been retro bolted, and still can be let as a trad route. Graneted this takes most of route-finding out of the equation, but you can lead it how you like. I personally don't think that cracks should be bolted unless for top-anchors. Speaking of top-anchors, what is the typical ethic for those?

Note: I don't plan on bolting anything, just wondering...


mike_hunt


Oct 22, 2003, 6:20 PM
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In reply to:
Why should climbs be altered just so you, or anybody else can climb them ? If you want to climb crack then learn trad.

And if you wanna learn some trad drop me a pm I would be happy to let you second on some crack climbs, it is a great way to learn.

Rick

hey flagstaff_climber, how's the weather over there at the Forks these days? Any chance you wanna meet up with a Las Vegan and show off some routes? I seen those pics of you sending that sh*t!!


savedbymynuts


Oct 22, 2003, 6:23 PM
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In reply to:
Where my question is what about us who can not set trad yet I would like that bolt next to a crack so i can climb it also. Is this wrong?
Why not TR nothing wrong with TR. When you feel really confident with the route then learn on that rout to place protections.

The only time I feel it is ok to bolt beside a crack is when the area a known sport crag. Most of the climbing community in that area do not bring trad gear to climb at that crag.


corpse


Oct 22, 2003, 6:39 PM
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Here's my take on it.
I'm a "new" climber... I have climbed in the gym a couple years, and got into trad this summer. I never once considered sport climbing - I don't have that physique to hammer up a hard climb yet, but I do have the brains and determination and sense of adventure - trad all the way! I'm not a real strong climber, perhaps my hardest redpoint is like a 10a,
Why I trad...
I enjoy the problem solving..
I like being responsible for my own safety..
I like to listen to the jingle of my nuts as I climb..
I feel I am always going to learn something cool - not necessarily technique in climbing, but in gear placement, anchor setup, whatever..

I'm not a major outdoorsie person, but I think bolting by a crack is also generally wrong. As others have said, I can see some viable cases. I also don't care about ppl sinking some bolts in. It would take us humans at least a thousand years to make a BIG IMPACT to the rock formations, and in that amount of time, if we are still on this planet, then those areas will be built with 100 story condo's. And by then, they will be artifacts, like finding fossils today :-) If you can bolt an x rated 10a trad climb cuz the protection really stink, then put bolts in a few places to make it safe.


orangekyak


Oct 22, 2003, 6:59 PM
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Doctor: Nurse, get me 500 cc's of old school, STAT!

Nurse: But Doctor, the old school are tired of repeating themselves! Why are n00bs so fekkin insensitive?

Doctor: We must not give up hope! We're seeing more and more cases of this! As long as those crack(less) dens (aka climbing gyms) keep churning out n00bs we must bring them into the fold one at a time ...

Nurse: But doctor, the ethics in this thread have completely flatlined ______


xcire


Oct 22, 2003, 7:26 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Where my question is what about us who can not set trad yet I would like that bolt next to a crack so i can climb it also. Is this wrong?

.. yes --

if you want to climb a route that requires trad gear . then learn ..

-- ricardo
I just want to know what makes people think they have the right to keep someone from bolting a route. Just cause it was first done by someone (in my mind) doesnt give them anymore say than anyone else. Not to take anything away from them but there is alot of rock out there whats the big deal. Im not trying to start anything I just want to know if there is a real reason other than the whole trad mentality that they have the right to keep stuff from being bolted, keep in mind i do plan to climb trad one day


sharpender


Oct 22, 2003, 7:45 PM
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Adrenline Junkie Wrote:
In reply to:
If you can bolt an x rated 10a trad climb cuz the protection really stink, then put bolts in a few places to make it safe.

Leave your hands off. Geez. From the rest of your post you need to grow up. Perhaps go back to school. Study, anthorpology, economics, environmentalism and just plain pay attention to the real world. By your post, Yosemite Valley is going to be elbow to earlobe with 100 story condos. If you can't learn to climb it the way the first ascent team did - and with todays gear yet - stay in the gym, or go play golf. Now there's environmental impact. :roll:


soma


Oct 22, 2003, 7:47 PM
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I just want to know what makes people think they have the right to keep someone from bolting a route. Just cause it was first done by someone (in my mind) doesnt give them anymore say than anyone else. Not to take anything away from them but there is alot of rock out there whats the big deal. Im not trying to start anything I just want to know if there is a real reason other than the whole trad mentality that they have the right to keep stuff from being bolted, keep in mind i do plan to climb trad one day

How about this then.. You go find your own crack. FA and bolt it.

I have only lead extreamly easy trad, which I could have soloed but I respect the tradition underlying trad routes and more so the balls (or the female equivalent) that is required for leading difficult trad routes.

I keep thinking your posts are trolls and if so, well done.

How will you "climb trad one day" if all the trad routes are bolted?


Dave


curt


Oct 22, 2003, 7:48 PM
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xcire,
In reply to:
I just want to know what makes people think they have the right to keep someone from bolting a route. Just cause it was first done by someone (in my mind) doesnt give them anymore say than anyone else. Not to take anything away from them but there is alot of rock out there whats the big deal.
You make a couple of good points here, but they conflict with one another. There is indeed a lot of rock out there. That is reason enough not to go back and mess with a route that has been established, in a certain style, and enjoyed by other climbers--perhaps for many many years. Because there is a lot of rock out there (and if you have some burning desire to put bolts in the rock) by all means go find some new route that has not yet been done--and place your bolts there.

In that case, the worst thing you can do is create a route that is a piece of crap. By adding bolts to an existing climb however, you can destroy an asset that is much valued by the general climbing community.

Curt


hello_heino


Oct 22, 2003, 7:50 PM
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Heino thinks that tradition and respect are ok qualities to have and that acceptance of the way a consensus of people have decided to do things makes a lot of sense, saves a lot of energy, and leads to maximization of experience.


sharpender


Oct 22, 2003, 7:51 PM
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xcire You can't even write a coherent sentence. Perhaps you should be in Uranus. You don't have the judgement to decide to bolt a crack/trad climb. It is this simple. It does not need to be bolted. It can be climbed just fine without bolts. Hey here's a thought. Have Nascar put in rails below the pavement, so noobs and boneheads can drive 195 mph in a race just like the big boys. Those slot car tracks will make it possible for them and safe for everybody. Geez. Again. :roll:


jt512


Oct 22, 2003, 7:57 PM
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In reply to:
You make a couple of good points here, but they conflict with one another.

I can envision many uses on the internet for such a line. I may have to steal it, Curt.

-Jay


xcire


Oct 22, 2003, 7:59 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I just want to know what makes people think they have the right to keep someone from bolting a route. Just cause it was first done by someone (in my mind) doesnt give them anymore say than anyone else. Not to take anything away from them but there is alot of rock out there whats the big deal. Im not trying to start anything I just want to know if there is a real reason other than the whole trad mentality that they have the right to keep stuff from being bolted, keep in mind i do plan to climb trad one day

How about this then.. You go find your own crack. FA and bolt it.

I have only lead extremely easy trad, which I could have soloed but I respect the tradition underlying trad routes and more so the balls (or the female equivalent) that is required for leading difficult trad routes.

I keep thinking your posts are trolls and if so, well done.

How will you "climb trad one day" if all the trad routes are bolted?


Dave

Thats what my question is if a routes bolted cant you still climb it using trad. And to the do it like it was done in the beggining i dont see anyone ridding a horse to work. Humans improve things times change and no this is not a troll just wanted to see if there was a physical reason or if it was just a respect for fist ascents. I have no plans of bolting anything just trying to learn.


xcire


Oct 22, 2003, 8:05 PM
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In reply to:
xcire You can't even write a coherent sentence. Perhaps you should be in Uranus. You don't have the judgement to decide to bolt a crack/trad climb. It is this simple. It does not need to be bolted. It can be climbed just fine without bolts. Hey here's a thought. Have Nascar put in rails below the pavement, so noobs and boneheads can drive 195 mph in a race just like the big boys. Those slot car tracks will make it possible for them and safe for everybody. Geez. Again. :roll:

This would fall under the "jack asses please dont post on my thread" category. Why would you need to start off with an insult? All I am trying to do is learn. I just wanted to know if the bolt along a route would imped a trad climb in any other way than a respect issue. I hope you dont reproduce god know what you would say to a child that asked a question. Im not perfect and dont claim to be, ever thought of maybe just helping someone with a little advice, much more helpful than insults


soma


Oct 22, 2003, 8:06 PM
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In reply to:

Thats what my question is if a routes bolted cant you still climb it using trad. And to the do it like it was done in the beggining i dont see anyone ridding a horse to work. Humans improve things times change and no this is not a troll just wanted to see if there was a physical reason or if it was just a respect for fist ascents. I have no plans of bolting anything just trying to learn.

Sport routes are usually ("traditionally") unprotectable. Have you ever climbed a thin line? Try placing a peice of gear that will support you in the event of a fall on a crimp. It will not happen. This brings up the general (and far from perfect) generalization that crack climbs can be traditionally protected (with cams), while difficult face climbing can not.

Dave


johnnord


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Maybe this will help. Think of a climb as someone's creation, a work of art if you will. The idea is that everyone who climbs the creation should do it the way the creator did it. Few of us would walk into a museum and start altering the paintings on the wall. We accept the creation as it is. Same way with a climb? It's not an ethic, it's an aesthetic.


xcire


Oct 22, 2003, 8:14 PM
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In reply to:
Maybe this will help. Think of a climb as someone's creation, a work of art if you will. The idea is that everyone who climbs the creation should do it the way the creator did it. Few of us would walk into a museum and start altering the paintings on the wall. We accept the creation as it is. Same way with a climb? It's not an ethic, it's an aesthetic.

This is what i was looking for THANK YOU VERY MUCH


bones


Oct 22, 2003, 8:21 PM
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xcire, is there any reason I shouldn't put up a via ferrata on your favorite bolted route? I mean, you could still climb it without using the iron pegs right?
The "you don't have to clip the bolt" argument has been discussed to death and most climbers, both sport and trad, agree that it's not okay to bolt next to gear placements in most situations.

Once you start trad climbing, you will understand. It just makes you feel good to climb a route in the least invasive style.


davidji


Oct 22, 2003, 8:36 PM
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In reply to:
The only time I feel it is ok to bolt beside a crack is when the area a known sport crag. Most of the climbing community in that area do not bring trad gear to climb at that crag.
Yup, there are a few places in the USA where it's accepted (e.g. Owen's River Gorge), and I think some places in Europe as well. Bolted cracks can be pretty fun to climb, but leave 'em in the sport climbing areas. Or where the crack won't hold pro. Or the Valley :wink: (ever seen the cover of Yosemite Free Climbs, 2nd edition, Falcon Press?).


alpnclmbr1


Oct 22, 2003, 8:43 PM
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In reply to:
Thats what my question is if a routes bolted cant you still climb it using trad. And to the do it like it was done in the beggining i dont see anyone ridding a horse to work. Humans improve things times change and no this is not a troll just wanted to see if there was a physical reason or if it was just a respect for fist ascents. I have no plans of bolting anything just trying to learn.

I guess I will try,

So climbing started with traditional methods. Then the use of bolts became accepted in a limited manner in aid climbing. Then free climbers realized that bolts made possible new styles and types of climbing. Then the wars started over what was the appropriate use of bolts. This wasnít a war between trad and sport because that division hadnít formed yet. Climberís came to the compromise that bolts were only to be used where there was no other option.

Now comes the new age gumbie that knows nothing about the history and traditions of climbing, and he says why canít I climb a crack with bolts?
There are two reasons,

1) anyone with the equipment and skill necessary to place bolts also has the trad gear and knowledge to climb the crack with gear which would be easier then bolting it anyway.

2) due to the original compromise he knows that someone would chop the bolts anyway.

As far as why you canít trad climb a bolted crack. It is because if you got scared on lead you know in the back of your mind that all you have to do is clip that shiny bolt sitting there to be safe. This totally ruins the whole point of trad which is all about relying on your own abilities and skills to keep yourself safe.


squish


Oct 22, 2003, 8:50 PM
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Thats what my question is if a routes bolted cant you still climb it using trad.

Short answer, no, you can't.

By adding bolts, you take away from the experience.

You sound as though you've never explored any challenges in climbing beyond the physical movement. If you don't have any experience in this area, you'll have a hard time understanding the answer to your question.

Were you to add bolts to a route and then decide to climb it in traditional style, what do you think would happen?

"I'm not sure which way to go."
(Oh, there's the next one.) CLIP.

"I can't get adequate protection. Should I continue or back off?"
(Hmm. I think I'll just use this one.) CLIP.

"I'm scared."
CLIP.

"I'm pumped."
CLIP. (Take!)

etc. etc...

It's OK if you don't have the sense of adventure that some other climbers seem to have. You can continue being happy clipping bolts and never stray from your comfort zone, but to take the adventure away from others through your own selfish ignorance is plain wrong.


roc_klimber


Oct 22, 2003, 8:51 PM
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Trad is pure climbing. bolts take away from the pureness of trad. i say if you cant climb it yourself then dont be greedy and modify the route to your specific tasts. leave it so someone else can get the fa or whatever. in short: DONT BE GREEDY.


soccer_fan


Oct 22, 2003, 9:09 PM
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The artwork analogy is good - whoever the FA of a route is figured out how to get up that particular line of rock, and out of respect for that route it should stay as put up (either natural pro or bolted). Someone mentioned its hard to protect most face climbs so those aren't for trad, while most cracks are typically trad routes, just the nature of the beast.


flagstaff_climber


Oct 22, 2003, 9:09 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Why should climbs be altered just so you, or anybody else can climb them ? If you want to climb crack then learn trad.

And if you wanna learn some trad drop me a pm I would be happy to let you second on some crack climbs, it is a great way to learn.

Rick

hey flagstaff_climber, how's the weather over there at the Forks these days? Any chance you wanna meet up with a Las Vegan and show off some routes? I seen those pics of you sending that sh*t!!


The weather is great here right now, PM me if you would like to come down.

Rick


bustinmins


Oct 22, 2003, 9:45 PM
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In reply to:
Where my question is what about us who can not set trad yet I would like that bolt next to a crack so i can climb it also. Is this wrong?

While I can see your point - just wanting to climb the classics without having to learn, purchase and place pro - I can also see an argument for increased safety as well. HOWEVER - these routes were never meant to be bolted and here is why.

Think about this:

What if we could go an alter/edit Shakespeare's body of work. Sounds nuts(no pun intended) doesn't it. Why would you do that? You wouldn't - why? because it is a classic. It was written that way, in that time, to be enjoyed in the way it was written. Well classic trad climbs are the same as Shakespeare. If you bolt the classics for all to play on them, then you'll lose the spirit and the adventure that exists presently with those individual climbs. For instance, in Eldorado Canyon, there is a route called Genesis. This route was the hardest route in Eldo until around 1984. This route sports a 25 foot runout(50 foot fall possible) on a mid-grade 5.11(?) route. The route was first led free(trad climbing) by a Boulder resident who had to prepare for this climb while he attended college. He also was the first man to have free soloed The Naked Edge circa 1978. If you were to bolt that 25 foot section of the route, you'd certainly be making it safer but in doing so you'd take away the challenge and the focus of anyone that would choose to repeat this young man's accomplishment. Does this make sense to you? Additionally, in Eldo, there is a route named "Perilous Journey". The route was originally led with rope and pro. However, once the lead got up the 5.11(a-d?) route - he discovered that the jugs that he thought existed(due to analysis of shadows) didn't exist at all. In fact, the route has no place to place any pro for a significant portion of the first 80 feet. Thus, when he climbed it - he realized his predicament. He couldn't down climb safely, thus he had to keep chugging up this route(gracefully) and eventually get to a point where he could place some pro. When he finally made it to the refuge point, he named the route Perilous Journey. Since that day, this route has been dubbed "The Eldo No-Pro Classic". Most people who have climbed this since that day don't bother taking a rope or gear. Not to say that is safer by any means, but they climb it with the expectation of experiencing what the first man did. They want to know what it feels like to feel the union between the climber and the rock. To bolt this route would totally destroy its essence(no matter how much safer it would be).

I hope that I'm not preaching to the choir here but in the sacred trad areas - please don't bolt our routes. No only is it bad for the rock - it removes the original experience from the route and disgraces the route layer's accomplishment.

Peace,

James


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Oct 22, 2003, 10:03 PM
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i, too, like the "art" analogy. and i really like alpnclmbr1's post.

a big problem i have with many of today's young climbers is this: they want something for nothing; to climb hard lines without paying their dues. if we were all to subscribe to that thinking, why not just go ahead and turn every climb (both established and [i:20aaecc501]soon to be established[/i:20aaecc501]) into a cable route complete with spray-painted directions and chiseled holds where needed?

whether you trad, aid, sport, gym climb or boulder, you owe it to yourself, to those who came before you, and to our [i:20aaecc501]sport[/i:20aaecc501] to learn its rich, colorful, and oftentimes tumultuous history.

it is your choice. you can be a [i:20aaecc501]climber[/i:20aaecc501] ... or simply someone who climbs.


bustinmins


Oct 22, 2003, 10:16 PM
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I would have to agree with another reply you received:

If you climb a route that has never been climbed before and you are leading the charge up the route. If, after all of your work, you want to bolt sections of it - then do so - just leave the classics and the classic trad climbing areas alone - this is for your safety as well as the safety of the rock.

I can guarantee you that if anyone began bolting any classic route in Eldorado Canyon, that person would be popped with a snipers bullet fired from a Viet Nam era sniper rifle in the hands of a Boulder Trad Hippie. The witnesses would all say one of two things - (1) I didn't see anything officer, I was eating a Clif Bar(tm). or (2) I saw him right over there - he was on the ledge. However, he was brandishing a deadly weapon and we were all in fear of our lives. The D.A. would never bring charges and the rock would remain pristine(and the placed bolts removed).

:) Have a great week! Thanks for posting something for us all to share.

Peace,

JD


aussiedean


Oct 22, 2003, 10:43 PM
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I climb trad and know that nothing is wrong with a good bolt placement. After all its in the rock to protect you.

Always try to cause minimal impact when entering the area but impact happens everyday wether we like it or not.

Dont worry a
Thinking of climbing all the time is a good thing aswell.


sharpender


Oct 22, 2003, 10:45 PM
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xcire wrote:
In reply to:
I hope you dont reproduce god know what you would say to a child that asked a question.

This is what I meant. That is a run on sentence. Go climb that way. Run out. It works in climbing, but not in sentences. I am just frustrated with the quality of your sentence structure, spelling, paragraph/thought structure. I forget who quoted your sentence, a question that could not be answered because it was incoherent. Work on the coherence. Perhaps you are in high school. If, so, and god forbid if your beyond it already, work on your english classes.

As to your concern about my reproducing, your in luck. It is impossible for me to reproduce. You don't want to know, but it may wait in your future. Unfortunately for you that came to late. I already have a grandchild. In truth I have answered many questions for many children. Small children love me. I listen and communicate at their level. This place is full of adults. A world I presume you are entering. You need to now learn to communicate in writing at an adult level. Edit your questions before you post them and use spell check.

I have followed this thread and it seems your learning here. Listen to these guys/gals. They know what they are talking about. 8)


dynoguy


Oct 22, 2003, 10:54 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I just want to know what makes people think they have the right to keep someone from bolting a route. Just cause it was first done by someone (in my mind) doesnt give them anymore say than anyone else. Not to take anything away from them but there is alot of rock out there whats the big deal. Im not trying to start anything I just want to know if there is a real reason other than the whole trad mentality that they have the right to keep stuff from being bolted, keep in mind i do plan to climb trad one day

How about this then.. You go find your own crack. FA and bolt it.

I have only lead extreamly easy trad, which I could have soloed but I respect the tradition underlying trad routes and more so the balls (or the female equivalent) that is required for leading difficult trad routes.

I keep thinking your posts are trolls and if so, well done.

How will you "climb trad one day" if all the trad routes are bolted?

Dave

I agree cracks shouldn't be bolted if it is possible to trad them. But seriously while can't you lead a bolted climb on trad? Besides making it easier to follow the route.
Just doesn't make sense :roll:


ebelay


Oct 22, 2003, 10:58 PM
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Spellcheck won't catch "your" when it should be "you're" but it will catch "thier" when it should be "their".

Live up to your own rules.

Eric


watersprite


Oct 23, 2003, 2:31 AM
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In reply to:

...Humans improve things times change and no this is not a troll just wanted to see if there was a physical reason or if it was just a respect for fist ascents. I have no plans of bolting anything just trying to learn.


I have a great deal of respect for fist ascents!


desertclimber


Oct 23, 2003, 4:44 AM
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Adapt yourself to the route as it is- bolts or trad. Don't change the route to suit your particular desires.

I feel that when a route exists, following parties need to learn the skills needed to make the ascent, whatever the style.

To exaggerate my point- "Well, the first ascent was done ground up, on aid, placing bolts to make it a sport climb, but I think I'll build a tramway to the top, since I want to. Then, anybody can enjoy it, even if they don't posses the skills to clip bolts."


crag


Oct 23, 2003, 5:04 AM
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Never DUMB down the rock for your own lack of abilities.


johnnord


Oct 23, 2003, 6:05 AM
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In reply to:
xcire wrote:
In reply to:
I hope you dont reproduce god know what you would say to a child that asked a question.

This is what I meant. That is a run on sentence. Go climb that way. Run out. It works in climbing, but not in sentences. I am just frustrated with the quality of your sentence structure, spelling, paragraph/thought structure. I forget who quoted your sentence, a question that could not be answered because it was incoherent. Work on the coherence. Perhaps you are in high school. If, so, and god forbid if your beyond it already, work on your english classes.

As to your concern about my reproducing, your in luck. It is impossible for me to reproduce. You don't want to know, but it may wait in your future. Unfortunately for you that came to late. I already have a grandchild. In truth I have answered many questions for many children.

Small children love me. I listen and communicate at their level. This place is full of adults. A world I presume you are entering. You need to now learn to communicate in writing at an adult level. Edit your questions before you post them and use spell check.

I have followed this thread and it seems your learning here. Listen to these guys/gals. They know what they are talking about. 8)

Capitalize "English.' "Your" should be you're. "A world I presume you are entering." is a fragment. "Edit your questions before you post them (comma) and use spell check."
Sorry, I couldn't resist. :wink:


corpse


Oct 23, 2003, 6:14 AM
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In reply to:
Adrenline Junkie Wrote:
In reply to:
If you can bolt an x rated 10a trad climb cuz the protection really stink, then put bolts in a few places to make it safe.

Leave your hands off. Geez. From the rest of your post you need to grow up. Perhaps go back to school. Study, anthorpology, economics, environmentalism and just plain pay attention to the real world. By your post, Yosemite Valley is going to be elbow to earlobe with 100 story condos. If you can't learn to climb it the way the first ascent team did - and with todays gear yet - stay in the gym, or go play golf. Now there's environmental impact. :roll:

damn, settle down there sharpender - if you READ my post, you'd clearly see that I'm personally against unnecessary bolting, and I prefer the trad style for all the right reasons. But I also don't get my undies in a bunch because people have their opinions on someone elses actions. Would I be annoyed by bolts on an "easy" climb, totally! Take your flame and put it in your fireplace.. The only thing you quoted me was on my little sentense of bolting an x rated route.. I have always understood it was ok to bolt downright dangerous parts of a climb - thsu the term MIXED climbing??

I love how ppl bring up environmental impact when it comes to bolting. If you want to whine about it, then why drive your car to the crag?? :roll: I can promise that ONE drive to the crag does more environmental impact than someone sinking a bolt into a rock - albeit, the rock stays that way - I'm just giving a little juice for the flame :-)

And please don't insult my love of climbing by tellin me to go play some weenie game like golf..


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Oct 23, 2003, 7:18 AM
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[quote:212ecefc1b="corpse"]I have always understood it was ok to bolt downright dangerous parts of a climb - thsu the term MIXED climbing?[/quote:212ecefc1b]

actually, corpse, this is incorrect. a climb is the first ascentionists' expression cast in stone. if a high-standard climber puts up a bold line with sparsely protected and runout sections, it is not your right to -- as someone put it earlier -- [i:212ecefc1b]dumb down [/i:212ecefc1b]the climb just because you don't have the guts or ability to lead it in the original style. (of course, i'm not taking a shot at [i:212ecefc1b]your[/i:212ecefc1b] climbing ability or ethics; just making a point :wink: )

insofar as the term [i:212ecefc1b]mixed[/i:212ecefc1b] to describe a rock climb, it is a byproduct of sport climbing. a bolt on a trad climb is no big deal -- you clip it and go. but coming upon a section on a sport route where you need a couple of rp's and all you have is a dozen or so draws can leave you in a dire situation.

it is never okay to add a bolt to what you, or anyone else, might consider "downright dangerous". for one, ask a 5.13 climber and one who climbs 5.6 to define "dangerous", and you'll see it's all a matter of perception. it has been mentioned that there is enough rock out there to go around. if this is true, then please consider that not every route has to be made "safe", "enjoyable", or even "accessible" to every climber. we need to quit this [i:212ecefc1b]disneyland[/i:212ecefc1b] thinking that says it's a themepark out here and grammy and the kids should be able to come along on every outing.

following this line of thinking, i imagine i would be well within my rights to make some serious alterations to most of the impressionist paintings i've seen hanging in museums. fortunately for those of you who enjoy seeing paintings of some guy with both ears on one side of his head, no one has sworn me into the art police.


corpse


Oct 23, 2003, 3:33 PM
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mtngeo - thanks for a normal response - and no offense taken.. There are plenty of ppl that can climb circles around me. It all makes sense to me.. If I did a FA, I could see myself gettin pissed if someone altered it to their level..


xcire


Oct 23, 2003, 4:56 PM
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Thank you all for you info. From what i read i kinda get it. I thought that the bolts impeded a trad climber. I didnt see the big deal in my eyes you could just place your trad next to the bolt and your on the way. The whole point of this thread was to find out if it was a physical problem or just something else. I thought that trad climbers just didnt want to be seen as climbing a route that was bolted. I now know that having a bolted route to fall back on takes away from the "idea" of trad climbing. I am also sure that as I progress through climbing I will continue to learn and start to see things from a different perspective. I thank you all for your time and apologize that im not a road scholar when it come to english and grammer.


tanner


Oct 23, 2003, 5:06 PM
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One of the things I enjoy about climbing is its not all on a silver platter. Some climbs I have to work for some scare the crap out of me and some I will never climb. There are safe comfortable climbs, scary safe climbs and stupid climbs. I think there has to be all of these in order to have climbing. There is always options and always climbs to dream about.... If I could just get past that runout or find a way to protect a pumpy section.
Bolting has its place. In a beginner road side area, TR bolts and bolt to protect unreasonable runout are a good idea. So are rap routes.

I think not bolting some some climbs every time there is a run out keeps people that shouldn't be on the climb off. Its safer that way. I you can't handle Xfeet of 5.6 runout on a long 5.9 route maybe your not ready for tthat climb.


robmcc


Oct 23, 2003, 5:40 PM
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In reply to:
Where my question is what about us who can not set trad yet I would like that bolt next to a crack so i can climb it also. Is this wrong?

Gotta be a troll. Want to climb a trad line? Second. Top rope. Nobody says you can't climb it, you jsut can't unnecessarily mangle the line for those who can.

Yes, ABSOLUTELY the experience of climbing a trad line would be largely ruined for me if some weenie bolted it.


pixelguru


Oct 23, 2003, 6:57 PM
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At Rocks State Park in MD (my closest crag), there is a freestanding pillar that has two bolts on top, but none going up - it's trad only. The easiest line is only 5.4 with good placements... If it had a line of bolts, it would be a boring sport climb, but since it doesn't, it's a fun beginner trad lead.

There's something about sitting on top of the pillar, knowing that you had no help at all getting there - that you HAD to place gear. It wouldn't be the same if there was a line of bolts going up to clip to... After my first time up there is when I first truly understood why trad climbers don't like to just place gear next to bolt hangers.

I find the whole bolting debate quite interesting. It's sort of similar to the paradox mountain bikers face with trail building & maintenance. If you do nothing, trails wash out and become impassable by all but really skilled bikers. If you build a trail so groomed that anyone can ride it and it will last forever, all the gnarly fun will be gone. Which log to you leave as an obstacle and which do you chainsaw out? What ditches do you build bridges over, and which do you make riders slog through?

It's a tough problem, and often the answer depends on who your target user is... There are certain trails we like to keep well groomed for beginners, and some we leave rougher and more technical to challenge stronger riders. I suppose that this is what happens in climbing areas too, and I don't think it's a bad solution.

X rated climbs still perplex me though... I know there's an even bigger sense of accomplishment about climbing something that has ZERO margin for error, but by not bolting it you are basically saying "you must be prepared to die if you want to climb this route". I would think that this would limit the route's use to too small of a percentage of climbers to be practical, but it's not my land or my route.

There's no such thing as an X-rated mountain bike trail. It would be an instant liability issue to the landowner. The crazy North Shore riders who build narrow bridges and bike obstacles high off the ground may have achieved an "R" rating. Even the pro-downhill chutes have pads on the trees and avalanche fences... and these guys and gals wear serious body armor and full-face helmets. There are injuries, but deaths are very rare...

Maybe someday if I send an X-rated route, I'll understand why it wasn't bolted. I just wish I didn't have to put my life on the line to gain enlightenment.

Sorry for the long thread... I'm sitting on the couch breaking in a new pair of shoes!


sharpender


Oct 23, 2003, 7:06 PM
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Johnnord wrote:
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Capitalize "English.' "Your" should be you're. "A world I presume you are entering." is a fragment. "Edit your questions before you post them (comma) and use spell check."
Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Ahhh, it worked. Actually though, a comma is not called for with and, but comma's could have been used with "I presume". And, (this is grammatically incorrect) "is a fragment." is a fragment. Thanks for noticing. Sorry, I couldn't resist. 8)


robmcc


Oct 23, 2003, 7:17 PM
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In reply to:
comma's

Pet peeve.

Get thee to a trollery.


orangekyak


Oct 23, 2003, 7:25 PM
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while we're on this ...
"im not a road scholar when it come to englih and grammer"
has some fun ones if you're really picky.

Do you have to know maps really well to be a road scholar?


crow


Oct 23, 2003, 7:25 PM
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Trad is just the natural way. You see a rock, climb it. Then you move on. Just like backpacking we as climbers nee to use the L.N.T. (leave no trace) method when enjoying th outdoors. Do we really want to make little roads (Bolts) for ourselves to scramble over on something that has been here for thousands and even millions of years before us?


johnnord


Oct 23, 2003, 10:25 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
comma's

Pet peeve.

Get thee to a trollery.

uugg! You got me. I hate that, too! How humiliating!

Regarding the comma with "and." When the conjunction ("and") connnects two independent clauses a comma is required.

Regarding the "I presume" sentence: I really didn't know how to punctuate that, because I was quoting your sentence and included the period. Oh, well. :wink:

So this is like a -T3?

There just don't seem to be very many other interesting threads going on right now.

I think we'd all rather be climbing! :cry:


robmcc


Oct 23, 2003, 10:39 PM
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There just don't seem to be very many other interesting threads going on right now.

Oh, I don't know, I kinda liked the one where it was suggested I should take a hot climber chick, presumably for some post climb...ahh...well, you figure it out. The wifey was not amused, mostly because I found it so amusing, I think. :wink:

Or maybe it was because I said it was a fantastic idea. Either way, I had to go kick the furnace on. Got kinda chilly in here. :lol:


sbclimber


Oct 23, 2003, 10:41 PM
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Re: A question for all trad climbers [In reply to]
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Where my question is what about us who can not set trad yet I would like that bolt next to a crack so i can climb it also. Is this wrong?

This seems to be about the same as chipping the rock. Instead of chipping holds to lower the climb to your level, you should practice until you can do the climb.

Same w/ the cracks. If you cant lead them, TR them or practice something easier until you can lead them, dont go bolting away for immediate results. Take the time to learn the trad pro if that is the style of climbing you would like to do, which seems to be the case.


dlintz


Oct 23, 2003, 10:50 PM
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Re: A question for all trad climbers [In reply to]
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Since we've started using the T-scale to grade trolls, how about a G-scale for posts with exceptionally poor grammar? :lol:

Somebody start with my post. Is my comma use okay?


boltdude


Oct 24, 2003, 12:16 AM
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Re: A question for all trad climbers [In reply to]
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xcire, aside from all the traditional ethics debates, and the fact that if you add bolts to existing crack routes they'll probably get chopped, there is a very good physical reason not to bolt cracks:

Bolts get in the way of smears, wedging, and various climbing techniques that are commonly used on crack climbs but relatively infrequently on sport climbs. Imagine a bolt hanger sticking out from a wall, then trying to press the side of your leg or your back into it. Not fun.

An easy example is a lieback dihedral (crack in a corner, let's say a 90-degree corner for the sake of the example). If you're leading it on trad gear, you place pro in the crack (a very pumpy proposition on true lieback cracks), then lieback quickly up the crack while smearing your shoulder, back, butt, and legs on the side of the dihedral and your feet near your hands. If you bolt the crack, where do you put the bolts? The most logical is on the side that you're liebacking, since it's easy to reach the bolts. But then, the bolts are in the way of your body. If you bolt on the other side of the dihedral, you can't reach the bolts to clip without falling off. If you try to bolt behind you, same deal.

Likewise, on pure jam cracks you often smear your feet outside the crack (especially finger cracks), or lieback a few moves, and the bolts will likely get in the way, especially since people with different hand size and body size will often climb a crack completely differently from each other.

But the ethical reasons are good enough in themselves - the challenges of traditional climbing are greatly reduced, and the character altered, when there is a line of bolts to clip or follow.


mheyman


Oct 24, 2003, 4:45 AM
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Re: A question for all trad climbers [In reply to]
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Most importantly is that if you can't place a piece of gear safely, then what makes you think you can place a bolt safely? I'd rather you didn't place that bolt if you are unsure. Someone might mistakenly trust it one day.

Oh, you weren't going to bolt it on lead? Then the problem is simply that you should be doing easier routes. Best bet would be to climb routes others have bolted!


cthcrockclimber


Oct 24, 2003, 5:24 AM
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Re: A question for all trad climbers [In reply to]
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Since we've started using the T-scale to grade trolls, how about a G-scale for posts with exceptionally poor grammar? :lol:

Somebody start with my post. Is my comma use okay?

NO! the comma use is not ok, you need to have two independent clauses.


markc


Oct 24, 2003, 7:22 AM
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Re: A question for all trad climbers [In reply to]
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Here are some comments I made about a similar topic elsewhere:

I've heard a lot of folks here say that retrobolting shouldn't have any impact on the route. "If you don't like it, don't clip it." Things to that effect. I'm a gumby compared to most folks here, but I have respect for those who came before me.

I live in Pittsburgh, which has some great old architecture. Near the intersection of 5th and Shady there was a pair of stone mansions. One was purchased and renovated a few years back. In the process, the new owners ripped the soul from the house, tacked on modern additions, and left just enough of the old facade to remind you of the house's former beauty. It would have been better to just go to bare earth and start over.

How's that relate to climbing? Bolting an established route is modifying an old house. These routes and houses are a tangible link to our past, that can be experienced by current and future generations as long as they are preserved. If you remodel all the old houses, if you retrobolt all the old routes put up in bold style, you're doing a disservice to the community. While there are plenty of old houses and routes, should we sit idly by while more and more are modernized? If the day comes when I just bring quickdraws to Seneca, or when every house looks like it was built last week, won't something be irretrievably lost? Sure, I can sit down and show my nephew pictures of old houses, or how a route existed originally. I'd rather be able to show him in person.

2Ę,

mark


pixelguru


Oct 24, 2003, 7:27 AM
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Re: A question for all trad climbers [In reply to]
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so now we're going to have posts rated T-2/G-5???

What about a flame scale too? F-9

I can see this getting very complicated very quickly.


johnnord


Oct 24, 2003, 8:31 PM
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Re: A question for all trad climbers [In reply to]
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Very Cool! A new T/G/F scale. It will give us all something to do when we are not climbing!


orangekyak


Oct 25, 2003, 6:16 PM
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Re: A question for all trad climbers [In reply to]
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Since we've started using the T-scale to grade trolls, how about a G-scale for posts with exceptionally poor grammar? :lol:

Somebody start with my post. Is my comma use okay?

NO! the comma use is not ok, you need to have two independent clauses.

Um ... "Hey Pot!" ... "Yes, Kettle?" ... "Dude, you're black." ... "No, I'm not. Look again."


shnobe


Oct 25, 2003, 9:04 PM
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Re: A question for all trad climbers [In reply to]
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When I first started climbing I was handed two beat-up old books that today I think every new climber should read, whether you climb trad or sport the ethics and values chapters will help you understand why people climb trad and why you shouldn't bolt routes that do not need to be bolted.
Anyways, the books are Basic Rockcraft and Advanced Rockcraft by Royal Robbins. they're kind of hard to find but well worth it.


Forums : Climbing Disciplines : Trad Climbing

 


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