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xcire


Oct 22, 2003, 8:05 PM
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xcire You can't even write a coherent sentence. Perhaps you should be in Uranus. You don't have the judgement to decide to bolt a crack/trad climb. It is this simple. It does not need to be bolted. It can be climbed just fine without bolts. Hey here's a thought. Have Nascar put in rails below the pavement, so noobs and boneheads can drive 195 mph in a race just like the big boys. Those slot car tracks will make it possible for them and safe for everybody. Geez. Again. :roll:

This would fall under the "jack asses please dont post on my thread" category. Why would you need to start off with an insult? All I am trying to do is learn. I just wanted to know if the bolt along a route would imped a trad climb in any other way than a respect issue. I hope you dont reproduce god know what you would say to a child that asked a question. Im not perfect and dont claim to be, ever thought of maybe just helping someone with a little advice, much more helpful than insults


soma


Oct 22, 2003, 8:06 PM
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Thats what my question is if a routes bolted cant you still climb it using trad. And to the do it like it was done in the beggining i dont see anyone ridding a horse to work. Humans improve things times change and no this is not a troll just wanted to see if there was a physical reason or if it was just a respect for fist ascents. I have no plans of bolting anything just trying to learn.

Sport routes are usually ("traditionally") unprotectable. Have you ever climbed a thin line? Try placing a peice of gear that will support you in the event of a fall on a crimp. It will not happen. This brings up the general (and far from perfect) generalization that crack climbs can be traditionally protected (with cams), while difficult face climbing can not.

Dave


johnnord


Oct 22, 2003, 8:09 PM
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Maybe this will help. Think of a climb as someone's creation, a work of art if you will. The idea is that everyone who climbs the creation should do it the way the creator did it. Few of us would walk into a museum and start altering the paintings on the wall. We accept the creation as it is. Same way with a climb? It's not an ethic, it's an aesthetic.


xcire


Oct 22, 2003, 8:14 PM
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Maybe this will help. Think of a climb as someone's creation, a work of art if you will. The idea is that everyone who climbs the creation should do it the way the creator did it. Few of us would walk into a museum and start altering the paintings on the wall. We accept the creation as it is. Same way with a climb? It's not an ethic, it's an aesthetic.

This is what i was looking for THANK YOU VERY MUCH


bones


Oct 22, 2003, 8:21 PM
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xcire, is there any reason I shouldn't put up a via ferrata on your favorite bolted route? I mean, you could still climb it without using the iron pegs right?
The "you don't have to clip the bolt" argument has been discussed to death and most climbers, both sport and trad, agree that it's not okay to bolt next to gear placements in most situations.

Once you start trad climbing, you will understand. It just makes you feel good to climb a route in the least invasive style.


davidji


Oct 22, 2003, 8:36 PM
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The only time I feel it is ok to bolt beside a crack is when the area a known sport crag. Most of the climbing community in that area do not bring trad gear to climb at that crag.
Yup, there are a few places in the USA where it's accepted (e.g. Owen's River Gorge), and I think some places in Europe as well. Bolted cracks can be pretty fun to climb, but leave 'em in the sport climbing areas. Or where the crack won't hold pro. Or the Valley :wink: (ever seen the cover of Yosemite Free Climbs, 2nd edition, Falcon Press?).


alpnclmbr1


Oct 22, 2003, 8:43 PM
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Thats what my question is if a routes bolted cant you still climb it using trad. And to the do it like it was done in the beggining i dont see anyone ridding a horse to work. Humans improve things times change and no this is not a troll just wanted to see if there was a physical reason or if it was just a respect for fist ascents. I have no plans of bolting anything just trying to learn.

I guess I will try,

So climbing started with traditional methods. Then the use of bolts became accepted in a limited manner in aid climbing. Then free climbers realized that bolts made possible new styles and types of climbing. Then the wars started over what was the appropriate use of bolts. This wasnít a war between trad and sport because that division hadnít formed yet. Climberís came to the compromise that bolts were only to be used where there was no other option.

Now comes the new age gumbie that knows nothing about the history and traditions of climbing, and he says why canít I climb a crack with bolts?
There are two reasons,

1) anyone with the equipment and skill necessary to place bolts also has the trad gear and knowledge to climb the crack with gear which would be easier then bolting it anyway.

2) due to the original compromise he knows that someone would chop the bolts anyway.

As far as why you canít trad climb a bolted crack. It is because if you got scared on lead you know in the back of your mind that all you have to do is clip that shiny bolt sitting there to be safe. This totally ruins the whole point of trad which is all about relying on your own abilities and skills to keep yourself safe.


squish


Oct 22, 2003, 8:50 PM
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Thats what my question is if a routes bolted cant you still climb it using trad.

Short answer, no, you can't.

By adding bolts, you take away from the experience.

You sound as though you've never explored any challenges in climbing beyond the physical movement. If you don't have any experience in this area, you'll have a hard time understanding the answer to your question.

Were you to add bolts to a route and then decide to climb it in traditional style, what do you think would happen?

"I'm not sure which way to go."
(Oh, there's the next one.) CLIP.

"I can't get adequate protection. Should I continue or back off?"
(Hmm. I think I'll just use this one.) CLIP.

"I'm scared."
CLIP.

"I'm pumped."
CLIP. (Take!)

etc. etc...

It's OK if you don't have the sense of adventure that some other climbers seem to have. You can continue being happy clipping bolts and never stray from your comfort zone, but to take the adventure away from others through your own selfish ignorance is plain wrong.


roc_klimber


Oct 22, 2003, 8:51 PM
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Trad is pure climbing. bolts take away from the pureness of trad. i say if you cant climb it yourself then dont be greedy and modify the route to your specific tasts. leave it so someone else can get the fa or whatever. in short: DONT BE GREEDY.


soccer_fan


Oct 22, 2003, 9:09 PM
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The artwork analogy is good - whoever the FA of a route is figured out how to get up that particular line of rock, and out of respect for that route it should stay as put up (either natural pro or bolted). Someone mentioned its hard to protect most face climbs so those aren't for trad, while most cracks are typically trad routes, just the nature of the beast.


flagstaff_climber


Oct 22, 2003, 9:09 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Why should climbs be altered just so you, or anybody else can climb them ? If you want to climb crack then learn trad.

And if you wanna learn some trad drop me a pm I would be happy to let you second on some crack climbs, it is a great way to learn.

Rick

hey flagstaff_climber, how's the weather over there at the Forks these days? Any chance you wanna meet up with a Las Vegan and show off some routes? I seen those pics of you sending that sh*t!!


The weather is great here right now, PM me if you would like to come down.

Rick


bustinmins


Oct 22, 2003, 9:45 PM
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Where my question is what about us who can not set trad yet I would like that bolt next to a crack so i can climb it also. Is this wrong?

While I can see your point - just wanting to climb the classics without having to learn, purchase and place pro - I can also see an argument for increased safety as well. HOWEVER - these routes were never meant to be bolted and here is why.

Think about this:

What if we could go an alter/edit Shakespeare's body of work. Sounds nuts(no pun intended) doesn't it. Why would you do that? You wouldn't - why? because it is a classic. It was written that way, in that time, to be enjoyed in the way it was written. Well classic trad climbs are the same as Shakespeare. If you bolt the classics for all to play on them, then you'll lose the spirit and the adventure that exists presently with those individual climbs. For instance, in Eldorado Canyon, there is a route called Genesis. This route was the hardest route in Eldo until around 1984. This route sports a 25 foot runout(50 foot fall possible) on a mid-grade 5.11(?) route. The route was first led free(trad climbing) by a Boulder resident who had to prepare for this climb while he attended college. He also was the first man to have free soloed The Naked Edge circa 1978. If you were to bolt that 25 foot section of the route, you'd certainly be making it safer but in doing so you'd take away the challenge and the focus of anyone that would choose to repeat this young man's accomplishment. Does this make sense to you? Additionally, in Eldo, there is a route named "Perilous Journey". The route was originally led with rope and pro. However, once the lead got up the 5.11(a-d?) route - he discovered that the jugs that he thought existed(due to analysis of shadows) didn't exist at all. In fact, the route has no place to place any pro for a significant portion of the first 80 feet. Thus, when he climbed it - he realized his predicament. He couldn't down climb safely, thus he had to keep chugging up this route(gracefully) and eventually get to a point where he could place some pro. When he finally made it to the refuge point, he named the route Perilous Journey. Since that day, this route has been dubbed "The Eldo No-Pro Classic". Most people who have climbed this since that day don't bother taking a rope or gear. Not to say that is safer by any means, but they climb it with the expectation of experiencing what the first man did. They want to know what it feels like to feel the union between the climber and the rock. To bolt this route would totally destroy its essence(no matter how much safer it would be).

I hope that I'm not preaching to the choir here but in the sacred trad areas - please don't bolt our routes. No only is it bad for the rock - it removes the original experience from the route and disgraces the route layer's accomplishment.

Peace,

James


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Oct 22, 2003, 10:03 PM
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i, too, like the "art" analogy. and i really like alpnclmbr1's post.

a big problem i have with many of today's young climbers is this: they want something for nothing; to climb hard lines without paying their dues. if we were all to subscribe to that thinking, why not just go ahead and turn every climb (both established and [i:20aaecc501]soon to be established[/i:20aaecc501]) into a cable route complete with spray-painted directions and chiseled holds where needed?

whether you trad, aid, sport, gym climb or boulder, you owe it to yourself, to those who came before you, and to our [i:20aaecc501]sport[/i:20aaecc501] to learn its rich, colorful, and oftentimes tumultuous history.

it is your choice. you can be a [i:20aaecc501]climber[/i:20aaecc501] ... or simply someone who climbs.


bustinmins


Oct 22, 2003, 10:16 PM
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I would have to agree with another reply you received:

If you climb a route that has never been climbed before and you are leading the charge up the route. If, after all of your work, you want to bolt sections of it - then do so - just leave the classics and the classic trad climbing areas alone - this is for your safety as well as the safety of the rock.

I can guarantee you that if anyone began bolting any classic route in Eldorado Canyon, that person would be popped with a snipers bullet fired from a Viet Nam era sniper rifle in the hands of a Boulder Trad Hippie. The witnesses would all say one of two things - (1) I didn't see anything officer, I was eating a Clif Bar(tm). or (2) I saw him right over there - he was on the ledge. However, he was brandishing a deadly weapon and we were all in fear of our lives. The D.A. would never bring charges and the rock would remain pristine(and the placed bolts removed).

:) Have a great week! Thanks for posting something for us all to share.

Peace,

JD


aussiedean


Oct 22, 2003, 10:43 PM
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I climb trad and know that nothing is wrong with a good bolt placement. After all its in the rock to protect you.

Always try to cause minimal impact when entering the area but impact happens everyday wether we like it or not.

Dont worry a
Thinking of climbing all the time is a good thing aswell.


sharpender


Oct 22, 2003, 10:45 PM
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xcire wrote:
In reply to:
I hope you dont reproduce god know what you would say to a child that asked a question.

This is what I meant. That is a run on sentence. Go climb that way. Run out. It works in climbing, but not in sentences. I am just frustrated with the quality of your sentence structure, spelling, paragraph/thought structure. I forget who quoted your sentence, a question that could not be answered because it was incoherent. Work on the coherence. Perhaps you are in high school. If, so, and god forbid if your beyond it already, work on your english classes.

As to your concern about my reproducing, your in luck. It is impossible for me to reproduce. You don't want to know, but it may wait in your future. Unfortunately for you that came to late. I already have a grandchild. In truth I have answered many questions for many children. Small children love me. I listen and communicate at their level. This place is full of adults. A world I presume you are entering. You need to now learn to communicate in writing at an adult level. Edit your questions before you post them and use spell check.

I have followed this thread and it seems your learning here. Listen to these guys/gals. They know what they are talking about. 8)


dynoguy


Oct 22, 2003, 10:54 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I just want to know what makes people think they have the right to keep someone from bolting a route. Just cause it was first done by someone (in my mind) doesnt give them anymore say than anyone else. Not to take anything away from them but there is alot of rock out there whats the big deal. Im not trying to start anything I just want to know if there is a real reason other than the whole trad mentality that they have the right to keep stuff from being bolted, keep in mind i do plan to climb trad one day

How about this then.. You go find your own crack. FA and bolt it.

I have only lead extreamly easy trad, which I could have soloed but I respect the tradition underlying trad routes and more so the balls (or the female equivalent) that is required for leading difficult trad routes.

I keep thinking your posts are trolls and if so, well done.

How will you "climb trad one day" if all the trad routes are bolted?

Dave

I agree cracks shouldn't be bolted if it is possible to trad them. But seriously while can't you lead a bolted climb on trad? Besides making it easier to follow the route.
Just doesn't make sense :roll:


ebelay


Oct 22, 2003, 10:58 PM
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Spellcheck won't catch "your" when it should be "you're" but it will catch "thier" when it should be "their".

Live up to your own rules.

Eric


watersprite


Oct 23, 2003, 2:31 AM
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...Humans improve things times change and no this is not a troll just wanted to see if there was a physical reason or if it was just a respect for fist ascents. I have no plans of bolting anything just trying to learn.


I have a great deal of respect for fist ascents!


desertclimber


Oct 23, 2003, 4:44 AM
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Adapt yourself to the route as it is- bolts or trad. Don't change the route to suit your particular desires.

I feel that when a route exists, following parties need to learn the skills needed to make the ascent, whatever the style.

To exaggerate my point- "Well, the first ascent was done ground up, on aid, placing bolts to make it a sport climb, but I think I'll build a tramway to the top, since I want to. Then, anybody can enjoy it, even if they don't posses the skills to clip bolts."


crag


Oct 23, 2003, 5:04 AM
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Never DUMB down the rock for your own lack of abilities.


johnnord


Oct 23, 2003, 6:05 AM
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In reply to:
xcire wrote:
In reply to:
I hope you dont reproduce god know what you would say to a child that asked a question.

This is what I meant. That is a run on sentence. Go climb that way. Run out. It works in climbing, but not in sentences. I am just frustrated with the quality of your sentence structure, spelling, paragraph/thought structure. I forget who quoted your sentence, a question that could not be answered because it was incoherent. Work on the coherence. Perhaps you are in high school. If, so, and god forbid if your beyond it already, work on your english classes.

As to your concern about my reproducing, your in luck. It is impossible for me to reproduce. You don't want to know, but it may wait in your future. Unfortunately for you that came to late. I already have a grandchild. In truth I have answered many questions for many children.

Small children love me. I listen and communicate at their level. This place is full of adults. A world I presume you are entering. You need to now learn to communicate in writing at an adult level. Edit your questions before you post them and use spell check.

I have followed this thread and it seems your learning here. Listen to these guys/gals. They know what they are talking about. 8)

Capitalize "English.' "Your" should be you're. "A world I presume you are entering." is a fragment. "Edit your questions before you post them (comma) and use spell check."
Sorry, I couldn't resist. :wink:


corpse


Oct 23, 2003, 6:14 AM
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In reply to:
Adrenline Junkie Wrote:
In reply to:
If you can bolt an x rated 10a trad climb cuz the protection really stink, then put bolts in a few places to make it safe.

Leave your hands off. Geez. From the rest of your post you need to grow up. Perhaps go back to school. Study, anthorpology, economics, environmentalism and just plain pay attention to the real world. By your post, Yosemite Valley is going to be elbow to earlobe with 100 story condos. If you can't learn to climb it the way the first ascent team did - and with todays gear yet - stay in the gym, or go play golf. Now there's environmental impact. :roll:

damn, settle down there sharpender - if you READ my post, you'd clearly see that I'm personally against unnecessary bolting, and I prefer the trad style for all the right reasons. But I also don't get my undies in a bunch because people have their opinions on someone elses actions. Would I be annoyed by bolts on an "easy" climb, totally! Take your flame and put it in your fireplace.. The only thing you quoted me was on my little sentense of bolting an x rated route.. I have always understood it was ok to bolt downright dangerous parts of a climb - thsu the term MIXED climbing??

I love how ppl bring up environmental impact when it comes to bolting. If you want to whine about it, then why drive your car to the crag?? :roll: I can promise that ONE drive to the crag does more environmental impact than someone sinking a bolt into a rock - albeit, the rock stays that way - I'm just giving a little juice for the flame :-)

And please don't insult my love of climbing by tellin me to go play some weenie game like golf..


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Oct 23, 2003, 7:18 AM
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[quote:212ecefc1b="corpse"]I have always understood it was ok to bolt downright dangerous parts of a climb - thsu the term MIXED climbing?[/quote:212ecefc1b]

actually, corpse, this is incorrect. a climb is the first ascentionists' expression cast in stone. if a high-standard climber puts up a bold line with sparsely protected and runout sections, it is not your right to -- as someone put it earlier -- [i:212ecefc1b]dumb down [/i:212ecefc1b]the climb just because you don't have the guts or ability to lead it in the original style. (of course, i'm not taking a shot at [i:212ecefc1b]your[/i:212ecefc1b] climbing ability or ethics; just making a point :wink: )

insofar as the term [i:212ecefc1b]mixed[/i:212ecefc1b] to describe a rock climb, it is a byproduct of sport climbing. a bolt on a trad climb is no big deal -- you clip it and go. but coming upon a section on a sport route where you need a couple of rp's and all you have is a dozen or so draws can leave you in a dire situation.

it is never okay to add a bolt to what you, or anyone else, might consider "downright dangerous". for one, ask a 5.13 climber and one who climbs 5.6 to define "dangerous", and you'll see it's all a matter of perception. it has been mentioned that there is enough rock out there to go around. if this is true, then please consider that not every route has to be made "safe", "enjoyable", or even "accessible" to every climber. we need to quit this [i:212ecefc1b]disneyland[/i:212ecefc1b] thinking that says it's a themepark out here and grammy and the kids should be able to come along on every outing.

following this line of thinking, i imagine i would be well within my rights to make some serious alterations to most of the impressionist paintings i've seen hanging in museums. fortunately for those of you who enjoy seeing paintings of some guy with both ears on one side of his head, no one has sworn me into the art police.


corpse


Oct 23, 2003, 3:33 PM
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mtngeo - thanks for a normal response - and no offense taken.. There are plenty of ppl that can climb circles around me. It all makes sense to me.. If I did a FA, I could see myself gettin pissed if someone altered it to their level..

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