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A question for all trad climbers
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xcire


Oct 23, 2003, 4:56 PM
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Thank you all for you info. From what i read i kinda get it. I thought that the bolts impeded a trad climber. I didnt see the big deal in my eyes you could just place your trad next to the bolt and your on the way. The whole point of this thread was to find out if it was a physical problem or just something else. I thought that trad climbers just didnt want to be seen as climbing a route that was bolted. I now know that having a bolted route to fall back on takes away from the "idea" of trad climbing. I am also sure that as I progress through climbing I will continue to learn and start to see things from a different perspective. I thank you all for your time and apologize that im not a road scholar when it come to english and grammer.


tanner


Oct 23, 2003, 5:06 PM
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One of the things I enjoy about climbing is its not all on a silver platter. Some climbs I have to work for some scare the crap out of me and some I will never climb. There are safe comfortable climbs, scary safe climbs and stupid climbs. I think there has to be all of these in order to have climbing. There is always options and always climbs to dream about.... If I could just get past that runout or find a way to protect a pumpy section.
Bolting has its place. In a beginner road side area, TR bolts and bolt to protect unreasonable runout are a good idea. So are rap routes.

I think not bolting some some climbs every time there is a run out keeps people that shouldn't be on the climb off. Its safer that way. I you can't handle Xfeet of 5.6 runout on a long 5.9 route maybe your not ready for tthat climb.


robmcc


Oct 23, 2003, 5:40 PM
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In reply to:
Where my question is what about us who can not set trad yet I would like that bolt next to a crack so i can climb it also. Is this wrong?

Gotta be a troll. Want to climb a trad line? Second. Top rope. Nobody says you can't climb it, you jsut can't unnecessarily mangle the line for those who can.

Yes, ABSOLUTELY the experience of climbing a trad line would be largely ruined for me if some weenie bolted it.


pixelguru


Oct 23, 2003, 6:57 PM
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At Rocks State Park in MD (my closest crag), there is a freestanding pillar that has two bolts on top, but none going up - it's trad only. The easiest line is only 5.4 with good placements... If it had a line of bolts, it would be a boring sport climb, but since it doesn't, it's a fun beginner trad lead.

There's something about sitting on top of the pillar, knowing that you had no help at all getting there - that you HAD to place gear. It wouldn't be the same if there was a line of bolts going up to clip to... After my first time up there is when I first truly understood why trad climbers don't like to just place gear next to bolt hangers.

I find the whole bolting debate quite interesting. It's sort of similar to the paradox mountain bikers face with trail building & maintenance. If you do nothing, trails wash out and become impassable by all but really skilled bikers. If you build a trail so groomed that anyone can ride it and it will last forever, all the gnarly fun will be gone. Which log to you leave as an obstacle and which do you chainsaw out? What ditches do you build bridges over, and which do you make riders slog through?

It's a tough problem, and often the answer depends on who your target user is... There are certain trails we like to keep well groomed for beginners, and some we leave rougher and more technical to challenge stronger riders. I suppose that this is what happens in climbing areas too, and I don't think it's a bad solution.

X rated climbs still perplex me though... I know there's an even bigger sense of accomplishment about climbing something that has ZERO margin for error, but by not bolting it you are basically saying "you must be prepared to die if you want to climb this route". I would think that this would limit the route's use to too small of a percentage of climbers to be practical, but it's not my land or my route.

There's no such thing as an X-rated mountain bike trail. It would be an instant liability issue to the landowner. The crazy North Shore riders who build narrow bridges and bike obstacles high off the ground may have achieved an "R" rating. Even the pro-downhill chutes have pads on the trees and avalanche fences... and these guys and gals wear serious body armor and full-face helmets. There are injuries, but deaths are very rare...

Maybe someday if I send an X-rated route, I'll understand why it wasn't bolted. I just wish I didn't have to put my life on the line to gain enlightenment.

Sorry for the long thread... I'm sitting on the couch breaking in a new pair of shoes!


sharpender


Oct 23, 2003, 7:06 PM
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Johnnord wrote:
In reply to:
Capitalize "English.' "Your" should be you're. "A world I presume you are entering." is a fragment. "Edit your questions before you post them (comma) and use spell check."
Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Ahhh, it worked. Actually though, a comma is not called for with and, but comma's could have been used with "I presume". And, (this is grammatically incorrect) "is a fragment." is a fragment. Thanks for noticing. Sorry, I couldn't resist. 8)


robmcc


Oct 23, 2003, 7:17 PM
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In reply to:
comma's

Pet peeve.

Get thee to a trollery.


orangekyak


Oct 23, 2003, 7:25 PM
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while we're on this ...
"im not a road scholar when it come to englih and grammer"
has some fun ones if you're really picky.

Do you have to know maps really well to be a road scholar?


crow


Oct 23, 2003, 7:25 PM
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Trad is just the natural way. You see a rock, climb it. Then you move on. Just like backpacking we as climbers nee to use the L.N.T. (leave no trace) method when enjoying th outdoors. Do we really want to make little roads (Bolts) for ourselves to scramble over on something that has been here for thousands and even millions of years before us?


johnnord


Oct 23, 2003, 10:25 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
comma's

Pet peeve.

Get thee to a trollery.

uugg! You got me. I hate that, too! How humiliating!

Regarding the comma with "and." When the conjunction ("and") connnects two independent clauses a comma is required.

Regarding the "I presume" sentence: I really didn't know how to punctuate that, because I was quoting your sentence and included the period. Oh, well. :wink:

So this is like a -T3?

There just don't seem to be very many other interesting threads going on right now.

I think we'd all rather be climbing! :cry:


robmcc


Oct 23, 2003, 10:39 PM
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In reply to:
There just don't seem to be very many other interesting threads going on right now.

Oh, I don't know, I kinda liked the one where it was suggested I should take a hot climber chick, presumably for some post climb...ahh...well, you figure it out. The wifey was not amused, mostly because I found it so amusing, I think. :wink:

Or maybe it was because I said it was a fantastic idea. Either way, I had to go kick the furnace on. Got kinda chilly in here. :lol:


sbclimber


Oct 23, 2003, 10:41 PM
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In reply to:
Where my question is what about us who can not set trad yet I would like that bolt next to a crack so i can climb it also. Is this wrong?

This seems to be about the same as chipping the rock. Instead of chipping holds to lower the climb to your level, you should practice until you can do the climb.

Same w/ the cracks. If you cant lead them, TR them or practice something easier until you can lead them, dont go bolting away for immediate results. Take the time to learn the trad pro if that is the style of climbing you would like to do, which seems to be the case.


dlintz


Oct 23, 2003, 10:50 PM
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Since we've started using the T-scale to grade trolls, how about a G-scale for posts with exceptionally poor grammar? :lol:

Somebody start with my post. Is my comma use okay?


boltdude


Oct 24, 2003, 12:16 AM
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xcire, aside from all the traditional ethics debates, and the fact that if you add bolts to existing crack routes they'll probably get chopped, there is a very good physical reason not to bolt cracks:

Bolts get in the way of smears, wedging, and various climbing techniques that are commonly used on crack climbs but relatively infrequently on sport climbs. Imagine a bolt hanger sticking out from a wall, then trying to press the side of your leg or your back into it. Not fun.

An easy example is a lieback dihedral (crack in a corner, let's say a 90-degree corner for the sake of the example). If you're leading it on trad gear, you place pro in the crack (a very pumpy proposition on true lieback cracks), then lieback quickly up the crack while smearing your shoulder, back, butt, and legs on the side of the dihedral and your feet near your hands. If you bolt the crack, where do you put the bolts? The most logical is on the side that you're liebacking, since it's easy to reach the bolts. But then, the bolts are in the way of your body. If you bolt on the other side of the dihedral, you can't reach the bolts to clip without falling off. If you try to bolt behind you, same deal.

Likewise, on pure jam cracks you often smear your feet outside the crack (especially finger cracks), or lieback a few moves, and the bolts will likely get in the way, especially since people with different hand size and body size will often climb a crack completely differently from each other.

But the ethical reasons are good enough in themselves - the challenges of traditional climbing are greatly reduced, and the character altered, when there is a line of bolts to clip or follow.


mheyman


Oct 24, 2003, 4:45 AM
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Most importantly is that if you can't place a piece of gear safely, then what makes you think you can place a bolt safely? I'd rather you didn't place that bolt if you are unsure. Someone might mistakenly trust it one day.

Oh, you weren't going to bolt it on lead? Then the problem is simply that you should be doing easier routes. Best bet would be to climb routes others have bolted!


cthcrockclimber


Oct 24, 2003, 5:24 AM
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In reply to:
Since we've started using the T-scale to grade trolls, how about a G-scale for posts with exceptionally poor grammar? :lol:

Somebody start with my post. Is my comma use okay?

NO! the comma use is not ok, you need to have two independent clauses.


markc


Oct 24, 2003, 7:22 AM
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Here are some comments I made about a similar topic elsewhere:

I've heard a lot of folks here say that retrobolting shouldn't have any impact on the route. "If you don't like it, don't clip it." Things to that effect. I'm a gumby compared to most folks here, but I have respect for those who came before me.

I live in Pittsburgh, which has some great old architecture. Near the intersection of 5th and Shady there was a pair of stone mansions. One was purchased and renovated a few years back. In the process, the new owners ripped the soul from the house, tacked on modern additions, and left just enough of the old facade to remind you of the house's former beauty. It would have been better to just go to bare earth and start over.

How's that relate to climbing? Bolting an established route is modifying an old house. These routes and houses are a tangible link to our past, that can be experienced by current and future generations as long as they are preserved. If you remodel all the old houses, if you retrobolt all the old routes put up in bold style, you're doing a disservice to the community. While there are plenty of old houses and routes, should we sit idly by while more and more are modernized? If the day comes when I just bring quickdraws to Seneca, or when every house looks like it was built last week, won't something be irretrievably lost? Sure, I can sit down and show my nephew pictures of old houses, or how a route existed originally. I'd rather be able to show him in person.

2,

mark


pixelguru


Oct 24, 2003, 7:27 AM
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so now we're going to have posts rated T-2/G-5???

What about a flame scale too? F-9

I can see this getting very complicated very quickly.


johnnord


Oct 24, 2003, 8:31 PM
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Very Cool! A new T/G/F scale. It will give us all something to do when we are not climbing!


orangekyak


Oct 25, 2003, 6:16 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Since we've started using the T-scale to grade trolls, how about a G-scale for posts with exceptionally poor grammar? :lol:

Somebody start with my post. Is my comma use okay?

NO! the comma use is not ok, you need to have two independent clauses.

Um ... "Hey Pot!" ... "Yes, Kettle?" ... "Dude, you're black." ... "No, I'm not. Look again."


shnobe


Oct 25, 2003, 9:04 PM
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When I first started climbing I was handed two beat-up old books that today I think every new climber should read, whether you climb trad or sport the ethics and values chapters will help you understand why people climb trad and why you shouldn't bolt routes that do not need to be bolted.
Anyways, the books are Basic Rockcraft and Advanced Rockcraft by Royal Robbins. they're kind of hard to find but well worth it.

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