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agavero
Dec 10, 2003, 5:04 AM
Post #26 of 38
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Follow your heart's desire. Don't worry bout the ego bull shit these tough guys are proclaiming. Have a good time. Beats the hell out of a day at the office!
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roughster
Dec 10, 2003, 6:35 AM
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roughster moved this thread from General to Regional Discussions.
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roadguy
Dec 10, 2003, 3:47 PM
Post #28 of 38
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In reply to: asandh-- What you speak is utter and total s---!! Have you ever climbed with a guide before? Certainly, the situation you describe can happen, but my experience is that it usually does not.
Is your experience on a big wall where the second almost always jugs the pitch? If not, then you are right in the sense that most clients get to climb the route, even if it is following and not leading. But when you're jugging? Well that really isn't rock climbing, is it, it's rope climbing. Albeit, you do have to know the logistics of cleaning a pitch and lowering the bag out etc. But you are not an member of the team who is expected to shoulder at least some of the leading. It would be different I guess if you free pitches while seconding, but if all you do is jug each pitch, well....
Which brings up the question of Guides. If you hire a guide in Europe, they almost always treat their clients as baggage, get em up and down safely and perpetuate them as clients for return biz, which means don't teach em anything, or just enough to get them up the route. But I have noticed over the years that American guides really go out of their way to teach their clients proper climbing techniques etc. (probably why they're always broke) But almost every guide I know who has guided El Cap does not let the client lead period. It's too slow and to dangerous unless the client has a history with the guide and they know how good the client can climb.
Which brings us back to the point of whether hiring a guide to allow you to jug El Cap constitutes climbing it, and at least for me, it doesn't. They climbed a rope strung down the side of it. Sorta like the cavers who strung ropes down the length of El Cap to practice rapping and jugging.
just my 0.03 worth
Pat
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capn_morgan
Dec 10, 2003, 5:26 PM
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Perhaps he could find an experienced partner who would be willing to take the time to climb with him and teach him in return for him bankroling the trip. I learned to lead trad on a roadtrip this spring. I had the cash to pay for gas, he had a rack and was a good climber. We spent a week driving around and climbing. We were also friends which helped. But i would imagine that It would not be too hard to find someone who would be willing to climb with a newbie and teach them in exchange for the chance to climb. Probably want to get to know em a bit first though....
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karlbaba
Dec 10, 2003, 6:29 PM
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I know YMS guides who have clients follow pitches free that are within their cabability while on big walls.
I often give partners a choice. "what balance to you want to strike between leading and freeing more pitches yourself, and suceeding on the climb?" Sometimes we opt to make sure we make it, sometimes we go for the experience. Sometimes we split the difference. Once we pass the point of no return, I assume more of the decision making.
I sent a partner who was a 5.7 leader up Boot Flake on the Nose once. We had practiced aid on the ground before the climb. We were catching up with the party ahead of us too fast so we could afford to slow things down.
It worked. It got dark while we did the grey bands traverse! But he made it. The all girl party on Camp 4 didn't want us to climb up and share the ledge with us, even though they kept flirting with the French team above them.
Peace
Karl
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timstich
Dec 11, 2003, 12:05 AM
Post #31 of 38
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In reply to: The guy was on Vacation couldn't find a partner so he called CMS and said give me your strongest guide, and told them what he wanted to climb and his experience...then proceeded to drag the guide up some serious;y hairball $hit. The guide was stoked, he got to climb some really hard/good stuff and got a tip at the end. The client was stoked to have a solid safe partner... josh
Yeah, that's sounds pretty cool! If you have a business trip taking you near a climbing area and you can't line up a partner, hiring a guide makes a lot of sense. I know some who would consider that to be against their religion, but then they have the partner finding skills down. One good thing about hiring a guide to climb a wall with you, they are unlikely to bail due to fear and dread.
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gawd
Dec 11, 2003, 1:02 AM
Post #32 of 38
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if you hire a guide it better be from the YMS. you will not be able to lead anything. you will be required to be screened and then taken on some warm up routes for the guide evaulate your abilites. all the YMS guides are better climbers then anyone on this board. if you hire a bandit guide you are breaking the law and putting yourself and your bandit guide at risk. if you epic you will be arrested and subjected to criminal prosecution as well as your guide. if you choose to hire a bandit guide ask yourself ehy you choose to be selfish and further the poor image the park service has of climbers.
have fun and be safe.
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karlbaba
Dec 11, 2003, 3:50 AM
Post #33 of 38
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I know Ken Yager guides El Cap for YMS a lot. He's been up it a load of times and I'm sure would be a patient and safe partner. He's an authority on the history of climbing in Yosemite.
Going with YMS is certainly the safest choice. They don't take chances and you'd be well insured.
Still, it don't think going an alternative route is some kind of moral crime. The Park Service would be more affected if you got in over your head doing it yourself and needed a rescue.
Peace
Karl
That's all I'm saying on this thread. Probably shouldn't have said anything. Have good holidays folks.
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smellyhippie
Dec 12, 2003, 3:24 AM
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My experience in Yosemite with a non-YMS "guide" was excellent. Never thought much of a guide needing an NPS stamp of approval to be legit...I just asked around and made my own decision.
Nate
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moabbeth
Dec 12, 2003, 3:45 AM
Post #35 of 38
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In reply to: if you choose to hire a bandit guide ask yourself ehy you choose to be selfish and further the poor image the park service has of climbers.
How is choosing a bandit guide "selfish." So up in gawd's rarified air, people like Ammon or Karl aren't qualified to guide people up a piece of rock they've climbed dozens of times???
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buttets
Dec 12, 2003, 4:24 AM
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Registered: Jul 23, 2002
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Well, here's my 2-cents worth. I have a friend in England that comes over here once a year. he doesn't lead anything, but pays for it all as I take all the risks... It works out great as I love leading and he just wants to climb safely. This year we did Elcap and Halfdome and next year we are going to do the north face of the grand teton...
So I guide for him, but he still climbs it all either free or jugging. Who cares - he is just happy to get to the top.
Now in your case since you sound like a pretty good climber. I did my first big wall, Salathe, about 20 years ago or so when I lead 5.11 trad. We did everything wrong including dropping all our food at the first bivy. We continued to climb for 3 days without food. Yes it was hard, but to get to the top on your first wall is just mental! Break it down so you only worry about each pitch or just the climbing for that day!
You can easily do the nose or Salathe. Practice aid climbing on trees and some easy routes - its not that hard just time consuming. And, of course, practice hauling. Ask around and someone will show you how to set it up. We learned on the go on our first big wall and if we can do it I'm sure you can!!!!!!!!!
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dynoer
Dec 13, 2003, 12:48 AM
Post #37 of 38
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Registered: Nov 20, 2003
Posts: 29
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pay someone to haul you up El Cap, it wont be the same as if you had taken the time to learn the required techniques, and worked your way up smaller walls first till you felt confident with yourself and partner to tackle El cap. and when you get to the top I guarante you wont be as stoked as the rest of us who really climbed it. But hey you dont have that much time and moneys not a problem. Might as well do Everest next !
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diesel___smoke
Dec 16, 2003, 6:32 AM
Post #38 of 38
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Registered: Aug 9, 2003
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In reply to: if you epic you will be arrested and subjected to criminal prosecution as well as your guide...
Probably only you would be arrested in such a situation... as you have a problem with keeping your mouth shut to the Tool. You must talk to be arrested in such a position. You would have to admit or concede something, they couldn't force you tell them whether you were being guided or not. Keep quiet and all would be well, not just for your benefit, but for the 'bandit' guide who is probably just trying to make enough money to eat for the next few weeks while living his (her) dream.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Copperhead yet. I don't know if he'll guide, but he's certainly going to be extremely over qualified to guide. After all, he's put up some of the sickest routes in Yosemite. Check with him...
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