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Difference between Mountaineers and Alpinists?
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dingus


Dec 16, 2003, 7:50 AM
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Difference between Mountaineers and Alpinists?
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dmt


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Dec 16, 2003, 7:52 AM
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[i:a1b7531b92]nice[/i:a1b7531b92], dingus. :wink:


mother_sheep


Dec 16, 2003, 8:09 AM
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I'm a mountaineering alpinist.

Or maybe I'm an alpinist mountaineer.

Hmmmm. . ..


capn_morgan


Dec 16, 2003, 8:26 AM
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Thats what makes us "special". And why Alpinism will never become a popular pastime.

If its easy and success is guaranteed, is it worth doing? It is alot like playing poker, it requires skill and awareness, But if the cards don't fall in your favor you need to know when to get out. 8)


the_pirate


Dec 16, 2003, 8:39 AM
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I thought it had to do with whether you peed inside or outside the tent.... 8)


Partner tim


Dec 16, 2003, 8:42 AM
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# of fingers and toes


capn_morgan


Dec 16, 2003, 8:48 AM
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hmm...dont alot of people on guided expiditions who get in trouble loose digits?


maldaly


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The simplest answer? With no disrespect, mountaineers walk up mountains (Often with ropes, etc.) and alpinists climb them.

MCD


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In reply to:
# of fingers and toes

Best answer so far. :lol:


mother_sheep


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The simplest answer? With no disrespect, mountaineers walk up mountains (Often with ropes, etc.) and alpinists climb them.

MCD


This is kind of the way that I look at it too. When I hike up 14'ers, I classify that as mountaineering. When I technically climb them, I classify that as alpinism. But what about alpine snow slogs that require the use of pickets and such? I classify that as mountaineering as well. Throw in some technical rock and ice and then I call it alpinism. Seems like alpinists and mountaineers are synonymous in many ways. Would be interesting to hear Mark Twight's opinion on the differences. I've seen Sir Edmund Hillary classified as a mountaineer but I imagine he can easily also be categorized as an alpinist.


capn_morgan


Dec 16, 2003, 9:28 AM
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Seige style climbs of large mountains/walls would seem to fall under mountaineering.

Alpinism is to mountaineering what ultralight backpacking is to your typical 60lb pack carrying trudgefest. carry less, go faster.


jebel_andi


Dec 16, 2003, 9:44 AM
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who pees in the tent and who doesn't? mountaineers or alpinists?


the_pirate


Dec 16, 2003, 9:47 AM
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In reply to:
who pees in the tent and who doesn't? mountaineers or alpinists?

Mountaineers get out of the tent to pee.

Alpinists pee in a bottle and store that at the bottom of their sleeping bag.


jkarns


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I always kinda thought that mountaineering requires glacier travel.

Alpinism requires technical rock and/or ice at altitude (but might NOT require glacier travel)

Climbing a mountain that requires NEITHER of these is just hiking.


yeti


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Doesn't this denomination date back to the period when mountain climbing was exported to other ranges than the Alps? In french, there is such a thing as an Andinist and a Himalayist. Couldn't mountaineering just be the general term for mountain climbing, and couldn't alpinism just be mountaineering in the Alps?


jebel_andi


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who pees in the tent and who doesn't? mountaineers or alpinists?


burcham


Dec 16, 2003, 10:13 AM
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I was interested to know how the difference came about (not that for a second I doubted the authenticity of the number of toes explanation.) So I poked around the net a little and found this on the UIAA (Internatinal Mountaineering & Climbing Federation) website. Turns out Alpinists are simply French mountaineers... :?

"Because the exploration of mountains was first developed in the Alps, the term alpinism was rapidly adopted to describe the new occupation. When climbers began to take on the Andes and the Himalayas, there arose the neologisms andinism and himalayanism despite the fact that the occupation remained unchanged. But it was soon recognized that the original word was more practical. We shall therefore use the term alpinism or (in the English translation) mountaineering to describe our sport without in any way intending to impose on others the thought that climbers in the Alps are in any way entitled to supremacy!"
--UIAA Introduction - History

I know this definition doesn't exactly g-haul with definitions state-side...but it's interesting none the less.


cryder


Dec 16, 2003, 10:26 AM
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Alpinist vs. Mountaineer. Hmmm... to the general public, its a meaningless differentation when the ultimate measurable is still wether or not you stand on top of something really high and really scary. To us, its our very own caste system that transcends every corner of our sport and ironically undermines the freedom we intend for ourselves by climbing in the first place.

Its rather odd that we consider ourselves "alpinists". I dont consider myself an alpinist simply because the style in which I climb sometimes conforms with a trendy expectation of convention. The ethic of Alpinism is a wonderful dynamic objective, but not a susinct identity that I feel I can own as a static moniker.

I wonder if our need for alpinism is a product of the climbers fasination with the extreme pursuits, and has relpaced "the unclimbed" with "the unclimbed ______ (insert clever route name here) of _______ (insert trendy mountain range here)". Ultimately its a transitional means to an end that hinges on redefining what is possible, and fuels our basic need to redefine ourselves at the same time.

- n -


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Dec 16, 2003, 10:53 AM
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Cryder,

I have to say that is one of the most intelligent and insightful posts I have ever seen on this site. Thank you.


cryder


Dec 16, 2003, 10:58 AM
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Awww shucks. :oops:


janr


Dec 16, 2003, 11:04 AM
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In reply to:
to the general public, its a meaningless differentation when the ultimate measurable is still wether or not you stand on top of something really high and really scary

I think you have hit the nail on the head. The ultimate measureable for the general public is the summit. It may also be the same for the majority of mountaineers.

But for the alpinist, the route is the goal. Alpinists sometimes do not bother with the summit.


punk


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Alpinist vs. Mountaineer
They are one and the same it is jus a chestbeat contest…who cares??? Climb in whatever style u choose and label yourself according to your self insecurity (Yeah… need to sound cools for the chicks and the gapers)
I call myself an outdoor enthusiast without the trendy label bull
Alpinist…Mountaineer… Aid…Trad it is all labeling…and one crock-o-shait if u think that it makes any difference


Partner tim


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back to more important matters:

punk, YM 'Outkast'.

HTH


punk


Dec 16, 2003, 12:03 PM
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In reply to:
back to more important matters:

punk, YM 'Outkast'.

HTH

ya rite


capn_morgan


Dec 16, 2003, 12:31 PM
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"outdoor enthusiast" now that makes me giggle :lol:

Is that kinda like being "outdoorsy" ?


punk


Dec 16, 2003, 12:38 PM
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In reply to:
"outdoor enthusiast" now that makes me giggle :lol:

Is that kinda like being "outdoorsy" ?


Yeah mr hardman Alpine climber :roll:
outdoor enthusiast- thats all I am


cryder


Dec 16, 2003, 12:46 PM
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But for the alpinist, the route is the goal. Alpinists sometimes do not bother with the summit.

By modern definitions of climbing, an important distinction.

The more I climb, the less relevant the summit becomes. Its really tough to qualify that principle for people who don’t climb. At times Alpinism seems diametrically opposed to the very name of what we do; "climbing". And yet, in our culture of climbing we measure by what is climbed, implying the pursuit of success by emphasizing completion. Alpinism is an anomaly that values an ethic over achieving... its climbing for the sake of climbing. And all obstacles that should otherwise detract from the pursuit, stand only to enhance it. No wonder climbers seem so eccentric to the masses.

- n -


capn_morgan


Dec 16, 2003, 12:56 PM
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some people really need to lighten up a bit. I agree that labels on their own are of no value, but that having an identity is not a bad thing.

that...and if we didnt differnetiate between trad/sport/boulder etc etc climbers we wouldnt have very much to argue about here now would we :twisted:

Alpinism ....or its currently generaly accepted defianition is what best describes my ethics/aspirations in climbing. What defines me is what I do, how I handle myself in the mountains and out, and how I interact with other people.


T-A=0 :wink:


janr


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Alpinism is an anomaly that values an ethic over achieving... its climbing for the sake of climbing. And all obstacles that should otherwise detract from the pursuit, stand only to enhance it.

No, it's still about achieving. It's just that the focus has changed a little bit. Instead of just getting to the top any way you can, now the idea is to get up something in a more difficult, and arguably more aesthetic, way. It's a natural progression, historically speaking. It's a common progression for many climbers too, to go from peak bagger to route bagger, although lots of us indulge in both pursuits.

In basic mountain climbing the object is to reach the summit by any or the easiest route possible. In rock climbing it's not really necessary to reach a summit; the game seems to amount to finding the most difficult ways of getting nowhere. ---Warren Harding

Warren was talking about rock climbing, but I think you could substitute alpinism and the same would hold.


cryder


Dec 16, 2003, 1:16 PM
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IMO, it does value ethic over achieving. Achieving is still important, but the experience often takes precedence.


punk


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In reply to:
Alpinism is an anomaly that values an ethic over achieving... its climbing for the sake of climbing.

Like I said it is all about the label...the more decoration your title has the more hardman U R :roll:
Why giving a degrees to climbing as a genera...don’t everyone climb for themselves for their own achievements souping that with seemingly intellectual remark is just dipping sh!t in candy
Climb for yourself it makes no difference to the world, and certainly the label wont help it is all about your own boundaries
Who cares? Go out and climb


dingus


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And all obstacles that should otherwise detract from the pursuit, stand only to enhance it.

Right, the hazards are the objective.

In my own world, I don't think of myself as an alpinist. If you were to ask me on the climbing street what kind of climber I am, alpinist may in fact be the last thing mentioned.

It isn't easy being an alpinist in California, for starters. And another thing, I don't often do the alpinism thing. It's not like I go out day after day alping.

There is a 3rd level of 'mountain climber' to my way of thinking, the entry level for some, the epitome for others and that is peak bagging. That is the climbing activity I associate with 'hiking a peak.' I'm sorry, but I reject utterly that categorization of mountaineering.

Norman Clyde is perhaps the best example I can imagine of a mountaineer. And if you think Norman "hiked" those Sierra peaks of his, more Sierra first ascents than anyone in history, then I suspect you have not done many of his climbs (if any)!

On some days I am a peak bagger and I like nothing better than a 5000 foot hike up some 1st or 2nd class scramble.

On fewer days I am a mountaineer, taking on technical problems enroute to the summit.

And on a precious few days I am an alpinist, purpoisely taking on difficulties for the sake of the difficulties (and bragging rights later in the bar of course). The left couloir is sort of a romper room alpine climb in that respect.

So yeah, I'm a climber. I climb things. One of my most respected partners, Kevin, once described me to a mutual acquaintance. He referred to me as an alpinist. I have to admit, I was pleased that this very gifted and far more capable climber than I (and 15 years younger to boot) granted me this most trad of titles, as I'm sure the word never slipped from my tongue in his presence.

And yet, I also laughed. Imagine me, an alpinist? No way!

And then I realized... WAY. Alpinism is where you find it.

DMT


janr


Dec 16, 2003, 1:29 PM
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IMO

Fair enough. Of course the word alpinist will not be so easily pinned down by our pet definitions, whether they are what we think the majority of climbers believe the word means or just how we wished they'd use the word. Instead, it will continue to be used in different and sometimes contradictory ways. This is one of the things that's wonderful about words.


dingus


Dec 16, 2003, 1:34 PM
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Instead, it will continue to be used in different and sometimes contradictory ways. This is one of the things that's wonderful about words.

Word.

Dude.

The other wonderful thing about words like this is they give us something to talk about.

Or we could all just turn off our computers.

DMT


cryder


Dec 16, 2003, 1:43 PM
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Or we could all just turn off our computers.

DMT

Heretic.


janr


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I just meant that I feel uncomfortable leaning too hard into my own view of what alpinism means, or what I feel it means or should mean or whatever. The word carries many connotations and who am I to select some and discount others?

Norman Clyde as mountaineer vs. peak bagger is a good example. I think he was unabashedly both of these, sometimes obviously one or the other and on other occasions he was both of them at once. You could toss the word alpinist at Norman too and I'm sure it would stick.


tradguy


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I would consider Alpinists to be a subset of Mountaineers - a sort of specialty within the group. Kind of like boulders be a specialty within rock climbing. I've done alpine style climbs, but still consider myself a mountaineer.


hugepedro


Dec 16, 2003, 2:24 PM
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Fred Beckey is a climber.


There has long been a sentiment in mountaineering that the means is the end. It's about the journey (and what it takes to make it) more so than the goal. So I disagree with the idea that Alpinism is somehow separate from mountaineering in that regard.

I think that both terms are interchangeable, and I'll refer to the bible as proof. Mountaineering: The Freedom of the Hills. Everything that's been written as being in the realm of Alpinism is covered in that book.

The only distinction I make in my use of the two words depends entirely on my audience and the context of the subject. When talking about vertical climbing, and/or if my audience is someone who is primarily a rock climber (or perhaps dabbles in water ice), then I might refer to alpine climbing, or a particular route as an alpine climb, because that has specific meaning to them in that context. (Other than that, it can be used to describe a style, as in, "we're going to climb it alpine style" as opposed to "expedition style" - fast, light, and overnight.)

I prefer to just call it all climbing.


dredsovrn


Dec 16, 2003, 2:30 PM
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I thought it was primarily the smell. Maybe I am thinking or something else though.


mother_sheep


Dec 16, 2003, 2:35 PM
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I thought it was primarily the smell. Maybe I am thinking or something else though.

Which directly relates to who pees in the tent and who doesn't.

My attempt at humor.

Carry on. Good thread!


moeman


Dec 16, 2003, 2:37 PM
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Testicle size


alpinestylist


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Mountaineering= which tent?

Alpinism= what tent?

I think climbing is climbing, but only on my great days do I feel alpine worthy. It is about the means, the style, the day. It can come back and bite you in your ass too. Tune in and send?


T-A=0


climbsomething


Dec 16, 2003, 3:00 PM
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Good read, this thread. and my own label is "sport climber." :P I want to contribute some witticism too, but I don't think it's quite my place. So keep posting, alpineers, so I can keep reading.


jhump


Dec 16, 2003, 4:36 PM
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This is just plain gross, but...

Alpinists defecate in the tent in a ziplock bag. Mountaineers hold the alpinist's Nalgene bottle tripod as a support crew. Sometimes it is just too nasty to go out and do the business. Keep a mountaineer around just for this purpose. Remeber to allow the mountaineer to pack it out.


punk


Dec 16, 2003, 5:12 PM
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In reply to:
Alpinists defecate in the tent in a ziplock bag.

Never saw or heard about it....what u afraid to freeze your wee wee...but about cleaning the mess it is a different story...

In reply to:
Remember to allow the mountaineer to pack it out.

You pack it out regardless of your "Alpine" label and how eminent your ego is it is your mess don’t put it in someone else’s water supply


sandbag


Dec 16, 2003, 5:17 PM
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Water Supply? Ever heard of Mountain Goats, Bears, Elk, etc? who isnt pooping in the water supply. jeesh.


jhump


Dec 16, 2003, 5:38 PM
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But my alpine label and eminent ego could not possibly allow me to carry my own waste. Gasp. I am the elite of elites...an alpinist, and should be treated with the dignity my attainment commands.

Seriously punk, I can count on you to scrutinize my most sarcastic and over the top posts. I just thought I would take this method-of-going-potty-as-defining-one-as-a-climber thread to the next level. Poopin in a tent- that's impossible. 8) Only the scourge of the earth would do such a thing.


dingus


Dec 16, 2003, 5:45 PM
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But my alpine label and eminent ego could not possibly allow me to carry my own waste.

Frickin A! It's not like anyone but another alpinist is going to encounter that turd anyway, and she'll understand!

DMT


punk


Dec 16, 2003, 5:46 PM
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In reply to:
punk, I can count on you to scrutinize my most sarcastic and over the top posts. .

Thanx...yours truly Punk

In reply to:

I just thought I would take this method-of-going-potty-as-defining-one-as-a-climber thread to the next level. Poopin in a tent- that's impossible. 8) Only the scourge of the earth would do such a thing.

Yeah we only calling them AID climbers


punk


Dec 16, 2003, 5:59 PM
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Water Supply? Ever heard of Mountain Goats, Bears, Elk, etc? who isnt pooping in the water supply. jeesh.

Yep, once they will allow me making a fine meal out of you I will agree that you don’t have to curb after yourself
But since you belong to a species of higher intelligence (hardly evident in your case) it is required that u will take a responsible action for your deeds


sandbag


Dec 16, 2003, 7:52 PM
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:shock:
did you say you wanted to eat me?
Jeesh, Hannibal Lector look out!!!!


punk


Dec 16, 2003, 8:40 PM
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In reply to:
:shock:
did you say you wanted to eat me?
Jeesh, Hannibal Lector look out!!!!
A census taker once tried to test me. I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice Chi-an-ti.
I find you rude and I don’t like rude people
:twisted:


mrme


Dec 16, 2003, 9:42 PM
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Alpinist vs. Mountaineer
They are one and the same it is jus a chestbeat contest…who cares??? Climb in whatever style u choose and label yourself according to your self insecurity (Yeah… need to sound cools for the chicks and the gapers)
I call myself an outdoor enthusiast without the trendy label bull
Alpinist…Mountaineer… Aid…Trad it is all labeling…and one crock-o-shait if u think that it makes any difference


without labels on what you are capable of how can you tell someone that you do something? i mean i would like to know a sport climber from a aid climber if i planned on doing aid, i mean outdoor enthuseast just doesn't explain that for a lot of people. labeling yourself and outdoor enthuseast means alot i mean do you bird watch? do you hike? do you climb? do you mean climbing in all areas of expertess? do you kayakee? do you hunt? or do you drive a Jeep offroad? i don't call myself any label except that wich was given to me at birth by my parents, though i can label the things i am capable on a passage of what i have done and do.


mrtropy


Dec 16, 2003, 10:00 PM
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Re: Difference between Mountaineers and Alpinists? [In reply to]
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I lead mounaineiring, I following alpine and I fee solo peak bagging.


punk


Dec 17, 2003, 8:28 AM
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In reply to:
i mean outdoor enthuseast just doesn't explain that for a lot of people. labeling yourself and outdoor enthuseast means alot i mean do you bird watch? do you hike? do you climb? do you mean climbing in all areas of expertess? do you kayakee? do you hunt? or do you drive a Jeep offroad? i don't call myself any label except that wich was given to me at birth by my parents, though i can label the things i am capable on a passage of what i have done and do.

I don’t understand why do I need to explain myself to PP, and as part of my activities I Bird watch, I hike, I fish, I climb, I ride snowmobiles, I watch the sunset etc.
There is allot more to the title outdoor enthusiast then we like to admit…but this is a whole different story.
So yes, calling someone alpinist is actually limiting the experience and sharpening the so call aloof image…someone call the title eccentric…my question is, one adopt the title out of definition or out of egoism booster??? Now there is a fine line….it is cool to be aloof these days doesn’t it. so we all alpinists although we don’t know sh!t about what dose it mean so we need a topic that define it :wink:


dingus


Dec 17, 2003, 8:41 AM
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In reply to:
I don’t understand why do I need to explain myself to PP,

From the user profile:
In reply to:
Im a Gear HO too...

So much for your egoless, titleless society? Me thinks thou doest protest too much. Don't you see how labeling yourself a HO is limiting? Hehe.

DMT


punk


Dec 17, 2003, 8:51 AM
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In reply to:
So much for your egoless, titleless society? Me thinks thou doest protest too much. Don't you see how labeling yourself a HO is limiting? Hehe.

DMT

I am a GEAR HO that define me for all the gear I have and this is still very particular description
Alpinist is very vague it is a definition for array of skills, experiences, and methods that are broader then we can put a label on
:wink:
BTW how can u call a Gear ho an egoism booster if anything it is a fault it is a synonymous for compulsive shopper …yeah I laugh at my weaknesses and acknowledge them too


janr


Dec 17, 2003, 9:34 AM
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Caught red handed and still he tries to squirm away.

Fact is, punk, we're not telling people that we're alpinists. We're just talking about what that might mean, to participate in alpinism. I suspect Dingus thinks he's done some of that, but I also know he's gone mountaineering, cragging, bouldering, and it wouldn't surprise me if he watches birds and maybe even runs naked through the woods (outdoor enthusiasm?). People are lots of things at different times or all at once. What is a gear HO anyways?


dingus


Dec 17, 2003, 9:43 AM
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I a gear HO that define me for all the gear I have and this is still very particular description
Alpinist is very vague it is a definition for array of skills, experiences, and methods that are broader then we can put a label on
:wink:

I see! So when it's you making up the title, no ego is involved. I mean, after all, "GEAR HO" is a highly refined term recognized across this wide land in meaning and context! EVERYONE knows what a gear ho is! Is that what you're asserting?

But when I use some term like alpinist, that's ego tripping. Got it. Thanks!

DMT


punk


Dec 17, 2003, 10:04 AM
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BTW how can u call a Gear ho an egoism booster if anything it is a fault it is a synonymous for compulsive shopper …yeah I laugh at my weaknesses and acknowledge them too

:wink: :roll:


dingus


Dec 17, 2003, 10:10 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
BTW how can u call a Gear ho an egoism booster if anything it is a fault it is a synonymous for compulsive shopper …yeah I laugh at my weaknesses and acknowledge them too

BTW how can u call alpinist an egoism booster is anything it is a fault it is a synonymous for a masochist who doesn't know when to quit... yeah I laugh at my weaknesses and acknowledge them too.

wink wink

DMT


janr


Dec 17, 2003, 10:24 AM
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Oh I get it now, Gear HO = Gear Whore. A pseudo-self-deprecating affectation that lets everybody know that you're very, very knowledgable about climbing gear.


hugepedro


Dec 17, 2003, 10:32 AM
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This thread is a textbook case study of the Dingus tribe theory. High-larious.

Carry on.


punk


Dec 17, 2003, 10:35 AM
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In reply to:
BTW how can u call alpinist an egoism booster is anything it is a fault it is a synonymous for a masochist who doesn't know when to quit... yeah I laugh at my weaknesses and acknowledge them too.

wink wink

DMT

What a crock o sh!te
Again you try to define a broad experiences, skills and activities by labeling it Alpinist it is like a catch 22 that u cant seems to do the definition that is why u returning to the same point and trying to bully it heads on
Where is the irony in alpinism, where is the anti glamour description as I recall all description of alpine venturous describe human triumph, purity, strict style all of which can contribute to one pompous and vaunt ego
your equation is comparing apples to oranges


punk


Dec 17, 2003, 10:42 AM
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In reply to:
Oh I get it now, Gear HO = Gear Whore. A pseudo-self-deprecating affectation that lets everybody know that you're very, very knowledgable about climbing gear.

that exactly what it is Gear Whore I do everybody and I buy everything
u see I am not a gear rep or a gearhead so I am not “A pseudo-self-deprecating affectation that lets everybody know that you're very, very knowledgable about climbing gear”
get it straight!! A minute ago u didn’t know what Gear-ho means


mother_sheep


Dec 17, 2003, 10:48 AM
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I like to melt cheese on Chex Mix and eat it before bed.


punk


Dec 17, 2003, 10:51 AM
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I like to melt cheese on Chex Mix and eat it before bed.
:lol: :lol:


hugepedro


Dec 17, 2003, 10:54 AM
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I like to melt cheese on Chex Mix and eat it before bed.

Furkin elitist. Pfffffff.


janr


Dec 17, 2003, 11:03 AM
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So punk, what exactly are you arguing for? That we strike the word alpinist from the language? That any use of it, or any term that carries some positive attributes and is not very well defined, should be discouraged for fear that it might be misused as a boast? That nobody is an alpinist or a mountaineer or a big wall climber or a bird watcher? We are all simply "outdoor enthusiasts"?

Well what about indoor activities? Isn't the term outdoor enthusiast a bit pompous? Surely the indoor crowd (gym climbers, knitters, players of Monopoly) will feel slighted. Exactly what does "outdoor" mean anyhow? What if you're just in the backyard? Then there are those who are unenthusiastic about their outdoor and indoor activities and they'll be plenty ticked off as well by your high and mighty claim of enthusiasm.

Punk. For someone with supposedly so little ego, you sure come across as arrogant when it comes to how other people use words.


capn_morgan


Dec 17, 2003, 11:37 AM
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I don’t understand why do I need to explain myself to PP, and as part of my activities I Bird watch, I hike, I fish, I climb, I ride snowmobiles, I watch the sunset etc.
There is allot more to the title outdoor enthusiast then we like to admit…but this is a whole different story.
So yes, calling someone alpinist is actually limiting the experience and sharpening the so call aloof image…someone call the title eccentric…my question is, one adopt the title out of definition or out of egoism booster??? Now there is a fine line….it is cool to be aloof these days doesn’t it. so we all alpinists although we don’t know sh!t about what dose it mean so we need a topic that define it :wink:

you "climb" eh? It seems that your missing something here. We are discussing something that for some people is an all consuming passion. Not something they do once in awhile on the weekends. Maybe its just me but "riding snowmobiles and watching sunsets" is a bit different than be passionate about climbing, in whatever sense.

To some people, Im guessing you are in the catergory, climbing (mostly the kind that happens on warm sunny days and in heated gyms) is a fun enjoyable activity. For other people, it is what they think about most of the time and everything else in some way leads to or from climbing. The only winter "sport" that you mention is snowmobiling. i ahve a hard time seeing why you are so worked up about this discussion, which started out as a lighthearted disuccins with a rather humerous twist. I think you should go watch your sunsets and stop worry about other peoples "egoism boosters" You seem more worried about what other people think of you than anyone else here. So go away and let us continue this thread in the amsuing manner it started. PUNK!!!



PS. you dont happen to live in Suburbia and drive an SUV do you? just curious.


alpinestylist


Dec 17, 2003, 12:38 PM
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What an impassioned discussion?

Alpinism? How can one word, is it a verb or adjective?, stir up so much rumbling?

Yes, to some it is an all encompassing ethos that saturates even there every day lives. To them I say, rally on. I just got off a two year "alpinism" bender. Best two seasons of my life.

Now, with just a touch of distance from that time, I am scared and wary of this term. It seemed living in "alpinism" was at the top of the cycle.

You can practice being an alpinist everytime you climb. Grab some more pitches, run a little, climb when its cold, coil the rope quicker. But, to really be one would incurr great humility that isn't often seen on the internet.

Talk about it all you want....



T - A= 0


hugepedro


Dec 17, 2003, 12:38 PM
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To some people, Im guessing you are in the catergory, climbing (mostly the kind that happens on warm sunny days and in heated gyms) is a fun enjoyable activity.

Man, I can't tell you how irritating it is to me when in the middle of a [BURTBRONSON]SERIOUS[/BURTBRONSON] climbing discussion someone says, "climbing is for fun, so who cares about {insert: bolts, ethics, style, punk-ass pebble wrestlers, etc.} . . . as long as you're having fun that's all that matters"

NO.

If climbing is fun to you, you are doing it wrong.


dingus


Dec 17, 2003, 12:55 PM
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Again you try to define a broad experiences, skills and activities by labeling it Alpinist it is like a catch 22 that u cant seems to do the definition that is why u returning to the same point and trying to bully it heads on

My original definition stands, sorry. Your input is rejected. Feel free to resubmit in the new year. I believe the Word Committee meets the first week of Feb. Your paperwork will need to be submitted no later than one week prior to receive any consideration. Oh, you' may want to brush up on your arguments before then. Somehow, they-just-don't-do-it.

See ya then HO.

DMT


capn_morgan


Dec 17, 2003, 2:01 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
To some people, Im guessing you are in the catergory, climbing (mostly the kind that happens on warm sunny days and in heated gyms) is a fun enjoyable activity.

Man, I can't tell you how irritating it is to me when in the middle of a [BURTBRONSON]SERIOUS[/BURTBRONSON] climbing discussion someone says, "climbing is for fun, so who cares about {insert: bolts, ethics, style, punk-ass pebble wrestlers, etc.} . . . as long as you're having fun that's all that matters"

NO.

If climbing is fun to you, you are doing it wrong.

There is nothing wrong with climbing for fun, exercise or whatever. I was jsut pointing this out as it applies to this discussion. If you are climbing simply for enjoyment then you most likely arent gettting up at 4am to go climbing when you know you are going to get wet, be hungry and possibly die. There are other reasons. Im not saying that it being fun isnt one of them....its always fun later.


hugepedro


Dec 17, 2003, 2:13 PM
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There is nothing wrong with climbing for fun, exercise or whatever. I was jsut pointing this out as it applies to this discussion. If you are climbing simply for enjoyment then you most likely arent gettting up at 4am to go climbing when you know you are going to get wet, be hungry and possibly die.

Right, just like I said. Not doing it right. :wink:


janr


Dec 17, 2003, 2:22 PM
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There is nothing wrong with climbing for fun, exercise or whatever

That's very true. But it wouldn't be alpinism.

"Why bother with a guaranteed outcome? Courage and skill are of little use in a confrontation with certainty." --- Mark Twight


bishopclimber


Dec 17, 2003, 4:11 PM
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me thinks Dingus has waaaay tooooo much time on his hands.
the dictionary definitions are as follows:

[indigo]alpinist: a mountaineer that climbs mountains primarily in the Alps
mountaineer: a person that climbs mountains
[/indigo]


janr


Dec 17, 2003, 6:24 PM
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Re: Difference between Mountaineers and Alpinists? [In reply to]
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me thinks Dingus has waaaay tooooo much time on his hands.

Perhaps. I know I do at the moment.

In reply to:
the dictionary definitions are as follows:

alpinist: a mountaineer that climbs mountains primarily in the Alps
mountaineer: a person that climbs mountains

Dictionary definitions, huh? Well I'll pull out a different dictionary and it says: "Alpinist: a mountain climber who specializes in difficult climbs".

But we're talking about climbing terminology and the dictionaries don't usually cover that too well. Try looking up sport climber or outdoor enthusiast.

I think it may be presumptuous of Dingus or myself to impose a definition on the rest of the world, but at the same time I believe that there is a difference between what most climbers think when they see the words mountaineer vs. alpinist. Can't you picture it? The crusty old dude in the lederhosen busting up the long snow slope to the summit where his picture is taken, ice axe raised? Versus the goretex-clad pair on a 42 hour push up a rarely climbed ridge?

Alpinism is climbing primarily in the Alps? You better break the news to Christian Beckwith.


alpnclmbr1


Dec 17, 2003, 7:20 PM
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Re: Difference between Mountaineers and Alpinists? [In reply to]
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Mark Twight's take:
Alpine style is mountain climbing reduced to its purest essence,…
Alpine style means attempting to climb mountains on the most equitable footing possible, neither applying excessive technology to overcome deficits in skill or courage nor using permanently damaging tactics and adhering to this ethos from beginning to end.
climbing the hardest routes with the least gear.

the opposite?:
fixed ropes, siege tactics, stocked camps, Sherpa support, oxygen.


mrme


Dec 17, 2003, 7:46 PM
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Re: Difference between Mountaineers and Alpinists? [In reply to]
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i mean outdoor enthuseast just doesn't explain that for a lot of people. labeling yourself and outdoor enthuseast means alot i mean do you bird watch? do you hike? do you climb? do you mean climbing in all areas of expertess? do you kayakee? do you hunt? or do you drive a Jeep offroad? i don't call myself any label except that wich was given to me at birth by my parents, though i can label the things i am capable on a passage of what i have done and do.

I don’t understand why do I need to explain myself to PP, and as part of my activities I Bird watch, I hike, I fish, I climb, I ride snowmobiles, I watch the sunset etc.
There is allot more to the title outdoor enthusiast then we like to admit…but this is a whole different story.
So yes, calling someone alpinist is actually limiting the experience and sharpening the so call aloof image…someone call the title eccentric…my question is, one adopt the title out of definition or out of egoism booster??? Now there is a fine line….it is cool to be aloof these days doesn’t it. so we all alpinists although we don’t know sh!t about what dose it mean so we need a topic that define it :wink:


just wanted to make sure you were thinking by labelling yourself there ... heheheh :lol: i know i have meet you before and you don't let ego run your life you seemed just to love the moment.... if you get any trips going before febuary pm me.


mrme


Dec 17, 2003, 8:03 PM
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Re: Difference between Mountaineers and Alpinists? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
To some people, Im guessing you are in the catergory, climbing (mostly the kind that happens on warm sunny days and in heated gyms) is a fun enjoyable activity.

Man, I can't tell you how irritating it is to me when in the middle of a [BURTBRONSON]SERIOUS[/BURTBRONSON] climbing discussion someone says, "climbing is for fun, so who cares about {insert: bolts, ethics, style, punk-ass pebble wrestlers, etc.} . . . as long as you're having fun that's all that matters"

NO.

If climbing is fun to you, you are doing it wrong.

There is nothing wrong with climbing for fun, exercise or whatever. I was jsut pointing this out as it applies to this discussion. If you are climbing simply for enjoyment then you most likely arent gettting up at 4am to go climbing when you know you are going to get wet, be hungry and possibly die. There are other reasons. Im not saying that it being fun isnt one of them....its always fun later.

in defence of others i have chose to climb in what most would consider miserable conditions and wake up at or before dawn and wish it wouldn't stop .... i have also done the same stuff and decided to pack it up and turn around because it was no fun....furthermore i have done what you said to stuck it out and looked back on it as fun...and also looked back on it as what the f#ck was i thinking.


punk


Dec 17, 2003, 8:16 PM
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Re: Difference between Mountaineers and Alpinists? [In reply to]
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My original definition stands,

Or should you say Kneel mr Jackson wanabe.... :wink:
Here it is from your profile
In reply to:

Dingus Blows. (I think the boy fouled himself!)

In reply to:
sorry. Your input is rejected. Feel free to resubmit in the new year. I believe the Word Committee meets the first week of Feb. Your paperwork will need to be submitted no later than one week prior to receive any consideration. Oh, you' may want to brush up on your arguments before then. Somehow, they-just-don't-do-it.

According to Dictionary .com
Alpinism is
In reply to:
al•pin•ism also Al•pin•ism ( l p -n z m)
n.
Mountain climbing, especially in the Alps
Now since most here are not Euro and Never did climb in the Alps and/or definitely DO NOT “especially” climbing in the Alps
Therefore they are all a bunch of WANKERS that looking for chicks, gapers and noobs admiration :roll:

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See ya then HO.

DMT
Ill be standing in the corner with yo MOMMA :twisted:


mrme


Dec 17, 2003, 8:24 PM
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Re: Difference between Mountaineers and Alpinists? [In reply to]
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Mark Twight's take:
Alpine style is mountain climbing reduced to its purest essence,…
Alpine style means attempting to climb mountains on the most equitable footing possible, neither applying excessive technology to overcome deficits in skill or courage nor using permanently damaging tactics and adhering to this ethos from beginning to end.
climbing the hardest routes with the least gear.

the opposite?:
fixed ropes, siege tactics, stocked camps, Sherpa support, oxygen.

i thought fixed ropes, sherpas, and ect... were expoditions not mountianering or alpinism...

though to the general public rock climbing is no difrent to any of this mountianering alpinism expodition stuff. so in the long run what does it matter what you call yourself...if the time arizes for purpose of the activity then you say what you have done want to do and think you are capable of. then set of and do it in said agreed style and if solo is your game what does it matter then no one needs to know any way except your mates if you and your mates share stuff like that.


mrme


Dec 17, 2003, 8:33 PM
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Re: Difference between Mountaineers and Alpinists? [In reply to]
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unless your looking for fame or a label to show of to people of course wich exsecially works on the opest sex i mean a little talk can be a lot more than a bunch of action if you don't talk.


fanederhand


Dec 18, 2003, 7:03 AM
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Re: Difference between Mountaineers and Alpinists? [In reply to]
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I do not know what all the fuss is about. Simply put, alpinists are a subset of Mountaineers. From a practical point of view most mountaineers should have some alpinist skills. The higher a mountaineer wants to go the more alpinist skills he needs. Latitude and time a year also effects this issue as well. So the difference between a mountaineer and an alpinist mountaineer is where (or what mountain) the mountaineer chooses to climb. If the conditions are right (latitude, weather season, elevation) he will have to be an alpinist.


punk


Dec 18, 2003, 11:23 AM
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So punk, what exactly are you arguing for? That we strike the word alpinist from the language? That any use of it, or any term that carries some positive attributes and is not very well defined, should be discouraged for fear that it might be misused as a boast? That nobody is an alpinist or a mountaineer or a big wall climber or a bird watcher? We are all simply "outdoor enthusiasts"?

Yep...none is doing it as life style...but if u do you earned it

In reply to:
Well what about indoor activities? Isn't the term outdoor enthusiast a bit pompous? Surely the indoor crowd (gym climbers, knitters, players of Monopoly) will feel slighted. Exactly what does "outdoor" mean anyhow?

Outdoors
In reply to:
Main Entry: 2outdoors
Function: noun plural but singular in construction
Date: 1844
1 : a place or location away from the confines of a building
2 : the world away from human habitations

Bolded is the common description therefore if they pulling plastic they are not in the outdoors...duh!!!

In reply to:
What if you're just in the backyard? Then there are those who are unenthusiastic about their outdoor and indoor activities and they'll be plenty ticked off as well by your high and mighty claim of enthusiasm.

Well let them see the definition of the word...they wont feel bad :roll:

In reply to:
Punk. For someone with supposedly so little ego, you sure come across as arrogant when it comes to how other people use words.

Mommy, mommy this bad man call me names http://smile.smilies.nl/407.gif


janr


Dec 18, 2003, 11:55 AM
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Yep...none is doing it as life style...

A new criteria: you have to be doing it as a lifestyle or else you can't use the label.

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but if u do you earned it

But I thought it was just about ego?? Did you earn your gear whore title?


punk


Dec 18, 2003, 12:04 PM
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but if u do you earned it

But I thought it was just about ego?? Did you earn your gear whore title?

yes I did earn it… for all the pleased merchants that got my money...they left with a smile....yeah man I am GOOD...better then GOOD http://smile.smilies.nl/548.gif


capn_morgan


Dec 18, 2003, 12:05 PM
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Re: Difference between Mountaineers and Alpinists? [In reply to]
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this is kinda a silly topic to have a serious dicussion about isnt it?


punk


Dec 18, 2003, 12:10 PM
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this is kinda a silly topic to have a serious dicussion about isnt it?
In reply to:
we all alpinists although we don’t know sh!t about what dose it mean so we need a topic that define it :wink:
:twisted:


mrme


Dec 18, 2003, 12:43 PM
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I do not know what all the fuss is about. Simply put, alpinists are a subset of Mountaineers. From a practical point of view most mountaineers should have some alpinist skills. The higher a mountaineer wants to go the more alpinist skills he needs. Latitude and time a year also effects this issue as well. So the difference between a mountaineer and an alpinist mountaineer is where (or what mountain) the mountaineer chooses to climb. If the conditions are right (latitude, weather season, elevation) he will have to be an alpinist.
so every one that does everst is an alpinest.... that just doesn't make much since.....hhhhmmmmm gotta think about it


janr


Dec 18, 2003, 1:00 PM
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we all alpinists although we don’t know sh!t about what dose it mean so we need a topic that define it

In your overzealous attempts to show us that using the word alpinist is a sign of a big ego you may have missed something: this hasn't been a thread full of people claiming they were alpinists. This was a discussion about what the words alpinist and mountaineer mean. Perhaps it wouldn't have set off alarms in your brain if we'd discussed it as alpinism and mountaineering. While one could argue against assuming the title without paying serious dues, you could still be a Monday thru Friday nine to fiver (like say, Mick Fowler) and go out and participate in alpinism as a hobby, without the heavy baggage of the big ego term alpinist around your neck.

The point of being egoless is somewhat disingenuous in the first place. "I'm better than you because I have no ego" is a laughable argument. Neri, you use the moniker "punk" and call yourself a "whore". These are expressions of your ego, whether you consider them positive or not. They are affectations, no different than a blue haircut or a bone through your nose; they are ways of saying "this is ME". And there's nothing wrong with that. Nor is there any evil in discussing the differences between alpinism and mountaineering.


slabbyd


Dec 18, 2003, 1:18 PM
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Mountaineer: Someone who climbs the descent routes :wink:


punk


Dec 18, 2003, 1:40 PM
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This was a discussion about what the words alpinist and mountaineer mean.

so???

In reply to:
Perhaps it wouldn't have set off alarms in your brain if we'd discussed it as alpinism and mountaineering. While one could argue against assuming the title without paying serious dues,

right ...and???

In reply to:
you could still be a Monday thru Friday nine to fiver (like say, Mick Fowler) and go out and participate in alpinism as a hobby, without the heavy baggage of the big ego term alpinist around your neck.

exactly, and the word for it is....

In reply to:
The point of being egoless is somewhat disingenuous in the first place. "I'm better than you because I have no ego" is a laughable argument.

Never did this argument ...you started manifesting things

In reply to:
Neri, you use the moniker "punk" and call yourself a "whore". These are expressions of your ego, whether you consider them positive or not. They are affectations, no different than a blue haircut or a bone through your nose; they are ways of saying "this is ME". And there's nothing wrong with that. Nor is there any evil in discussing the differences between alpinism and mountaineering.

Now if u were man enough u will get out behind the handle name bent over and take it like a tranny
But u are the lurker type http://smile.smilies.nl/549.gif


janr


Dec 18, 2003, 1:59 PM
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This was a discussion about what the words alpinist and mountaineer mean.

so???

Exactly. So what? But you jumped to the conclusion that the words by themselves presumed elitism. As if one could not call themselves an artist or a scientist for fear of alienating the janitors and construction workers of the world. Are all of these pursuits identical? Well? Actually, no they're not. Alpinist and mountaineer are also differerent.

In reply to:
Now if u were man enough u will get out behind the handle name bent over and take it like a tranny

Ah punky-poo, you're not my type. A bit too round in the middle and much too narrow at the top.


punk


Dec 18, 2003, 4:42 PM
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Exactly. So what? But you jumped to the conclusion that the words by themselves presumed elitism. As if one could not call themselves an artist or a scientist for fear of alienating the janitors and construction workers of the world. Are all of these pursuits identical? Well? Actually, no they're not. Alpinist and mountaineer are also differerent.

Read the first responses on the topic you will see where I am coming from

BTW is anyone else’s has a grate time on this topic ...or it is only me
lets hear ya


adamtd


Jan 5, 2004, 5:27 PM
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Re: Difference between Mountaineers and Alpinists? [In reply to]
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I generally think about it as alpinism as eing a part of teh great wide sport of mountaineering, just as rock climbing is a part of mountaineering. And I think that if you looke at the root of alpinism, you would find that it is teh act of alpine climbing. There fore it's mountaineering in an alpine environment that requires climbing. What does it matter though? Tell someone the name of the mountain and it's grade. If they don;t understand what you're telling them, save your breath and change teh topic of conversation.


mheyman


Jan 5, 2004, 7:03 PM
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Isn't this exactly what Dingus wrote in the first post?!


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Jan 5, 2004, 8:05 PM
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Re: Difference between Mountaineers and Alpinists? [In reply to]
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Alpinism is an art form

Mountaineering is a trade, a day job, blue collar work. Mountaineering is the raw unrefined material from which something higher, something more beautiful can be made (read:alpinism) by the individuals (read: alpinists) who have a rare appreciation for a mountain and its lines.


micahmcguire


Jan 7, 2004, 2:17 AM
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The two are so intimately synonymous, its very difficult to distinguish their objectives. I would have to say that mountaineers shoot for a summit, while alpinists shoot for good routes. In this way, mountianeers search for that elusive "end," while alpinists simply do it for the "means." Either way, you're kickin ass.


slhappy


Jan 11, 2004, 8:03 AM
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the internet


skiclimb


Jan 11, 2004, 10:17 AM
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Alpinism is a subset of mountaineering involving a relatively lightweight and fast style of climbing technical routes...It is within the realm of mountaineering...It's that simple.


jhump


Jan 11, 2004, 12:00 PM
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Ego, elitism, whatever. I have bought into the tenets of alpinism. The greatest objective, the minimum gear, the boldest approach. Anything less to me is fun, but not what I need out of climbing. I do not label myself alpinist, but alpinism is my ideal. Ego plays no role in my approach, I climb for noone but myself. The ego in this thread appears to be coming from those who loath the term alpinist. I will play my game, and you may play yours. I prefer to leave the talk out, and let actions speak. I think the actions of alpinism speak loudest.


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