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Difference between Mountaineers and Alpinists?
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janr


Dec 17, 2003, 2:22 PM
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There is nothing wrong with climbing for fun, exercise or whatever

That's very true. But it wouldn't be alpinism.

"Why bother with a guaranteed outcome? Courage and skill are of little use in a confrontation with certainty." --- Mark Twight


bishopclimber


Dec 17, 2003, 4:11 PM
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me thinks Dingus has waaaay tooooo much time on his hands.
the dictionary definitions are as follows:

[indigo]alpinist: a mountaineer that climbs mountains primarily in the Alps
mountaineer: a person that climbs mountains
[/indigo]


janr


Dec 17, 2003, 6:24 PM
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me thinks Dingus has waaaay tooooo much time on his hands.

Perhaps. I know I do at the moment.

In reply to:
the dictionary definitions are as follows:

alpinist: a mountaineer that climbs mountains primarily in the Alps
mountaineer: a person that climbs mountains

Dictionary definitions, huh? Well I'll pull out a different dictionary and it says: "Alpinist: a mountain climber who specializes in difficult climbs".

But we're talking about climbing terminology and the dictionaries don't usually cover that too well. Try looking up sport climber or outdoor enthusiast.

I think it may be presumptuous of Dingus or myself to impose a definition on the rest of the world, but at the same time I believe that there is a difference between what most climbers think when they see the words mountaineer vs. alpinist. Can't you picture it? The crusty old dude in the lederhosen busting up the long snow slope to the summit where his picture is taken, ice axe raised? Versus the goretex-clad pair on a 42 hour push up a rarely climbed ridge?

Alpinism is climbing primarily in the Alps? You better break the news to Christian Beckwith.


alpnclmbr1


Dec 17, 2003, 7:20 PM
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Re: Difference between Mountaineers and Alpinists? [In reply to]
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Mark Twight's take:
Alpine style is mountain climbing reduced to its purest essence,…
Alpine style means attempting to climb mountains on the most equitable footing possible, neither applying excessive technology to overcome deficits in skill or courage nor using permanently damaging tactics and adhering to this ethos from beginning to end.
climbing the hardest routes with the least gear.

the opposite?:
fixed ropes, siege tactics, stocked camps, Sherpa support, oxygen.


mrme


Dec 17, 2003, 7:46 PM
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i mean outdoor enthuseast just doesn't explain that for a lot of people. labeling yourself and outdoor enthuseast means alot i mean do you bird watch? do you hike? do you climb? do you mean climbing in all areas of expertess? do you kayakee? do you hunt? or do you drive a Jeep offroad? i don't call myself any label except that wich was given to me at birth by my parents, though i can label the things i am capable on a passage of what i have done and do.

I don’t understand why do I need to explain myself to PP, and as part of my activities I Bird watch, I hike, I fish, I climb, I ride snowmobiles, I watch the sunset etc.
There is allot more to the title outdoor enthusiast then we like to admit…but this is a whole different story.
So yes, calling someone alpinist is actually limiting the experience and sharpening the so call aloof image…someone call the title eccentric…my question is, one adopt the title out of definition or out of egoism booster??? Now there is a fine line….it is cool to be aloof these days doesn’t it. so we all alpinists although we don’t know sh!t about what dose it mean so we need a topic that define it :wink:


just wanted to make sure you were thinking by labelling yourself there ... heheheh :lol: i know i have meet you before and you don't let ego run your life you seemed just to love the moment.... if you get any trips going before febuary pm me.


mrme


Dec 17, 2003, 8:03 PM
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To some people, Im guessing you are in the catergory, climbing (mostly the kind that happens on warm sunny days and in heated gyms) is a fun enjoyable activity.

Man, I can't tell you how irritating it is to me when in the middle of a [BURTBRONSON]SERIOUS[/BURTBRONSON] climbing discussion someone says, "climbing is for fun, so who cares about {insert: bolts, ethics, style, punk-ass pebble wrestlers, etc.} . . . as long as you're having fun that's all that matters"

NO.

If climbing is fun to you, you are doing it wrong.

There is nothing wrong with climbing for fun, exercise or whatever. I was jsut pointing this out as it applies to this discussion. If you are climbing simply for enjoyment then you most likely arent gettting up at 4am to go climbing when you know you are going to get wet, be hungry and possibly die. There are other reasons. Im not saying that it being fun isnt one of them....its always fun later.

in defence of others i have chose to climb in what most would consider miserable conditions and wake up at or before dawn and wish it wouldn't stop .... i have also done the same stuff and decided to pack it up and turn around because it was no fun....furthermore i have done what you said to stuck it out and looked back on it as fun...and also looked back on it as what the f#ck was i thinking.


punk


Dec 17, 2003, 8:16 PM
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My original definition stands,

Or should you say Kneel mr Jackson wanabe.... :wink:
Here it is from your profile
In reply to:

Dingus Blows. (I think the boy fouled himself!)

In reply to:
sorry. Your input is rejected. Feel free to resubmit in the new year. I believe the Word Committee meets the first week of Feb. Your paperwork will need to be submitted no later than one week prior to receive any consideration. Oh, you' may want to brush up on your arguments before then. Somehow, they-just-don't-do-it.

According to Dictionary .com
Alpinism is
In reply to:
al•pin•ism also Al•pin•ism ( l p -n z m)
n.
Mountain climbing, especially in the Alps
Now since most here are not Euro and Never did climb in the Alps and/or definitely DO NOT “especially” climbing in the Alps
Therefore they are all a bunch of WANKERS that looking for chicks, gapers and noobs admiration :roll:

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See ya then HO.

DMT
Ill be standing in the corner with yo MOMMA :twisted:


mrme


Dec 17, 2003, 8:24 PM
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Mark Twight's take:
Alpine style is mountain climbing reduced to its purest essence,…
Alpine style means attempting to climb mountains on the most equitable footing possible, neither applying excessive technology to overcome deficits in skill or courage nor using permanently damaging tactics and adhering to this ethos from beginning to end.
climbing the hardest routes with the least gear.

the opposite?:
fixed ropes, siege tactics, stocked camps, Sherpa support, oxygen.

i thought fixed ropes, sherpas, and ect... were expoditions not mountianering or alpinism...

though to the general public rock climbing is no difrent to any of this mountianering alpinism expodition stuff. so in the long run what does it matter what you call yourself...if the time arizes for purpose of the activity then you say what you have done want to do and think you are capable of. then set of and do it in said agreed style and if solo is your game what does it matter then no one needs to know any way except your mates if you and your mates share stuff like that.


mrme


Dec 17, 2003, 8:33 PM
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unless your looking for fame or a label to show of to people of course wich exsecially works on the opest sex i mean a little talk can be a lot more than a bunch of action if you don't talk.


fanederhand


Dec 18, 2003, 7:03 AM
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I do not know what all the fuss is about. Simply put, alpinists are a subset of Mountaineers. From a practical point of view most mountaineers should have some alpinist skills. The higher a mountaineer wants to go the more alpinist skills he needs. Latitude and time a year also effects this issue as well. So the difference between a mountaineer and an alpinist mountaineer is where (or what mountain) the mountaineer chooses to climb. If the conditions are right (latitude, weather season, elevation) he will have to be an alpinist.


punk


Dec 18, 2003, 11:23 AM
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So punk, what exactly are you arguing for? That we strike the word alpinist from the language? That any use of it, or any term that carries some positive attributes and is not very well defined, should be discouraged for fear that it might be misused as a boast? That nobody is an alpinist or a mountaineer or a big wall climber or a bird watcher? We are all simply "outdoor enthusiasts"?

Yep...none is doing it as life style...but if u do you earned it

In reply to:
Well what about indoor activities? Isn't the term outdoor enthusiast a bit pompous? Surely the indoor crowd (gym climbers, knitters, players of Monopoly) will feel slighted. Exactly what does "outdoor" mean anyhow?

Outdoors
In reply to:
Main Entry: 2outdoors
Function: noun plural but singular in construction
Date: 1844
1 : a place or location away from the confines of a building
2 : the world away from human habitations

Bolded is the common description therefore if they pulling plastic they are not in the outdoors...duh!!!

In reply to:
What if you're just in the backyard? Then there are those who are unenthusiastic about their outdoor and indoor activities and they'll be plenty ticked off as well by your high and mighty claim of enthusiasm.

Well let them see the definition of the word...they wont feel bad :roll:

In reply to:
Punk. For someone with supposedly so little ego, you sure come across as arrogant when it comes to how other people use words.

Mommy, mommy this bad man call me names http://smile.smilies.nl/407.gif


janr


Dec 18, 2003, 11:55 AM
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Yep...none is doing it as life style...

A new criteria: you have to be doing it as a lifestyle or else you can't use the label.

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but if u do you earned it

But I thought it was just about ego?? Did you earn your gear whore title?


punk


Dec 18, 2003, 12:04 PM
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but if u do you earned it

But I thought it was just about ego?? Did you earn your gear whore title?

yes I did earn it… for all the pleased merchants that got my money...they left with a smile....yeah man I am GOOD...better then GOOD http://smile.smilies.nl/548.gif


capn_morgan


Dec 18, 2003, 12:05 PM
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this is kinda a silly topic to have a serious dicussion about isnt it?


punk


Dec 18, 2003, 12:10 PM
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this is kinda a silly topic to have a serious dicussion about isnt it?
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we all alpinists although we don’t know sh!t about what dose it mean so we need a topic that define it :wink:
:twisted:


mrme


Dec 18, 2003, 12:43 PM
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I do not know what all the fuss is about. Simply put, alpinists are a subset of Mountaineers. From a practical point of view most mountaineers should have some alpinist skills. The higher a mountaineer wants to go the more alpinist skills he needs. Latitude and time a year also effects this issue as well. So the difference between a mountaineer and an alpinist mountaineer is where (or what mountain) the mountaineer chooses to climb. If the conditions are right (latitude, weather season, elevation) he will have to be an alpinist.
so every one that does everst is an alpinest.... that just doesn't make much since.....hhhhmmmmm gotta think about it


janr


Dec 18, 2003, 1:00 PM
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we all alpinists although we don’t know sh!t about what dose it mean so we need a topic that define it

In your overzealous attempts to show us that using the word alpinist is a sign of a big ego you may have missed something: this hasn't been a thread full of people claiming they were alpinists. This was a discussion about what the words alpinist and mountaineer mean. Perhaps it wouldn't have set off alarms in your brain if we'd discussed it as alpinism and mountaineering. While one could argue against assuming the title without paying serious dues, you could still be a Monday thru Friday nine to fiver (like say, Mick Fowler) and go out and participate in alpinism as a hobby, without the heavy baggage of the big ego term alpinist around your neck.

The point of being egoless is somewhat disingenuous in the first place. "I'm better than you because I have no ego" is a laughable argument. Neri, you use the moniker "punk" and call yourself a "whore". These are expressions of your ego, whether you consider them positive or not. They are affectations, no different than a blue haircut or a bone through your nose; they are ways of saying "this is ME". And there's nothing wrong with that. Nor is there any evil in discussing the differences between alpinism and mountaineering.


slabbyd


Dec 18, 2003, 1:18 PM
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Mountaineer: Someone who climbs the descent routes :wink:


punk


Dec 18, 2003, 1:40 PM
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This was a discussion about what the words alpinist and mountaineer mean.

so???

In reply to:
Perhaps it wouldn't have set off alarms in your brain if we'd discussed it as alpinism and mountaineering. While one could argue against assuming the title without paying serious dues,

right ...and???

In reply to:
you could still be a Monday thru Friday nine to fiver (like say, Mick Fowler) and go out and participate in alpinism as a hobby, without the heavy baggage of the big ego term alpinist around your neck.

exactly, and the word for it is....

In reply to:
The point of being egoless is somewhat disingenuous in the first place. "I'm better than you because I have no ego" is a laughable argument.

Never did this argument ...you started manifesting things

In reply to:
Neri, you use the moniker "punk" and call yourself a "whore". These are expressions of your ego, whether you consider them positive or not. They are affectations, no different than a blue haircut or a bone through your nose; they are ways of saying "this is ME". And there's nothing wrong with that. Nor is there any evil in discussing the differences between alpinism and mountaineering.

Now if u were man enough u will get out behind the handle name bent over and take it like a tranny
But u are the lurker type http://smile.smilies.nl/549.gif


janr


Dec 18, 2003, 1:59 PM
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This was a discussion about what the words alpinist and mountaineer mean.

so???

Exactly. So what? But you jumped to the conclusion that the words by themselves presumed elitism. As if one could not call themselves an artist or a scientist for fear of alienating the janitors and construction workers of the world. Are all of these pursuits identical? Well? Actually, no they're not. Alpinist and mountaineer are also differerent.

In reply to:
Now if u were man enough u will get out behind the handle name bent over and take it like a tranny

Ah punky-poo, you're not my type. A bit too round in the middle and much too narrow at the top.


punk


Dec 18, 2003, 4:42 PM
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Exactly. So what? But you jumped to the conclusion that the words by themselves presumed elitism. As if one could not call themselves an artist or a scientist for fear of alienating the janitors and construction workers of the world. Are all of these pursuits identical? Well? Actually, no they're not. Alpinist and mountaineer are also differerent.

Read the first responses on the topic you will see where I am coming from

BTW is anyone else’s has a grate time on this topic ...or it is only me
lets hear ya


adamtd


Jan 5, 2004, 5:27 PM
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I generally think about it as alpinism as eing a part of teh great wide sport of mountaineering, just as rock climbing is a part of mountaineering. And I think that if you looke at the root of alpinism, you would find that it is teh act of alpine climbing. There fore it's mountaineering in an alpine environment that requires climbing. What does it matter though? Tell someone the name of the mountain and it's grade. If they don;t understand what you're telling them, save your breath and change teh topic of conversation.


mheyman


Jan 5, 2004, 7:03 PM
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Isn't this exactly what Dingus wrote in the first post?!


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Alpinism is an art form

Mountaineering is a trade, a day job, blue collar work. Mountaineering is the raw unrefined material from which something higher, something more beautiful can be made (read:alpinism) by the individuals (read: alpinists) who have a rare appreciation for a mountain and its lines.


micahmcguire


Jan 7, 2004, 2:17 AM
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The two are so intimately synonymous, its very difficult to distinguish their objectives. I would have to say that mountaineers shoot for a summit, while alpinists shoot for good routes. In this way, mountianeers search for that elusive "end," while alpinists simply do it for the "means." Either way, you're kickin ass.

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