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curt
Jan 30, 2004, 1:44 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Hey kid--just a question. Why in the world were you vehemently arguing the relative ethical merits of trad climbing versus sport climbing the other day - when you don't even know the difference between the two? Well old man... I blame you.......If I've read 100+ posts by you on the difference between sport and trad, and I still don't get it... well maybe I'm dumb.......
Its amazing, we finally agree on something.
In reply to: I read, I ask questions, and when something sounds wrong to me, I speak up. (And yes, I occasionally can't resist baiting people who make grand pronouncements.) I asked you a bunch of questions in those other threads, which you ducked. Thought maybe you didn't read them but it looks like you did. Seems you prefer to duck my difficult questions and then laugh at my silly ones.
Oops, back to being wrong again. I merely avoided all your silly questions. Although they claim there is no such thing as a stupid question, you provide ample evidence to the contrary.
In reply to: Anyway... to my wee, newbie climber mind... it sounds like Lynn "trad climbed" most of the Nose, and "sport climbed" a bit of it.
At least you are accurately stating your capacities here. So, this one I'll answer for you. The answer is "NO" Lynn Hill, when she freed The Nose, did a trad lead of a trad climb.
Curt
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muncher
Jan 30, 2004, 1:52 AM
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Hey, no need for that kind of language here, I might get offended. Sorry mate but despite everyone telling you otherwise you continue to state that the Nose is at least partially a sport climb. No harm done mate, just sometimes it is better to go do some research (you have read her book so you should understand), but better yet get some experience with different types of climbing and that alone will give you a far greater understanding of things than anything on this site. I am not claiming to be some guru, I'm far from it but I try to base my posts on my own experience and not anyone elses. (Except for freeing the Nose though huh, can't say I have done that one yet so maybe I am just talking crap).
And hey, what is the internet without a bit of flaming huh.
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mike_ok
Jan 30, 2004, 1:52 AM
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[quote="noodlearms
Calm down.
That goes for all involved. Internet forums can be a touchy place (don't even THINK about using dry, sacrastic humor :lol: ). You admitadly stated you know that sport/trad is a sensative issue around here, so don't be surprised that you get somewhat hostile, tired-of-answering-same-question answers.
That being said, the bolt=sport and no-bold=trad thinking isn't exactly correct, and thats where your confusion lies. Lynn didn't climb some pitches traditional and some sport. The entire route is a traditional climb. In traditional climbing, to protect blank parts of a climb, bolting has always been the way to go.
What you call sport climbing, and correctly associate with bolts, is a type of climbing in which #1) NO pitch will require traditional gear and #2) the climbing is relatively safe with little to no groundfall potential. There are some bolt only climbs in the Wichitas that I do NOT think of as "sport-climbing"... the first bolt might be 25ft up, with some serious runout after that.
The line is blury. Don't sweat it.
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pupjr
Jan 30, 2004, 1:53 AM
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Noodlearms, have you ever climbed in j-tree? If you ever get the chance try some bolted routes theres. What people haven't told you yet on this thread, that you might have read on others, i dunno what treads you have read. But all climbs that are trad tend to hand drilled on lead. If you climb in jtree you'll see what i mean. Big run outs usually, because that was only place to really free your hands and drill. As with the nost those bolts that are in place were place while leading (the ground up method), I'm sure they were on aid gear for the drilling on the nose. Most sport climbs are bolted top down, on rapell. That's the main difference. Sport climb you only need draws. Trad climb sure there can be a bolt, but it only be there if putting gear anywhere near that is non exsistent.
As for the other guy, i've never heard of him freeing the roof, let alone any guy. Hill's special in that she was exteremly small fingers, so thinner finger cracks are easier for her than guys. So it's not that most guys don't have the power, they just have hotdog fingers. not saying scott does, never seen his fingers. have you searched elsewhere in the internet for answers to scott?
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noodlearms
Jan 30, 2004, 1:54 AM
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curt, curt... despite your being a pompous blowhard, I liked you. You're entertaining. You're a hardcore climber. You know lots.
But today all of this is outweighed by the fact that you're an arrogant jerk who would rather score points than talk. It seems you are a waste of time.
(edited for language)
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noodlearms
Jan 30, 2004, 1:56 AM
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In reply to: What you call sport climbing, and correctly associate with bolts, is a type of climbing in which #1) NO pitch will require traditional gear and #2) the climbing is relatively safe with little to no groundfall potential. The line is blury. Don't sweat it.
Thank you. I obviously did not know that.
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curt
Jan 30, 2004, 2:00 AM
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In reply to: curt, curt... despite your being a pompous blowhard, I liked you. You're entertaining. You're a hardcore climber. You know lots. But today all of this is outweighed by the fact that you're an arrogant a**hole who would rather score points than talk.
You can't believe how tremendously crushed I am. But there is no point in talking if you're not listening, eh?
Curt
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mike_ok
Jan 30, 2004, 2:01 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: What you call sport climbing, and correctly associate with bolts, is a type of climbing in which #1) NO pitch will require traditional gear and #2) the climbing is relatively safe with little to no groundfall potential. The line is blury. Don't sweat it. Thank you. I obviously did not know that.
In reply to: don't even THINK about using dry, sacrastic humor :lol:
Don't tell me you went back on my first warning, now did you? :wink:
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joe
Jan 30, 2004, 2:01 AM
Post #34 of 134
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YEAH LETS ALL FIGHT!!
SPEORT CLIMBERZ VERSUS THE DIRTY TRAD HIPPAYZ.
I KILL YOU. TEH NOSE IS V2+
SUK IT.
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curt
Jan 30, 2004, 2:04 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: What you call sport climbing, and correctly associate with bolts, is a type of climbing in which #1) NO pitch will require traditional gear and #2) the climbing is relatively safe with little to no groundfall potential. The line is blury. Don't sweat it. Thank you. I obviously did not know that.
Additionally, if a bolted route is established from the ground up and the bolts are drilled by hand, from free stances (or even by hanging from hook placements) the route will probably be considered trad.
Curt
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joe
Jan 30, 2004, 2:08 AM
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i like to drill dirty hookerz from stances.
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noodlearms
Jan 30, 2004, 2:10 AM
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In reply to: But there is no point in talking if you're not listening, eh?
I guess everybody else here who finds something contradictory or wrong with something you say "isn't listening" either.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=arrogant
Bah.
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noodlearms
Jan 30, 2004, 2:11 AM
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In reply to: Don't tell me you went back on my first warning, now did you? :wink:
No... I really, tragically obviously didn't know. :oops:
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ricardol
Jan 30, 2004, 2:14 AM
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.. a few points ..
the pictures you asked questions about
1 - in the picture of the great roof, the tat that she's getting near looks to be a fixed piece of gear. not a preplaced piece of gear. -- why? -- look at the piece of sh*t tat on it, its been there for a while.
2 - the bolts on the picture that looks like the changing corners pitch. is not a sport climb. it is merely an unprotectable part of a trad pitch. (for lynn, for the rest of us, its a an aid pitch)
bottom line. i wonder if you've ever seen what it is that you are talking about .. (i mean the nose) .. one look at the sheer size of it, and the kind fo climbing that it takes to get anywhere on it, and you would not wonder if there is anything related to a sport climb on that route.
for 1 person on this planet, the nose is a free climb. -- for the rest of us, it is a big-wall aid climb.
apparently also, in the book she talks about how she really wanted to get the red-point ascent, but on the final day she took some falls. -- so that part of your question is valid .. -- though if you read the book you'll realize that the whole ascent was done ground up -- no pre-placed gear.
-- ricardo
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noodlearms
Jan 30, 2004, 2:20 AM
Post #40 of 134
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In reply to: As for the other guy, i've never heard of him freeing the roof, let alone any guy. Hill's special in that she was exteremly small fingers, so thinner finger cracks are easier for her than guys. So it's not that most guys don't have the power, they just have hotdog fingers. not saying scott does, never seen his fingers. have you searched elsewhere in the internet for answers to scott?
Yeah, I searched like crazy before posting. Found this:
http://www.mountaineering.ie/...00/news9905climb.htm
In reply to: Scott Burke recently completed the second free ascent of the Nose on El Capitan in Yosemite. He led every pitch except the great roof which he did on a top-rope as the rock was wet rock and bad weather was imminent. It seems to have taken him 11 or 12 days to complete the route as some days were lost due to bad weather. Some of the harder pitches were led while they were wet.
Obviously he's not quite in Hill's class (11 or 12 days!). I found an interview with Burke (that I can't seem to find again) in which he claims he'd freed (on lead) the Great Roof earlier, in training for the climb I guess.
I also found this Hill interview:
http://www.planetmountain.com/.../people/Hill/02.html
In reply to: Q:And what about Scott Birch’s free ascent of the Nose… A: What can I say? 261 days to climb all the pitches free… I respect his determination. The route was really hard for him and therefore a great result. Then again, it’s all a game!
Actually, she seems to kind of slam him a bit for taking it too seriously. Seems odd for someone whose life is climbing.
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curt
Jan 30, 2004, 2:26 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: But there is no point in talking if you're not listening, eh? I guess everybody else here who finds something contradictory or wrong with something you say "isn't listening" either. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=arrogant Bah.
In reply to: Arrogant: Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others.
Well, if the feeling or assumption is well founded, as in this case, that definition may not apply. Oh, by the way, you may want to check yourself out.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ignorant
Curt
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noodlearms
Jan 30, 2004, 2:29 AM
Post #42 of 134
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In reply to: bottom line. i wonder if you've ever seen what it is that you are talking about .. (i mean the nose) .. one look at the sheer size of it, and the kind fo climbing that it takes to get anywhere on it, and you would not wonder if there is anything related to a sport climb on that route.
No I have clearly not been to Yosemite. Just looked at a lot of pictures.
I'm pretty new. Everything looks hard to me.
In reply to: though if you read the book you'll realize that the whole ascent was done ground up -- no pre-placed gear.
Were I to re-read it now, with my vastly enhanced knowledge of climbing, I'm sure that would be clear.
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noodlearms
Jan 30, 2004, 2:47 AM
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In reply to: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ignorant
Yes. Ignorant of what a waste of time it is talking to you. Have fun lording your "superiority" over the next newbie who dares question anything you say. Hope you score lots of points and feel real big.
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coldclimb
Jan 30, 2004, 2:54 AM
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The secret to not pushing touchy people into huge flame wars on the internet is to not be so touchy yourself.
;)
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curt
Jan 30, 2004, 2:57 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ignorant Yes. Ignorant of what a waste of time it is talking to you. Have fun lording your "superiority" over the next newbie who dares question anything you say. Hope you score lots of points and feel real big.
Unlike yourself, most "newbies" come here to listen to and learn from those of us who actually do know what we are talking about. Hopefully you are at least smart enough to not get killed by ignoring all of the good advice given here--but I'm not so sure. Anyway, try not to get a Darwin Award. You are a prime candidate.
Curt
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scubaboy26
Jan 30, 2004, 3:11 AM
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I think I read it in Lynn Hill's biography that she free climbed the nose didn't she? I could be mistaken
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smithclimber
Jan 30, 2004, 3:52 AM
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In reply to: Hill's special in that she was exteremly small fingers, so thinner finger cracks are easier for her than guys. So it's not that most guys don't have the power, they just have hotdog fingers. not saying scott does, never seen his fingers. have you searched elsewhere in the internet for answers to scott?
Scott's fingers (and nearly everyone else's) are too big to fit into the back of the Great Roof. That's why he DIDN'T use the crack for his fingers while under the roof..... he used opposing pressure and body tension between his feet on the wall and his hands PRESSING against the underside of the roof.
My money is on Beth Rodden to be the next person to free the roof with their fingers actually in the crack...... lets just wait and see.
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okinawatricam
Jan 30, 2004, 3:53 AM
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Curt
In reply to: Additionally, if a bolted route is established from the ground up and the bolts are drilled by hand, from free stances (or even by hanging from hook placements) the route will probably be considered trad.
I guess this is one of the reasons you and I have debated so much. I have been on routes that were bolted from the ground up while hanging on hooks, I have also bolted a couple in this, which I definitely consider sport routes.
The reason I bolted the ones I did from hooks was that the top was not accessible. This could make an interesting forum. I think you and I may have a different definition of a sport route.
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jt512
Jan 30, 2004, 4:22 AM
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In reply to: If I've read 100+ posts by you on the difference between sport and trad, and I still don't get it... well maybe I'm dumb, but then, maybe you don't write so well.
Do we get to vote on this?
-Jay
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jt512
Jan 30, 2004, 4:24 AM
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In reply to: F*ck you both... I read her whole g*dd*mn book.... Chr*st you people are touchy around here.
We're touchy?
-Jay
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