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a_scender


Feb 25, 2004, 12:10 PM
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rappel knots
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what do you think the best rappel knot is for joining two ropes of the same size? I think the overhand has the least chance of becoming snagged, but should always be backed up. Maybe a figure eight instead?


superdiamonddave


Feb 25, 2004, 12:15 PM
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I used to use the double fisherman's knot, but now I use the overhand knot because as you said, it has less of a chance of snagging. I always dress it well and make it real tight. I also leave at least 15 inches of tail in case it rolls, though it never has.


davidji


Feb 25, 2004, 12:16 PM
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In reply to:
what do you think the best rappel knot is for joining two ropes of the same size? I think the overhand has the least chance of becoming snagged, but should always be backed up. Maybe a figure eight instead?

T2.

My apologies if it was actually a serious question.


wanlessrm


Feb 25, 2004, 1:06 PM
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Never a figure 8! = Death on Rappel


Partner j_ung


Feb 25, 2004, 1:33 PM
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In reply to:
Never a figure 8! = Death on Rappel

True dat. The flat-8 "unrolls" at lower loads than the overhand. Crazy Europeans had it right all along.


Partner oldsalt


Feb 25, 2004, 1:40 PM
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By an overhand knot, do you mean laying the two ends parallel to each other and tying a single overhand knot in the pair as if they were a single rope?

In Seamanship classes, I always taught to avoid the overhand. Of course, few dock lines experience 10 KN.


superdiamonddave


Feb 25, 2004, 1:43 PM
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Oldsalt,
That is the exact way it is done. It seemed weird to me the first few times I used it, but it works great.


vegastradguy


Feb 25, 2004, 1:46 PM
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oldsalt- yup. tie as one so the ends face the same way, with 10-12" of tail.

while not recommended for use in general climbing, this knot is acceptable for rappelling because it only needs to hold the weight of the climber (take into account bouncing on rappel and such)....but it doesnt need to hold high forces like a tie in point does. its primary advantages are: 1) doesnt snag and 2) is easy to untie. it is NOT recommended for joining ropes of different diameters.

this lovely little knot is referred to as the EDK (European Death Knot) because it looks dangerous, but strangely isnt.

i still use the fishermans. cant bring myself to rap on the thing. of course, with double lines, the fishermans is fairly small, so it doesnt snag like a single line will.


skerry00


Feb 25, 2004, 1:48 PM
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I would agree that the overhand knot or "american death knot" is the best way to go, I didn't belive it until I used it in the Tetons on some rappels, it didn't snag a bit. Make sure you leave a good tail(I usually leave a foot and a half or so).


skerry00


Feb 25, 2004, 1:50 PM
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Oh, I was told it was called the "american death knot", either way, it's a cool name


Partner oldsalt


Feb 25, 2004, 1:54 PM
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Dave,

Thanks, I've added it to my mental useful facts list.


shakylegs


Feb 25, 2004, 2:12 PM
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oldsalt, you just need to get your rappel rope stuck once, and you'll easy be converted.
Oh, one thing no one has mentioned, and I had to learn the hard way: do not tie a back-up knot to the overhand. Chances are the back-up will catch on something.


kman


Feb 25, 2004, 2:35 PM
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In reply to:
In Seamanship classes, I always taught to avoid the overhand.

...Ayy but this is climbing, not sailing ya scurvey dog.


northclimber


Feb 25, 2004, 9:13 PM
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The figure 8 also work well as long as you tie it so that the two end face opposite direction. back it up with a double fisherman on each side.

The good thing about this setup is that it is fine for rope of different diameter and it is easier to untie than the fisherman alone.


mmckinney


Feb 25, 2004, 9:31 PM
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In reply to:
I used to use the double fisherman's knot, but now I use the overhand knot because as you said, it has less of a chance of snagging. I always dress it well and make it real tight. I also leave at least 15 inches of tail in case it rolls, though it never has.
this is the ticket... just get it real tight, and leave those tails... amga certified!!!


madmax


Feb 26, 2004, 3:44 PM
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Another vote for the overhand knot. For rapping its as strong as any other knot and way less likely to get stuck. Tying another knot to back it up just defeats the whole purpose of the overhand in the first place.


sfclimber


Feb 26, 2004, 7:08 PM
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Great to see this topic come up.

The last time I was out climbing my partner (that I was climbing with for the first time) suggested rappelling off of this knot. Having never seen any information on this knot before, I refused and he graciously agreed to go with the more traditional grapevine knot.

After now seeing so many others comment on the knot I just did a quick google search on the knot too. Looking at the first few hits would seem to confirm the concensus on this thread that a well dressed overhand with long tail is a suitable rappel knot (though many of these articles recomend tying a second overhand as backup).

http://www.mountaineers.org/...nts/CN102_Knots.html
http://www.mountaineers.org/.../CN203_RapKnots.html

Accident using flat figure 8, concludes that overhand is superior.
http://www.rockandice.com/...s/accidents.127.html

Accident using overhand, inconclusive, many references to rangers, guides, etc. that use it for rappel
http://www.geocities.com/...es/stories/knot.html

Still don't know if I'll ever try it though. It just looks scarey!


hammer_


Feb 26, 2004, 7:20 PM
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EDK no back up


johnnord


Feb 26, 2004, 7:37 PM
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In reply to:
Another vote for the overhand knot. For rapping its as strong as any other knot and way less likely to get stuck. Tying another knot to back it up just defeats the whole purpose of the overhand in the first place.
ditto on madmax. The properly tied - long tails, well dressed & no "backup - overhand is the knot of choice for joining two near-same-sized ropes for rappel. After 10 year of double fisherman's, I've been rapping on overhands for 20 years. Check out Freedom of the Hills, AMGA, etc. KISS! Don't make your decisions based on what "looks" scary. The big hunkey knot is not (pardon the pun) necessarily stronger or more appropriate. The ability of the knot to hold the weight of a rappel, while essential, is not the most significant facotor in a rappel situation. There are a lot of knots that will hold the weight. The "hang up" factor is a much greater risk, not only to avoid having to unsnag the rope, but for the time issue. Tie and untie time is also a factor. In many multipitch or alpine situations, speed is the crucial factor.
Let me also make a pitch (again, sorry for the pun) for dropping the word "safe" from our discussions. Climbing is risky, not safe. Our goal is to manage the risk. 100% is "safe." Unfortunately, 99.9999% is the best we can hope for.


jonnyb


Feb 27, 2004, 10:03 AM
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Anyone ever used the 'figure 9' knot? I was shown it by a partner of mine. I won't try to explain how to tie it, but it sits up off the rock like the EDK, but won't roll over, and is the easiest thing to untie. I haven't been able to find any info on it online, though.


sfclimber


Feb 27, 2004, 11:45 AM
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Here's an additional page of information including a set of 20 pull tests using a mixture of flat overhand, flat figure 8, and the standard grapevine.

http://www.xmission.com/...yer/testing/EDK.html

Results show that even when tied sloppy and using a soaking wet rope, the grapevine is by far the strongest.

However a well dressed, pretensioned (pulled separately on all 4 strands) overhand on a variety of rope brands and sizes didn't roll until 1400 lbs. or more for a rope that was not wet.

When the rope was wet the knot rolled at 950 lbs. in one test.

Dressing and pretensioning the rope is critical! A sloppy overhand, not well pretensioned, failed at as low as 200 lbs.


johnnord


Feb 27, 2004, 4:20 PM
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Please correct me if I am mistaken (I'm sure on this forum someone will :wink: .) When we are talking about rollover on the overhand knot, it is not the same as failure. That's the reason for the long tails. The knot rollsover several times during testing, and each subsequent time at a higher weight. In other words, the knot becomes stronger with each rollover until the rope breaks at the knot at its normal breaking weight. So even the loose, undressed knot that rolls over at 200 lbs, will roll over the next time at a higher weight. Did I misread something?


jt512


Feb 27, 2004, 4:28 PM
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In reply to:
Here's an additional page of information including a set of 20 pull tests using a mixture of flat overhand, flat figure 8, and the standard grapevine.

http://www.xmission.com/...yer/testing/EDK.html

Results show that even when tied sloppy and using a soaking wet rope, the grapevine is by far the strongest.

However a well dressed, pretensioned (pulled separately on all 4 strands) overhand on a variety of rope brands and sizes didn't roll until 1400 lbs. or more for a rope that was not wet.

When the rope was wet the knot rolled at 950 lbs. in one test.

Dressing and pretensioning the rope is critical! A sloppy overhand, not well pretensioned, failed at as low as 200 lbs.

No, the overhand not did not "fail" in any of the tests. When it was tied sloppily it rolled, but it tightens up as it rolls, and eventually the rope fails at the knot at an acceptably high load. In other words, what Johnnord said.

Of course you should still dress and pretension the knot.

-Jay


vegastradguy


Feb 27, 2004, 4:31 PM
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the only time i've ever rapped off an EDK was the only time we had to jug the line to free the knot. so, while the fishermans is perhaps more likely, (although personally, i've never had it catch on me), the EDK is certainly not immune from catching.


johnnord


Feb 27, 2004, 4:45 PM
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In reply to:
the only time i've ever rapped off an EDK was the only time we had to jug the line to free the knot. so, while the fishermans is perhaps more likely, (although personally, i've never had it catch on me), the EDK is certainly not immune from catching.
You are right, vegastradguy. There are no guarantees, just odds, and the house always wins in the end. (What ever that means! :wink: )


mbg


Feb 27, 2004, 4:47 PM
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Never a figure 8! = Death on Rappel

Really?? I'd say that's going a bit overboard. I've almost always used an 8 and have never heard of anyone having a problem until the R&I ref. Even sfclimber's reference to the knot's failure in Zion says that the knot is ok if dressed and tightened properly. Every climber knows how to tie a figure 8 (I hope!) so if one were to find themselves at the top of a doubble rap and not 100% sure of how to tie some of the other more obscure knots, I'd suggest going with what they know (properly dressed and tightened of course).


johnnord


Feb 27, 2004, 5:51 PM
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As I read the data--
http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html
--there is nothing inherently wrong with the figure 8. It's strong enough. The issue is the potential for getting the knot caught when it is pulled...and speed and ease of untying. Sometimes, speed is an important risk management factor.


jt512


Mar 1, 2004, 10:10 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Never a figure 8! = Death on Rappel
Really?? I'd say that's going a bit overboard.

Yes, really. It's not going overboard.

In reply to:
I've almost always used an 8 and have never heard of anyone having a problem until the R&I ref.

So what are you going to do, keep using a figure 8 until you do "have a problem"? What a brilliant idea.

In reply to:
Even sfclimber's reference to the knot's failure in Zion says that the knot is ok if dressed and tightened properly. Every climber knows how to tie a figure 8 (I hope!) so if one were to find themselves at the top of a doubble rap and not 100% sure of how to tie some of the other more obscure knots, I'd suggest going with what they know (properly dressed and tightened of course).

The overhand knot is not obscure. And, in fact, it is easier to tie than a figure 8.

In reply to:
As I read the data--
http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html
--there is nothing inherently wrong with the figure 8. It's strong enough. The issue is the potential for getting the knot caught when it is pulled...and speed and ease of untying. Sometimes, speed is an important risk management factor.

Speed? An overhand is quicker to tie than a figure 8. And when speed is important is exactly when a climber is most likely to make a mistake, and that is the problem with the flat figure 8. If you don't tie it perfectly it is a death knot. The overhand, on the other hand, allows for a greater margin of error.

Read the conclusions of the author of the pull tests:

"The flat-overhand is clearly better than the flat-figure-eight. The flat-eight is represented three-to-one in the accidents despite (to the best of my knowledge) many more climbers using the overhand. The flat-eight also starts flipping at a lower load (750 lbs vs 1400 lbs for well-tied, 110 lbs vs 200 lbs for badly tied) than the overhand, and it eats two to three times as much tail in each flip."

-Jay


mustclimb69


Mar 1, 2004, 10:16 AM
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Reef knot or square knot...then you can do the whole alpine butterfly thing for the safety loop...but usually just a reef knot and back it up with double overhands. if the route is slabby or has a high risk of getting cought then the overhand with super long tails.


Partner rrrADAM


Mar 1, 2004, 10:28 AM
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EDK (Euro Death Knot), also known as a simple overhand.


dcclimb


Mar 1, 2004, 10:38 AM
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For ropes of the same diameter I use the EDK as well. As JT said it is quick, effective, easy, and safe.

For ropes of different diameters, the double fisherman.


scotto


Mar 1, 2004, 10:42 AM
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out of curiosity - what would you use if you were joining say a 10.5 and a 10.2 - or a 10.5 and an 11.0???

would either of those be considered "the same size rope"

cause I have 3 ropes and none are the same size.


sfclimber


Mar 1, 2004, 10:44 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Dressing and pretensioning the rope is critical! A sloppy overhand, not well pretensioned, failed at as low as 200 lbs.

No, the overhand not did not "fail" in any of the tests. When it was tied sloppily it rolled, but it tightens up as it rolls, and eventually the rope fails at the knot at an acceptably high load. In other words, what Johnnord said.

Of course you should still dress and pretension the knot.

Actually, the knot will definatively fail at one of two points: rope failure, or knot rolls right off the ends of the tails (which may occur well below the breaking strength of the rope).

However, in the article quoted, the author states:

I do not think that there's an easy definition of the strength of the flat-knots. Most of the time, if the tails are long enough, the process of repeated flips stops at some point and the knot cinches tighter and then holds until the rope breaks. In my testing, this often happened just as the knot was about to run out of tail. Since this process is so uncertain, I regard the force at the first flip as the failure load for the knot. I have seen other test data published which simply lists the strength (force at rope-failure) of the flat-knots. I think this is extremely misleading.

So my usage of the term 'fail' within the context of the article was correct. Though, the reader should understand the author's definition of the term when considering the data.

Thanks to all for pointing out the ambiguity.


madmax


Mar 1, 2004, 10:47 AM
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[quote="scotto"]out of curiosity - what would you use if you were joining say a 10.5 and a 10.2 - or a 10.5 and an 11.0???

would either of those be considered "the same size rope"quote]

I think a 10.5 and a 10.2 a definitely safe to tie together using an overhand, and the 10.5 and 11 as well. The 10.2 is probably safe with the 11, but that's just a guess.


mandrake


Mar 1, 2004, 11:13 AM
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In reply to:
For ropes of the same diameter I use the EDK as well. As JT said it is quick, effective, easy, and safe.

For ropes of different diameters, the double fisherman.

I've seen this a couple of times in this thread, not to use the EDK with different diameter ropes. However, when looking at the Tom Moyer tests, the 8mm static and 11mm dynamic tied together with an overhand didn't roll until 950 (wet) to 1330 lbs. (dry). Why not use it for different diameter ropes?


csoles


Mar 1, 2004, 11:28 AM
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In reply to:
Why not use it for different diameter ropes?

Old myths die hard. The offset overhand bend (proper name) is fine with climbing ropes of different diameters.


johnnord


Mar 2, 2004, 6:20 PM
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In reply to:
As I read the data--
http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html
--there is nothing inherently wrong with the figure 8. It's strong enough. The issue is the potential for getting the knot caught when it is pulled...and speed and ease of untying. Sometimes, speed is an important risk management factor.

Speed? An overhand is quicker to tie than a figure 8. And when speed is important is exactly when a climber is most likely to make a mistake, and that is the problem with the flat figure 8. If you don't tie it perfectly it is a death knot. The overhand, on the other hand, allows for a greater margin of error.

I am sorry that my meaning was not clear. I was arguing IN FAVOR OF THE OVERHAND (EDK) KNOT because of the speed factor. I thought the context was clear, but obviously not. jjt512 is exactly correct.


johnnord


Mar 2, 2004, 6:21 PM
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In reply to:
As I read the data--
http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html
--there is nothing inherently wrong with the figure 8. It's strong enough. The issue is the potential for getting the knot caught when it is pulled...and speed and ease of untying. Sometimes, speed is an important risk management factor.

Speed? An overhand is quicker to tie than a figure 8. And when speed is important is exactly when a climber is most likely to make a mistake, and that is the problem with the flat figure 8. If you don't tie it perfectly it is a death knot. The overhand, on the other hand, allows for a greater margin of error.

I am sorry that my meaning was not clear. I was arguing IN FAVOR OF THE OVERHAND (EDK) KNOT because of the speed factor. I thought the context was clear, but obviously not. jjt512 is exactly correct.


johnnord


Mar 2, 2004, 6:23 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
As I read the data--
http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html
--there is nothing inherently wrong with the figure 8. It's strong enough. The issue is the potential for getting the knot caught when it is pulled...and speed and ease of untying. Sometimes, speed is an important risk management factor.

Speed? An overhand is quicker to tie than a figure 8. And when speed is important is exactly when a climber is most likely to make a mistake, and that is the problem with the flat figure 8. If you don't tie it perfectly it is a death knot. The overhand, on the other hand, allows for a greater margin of error.

I am sorry that my meaning was not clear. I was arguing IN FAVOR OF THE OVERHAND (EDK) KNOT because of the speed factor. I thought the context was clear, but obviously not. jjt512 is exactly correct.

This got all fouled up. The "Speed?" is jt512's. The apology is mine. Sorry twice. :oops:


bullheadedmonkey


May 4, 2004, 9:16 PM
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You do not want to use a overhand figure 8 where both tails are on one side. A friend of mind was likely killed because he used that knot 10 years ago. It was reported in the 1995 Accidents in NA moutaineering book. It was sad to read that more recent report about the death that was likely caused by the same mistake.


iamn8seemewreck


May 4, 2004, 9:35 PM
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The double overhand knott is one that will work and is compatible with the standard. Quite possibly a barrell knot will work as well. A figure 8 is not one. If joining two ropes of different diameters then a sheith bend would be used.


nonick


May 4, 2004, 10:34 PM
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This is from

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/safety/train/skill_4.htm


Joining two ropes
For a long abseil where it is necessary to join two ropes a reliable knot must be used. Probable the most reliable is the double fisherman’s knot, but this can become jammed after an abseil. An alternative is an overhand knot but make sure the ends of the knot are long (you only want it to undo easily after you have completed the abseil).

--------------

I read of a case where this guy used a fig 8 to tie two ropes. It wasn't a fig. 8 woven, he tied two ropes together like you would tie a fig. 8 (not woven in). Needless to say he died.


cfnubbler


May 5, 2004, 6:26 AM
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The issue is the potential for getting the knot caught when it is pulled...and speed and ease of untying. Sometimes, speed is an important risk management factor.

Less chance of the knot snagging, sure...

But an increase in speed and ease in untying??? This is a total non-issue. I don't know about you, but I tie and untie my rap knot once in a descent. The speed advantage of the EDK is in that sense so trivial as to be irrelevent.

-Nubbler


brianinslc


May 5, 2004, 6:36 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
The issue is the potential for getting the knot caught when it is pulled...and speed and ease of untying. Sometimes, speed is an important risk management factor.

Less chance of the knot snagging, sure...

But an increase in speed and ease in untying??? This is a total non-issue. I don't know about you, but I tie and untie my rap knot once in a descent. The speed advantage of the EDK is in that sense so trivial as to be irrelevent.

I'd disagree. Anything that's KISS when you're tired, the weather is bad, its dark...

There's plenty of times when I rappel multiple times in a day when I untie and retie my rap lines. And, if you're bailin' off an alpine climb in a thunderstorm, sometimes even seconds count.

"Speed and ease" DO count for something.

Brian in SLC


cfnubbler


May 5, 2004, 7:01 AM
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Anything that's KISS when you're tired, the weather is bad, its dark...

Agreed, but I wasn't commenting on simplicity. IMHO, speed and ease of untying is not in and of itself a compelling reason to choose one rap knot over another.

Personally, I use the EDK, but certainly not for that reason...the reduced chance of a snag is where truly significant time might be saved.

-Nubbler


keithlester
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I use the double sheet-bend, I appear to be the only one.
I like it because it works with two ropes with different handling characteristics, lies neatly, will take a really heavy load without locking, and unties very easily
My regular climbing partners mostly use the overhand, but it is a little harder to untie after being weighted.
I'd be curious to know if anybody else uses the double sheet-bend, and what experiences they have had with it. :roll:


keithlester
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I use the double sheet-bend, I appear to be the only one.
I like it because it works with two ropes with different handling characteristics, lies neatly, will take a really heavy load without locking, and unties very easily
My regular climbing partners mostly use the overhand, but it is a little harder to untie after being weighted.
I'd be curious to know if anybody else uses the double sheet-bend, and what experiences they have had with it. :roll:


Partner oldsalt


May 7, 2004, 7:41 AM
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A slight twist to the discussion here:

Since learning that the Figure 8 Rappel Device (not the knot) is not as safe as an ATC, I have always used the ATC. I have only done single pitch raps, so the issue of joining ropes has not come up while outdoors.

What rappel device are people using with joined ropes?


jt512


May 7, 2004, 8:33 AM
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In reply to:
A slight twist to the discussion here:

Since learning that the Figure 8 Rappel Device (not the knot) is not as safe as an ATC, I have always used the ATC. I have only done single pitch raps, so the issue of joining ropes has not come up while outdoors.

What rappel device are people using with joined ropes?

The same device you'd use for a one-rope rappel.

-Jay


Partner oldsalt


May 7, 2004, 11:13 AM
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The same device you'd use for a one-rope rappel.
Assume I'm rapping with my ATC, will the EDK pass through it?


jt512


May 7, 2004, 11:29 AM
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The same device you'd use for a one-rope rappel.
Assume I'm rapping with my ATC, will the EDK pass through it?

No, nor will it need to. When you tie two ropes together to rappel, the knot stays up at the anchors. The rope doesn't move, rather you rappel down the rope. When you get to the ground you unattach the rope from your ATC, and pull the rope down.

Have you confused rappelling with lowering? It's important to get the terminology straight. Miscommunication with your belayer about whether you intend to rappel or be lowered can be fatal.

-Jay


paulraphael


May 7, 2004, 11:49 AM
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For all the reasons cited, i've been using the edk exclusively for a while now. I don't want to get crazy and sell it to people as "completely safe," because nothing is, and also because the edk is a paritcularly sensitive knot. In other words, its safety is much more dependant on being tied correctly than most other knots. There are also a lot of ways to tie it incorrectly and unsafely (too loose, crossed strands, tails that are too short). Tests show that its strength varies a lot with factors like rope diameter, stiffness, wetness, knot quality, frozen/unfrozen, etc., also .... so be extra vigilant.

There are some knots being proposed as alternatives to the edk ... ones that share its advantages but that are more robust. Has anyone used either of these?
http://jost.gudelius.bei.t-online.de/spst.htm
(tests and analysis by Edelrid)


Partner oldsalt


May 9, 2004, 2:57 PM
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jt:

My mental image of the situation is a 2-pitch rap, or some situation where the rap device allows the knot to pass through it. I understand that the EDK will pass through a Figure-8, but will it pass through an ATC or GriGri?


dirtineye


May 9, 2004, 3:18 PM
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Well I'm not JT, but in multi pitch, with 60 meter ropes. you can rap 200 feet without having to pass a knot.

IF you need to pass a knot, then get the proper instruction on doing this. Te nutshell is one or prussiks, a backup knot and a controlled release friction knot along with a rappel backup.

See, it's complicated, you need to have someone who really knows how show this to you.

No, in 8.1 and up diam rope, a rappel rpe joining knot will not pass through an atc. Same fro a gri-gri on the correct diam ropes for a gri-gri


jt512


May 9, 2004, 3:26 PM
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In reply to:
jt:

My mental image of the situation is a 2-pitch rap, or some situation where the rap device allows the knot to pass through it. I understand that the EDK will pass through a Figure-8, but will it pass through an ATC or GriGri?

The knot will not go thru the ATC and certainly not a grigri. But my point is it doesn't have to, ever (OK, there's probably some exception to this in aid climbing or rescue work), but to do a multipitch rappel you don't pass the knot. You tie the knot at the anchor, and attach your rappel device below the knot. This gets you 200 feet down with 2 60-m ropes. If that doesn't get you to the ground. You rig another rappel anchor at the bottom of the first rappel, tie into it, pull your ropes, thread them through the new anchor, and rappel again. Repeat as necessary. No passing of knots is involved.

-Jay


coclimber26


May 9, 2004, 4:26 PM
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The EDK will NEVER in any situation have to pass through ANY belay device. the figure 8 does invert at lower loads than the overhand but the retraced 8 is acceptable for joining two ropes of different diameters as well as the doubble fishermans.


Partner oldsalt


May 12, 2004, 10:33 AM
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Thanks Curt, JT. I see what you mean.

btw: I don't do anything outdoors on my own that I haven't been checked out on by someone who knows what the heck they are doing. Excellent advice.


brianinslc


May 12, 2004, 11:33 AM
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In reply to:
The EDK will NEVER in any situation have to pass through ANY belay device. the figure 8 does invert at lower loads than the overhand but the retraced 8 is acceptable for joining two ropes of different diameters as well as the doubble fishermans.

EDK will pass right through a rescue 8, and even some of the larger standard figure 8's. Folks also use these to belay with upon occasion.

Can be a handy thing, in some situations.

-Brian in SLC


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