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sportster
Mar 16, 2004, 3:14 AM
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Im considered a minority, but that depends where I am. In the States most people dont realize im a minority until they get to know me.
Im wondering why is this an issue, I mean all my minority and non-minority climbing friends have never discussed this.
All we want to do is climb, have fun, and get better at it.
Live and let go
ED
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mreardon
Mar 16, 2004, 3:41 AM
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In reply to: Mike, Who was in charge of watching the n00bs tonight? Things are getting out of hand here. :lol: Curt
I thought it was yours?
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mreardon
Mar 16, 2004, 3:43 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: What a pointless, incoherent, rambling, contradictory article. An Italian climbing in the US is not a minority climber, likewise an American climbing in Italy is not a minority climber. I can't tell whether the author is homophobic or not; he makes statements to both effects. Where is this nonsense coming from anyway? What is the basis for making the claim that these are "the three most common fallacies stated by climbers"? Who said there are NO minority climbers? I couldnt of said it better myself...freaking nonsense...
Oh c'mon, you could have said it a little better.
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scientiffikk
Mar 16, 2004, 3:51 AM
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In reply to: Mike, Who was in charge of watching the n00bs tonight? Things are getting out of hand here. :lol: Curt
Hey Curt,
I am a noob to this site, sure, but why would one assume that that makes me a total noob? I've been climbing for 8 years, I would think that would move me out of the noob category, no? And why is it considered out of hand to give an honest opinion on an article? The author asked for feedback.
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rmiller
Mar 16, 2004, 5:45 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Mike, Who was in charge of watching the n00bs tonight? Things are getting out of hand here. :lol: Curt Hey Curt, I am a noob to this site, sure, but why would one assume that that makes me a total noob? I've been climbing for 8 years, I would think that would move me out of the noob category, no? And why is it considered out of hand to give an honest opinion on an article? The author asked for feedback.
Climbing for 8 years does not make one a non-noob.
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bumblie
Mar 16, 2004, 2:00 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: An Italian climbing in the US is not a minority climber, likewise an American climbing in Italy is not a minority climber. mi·nor·i·ty: 1. The smaller in number of two groups forming a whole. 2. A group or party having fewer than a controlling number of votes. 3. An ethnic, racial, religious, or other group having a distinctive presence within a society. 4. A group having little power or representation relative to other groups within a society. 5. A member of one of these groups. Webster's says: "you're a putz."
Scientiffikk,
You need to understand than mreardon likes to interchange definitions to support his overly dramatic, often absurd, weak arguments. He likes to use righteous indignation mixed with hostility to discourage his critics.
When you talk about minorities in this country, most people agree that this applies to people who actually live in this country. Technically, visiting Italians are in the minority, but to anyone with a lick of common sense, they're just visiting foreigners.
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mreardon
Mar 16, 2004, 3:48 PM
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I can remember an argument prior about minorities where Bumblie and others were claiming that there were no blacks climbing because of socioeconomic status. That's what prompted this satire and he's angry because I called him on it and proved he was wrong.
His response was to troll and trail me in every one of my posts and constantly lying and hating. I think he actually wants to havbe sex with me, but that catholic upbringing makes me too old for the younger boys he prefers.
I can take the slander, but it only shows you for what you are, incompetent to debate. And no one online has ever had the courage to be this way in person. Amazing what language the internet allows.
So weigh in with an opinion on the subject, or we might as well hijack this all the way to community. Either way is fine with me. :wink:
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bumblie
Mar 16, 2004, 4:29 PM
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In reply to: I can remember an argument prior about minorities where Bumblie and others were claiming that there were no blacks climbing because of socioeconomic status. That's what prompted this satire and he's angry because I called him on it and proved he was wrong.
Your arrogance clouds your ability to recall facts. I remember that thread. You posted up some absurd scenarios in an attempt to show that climbing was cheaper than playing hoops (among other sports). The funny thing was I agreed with your overall premise. It was your over the top examples I questioned. As expected, you responded with hostility... kinda like this thread
In reply to: His response was to troll and trail me in every one of my posts and constantly lying and hating. I think he actually wants to havbe sex with me, but that catholic upbringing makes me too old for the younger boys he prefers.
Again - that arrogance thing. And your tenuous relationship with facts.
In reply to: I can take the slander, but it only shows you for what you are, incompetent to debate.
Is it slander if it's true? I think I hit a nerve. Arrogant and thin-skinned.
Incompetent to debate? Really?
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scientiffikk
Mar 16, 2004, 7:28 PM
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I find it amusing that Mike refers to bumblie as incompetent to debate, when Mike resorted to name-calling and finger-pointing almost immediately. Mike, debating is not about trying to bully others into accepting your argument. I would be happy, and competent, to debate you, but I still don't understand the point of your logically flawed and poorly thought out article.
Post # 11
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roninthorne
Mar 16, 2004, 7:50 PM
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Fascinating- an article that was published with a comment box at the end, and which generated a grand total of two comments; one negative, one positive. Having generated no more interest than this with the standard commentary invitation (and from a "Featured Article", no less!), forward-thinking strategists apparently decided to start a thread about it in Forums, ostensibly to fish for responses to a rather poorly-written and rambling discourse on not much of anything....
Kind of like having a book-signing tour for a book that didn't really sell, isn't it?
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robmcc
Mar 16, 2004, 8:22 PM
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In reply to: I think you see the world the wrong way if it even occurs to you that you see minorities, or anything other than people climbing.
I sort of agree with that, even though it's completely unrealistic. Assuming we're talking ethnic or racial minorities, you can't help but hear about it even ifyou don't want to. Politicians playing the "race card", schools talking about racial balance, etc. You don't have to think those things are relevant (and I don't), but you can't help but hear the fact that some people, for whatever reason, do.
For me, I never really noticed until one day someone pointed out to me that non-Caucasian climbers are (I should say were, as this was a long time ago) a rarity. I thought about it and said, "Wow! I think you're right. I wonder why that is." And, having had it pointed out to me, I kept my eyes open for a while, and whatta you know, it was true! Not good, not bad, just an observation someone made that happened to be correct, at least at that time and place.
Sooo....that's all I get out of it. Seems to be true at least where I climb. Why? No idea. No one's advanced any ideas I find particularly plausible, either, so it just remains a bit of puzzling but ultimately irrelevant trivia.
Rob
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dbtex
Mar 16, 2004, 9:21 PM
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Gotta' second what robmcc, mostly "white" where I've climbed. Some Hispanic and Asian, I seem to notice that in the photos that get posted on this site as well. So maybe the better topic is- why do you think that is?
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sofakingcool
Mar 16, 2004, 10:28 PM
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I have to say , that I've not seen one African American since I begin climbing . I occasionaly see Spanish , and most often Asians . Granted , I have not been climbing a very long time . Obviously they are out there , but not in huge numbers . It was the same way when I played Ice Hockey .. I played for 8 years , and not just in a local league but on a travel team , and I can honestly say I encountered less than 5 African American players .. Who knows , there are probably a lot of factors . But if you start listing the most likely of them , a lot of people will get riled up . What I do know is , I am happy to climb with anyone who can give me a safe belay .
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dbtex
Mar 16, 2004, 10:54 PM
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In reply to: What I do know is , I am happy to climb with anyone who can give me a safe belay .
Amen!
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chupa
Mar 16, 2004, 10:56 PM
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I hate the term "African American" First of all, I'll start off by saying that I am black. I was watching a news story once by an American television news station. They were referring to the treatment of "African Americans" in Europe compared to the U.S. If that's the case, Africa has the greatest African American population on the planet. I bet they didn't even realize they were American at heart.
I should also point out, the reason you don't see many blacks climbing is because climbing is considered "stupid daredevil white man stuff" in a great part of the community. Kind of like snowboarding. OK. You all have fun in this discussion. Personally I have better things to do, better posts to read and more things to climb.
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robmcc
Mar 16, 2004, 11:10 PM
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In reply to: I should also point out, the reason you don't see many blacks climbing is because climbing is considered "stupid daredevil white man stuff" in a great part of the community.
That's kind of interesting. I still wonder if that's the root cause. Climbing's considered dangerous by just about every community. I can't tell you how much crap I've gotten from my parents (well, one of them) about how dangerous climbing is and how I shouldn't do it, I'm being irresponsible, etc. Feh. So, drop the "white" from your quote and you have the opinion of pretty much everyone. Well, and the "man" bit, because quite a few women climb.
Whateber. I'm pretty sure the rock doesn't care what any of us look like, or who our parents are.
That African American in Europe thing is pretty funny, though. I don't like the term either. Too contrived. Are people with dark skin from Jamaica African American? Are people with light skin from Africa African Americans? C'mon, say what you mean, people.
Rob
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indigo_nite
Mar 16, 2004, 11:32 PM
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my observations about minorities and climbing. I don't think climbing is a sport discriminating against gender or ethnicity. but I think climbing (especially gym memberships and trad climbing) requires above ave. income.
I'm asian and first-born and 1.5 (or 2nd) generation. my parents raised me on a work-a-holic ethic. I think in order to excel in climbing, you need time to invest. as immigrant offspring, you're socialized to pursue less risky pursuits (especially in jobs). sometimes, immigrant kids are expected to support their parents in old age or help support the family (siblings). so being a full-time dirtbag? that would be such a culture clash that I'd assume to be disowned in the process.
can minorities climb and climb hard? I have no doubts about it. but I think there are economic and cultural factors that present larger hurdles for some climbers than others.
should climbing be more accessible to a wider variety of people? media ads and movies like touching the void will also perk interest. gym owners would probably hope so. a win-win concept could be discounted after-school climbing gym programs including low-income adolescents.
that was a ramble. I'm being unproductive but it's a slow day. thanks for the catalyst article.
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mreardon
Mar 16, 2004, 11:39 PM
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In reply to: For me, I never really noticed until one day someone pointed out to me that non-Caucasian climbers are (I should say were, as this was a long time ago) a rarity. I thought about it and said, "Wow! I think you're right. I wonder why that is." And, having had it pointed out to me, I kept my eyes open for a while, and whatta you know, it was true! Not good, not bad, just an observation someone made that happened to be correct, at least at that time and place. Sooo....that's all I get out of it. Seems to be true at least where I climb. Why? No idea. No one's advanced any ideas I find particularly plausible, either, so it just remains a bit of puzzling but ultimately irrelevant trivia. Rob
You're right. It is amazingly irrelevant trivia, and in many cases appears to be true. A while ago, there was a heady pile of words that there were minimal to none regarding minorities on the rock. The problem was that most people equated "minorities" with being "black" which was absurd. Even more absurd was the rambling reasons for it.
Most stated it had something to do with how expensive rock climbing is. Ridiculous. Last I checked, all you needed was your hands, feet, and a rock to begin climbing - i.e. it doesn't cost anything. Even more ridiculous was that it was because of access. Apparently all minorities only live in the ghetto to many of these same morons. Must have watched too much Fox Reality TV or a late night episode of "Cops".
The real issue seems to be demographics. If you live in a primarily white area, you're likely to see more white folks no matter what you do. Of course even white folks have a certain minority aspect within. An Italian who doesn't understand the language would qualify. Don't believe me, try being an Irish kid in an Italian neighborhood and see if there isn't a difference. Skin color does not define the word "minority".
If you live in an area with asians, you're likely to see many asians. And I would think the same is true with black areas, but last I checked, Atlanta, St. Louis, and Detroit were not the hotbeds of climbing so of course there were likely to be less blacks on the rock.
The real shame is that this ignorance went too far to the point that there are a handful of folks that honestly believe this is strictly a white sport. In the end, I don't believe that, but then again, I live in Southern California where most of my climbing partners are asians, mexican and/or blacks. Then again, so is Southern California.
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mreardon
Mar 16, 2004, 11:47 PM
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In reply to: Fascinating- an article that was published with a comment box at the end, and which generated a grand total of two comments; one negative, one positive. Having generated no more interest than this with the standard commentary invitation (and from a "Featured Article", no less!), forward-thinking strategists apparently decided to start a thread about it in Forums, ostensibly to fish for responses to a rather poorly-written and rambling discourse on not much of anything.... Kind of like having a book-signing tour for a book that didn't really sell, isn't it?
The forum box in the front regarding this was done without my knowledge and I just found out about it today. The idea was for feedback on the column to help make better ones in the future and if possible, get some form of thought about the myth on minorities on the rock that some try to state as being true. That's why this is in "feedback" in case you missed it. But as usual to this site, there are always those who prefer to digress and hijack it into Community. I've even done that on occasion and am doing the same with some of the responses here. If that's how it ends, so be it. It's merely words on the internet, not a discourse that will decide the fate of the world.
As for not much about anything, feel free to contribute something of your own. Everyone is welcome. :D
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mreardon
Mar 16, 2004, 11:55 PM
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In reply to: I have to say , that I've not seen one African American since I begin climbing . I occasionaly see Spanish , and most often Asians . Granted , I have not been climbing a very long time . Obviously they are out there , but not in huge numbers . It was the same way when I played Ice Hockey .. I played for 8 years , and not just in a local league but on a travel team , and I can honestly say I encountered less than 5 African American players .. Who knows , there are probably a lot of factors . But if you start listing the most likely of them , a lot of people will get riled up . What I do know is , I am happy to climb with anyone who can give me a safe belay .
Hockey is a great analogy. That is definitely a white dominated sport. I thought climbing was too, until I started looking around. As I stated before, I'm in Southern California which may be why I don't see the sport as mostly white. Also, friends that climb around the world tell me that Japan is quite a hotbed of activity, as well as Thailand and other places. Presumeably those are mostly asian, and just maybe they wonder where all the other folks are? The same can be said of Spain, Italy, France (yes I know those are lighter skinned areas, but the premise is the same).
Anyone familiar with climbing in Africa? Haiti? Anything on the islands? Maybe we're too american-centric, or is this really like hockey?
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mreardon
Mar 16, 2004, 11:58 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I should also point out, the reason you don't see many blacks climbing is because climbing is considered "stupid daredevil white man stuff" in a great part of the community. That's kind of interesting. I still wonder if that's the root cause. Climbing's considered dangerous by just about every community.
I've handled more than one kid party at a climbing gym, and most parents are scared stiff about sending their kids to go "climbing". The impression is that it's scary and dangerous. But so's getting smacked by a 300 pound lineman. I can't imagine this actually being a serious reason for climbing to be considered a "white" sport.
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mreardon
Mar 17, 2004, 12:04 AM
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In reply to: Arrogant and thin-skinned. Incompetent to debate? Really?
Arrogant? Yes. Thin-skinned? Nope. Incompetent to debate? I'm still waiting for you to step into the ring. If your next one is just another lame personal attack (from the comfort of your keyboard) then I'll pass. I'll let the community members play that game with you. I've got a cheese grater that will be more fun to masturbate with.
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robmcc
Mar 17, 2004, 12:46 AM
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In reply to: my observations about minorities and climbing. I don't think climbing is a sport discriminating against gender or ethnicity. but I think climbing (especially gym memberships and trad climbing) requires above ave. income.
That's the argument I often hear. I don't buy it. I grew up in Baltimore. Lots of everyone lives there. Pick a race or ethnicity and odds are there are a bunch of 'em. I don't buy the above average income either. I started climbing when I was making a whopping $6.00 per hour. I accumulated a full trad rack while earning the princely sum of $8.00 per hour.
It's not money. Climbing just doesn't really cost that much. A few thousand for a trad rack that you can use for a few decades (less replacing the soft bits) is nothing compared to what people of all types spend on cars, houses, and these days, cell phone service, Internet, their movie collections, and countless other recreational pursuits. I don't know why this seems to be, but I am a little curious and all the answers I've heard so far seem inadequate or unlikely.
Rob
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bumblie
Mar 17, 2004, 12:32 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Arrogant and thin-skinned. Incompetent to debate? Really? Arrogant? Yes. Thin-skinned? Nope. Incompetent to debate? I'm still waiting for you to step into the ring. If your next one is just another lame personal attack (from the comfort of your keyboard) then I'll pass. I'll let the community members play that game with you. I've got a cheese grater that will be more fun to masturbate with.
A fine example of irony. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Or would hypocrisy be more apt? :roll:
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bumblie
Mar 17, 2004, 12:50 PM
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In reply to: A while ago, there was a heady pile of words that there were minimal to none regarding minorities on the rock. The problem was that most people equated "minorities" with being "black" which was absurd. Even more absurd was the rambling reasons for it. The real shame is that this ignorance went too far to the point that there are a handful of folks that honestly believe this is strictly a white sport. In the end, I don't believe that, but then again, I live in Southern California where most of my climbing partners are asians, mexican and/or blacks. Then again, so is Southern California.
Here is a fine example of making absurd statements to support a position. The "heady pile of words" referenced above had to do with a thread in which people were talking about the absence of blacks in climbing. Looking at the percentage of blacks in this country, as a group they are seriously underrepresented in the climbing community. How convenient to confuse "all" minorities versus blacks.
Although, in most areas in this country the majority of climbers are white, I don't think anyone has said this is "strictly a white sport".
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