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abock33


Mar 21, 2004, 9:59 PM
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What happened to the Lead falls on carabiners forum
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What happened to the forum about the guys that were taking lead falls on keychain carabiners. I've searched and searched and I can't find it. can anyone help


Partner rrrADAM


Mar 22, 2004, 4:12 AM
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Re: What happened to the Lead falls on carabiners forum [In reply to]
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We have people who are very new to climbing here, and it is not prudent to allow posts that describe very dangerous and unsafe actions up... It is not worth someone's life, so it was deleted.

I am also moving this to the Suggestions & Questions Forum.


Partner rrrADAM


Mar 22, 2004, 4:13 AM
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rrrADAM moved this thread [In reply to]
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rrrADAM moved this thread from General to Suggestions & Questions.


kunzie


Mar 22, 2004, 4:30 AM
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True, it wouldn't be exactly prudent, but somehow appealing in a darwinian sort of way... :P


iltripp


Mar 22, 2004, 5:48 AM
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Taking a lead fall on a keychain carabiner is certainly dumb, but I can think of dumber things I've read on this site (some of them given as real advice too). I don't see why it has to be deleted...

I'd like to see the results of these "tests". Let's bring the forum back out of oblivion and leave it there for all to read.


abock33


Mar 22, 2004, 6:01 AM
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Re: What happened to the Lead falls on carabiners forum [In reply to]
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I was infact impressed with the test results and wanted to know more about the actual equiptment that was used. It's strictly for informational purposes only. There is no way or any reason that Anyone should actually think that they could be used as a piece of pro. I just found it entertaining and wanted to know more. If it is to be deleted then who was the author of the thread. I will just ask him. That way anyone who actually thinks that using them might ahve been a good idea, won't know all the details


mesomorf


Mar 22, 2004, 7:04 AM
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Re: What happened to the Lead falls on carabiners forum [In reply to]
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In reply to:
...it is not prudent to allow posts that describe very dangerous and unsafe actions up... It is not worth someone's life, so it was deleted.

So where do you draw the line? E.g.

- use of tiblock to "protect" the leader while simulclimbing (known to shred ropes)

- simul-rappelling

- solo climbing with self belay

- solo climbing without belay

- climbing, period!

By censoring "unsafe" posts, aren't you implying that, if the post remains uncensored, it's guaranteed by rc.com management to be advocating a safe technique?


drkodos


Mar 22, 2004, 7:05 AM
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Re: What happened to the Lead falls on carabiners forum [In reply to]
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What about Free soloing?


jkarns


Mar 22, 2004, 7:29 AM
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In reply to:
By censoring "unsafe" posts, aren't you implying that, if the post remains uncensored, it's guaranteed by rc.com management to be advocating a safe technique?

This is an excellent point!!! I remember when I was in college, my outdoor group decided to put a (real) bulliten board up on our campus for people to look for partners to do stuff, sell equipment, etc. We were told by the university's attorneys that the baord needed to be unmonitored. In other words, if we were pulling any posts that we felt were unsafe, we were creating a legal situation that we have implied that everything left up was safe. If someone got injured through something from the board, they would have grounds to sue. Therefore we were seriously told that we could not monitor the board for safety concerns. I'd bet the same arguement could be made for online bulliten boards...


usaclimbing


Mar 22, 2004, 7:35 AM
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OMFG... that is so stupid... "there are new climbers here and we dont want them to think that is safe" thats about the lamest thing i've read on this chuffer site. they all say: "not for climbing" or "not load bearing" if someone is still stupid enough to ACTUALLY use them for climbing then they deserve what happens to them.

on a legal note (and i'm not laywer)... it seems like a bad idea to censor "unsafe" information. you then become required, it would seem, to censor ALL "unsafe" information (something that is very subjective and I doubt any of you are experts on) as if something is left up, and someone does it they could potentally turn around and sue: "i read it on the forum and it was left up so i figured it must not be dangerous"

just my thoughts though


j-tha-b
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Mar 22, 2004, 7:41 AM
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yeah what everyone else said. GOD i am so infuriated by all of this nonsense. you all should be put in time out.


iltripp


Mar 22, 2004, 8:40 AM
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Bring back the thread!!!!!!

Censoring this kind of thing as unsafe is completely ridiculous given the mountain of controversial and unsafe (mis)information on this site.

I think the readers here are intelligent enough not to use biners marked (not for climbing), not to mention the fact that the stupidity of taking lead falls on keychain biners is probably repeated throughout the thread, giving more than sufficient warning.

I can think of numerous threads here that should be deleted for similar reasons, so why one that is so obviously unsafe.


Partner rrrADAM


Mar 22, 2004, 8:44 AM
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Re: What happened to the Lead falls on carabiners forum [In reply to]
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Find something else to bitch about people... I'm not gonna leave a post up that infers that cfalling on key chains is safe. Get over it.

Look for something else to whine about, like maybe some of the bolting bans, access issues, or the new camping fees in JTree. You really could put your bitching to much better use, than bitch about the deletion of a thread that implies that climbing on key chains is safe.

Sheesh. :roll:


mesomorf


Mar 22, 2004, 9:05 AM
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The question is no longer "why did you delete thread X?"

The question is "by saying THIS post may remain, while THAT post may not, are you not endorsing techniques in THIS post?"

And are you not making yourself liable by doing so?

Though I also think it's fair to ask, what criteria do you use in deciding THIS post is OK while THAT one is not?


jkarns


Mar 22, 2004, 9:25 AM
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In reply to:
The question is no longer "why did you delete thread X?"

The question is "by saying THIS post may remain, while THAT post may not, are you not endorsing techniques in THIS post?"

And are you not making yourself liable by doing so?

Though I also think it's fair to ask, what criteria do you use in deciding THIS post is OK while THAT one is not?

I agree!!

And, Adam, I would like to see this issue addressed by the moderators of this site. You may think that you're doing a good thing by censoring unsafe material, but you have just created a situation where you are acting as an "authority" on climbing safety techniques. The results of someone getting injured using a technique that you have approved simply by not censoring ( because now you have established a precident of censoring unsafe techniques) may be very costly.


aarong


Mar 22, 2004, 9:25 AM
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Shit....you can't say bitch on this board?


Partner rrrADAM


Mar 22, 2004, 9:36 AM
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As the TOS states...

"...if you feel you have been unfairly moderated, please contact a member of the Staff via Private Message..." Like I said, the author had no issue with it being removed and understood.


I will post a link to this thread in the Moderators & Editors Forum for discussion, and if they agree by majority that it should not have been removed it will come back.


Fair enough ???


Partner rrrADAM


Mar 22, 2004, 11:03 AM
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Currently the votes are:

2 for stay deleted
2 for bring it back


jkarns


Mar 22, 2004, 11:13 AM
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rrrAdam--

I don't understand why you don't understand!!! I'm not talking about a keychain here, I'm talking about the legal issues of censoring safety information, and I think that you're walking a very fine line! That's why I started a new thread because what I want to discuss is much larger than "What happened to the Lead falls on carabiners forum", the topic of this thread. I'm sorry, but I was not aware that I am not allowed to start a different but related thread. That never happens on rc.com!!!

I don't particularly care how monitors vote either. Personally I feel that safety issues should not be censored, both to keep you folks out of legal trouble and to freely share information including the stupid and controversial. You have yet to discuss the specifics of any of my posts and instead make to false assumption that I really just want to read about boneheads falling on keychains. I don't. You have inadvertantly established yourself as a source for safe climbing information, and I don't really think that your precious TOS will save your ass.

So now I do feel I've been unfairly moderated! Who do I send that PM to exactly???


Partner rrrADAM


Mar 22, 2004, 11:21 AM
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Phil (philbox), Amber (amber_chk), and/or Kate (katydid) since I'm sure you don't want to send one to me.

You are looking for a black and white rule, and there is none... Big difference bewteen "mark the middle of your rope with a knife" and "key chain biners held many lead falls as per my physical experiments".

If I delete a post about killing the prez, it does not "establish me as part of the Secret Service." I deleted what I viewed as a thread that could be misconstrued by a n00b how may hurt himself if he tried it. I am human, and I may be outvoted in regards to it... So be it.

You are asking me to quantify something that is in a gray area. I'm not gonna get into splitting hairs with "what if's".


jkarns


Mar 22, 2004, 11:27 AM
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No, rrrAdam, once again you're incorrect. I'm not looking for an edict handed down from on high. I'm looking for a discussion about a topic that is reflected in the title of the thread. You seem for some reason unwilling to allow me to have that discussion and unwilling to contribute. Why will you not share your thoughts on the multiple posts from different users shareing the same sentiments as me? Why will you not recognize that I am interested in something bigger than carabiner keychains? Why will you not let me explore other people's opinions concerning an unfortunate quark of our legal system that, like it or not, applies to this site? It seems like a relevant and interesting topic to me!!


Partner rrrADAM


Mar 22, 2004, 11:29 AM
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Fair enough... I'll unlock it then. It's just not worth going back and forth.


Partner rrrADAM


Mar 22, 2004, 11:35 AM
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Now I gotta reply in two seperate threads about the same thing, right ???

OK....

Also of note... There is no law that would hold us liable for safety of another climber, as there are disclaimers on the site. It is however ETHICAL and MORAL to remove items that are posted that encourage unsafe behavior.


dorkmaster


Mar 22, 2004, 12:30 PM
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Technically....you are correct, however, with our wacked legal system, people sue for the littlist things (the mic-e-d's coffee incident...), and since you are censoring unsafe posts...you are setting a precedent that you will any material left un-censored is infact safe. Therefore, should someone become injured, they could make a case and sue. I certainly HOPE no climber would do this, but they could.
In reply to:
And our last bit of legal ...
Rockclimbing.com is not responsible for messages posted on the Rockclimbing.com Forums or the content therein. Unless expressly stated otherwise, this includes messages posted by Rockclimbing.com personnel, representatives, moderators, administrators, and their agents by proxy.

You use the site and the information contained within it at your own risk. Climbing is a sport where you can be killed, maimed, or crippled even if you do everything right. Proper technique and experience may limit the risks involved, and you are advised to seek professional instruction prior to attempting the activities depicted and discussed on the site. You must accept these risks of your own volition, and we make no warranty that anything on the site is fit for the purpose of instruction, guidance, or consumption. Everything on this site could be completely, dangerously wrong. We cannot accept liability for your actions should you choose to rely on the information which users have contributed to the site. Caveat lector.
In your TOS you state that people may be injured or killed using the information, I understand that morrally you would be appalled if anyone was hurt by doing something dumb that was posted, but honestly, because the TOS makes sure you are un-responsable for any injury occured, why remove it? I also realize that the TOS says,
In reply to:
These are publicly visible forums; please act as you would in a public place. What precisely is 'questionable' enough to be removed is left to the discretion of the individual moderators, but may include any material that is knowingly false and/or defamatory, misleading, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, pornographic, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, illegal, or overtly destructive. In a nutshell... If it couldn't go on a public library's community bulletin board, then it shouldn't go here

Please, leave it to the other users to call the person a certifiable moron (the poster of false info). I urge you not to create the precedence for a lawsuit, because if you continue to edit info that could be fatal (IE Clipping keychain biners) and someone gets hurt using another method that was not taken out, they can and very well might sue, they might not win, but they can sue. Another solution might be to update the TOS by adding in "Mods may remove some posts that could prove fatal to people reading them that use the information, however, they may not remove other dangerous posts, so use your descretion."...or something like that. I hope you take the time to read this and think about what we the community is trying to tell you.


mattdog


Mar 22, 2004, 12:32 PM
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Adam,

Do you ever feel like you're playing daddy to a bunch of kids? Its like sitting in the front yard, whatching your kids play near the street. Every second they get closer and closer until finally you yell at them to get out before they get hit by a car.

Then they get mad at you, and start asking questions like, "Well, how close is too close? Can I play near the sidewalk? What if my ball goes out in the street? Can I go get it? I'm 6 years old, I can look both ways before crossing. Mommy said we could go out there yesterday...."

Next thing you know, they're back out in the street.

So then you say that they're not allowed to play in the front yard anymore, just to keep em safe and sound. And they, for the life of them, can't remember why you're such a jerk of a dad that you won't let your own kids play in the front yard.


Partner rrrADAM


Mar 22, 2004, 1:19 PM
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3 for and 3 against... Still even.


mackavus


Mar 22, 2004, 1:23 PM
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This is a praise post to just about everyone in this topic.

Usually I will use all my will power not to post in most of the forums on this site for a simple reason: most of these topics, even the silly ones have good intentions however only seem to last 3 or 4 posts on average before they are taken of by morons and then the bitch-fests start. I cant seem to bring myself to post anywhere sometimes because I refuse to take part in the stupidity.

However, everyone in here seems to have a brain, and although this is an argument, it is a really good one with wicked good points from both sides. A full on debate and you guys still remain to sound smart. :P Kudos to all.

Peace.


delarig


Mar 22, 2004, 1:44 PM
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CLIMBING IS UNSAFE BEHAVIOR - DELETE EVERYTHING


robmcc


Mar 22, 2004, 2:07 PM
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In reply to:
3 for and 3 against... Still even.

Yikes. There should be 6 in favor of getting a qualified legal opinion. IMO, you're on dicey ground deciding what's safe and what's not. I'd feel a lot better if I were you just disclaiming any responsibility for the content of the posts. Now it looks like you're policing them to make sure the advice given is "safe". Ok, free soloing I go! I'm leaving directions for my survivors to sue you. :P

Rob


usaclimbing


Mar 22, 2004, 2:26 PM
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In reply to:
Find something else to b---- about people... I'm not gonna leave a post up that infers that cfalling on key chains is safe. Get over it.

Look for something else to whine about, like maybe some of the bolting bans, access issues, or the new camping fees in JTree. You really could put your b---- to much better use, than b---- about the deletion of a thread that implies that climbing on key chains is safe.

Sheesh. :roll:

i would then like to point out several safety concerns, any thread dealing with these issues should be deleted ASAP:

Several items currently on sale in local climbing stores around the world do not meet current CE standard and thus maybe not be safe to climb on:

any thread related to the use of these is potentially supplying dangerous information to "newby noob" climbings:

oval carabiners,
many ropes (do not meet current CE standards),
the use of a gri-gri for ascending (not approved by man)
gribs ascender for rope soling.
and many other things i dont care to try and remember at the moment.

actually i believe the discussion of any gear or safety technique should be banned as there is no way to make sure those posting it are an authority on the topic and that the advice given is 100% correct.

GET OVER IT, he wasn't saying that key chain carabiners were safe to use, but rather that they were stronger than he thought. he conduction a somewhat scientific experiment and posted the results online. does this mean that the next chem lab i do would be innapporiate to post online as someone could potentially kill themselves by trying to conduct themselves?


Partner rrrADAM


Mar 22, 2004, 2:32 PM
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:lol:

You even quoted this...

In reply to:
Look for something else to whine about, like maybe some of the bolting bans, access issues, or the new camping fees in JTree. You really could put your b---- to much better use, than b---- about the deletion of a thread that implies that climbing on key chains is safe.


You really should put your b!thcing energy into something a bit more worthwhile. :lol:


Votes are:
4 for remove
3 for bring back


abock33


Mar 22, 2004, 3:13 PM
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Holy crap!!! I didn't want to start a baddle over Safe and Unsafe climbing advice. All I wanted to know was where it went. Personally I thought it was a good thread. I know that the use of gear not roted for climbing is very dangerous, I was just trying to find out more details on the subject. rrrADAM, I apoligise for any trouble I caused.

If it has to be deleted then it is to be.

But if you're taking votes then add another one to bring it back.

Andrew


Partner rrrADAM


Mar 22, 2004, 3:29 PM
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No worries... Some just like a good controvercy.

Current votes (among the Mods & Admins) as asked for:
5 for removal
3 for bring it back


bsignorelli


Mar 22, 2004, 3:38 PM
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In reply to:
By censoring "unsafe" posts, aren't you implying that, if the post remains uncensored, it's guaranteed by rc.com management to be advocating a safe technique?

That is what the hiking/backpacking club I was in discovered.

We had started to 'qualify' people to go on long hikes out of state. The goal was to weed our n00bs who we felt wouldn't be comfortable hiking XX miles per day at altitude over many PUDS (pointless up and downs).

Several members (2 lawyers and a judge) decided to look into the issue and their opinion was that by 'qualifying' people to go on a hike (ie we think YOU have he ability to do this hike safely) we were setting ourselve up.

What happens if someone gets hurt?

We qualified them as ok to go so they shoulda been ok. But they weren't.

So the advice we were given was to not qualify people based on what we percieved their abilites to be.

The went on to add that a lot of "advice" a trip leader might give (how much water to bring, food to bring, etc) would put that person in the position of authority and if the advice proved faulty (not enough water for the person who you gave advice to) then the trip leader may be held accountable for that since they were setting themselves up to the the authority on that hike.



I have also heard that the owners of a computer message system would have a hard time being held accountable for stuff posted to teh message board if they don't have a policy of weeding out "bad" info. But if the board starts to weed out bad info (ie unsafe climbing advice) then they have set themselves up to be an authority of "good info" (ie safe practices).

So the comments about taking out the humerous keychain biner thread while leaving other "unsafe" info (solo anything, using gear as the manufacturer never intended, etc) standing says that RC.com thinks those other unsafe practices are OK.

And the disclaimer on this website is total bunk until it goes to court. Yes climbing is dangerous. But if someone gets hurt after reading a post on how to Free Solo that they read on RC.com that may create some liability since by leaving the Free Solo post up (after taking down other unsafe info) RC.com has potentially "endorsed" that activity.

Anyways, IANAL so pay no attention to me...

Bryan


veganboyjosh


Mar 22, 2004, 3:40 PM
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Re: What happened to the Lead falls on carabiners forum [In reply to]
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count me in for bring it back.
not only does deleting the post make you semiquasisortamaybe responsible for the posts that remain, by extension/default you are endorsing them as not unsafe, but it also deletes important "how not to climb" info for some people who may not know better.
if you begin to delete information that you feel denoptes unsafe climbing or otherwise behavior, then we do not have access to that.
i'm not saying i'm gonna go and lead fall on a keychain, but wouldn't a better approach be to state your position as a moderator, and state how unsafe you think the practice is? it's pretty obvious that (even marginally) stupd or unsafe practices are pointed out by numerous posters and moderators, making it clear to anyone that at least some people think this thing (keychain climbing, sharpies on rope, bolt sizes etc) is some degree of unsafe, or not the best way to do things.
don't delete unsafe or questionable posts, just point them out as unsafe or questionable. maybe even a whole other board...? you could put all the threads about stupid behavior into that board, and then to access that board, there was this extra disclaimer or something.
whatever, i feel that more information is better.


caughtinside


Mar 22, 2004, 3:42 PM
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I thought the original post was amusing, and not really that dangerous. Come on, 10 foot falls onto a junk carabiner, with another draw 3 feet away?

What's next, telling people not to sport climb unless they know the history of every bolt on every route?

These guys were bored and conducted a safe experiment in a controlled environment. No big deal.


abock33


Mar 22, 2004, 4:39 PM
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In reply to:
I thought the original post was amusing, and not really that dangerous. Come on, 10 foot falls onto a junk carabiner, with another draw 3 feet away?

and then he said

In reply to:
These guys were bored and conducted a safe experiment in a controlled environment. No big deal.


I totally agree. Besides even if the biner did break it would be just like falling while missing a clip.

Instead of deleting it completely why don't you just add it to the archives and slap a !For Entertainment Purpose Only! title on it. That way anyone who wants to view it knows that it isn't climbing advice.

My guess is that there are alot of threads that go through this. So why not make a Forum strictly for threads like the one I was wondering about. That would solve most of the problems.

you could even put a disclaimer at the top to cover the site's Butt.


pk


Mar 22, 2004, 4:51 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I thought the original post was amusing, and not really that dangerous. Come on, 10 foot falls onto a junk carabiner, with another draw 3 feet away?

and then he said

In reply to:
These guys were bored and conducted a safe experiment in a controlled environment. No big deal.


I totally agree. Besides even if the biner did break it would be just like falling while missing a clip.

Instead of deleting it completely why don't you just add it to the archives and slap a !For Entertainment Purpose Only! title on it. That way anyone who wants to view it knows that it isn't climbing advice.

My guess is that there are alot of threads that go through this. So why not make a Forum strictly for threads like the one I was wondering about. That would solve most of the problems.

you could even put a disclaimer at the top to cover the site's Butt.

I'm going to conduct a completely safe test and I need 4 volunteers. First volunteer will be hit by a car at 5 miles an hour next at 10 etc up to 20 miles an hour.

Now this is a completely safe test in a controlled environment just for entertainment, would you like to join in on my tests?

P.K.


caughtinside


Mar 22, 2004, 4:59 PM
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pk, if you can't tell the difference between falling 10 feet +3 more onto good gear, and being hit by a car, I can't explain it to you. :P


fracture


Mar 22, 2004, 5:31 PM
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If it's up to a vote, how about making a poll? "Should RC.COM moderators remove posts which might advocate an unsafe practice?" I predict that the "Fuck no!" option wins in a landslide.

I definitely vote bring it back. This sort of censorship---based on the idea of protecting people from themselves--is simply retarded. If someone wants to replace all their draws with keychain karabiners that say "NOT FOR CLIMBING" right on the side, just because of something they read from a single individual's post on this site, then they deserve to get hurt.


Partner rrrADAM


Mar 22, 2004, 5:43 PM
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Re: What happened to the Lead falls on carabiners forum [In reply to]
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For those too lazy to read the entire thread...

It was asked that the Staff (Moderators & Admins) discuss it, so those are the votes being shown. Gotta figure that they are at least willing to read the entire thread before casting their vote, unlike some in here... If you had read the entire thread you would have realized that. :roll:


BTW... Votes now are:
6 delete
3 bring back


You may also wish to read the replies in the "legal..." thread in this same forum about this, as it was replied to by our resident attorney... Very funny as well as insightfull. :lol:


moabbeth


Mar 22, 2004, 5:54 PM
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Adam - it should be brought if for only this one reason.....

It was a brilliant entry for the Gumby of the Year nominations thread that's going on over in community. Without idea's like his, where would all the fun in that thread come from :roll: :P ?

And fyi....if any newbie is REALLY that clueless that they see one poster put something stupid like that up, watch 90 pct of the following posts tell him how idiotic and dangerous it is, and said newbie STILL thinks it's something he wants to try, then that person is gonna be meeting an early demise one way or another without our having anything to do with it. Darwinism at work. That newb will probably end up having more interest in hanging with the guys who think backclipping was a really great idea (another great GOTY nominee!! :lol: :lol: ).

And just my 2 cents, I think the mods voting for removal are treading very lightly when trying to babysit new people here. I give newer climbers a lot more credit for reading and realizing what's laughable horseplop and what's real and safe. Hell, I was a newer climber when I started on this site and I'm still alive :roll: .


Partner rrrADAM


Mar 22, 2004, 5:59 PM
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7 delete
4 bring it back


Beth, as stated above... I agreed to allow the Staff to discuss bringing it back. This was the compromise met. Either way it goes, we will not make everybidy happy.

Also as stated, while I use the Darwin phrase often, it is all fun and games till someone gets hurt. Nobody deserves to get hurt or die, even if they are stupid.



Please... If anyone wants to reply, do so, but at least do so informed by taking the time to read all of the replies in both threads so we don't have to repeat ourselves for those who don't want to take the time to read. Fair enough ???


Partner rrrADAM


Mar 22, 2004, 6:04 PM
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I also think Mike Reardon's post in the "Legal issues..." thread started about this one, is a must read. :lol:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=55516&postdays=0&postorder=asc&topic_view=&start=45


moabbeth


Mar 22, 2004, 6:16 PM
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In reply to:

Also as stated, while I use the Darwin phrase often, it is all fun and games till someone gets hurt. Nobody deserves to get hurt or die, even if they are stupid.

Yeah, but if someone is so stupid as to read that thread and all of the negative comments that followed and STILL think the one original guy was right, he's gonna be buying it early on without any of our assistance.

Hey mods, think of it from THIS perspective:

Some of the BEST and most useful safety information I've seen put on this site comes 80% of the time from the initally stupid gumby posts. Safe, talented climbers who know what they're doing come along with enough facts and information that I end up learning something SAFE in the reaction posts from every gumbaloid thread. So believe it or not, they are a blessing in disguise. If someone is SO stupid as to look and see someone like John Long chime in about why backclipping is a BAD thing and read his explanation why and still think "hey, I think backclipping sounds like a great idea".....you cannot save some people from themselves. :evil:


Partner rrrADAM


Mar 22, 2004, 6:19 PM
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Good point Beth. And in a perfect world where everyone reads all the replies in a thread, that would work, and I would never even think of removing it.

Would it be a fair statement that since some of the "enlightened" people who have replied to this thread have failed to read all of the replies, that it would also hold true that many of the less enlightened n00bs would also fail to read all of said threads ???


This is not a perfect world.


abock33


Mar 23, 2004, 1:30 AM
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In reply to:
I'm going to conduct a completely safe test and I need 4 volunteers. First volunteer will be hit by a car at 5 miles an hour next at 10 etc up to 20 miles an hour.

Now this is a completely safe test in a controlled environment just for entertainment, would you like to join in on my tests?

P.K.

Gladley as long as I'm driving :lol:


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