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murf
Apr 1, 2004, 5:57 PM
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In reply to: Here the thing, I am increasingly running into people willing to jump on a 5.8/5.9 climb and claim they know how to place pro after thinking about it. I'm not saying this guy did that, but people do, people around me do . . . that's horrific. It took the founders of modern climber a lot longer to attempt that kind of stuff, and they REALLY had to think it through. Cam placement may be intuitive, but I have still seen them pop or get placed incorrectly. All of it, ALL OF IT is serious business.
Of course all of it is serious business, but a comparison of the "founders of modern climber (sic)" and the beginners of today is a false analogy. First off which founders; the ones with hemp ropes, with swami's, with Fire's, the ones with the original friends, with C4, with wire gates? I started on 5.7's and 5.8's, and trust me, I ain't that cool ( easy target kids, fire at will ). Keeping in mind you couldn't pay me to get on most 5.5's at JT.
In any case, most miss the point. There is no relation between the grade of a climb, how long a person has been climbing, and the ability of that person to place gear on the climb. Assume I'm as strong as Tony Yaniro, and I can hang off a hand jam for a hour with no feet. Whether I have been climbing 1 month or 10 years doesn't dictate whether I should get on 5.4, 5.9, or 5.11 for that matter.
The issue is more the nitty gritty; length of climb, rope drag, sit in the crux and place pro or run it out, can you handle the 60' of unprotected 5.2, etc. Sitting at the base of a rock practicing your placements or aiding some C -1 crack isn't going to help you. That's the easy part, I can teach an smart person %80 percent of gear placement in 2 hours. Them screwing around for another hour of two and placement of gear in the rock should no longer be the issue.
In any case, I think that your last point is the one with the most bite. That is, it is serious business. Its easy to place a cam correctly, and its easy to place a cam poorly, take it seriously and place it correctly. In general, I think its a mental image of pro as "magic", place it and it will hold that is at fault with many people( IMHO, YMMV, etc and so forth ).
Murf
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madmax
Apr 1, 2004, 5:58 PM
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In reply to: Trad gear does blow. You are right in stating it is usually from a bad placement. Sometimes that's all you get. Who here hasn't had a trad piece pop on them at least once? If you say no, I doubt you have been doing trad for long.
I have been seriously trad climbing for about four years, I lead 5.11+ trad fairly comfortably, I've taken thirty footers onto small pieces, and I've never had a piece pull. As several other poster have stated, a piece pulling is 99.9% pilot error. When I do place a marginal piece, fear of falling on it usually keeps me from falling.
Anyways, please keep you saftey-conscious-learn-to-lead-with-an-experienced-climber babble to yourselves.
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gajeff420
Apr 1, 2004, 6:22 PM
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When I first learned to trad (I am still and ALWAYS learning), my buddy took me to an easy sport route with good places for pro. As I would get to a bolt I would clip in and then a few feet higher place my first cam and so on. I know sport takes a bashing here but I found it much more comfortable to know that even if I popped a piece I still had the bolt to catch me. After doing this for a while I would start to bypass the bolts till eventually I was climbing with only the gear I had placed.
For me learning trad was scary as hell. Trusting your placements when you first start is difficult. The not knowing what will happen if you fall, will the piece hold me, etc.. For me having the bolts in the beginning was very helpful and educational. For example, on my third time up the route I fell pretty hard and sure enough a piece popped. The bolt held me and I was thankful for it as I had been too anxoius to suceed. The nice thing about the bolt was after the piece popped and after I checked my pants for any additional climbers, my partner was able to look at me and ask me what I did wrong. Without the bolt, talking and possibly walking would have been real difficult. Using the bolts as saftey backup stepping stones made the learning experience fun and the learning curve a bit smaller.
This is just a thought and I hope I did not piss anyone off. I like this place.
Jeff
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iclimbtoo
Apr 1, 2004, 6:26 PM
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I work at a climbing wall. We took a trip to Utah over spring break to show people what real climbing was like. My climbing bud and I were shocked...these plastic pulling noobs thought we meant we were going to let them loose on the rock and "slam all that cool junk in the rock". LOL...After my bud Jake and I did a 250 ft. 5.6 on Trad, and the people with us that wanted to watch saw how much time it took (I'm still working on sighting my pieces better too...lol) and how much more knowledge it required, most of them were scared away by trad climbing. I think people jump into it too blindly. The one's that aren't scared off see it a couple of times and like a little kid watching someone fly a plane, immediately think they can do it. Part of this is our responsibility as well. I think it is up to us if you see someone doing something God-awful wrong to call them on it in the name of safety, to instruct people who want to learn trad on everything they need to know, fall factor, shock force, etc. And I suggest starting them on sport...that's just my opinion though.
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tim
Apr 1, 2004, 7:04 PM
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In reply to: Re sport climbing: I was JOKING! Joking!!! GEEEZ.
re: Pinnacles: I wasn't!
Anyways, there are plenty of examples of solid climbers who bought the farm when they relied to heavily on one piece (or a few marginal pieces) to keep them off the deck. (Goran Kropp, Stephen Ross, Joe Palmer -- also a 5.11+ trad leader -- who died on Bev's Tower when all his gear pulled, etc.) Sometimes the safety nazis annoy me too, but I have chopped a rope in a leader fall (my fault, didn't extend the top piece), I have pulled down freestanding columns during ice season (also my fault, duh), and blown out plenty of small cam placements on aid (does it even need to be said?), so...
I take a lot of shit for putting in too many pieces, but my first injury was on a blade crack where a bunch of pins popped and I broke my finger. (Big deal, right? Well, it unsettled me.) This sport is objectively dangerous -- you can do everything right and still die. That said, however, the chances of dying are reduced (not eliminated) by placing a solid chain of gear. Being strong, or smart, or safe won't necessarily keep you from dying a grisly death, but it helps. Being inexperienced, weak, and dumb probably will get you dead sooner or later. (I'm waiting for the rebuttal to this last statement... eagerly)
nb. I have been climbing for about 8 years now, 6 of them on lead, and I've taken plenty of 20-30' lead falls on gear ranging from a #3 BD steel nut to a #5 Camalot. I am (currently) doing fine on most 5.10's at Josh (not 5.10+, just regular 5.10a,b,c) and I haven't sustained an injury on lead in 4 years. But I'm not going to compromise my safety for someone else's idea of how things should be. Dump the rack and free solo if you don't think that your gear placements or protection system matters. As far as pieces pulling on trad leads, I can't even remember the last time my top piece pulled -- maybe never. But that does not mean that I can't misjudge the rock around a placement. The examples I provided were experienced leaders who did exactly that. And died.
My comments about Pinnacles were only half-joking -- I hate that choss.
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murf
Apr 1, 2004, 8:48 PM
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In reply to: Being strong, or smart, or safe won't necessarily keep you from dying a grisly death, but it helps.
I’m not sure how being strong has anything to do with death, grisly or otherwise. If there was a correlation I suspect being stronger gets you into more trouble than not ( see weak below ).
Smart would seem to be a no brainer, but I wouldn’t want to overthink it.
Safe also seems like something that is always good. But safety can be counterintuitive. Can you think of less than safe practices which will make you more safe overall? I can.
In reply to: Being inexperienced, weak, and dumb probably will get you dead sooner or later. (I'm waiting for the rebuttal to this last statement... eagerly)
I’m uncertain that being inexperienced can be linked to getting deader. After all, I think everyone is inexperienced at the beginning, but again we’re all dead sooner or later. That being said, all the anecdotal evidence
I heard of always says that "medium experienced" climbers are the most at risk. You know the type, just over the curve from beginners, settling into the comfort zone. I say anecdotal 'cause I have nothing to back that up with.
Weak, much like strong, doesn’t seem to me to have a correlation to dead. Most climb “at their level”, which seems both “smart” and “safe” (see above). Climbing above your level seems dumb (see below).
Being dumb seems bad no matter what, unlike any of these others. Although, I have been the recipient of dumb luck on occasion, and never regretted it.
Murf
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timstich
Apr 1, 2004, 8:56 PM
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In reply to: 75% ??? I think if a piece fails, it is at least 95% pilot error.
It Depends (TM) On a flaring crack that won't take pro, there's a big ??? next to that equation. Of course, the more experienced leader will know that the placement is poo and climb accordingly. That's a big part of the whole pilot error deal. Hey wait. I agree with you. Never mind!
On on....
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keithlester
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Apr 1, 2004, 9:04 PM
Post #33 of 55
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In reply to: It Depends (TM) On a flaring crack that won't take pro, there's a big ??? next to that equation. Of course, the more experienced leader will know that the placement is poo and climb accordingly. That's a big part of the whole pilot error deal. Hey wait. I agree with you. Never mind! On on....
Hey Tim, was that a senior moment, I have them all the time now, sympathy man. It just gets worse but eventually you get so old you dont notice, then :cry: the age police try to lock you up in a retirement prison :cry:
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findingit
Apr 1, 2004, 9:11 PM
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the moral of the story:
noobs climbing and decking = more used and cheap gear on sale
me being a non decking semi-noob (so far) appreciates cheap gear with little mileage.
just hope they rack on shoulder slings so the cams aren't mangled under their boney asses when they hit.
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fredo
Apr 1, 2004, 9:17 PM
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In reply to: A guy decked at Pinnacles today doing a trad climb when his second piece popped. He was pretty well hurt, but I suspect he'll be fine. Over the past two weeks, I've been looking at some mighty bad trad pieces. I'm going to post this hoping some of you will listen. There's a reason there's the North American Mountaineering Accident reports. Problems happen for a reason. I've talked to a million people who have stopped trad climbing because a piece or two blew on them. You maybe leading on gear and you may think you know what you're doing, but get someone you respect to climb with you and see what they think. I firmly believe that when gear fails, at least 75% of the time, the climber was either on a route they had no business being on, or they were not proficient with gear placements. Don't let this happen to you.
Good Post to pour through. I climb with an older trad dude who has 25yrs under his swammi and I really appreciate the advice/guideance he passes my way. His advice, "The learning curve is steep for a reason, the consequences are injury or death, the rock will always be there" I've been climbing for 6 years and leading trad comfortably for 2 years now and have only "topped" 5.9. But for me it is about coming back another day. LAst summer I broke may ankle in a fall when the piece I just placed blew. I fiddle and farted till I got it in, It was horrible. I was in the middle of a self depricating rant about how stupid I was to flame out placing a marginal when I peeled. We rapped and my 56yr old partner humped me the 1/2 mile to the car on his back. Anyway not sure where this is going but to say that I agree with maculated. Keep it safe folks
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ricardol
Apr 1, 2004, 9:23 PM
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*sigh*
.. i guess climbing season is now in full swing . this is the 2nd accident i've heard about in the last 2 weeks .. (other accident could have been fatal, guy got lucky and survived) ..
regarding the apprenticeship/learning curve thread ..
... the way people climb today is no different that in the past .. some people apprenticeship for many years before getting on the sharp end .. other jump right on it .. (read Lynn Hill's book and find out how she found herself on the sharp end one fot he first few times she'd climbed .. on gear!) .
.. the difference is that MANY more people are begginning to climb -- so it many more people who dont have the ability to jump right into leading are getting hurt .. it just makes sense ..
.. natural selection if you ask me ..
.. if you're not sure of your abilities or capabilities .. find a mentor --
-- ricardo
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maculated
Apr 1, 2004, 9:38 PM
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The point, Ricardo, is that you may think you are sure of your abilities, but you might not be.
It's not about apprenticeship, etc. I still have not been educated in that way. BUT, climbing with people who I respect to judge my placements has taught me a lot. That's what the post is about. You think you know? You may not.
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timstich
Apr 1, 2004, 9:50 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: It Depends (TM) On a flaring crack that won't take pro, there's a big ??? next to that equation. Of course, the more experienced leader will know that the placement is poo and climb accordingly. That's a big part of the whole pilot error deal. Hey wait. I agree with you. Never mind! On on.... Hey Tim, was that a senior moment, I have them all the time now, sympathy man. It just gets worse but eventually you get so old you dont notice, then :cry: the age police try to lock you up in a retirement prison :cry:
No. A senior moment would be to escalate the discussion and start repeating what Adam said verbatim, claiming that he didn't actually say that.
"And another thing you crumb bumb!!!!!"
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harihari
Apr 1, 2004, 9:54 PM
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These are some really good points. I would add one thing (which I have had to work on). You get comfy, you get complacent. Lots of people climb bolts before gear, and naturally start on much easier gear routes than the sport routes (or routes in the gym) they have been doing. The danger is when a gear leader moves out of the initial "I am scared" phase and starts running it out on gear.
I have found that I have had to consciously MAKE myself put in gear that will keep me from decking when I am on gear routes that are well below my limit (as opposed to, say, runing it out until i get to the crux, and only then adding a few pieces). We all want to sew it up when it's hard, but the trick is, to prevent groundfall when it's easy. In my experience, falls happen first on descents (when people are tired and feel like the hardest stuff has been done), second when people are at their limit, and third, when people are on easy routes and they get careless.
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timstich
Apr 1, 2004, 9:55 PM
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In reply to: The point, Ricardo, is that you may think you are sure of your abilities, but you might not be. It's not about apprenticeship, etc. I still have not been educated in that way. BUT, climbing with people who I respect to judge my placements has taught me a lot. That's what the post is about. You think you know? You may not.
I know only too well exactly what you are talking about, Kristin. My friend had a reputation for knowing his stuff that was made over years of successful aid climbs. In the end, however, neither one of us knew squat. Turned out very badly. But we had isolated ourselves in a vacuum that did not permit the entrance of information. It was a large part due to psychological factors, including both of our personalities and relationship problems we were both having at the time. I've since talked it over with several other people who have had accidents, and it's chilling how big a factor your psychological outlook is when it comes to assessing whether or not you know what you are doing.
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crackboy
Apr 1, 2004, 10:11 PM
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the two facets i try to keep in mind when leading myself and if i take out others/new people
1. always keep two pieces between you and disaster
2. either push your limit or push your gear. Never do it at the same time
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timstich
Apr 1, 2004, 11:19 PM
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One of the unfortunate paradoxes of admitting to yourself that you don't know everything you might need to know is that it undermines your self confidence. You have to work that out.
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ricardol
Apr 2, 2004, 12:18 AM
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In reply to: The point, Ricardo, is that you may think you are sure of your abilities, but you might not be. It's not about apprenticeship, etc. I still have not been educated in that way. BUT, climbing with people who I respect to judge my placements has taught me a lot. That's what the post is about. You think you know? You may not.
.. its pretty black and white when it comes to this question ..
you either know you can do something or you dont know you can do it -- my advice was that if you had doubts about your capabilities to deal with a situation -- to not get into that situation while climbing ...
.. my rule of thumb is , if i'm not feeling sure that i can complete a climb, i dont tie into the sharp end .. and if i'm going up a multipitch climb, i have to be ready to lead all pitches in case my partner decides that he/she cant..
... if you are wrong .. you could get into some deep sh*t .. specially in climbing where the stakes are pretty high ..
.. i think its part of what draws alot of people to climbing (including me) .. the fact that you're staking your life in the decisions you make ..
.. some people think that its not the case at all -- that they climb safely, not risking their life .. they are missing the point .. -- you could die on any climb, everytime you go up there.
.. [re-reads post] -- but if all we're talking about is climbing with people who's opinions you respect and ask them to judge your placements .. i wholeheartedly agree .. i do the same .. i ask my partners to let me know which pieces were good, and which were bad .. and i give my partners my opinions when i think they've placed bunk gear..
-- ricardo
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mesomorf
Apr 2, 2004, 12:54 AM
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When I hear about someone who's had an accident, I try to give them the benefit of the doubt.
After all, how can you get experience without making a few mistakes along the way? That's what experience is.
There are a couple of crucial points though.
One is to take calculated risks. Otherwise the price can be more than you're willing to pay.
The other point is to be open-minded enough to learn from your mistakes.
Even old dinosaurs need to keep that one in mind.
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madmax
Apr 2, 2004, 4:01 PM
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.. some people think that its not the case at all -- that they climb safely, not risking their life .. they are missing the point .. -- you could die on any climb, everytime you go up there.
You could also die on any highway, everytime you get in your car.
Come on, climbing isn't really that dangerous. You sound like my mother. It's statements like the one above that give climbing the false mystic of danger. I mountain bike a lot as well, and I think mountain biking is just as dangerous if not more so then climbing. Racing along some single track that drops off a hundred feet on one side has a lot higher risk factor then leading your average climb.
Granted, I've taken a lot of risks climbing, but 99% of those risks did not involve my life, but rather just broken bones.
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madmax
Apr 2, 2004, 4:02 PM
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In reply to: some people think that its not the case at all -- that they climb safely, not risking their life .. they are missing the point .. -- you could die on any climb, everytime you go up there.
You could also die on any highway, everytime you get in your car.
Come on, climbing isn't really that dangerous. You sound like my mother. It's statements like the one above that give climbing the false mystic of danger. I mountain bike a lot as well, and I think mountain biking is just as dangerous if not more so then climbing. Racing along some single track that drops off a hundred feet on one side has a lot higher risk factor then leading your average climb.
Granted, I've taken a lot of risks climbing, but 99% of those risks did not involve my life, but rather just broken bones.
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brutusofwyde
Apr 4, 2004, 8:56 PM
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In reply to: Come on, climbing isn't really that dangerous. You sound like my mother. It's statements like the one above that give climbing the false mystic of danger.
Madmax -- do you know what IDLH means? It is an abreviation for a condition: Immediately Dangerous to Life and Health.
Climbing means entering, and living, in such an environment for hours -- sometimes weeks -- at a time.
It is much like walking into a room filled with chlorine gas, or carbon monoxide. Life support and safety equipment do not make the activity safe, rather they mitigate the danger. Forget this, and you will be looking at the underside of a closed casket lid, hearing organ music, quicker than you can say "But it was just a momentary loss of focus"!
To proclaim that climbing is not dangerous is disingenuous to say the least, and borders on bald-faced canard.
Sincerely,
Mom
In reply to: I mountain bike a lot as well, and I think mountain biking is just as dangerous if not more so then climbing. Racing along some single track that drops off a hundred feet on one side has a lot higher risk factor then leading your average climb.
I agree that mountain biking is potentially more dangerous than climbing, based on the number of serious injuries I have seen in both venues. I disagree that this comparison means that "climbing isn't really that dangerous"
In reply to: Granted, I've taken a lot of risks climbing, but 99% of those risks did not involve my life, but rather just broken bones.
Sounds like you never get much higher than 8-10 feet off the ground. Your climbing experience suggests otherwise.
Risk management is one of the many issues in the complex game we call climbing. Glad to hear you're doing it well. I once was of the opinion that "climbing isn't really that dangerous" as well. I have since come to the conclusion that this attitude, at least on my part, was arrogant self deception. Be careful out there.
Brutus of Wyde
Old Climbers' Home
Oakland, California
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madmax
Apr 4, 2004, 10:24 PM
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[quote="brutusofwyde"]In reply to: Come on, climbing isn't really that dangerous. You sound like my mother. It's statements like the one above that give climbing the false mystic of danger.
In reply to: Madmax -- do you know what IDLH means? It is an abreviation for a condition: Immediately Dangerous to Life and Health. Climbing means entering, and living, in such an environment for hours -- sometimes weeks -- at a time. It is much like walking into a room filled with chlorine gas, or carbon monoxide. Life support and safety equipment do not make the activity safe, rather they mitigate the danger. Forget this, and you will be looking at the underside of a closed casket lid, hearing organ music, quicker than you can say "But it was just a momentary loss of focus"! To proclaim that climbing is not dangerous is disingenuous to say the least, and borders on bald-faced canard. Sincerely, Mom
IDLH? Thanks, Mom. So where does the boundary between "immediate" and, for lack of a better word, omnipresent begin? I agree with you; walking into a room full of carbon monoxide is dangerous to your life. But you analogy between climbing and a room full of carbon monoxide doesn't hold up. The danger from carbon monoxide is not immediate, but rather it affects the brain over a long period of time. Long term exposure will kill you. You could argue that climbing is long term exposure to danger, and that everytime you go climbing you are endangering your health; but I don't agree that the exposure to danger is "immediate." Granted, a room full of carbon monoxide may kill you immediately; but that would only be analagous to climbing a pile of choss where none of gear will hold, the rope has core-shots, and your belayer is asleep. Yes, then the danger is immediate. It's not analagous, however, to an afternoon of clipping bolts at the local crag ("but the bolts could fail," I hear someone saying) or plugging in gear on perfect stone ("but the cam could pull," I hear someone else saying). Every time I tie into the sharp end, I don't quiver with terror from the immediate dangers of climbing. Where woud be the fun or sense in that? Granted, I've done dangerous things climbing, but those were calculated risks where I brought the danger closer to myself. The mere act of running it out over a questionable piece is not killing me; its the consequences that will. Unlike your analogy, where the mere act of walking into a room full of carbon monoxide will kill you.
How about this? I'll agree that climbing can be dangerous, but that the danger is more like a spectrum, rather then a line. Yes, you potentially can be hurt at any moment when climbing and you should be aware of that potential. But you also have to learn to judge the immediacy of that potential, and when, for example, you are topropping off of a bomber anchor at your local crag, recoginze that the potential is not very immediate ("the anchor could pull, or the crag could fall down," I hear a group of people saying). How about I qualify my remark, and say, the majority of climbing people do is not immediately dangerous to your life and health. I think my analogy between driving a car and climbing illustrates the dangers better.
In reply to: Sounds like you never get much higher than 8-10 feet off the ground.
As to your stab, 8-10 feet off the ground is on my mountain bike, on my way to getting to a climb that will take me a 1000 feet off the ground.
In reply to: Risk management is one of the many issues in the complex game we call climbing. Glad to hear you're doing it well. I once was of the opinion that "climbing isn't really that dangerous" as well. I have since come to the conclusion that this attitude, at least on my part, was arrogant self deception. Be careful out there.
I agree with you, Brutus, climbing is all about risk management. Climbing is about knowing yourself and your limits, knowing your gear and its limits, knowing the objective dangers, and taking calculated risks based on a synthesis of that knowledge.
Thanks for the concern, mommy Brutus.
P.S.
I just looked at your profile, and I'd say based on your aid experience, you probably put yourself into an environment of immediate danger more often then most climbers.
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brutusofwyde
Apr 4, 2004, 11:24 PM
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In reply to: IDLH? [snip] Granted, a room full of carbon monoxide may kill you immediately; but that would only be analagous to climbing a pile of choss where none of gear will hold, the rope has core-shots, and your belayer is asleep.
IDLH refers to concentrations of gasses which will kill you or incapacitate you immediately. Walking into a room with a 100% concentration of carbon monoxide will, in fact kill you unless you mitigate the hazard.
Analagous to climbing a pile o choss, none of the gear will hold, belayer asleep?
You illustrate my analogy far better than I could.
IDLH atmospheres WILL kill you. Unless you take appropriate safety precautions, that is to say, unless you mitigate the hazard. These mitigations include (for example): A-suit (aka "Moon Suit) with supplied air. Monitoring instruments that give instantaneous readout of the concentrations of the hazardous gas(ses). Entrant attendant, trained in both first aid and CPR, communicating with, and monitoring the condition and health of, the entrant. Another individual on-site, trained in rescue and with appropriate gear, able to effect a rescue if the entrant goes down. Entry procedures that assure all hazards have been mitigated before entry occurs.
These mitigations are exactly analogous to the kind of thing you and I as climbers do on a daily basis: from belay signals, to protection systems, to knowledge of self and partner rescue, to equipment checks, to inspection of anchors and assessment of the quality of the rock and other objective hazards.
The protection and procedures do not remove the danger (death from falling, death from inhalation of an atmosphere containing 0% oxygen and 100% chlorine rather than the usual 20.9 % oxygen and most of the rest Nitrogen) rather they mitigate the hazard to an acceptable level of risk.
In reply to: It's not analagous, however, to an afternoon of clipping bolts at the local crag ("but the bolts could fail," I hear someone saying) or plugging in gear on perfect stone ("but the cam could pull," I hear someone else saying).
Your failure scenarios, although they could happen in an afternoon of bolt clipping, are, I agree, unlikely. But how about: Lowering off with the belayer not tied in? Belayer standing too far from the base of the cliff, even though the rope should be long enough if s/he were right up against the rock? Or forgetting to complete that tie-in because you were too busy "air-climbing" the moves or talking to someone on the next route over? How 'bout these scenarios? Do any of them sound familiar? The should. Talk to Lynn Hill. Read ANAM. Look over those failure scenarios and tell me that being more than 20+ feet off the deck is not immediately dangerous to life and health.
In reply to: Every time I tie into the sharp end, I don't quiver with terror from the immediate dangers of climbing. Where woud be the fun or sense in that?
Nor do I. Agreed, sometimes, perhaps most of the time, that danger which you so casually dismiss is very easily mitigated: Simple buddy system check of knots and belay setup. Belayer tying into the end of the rope. simple equipment check. Self rescue and first aid knowledge. Should we quiver in fear? No. Not if we've mitigated the hazard. That's risk management. The hazard, death by falling, is just as present as that atmosphere of chlorine gas. Our systems, equipment, belayer, and mental focus are our "moon suit" that protect us from that "atmosphere."
In reply to: How about this? I'll agree that climbing can be dangerous, but that the danger is more like a spectrum, rather then a line. Yes, you potentially can be hurt at any moment when climbing and you should be aware of that potential. But you also have to learn to judge the immediacy of that potential
I fully agree that climbing and safety systems are not a black and white issue, and that the whole game is incredibly more complex than I've presented in my analogy. I have, for example, not even begun to address the issue of soloing, which most of us have done, either intentionally or inadvertently, at some time in our lives.
In reply to: How about I qualify my remark, and say, the majority of climbing people do is not immediately dangerous to your life and health.
I'll agree that the majority of us mitigate the hazard of entering that chlorine-filled room to the point where the risk is acceptable. But if I say the danger isn't there, I'm just fooling myself.
In reply to: As to your stab, 8-10 feet off the ground is on my mountain bike, on my way to getting to a climb that will take me a 1000 feet off the ground.
I figgered as much, having (prior to my last post) noted your activities in the Black and Red Rocks. Hope my above explaination of my analogy clears things up a bit.
In reply to: P.S. I just looked at your profile, and I'd say based on your aid experience, you probably put yourself into an environment of immediate danger more often then most climbers.
I think we all put ourselves into an environment immediately dangerous to life and health every time we cross that threshold where an unroped fall could kill us. I like to think that, most times, I mitigate that hazard to just as acceptable a level as the feller out clippin bolts at the local 80-foot cliff. Hopefully I'm not foolin' myself, and if I am, I hope ta gawd someone points it out to me.
Thanks for a great discussion!
Mom Brutus
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madmax
Apr 4, 2004, 11:31 PM
Post #50 of 55
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Registered: Oct 23, 2003
Posts: 354
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In reply to: Thanks for a great discussion! Mom Brutus
Agreed! I'm glad it didn't meltdown into a flaming fest.
Fondly,
"risktaker" madmax
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