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Partner rrrADAM


Apr 2, 2004, 12:15 PM
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I listed all the routes shown under your profile, which should be all routes you have ticked in the RDB.


Partner rrrADAM


Apr 2, 2004, 12:20 PM
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Dude... Checked just to make sure there wasn't a bug. This is a list of "all ascents by piton", as in all you have ticked in the RDB:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/ascent/index.php?UserID=piton

Yes, I see they are all this year, but that is all you have ticked... Sorry I cvan't list the rest, as I am not omnipitant brutha.


stuckintexas


Apr 2, 2004, 12:38 PM
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Well, since this topic has, err... entered the discussion :roll:

If the leader is setting their stoppers with the 'correct' amount of force, how often should the 2nd need* a nut tool to get them out? Never? 25% of the time? 75%?

*By 'need', I mean need a nut tool to clean the piece without risk of tweaking the wires.


tedc


Apr 2, 2004, 12:46 PM
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In reply to:
sure i can have a relevant argument, but when noobs like yourself jung only know how to read bits of info, it would be arguing with a brick wall.

What, this bit.
In reply to:
the deepest i can get it and set so it's hard to get out

As far as rules go; I thought of another one.
Don't say it if you don't mean it, and admit when you are WRONG.


reborne


Apr 2, 2004, 12:50 PM
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Ok one your a chuffer (evidenced by your whole i smoke and climb thing and of curse this thread), two sinoir Piton does more routes than he has in that list in a weekend those just happen to be his favorites,

Three think about it er er er adam, a thread called trad advice seem like a good place to put a line like, place your gear shallow so your second can get it out, or drive home alone!
picture some new leader reading that and adding it to the 300 other guidlines on placing gear hes trying to remember

granted pitons response was strong worded but i think we both know that it wasnt very good advice


In reply to:
Hmmmm. a pissing contest. Let's review the combatants:

piton (from his profile):
In reply to:
Climbing Record
piton has recorded the following ascents
Falled on Account of Strain (5.10b)
Frustration Syndrome (5.10b)
Westward Ha! (5.7)
Criss Cross Direct (5.10a)
Bird Brain (5.11c)
Birdland (5.8)
Try Again (5.10c)
Strictly From Nowhere (5.7)
Son of Easy Overhang (5.8)
Queasy O (5.10a)

j_ung (from his profile):
In reply to:
Climbing Record
j_ung has recorded the following ascents
Traditions (5.11c)
Julia (5.10a)
Block Route (5.8)
Bombay Groove (5.10a)
Yardarm (5.8)
Electric Boobs (5.9)
Toads R Us (5.9)
Sensemelia Sunset (5.9)
Rainy Day Women (5.10a)
Storm in a Tea Cup (5.10a)
Sour Balls / Orange Diehedral (5.11a)
Full Tilt Boogie (5.11d)
Kish Dish (5.8)
Fantastic (5.9)
Fleet Feet (5.10a)
Construction Job (5.9)
Built to Tilt (5.10a)
Fat Lady (5.11b)
Bumblebee Buttress (5.8)
***Dopey Duck (5.9)
Serentripitous (5.7)
***Straight and Narrow (5.10a)
Pick -a-dilly Prow (5.11a)
The Bear (5.7)
Star Trekkin (5.10a)
Dinkus Dog (5.10b)
Southern Boys Don't Wear Plaid (5.11b)
The Daddy (5.7)
Mercury's Lead (5.9)
Flappin in the Breeze (5.10a)
Fine Line (5.10c)
Breakfast of Champions (5.10d)
Dryvin & Cryin (5.10a)
Shredded Wheat (5.11a)
Comatose (5.8)
The Pulpit (5.8)
Electra (5.10d)
Rage Rage Against the Dying of the Drill (5.11d)
Energy Czar (current) (5.10c)
Whiskey for Breakfast (5.10d)
Great White Way (5.9)
B-52 (5.10a)
Eros (5.10d)
Winged Mongrel (5.10a)
Lost in Space (5.10a)
Granola (5.8)
***Maginot Line (5.7)
Safari Jive (5.11c)
Cornflake Crack (5.11a)
Eye Sockets (5.10b)
Hyperbola (5.10a)
Sensemelia Sunset (5.9)
The Mummy (5.6)
Cracker Jack (5.8)
First Return (5.8)
Gemini Cracks (5.8)
Right Up (5.9)
Caught Up In The Air (5.10c)
Cedar Pie (5.10c)
Le Menstrel Cramps (5.11a)
Miracle Whip (5.11a)
OH! Mr. friction (5.5)
Wyoming Dick (5.10a)
Toads R Us (5.9)
The Seal (5.10a)
Unfinished Concerto (5.9)
Bloody Crack (5.8)
Rat's Ass (5.8)
The Nose (5.8)
Pereguine (5.9)
Sundial crack (5.8)
Fat Dog (5.7)
Second Coming (5.7)
Good Intentions (5.6)
Left Up (5.7)


Partner j_ung


Apr 2, 2004, 12:53 PM
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I don't want to say never, but if only a fraction of your placements need tooling, I think you're doing pretty well. I think rock type also plays a role. Aluminum chocks in soft stone may be harder to clean.

If I have to constantly (ahem) whip out my tool, I say something to my partner. I expect him or her to do the same. However, I also try to be as understanding as possible of the situation. If I wasn't leading, I generally won't press the issue; just mention it.

PS - Again, I apologize for the previous momentary thread hijacking. I hope we're back on course.


shakylegs


Apr 2, 2004, 12:53 PM
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Jeez, I better go and add a whole bunch of routes to my database so that I'm not considered a noob. I didn't know that points were given for providing self-congratulatory, unverifiable information. Hey, who knew that I became a 5.12 trad leader, and all with a simple click of the mouse?

ETA: not to attack anyone personally. I just didn't know we were being judged.


Partner j_ung


Apr 2, 2004, 1:12 PM
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In reply to:
Jeez, I better go and add a whole bunch of routes to my database so that I'm not considered a noob. I didn't know that points were given for providing self-congratulatory, unverifiable information. Hey, who knew that I became a 5.12 trad leader, and all with a simple click of the mouse?

ETA: not to attack anyone personally. I just didn't know we were being judged.

We're not, at least not be anybody who matters. I wish this had never entered into a legitimately good thread. Right now, piton and I are discussing those things that are inappropriate to this thread in private. I urge you all to do the same.


madmax


Apr 2, 2004, 1:47 PM
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In reply to:
I listed all the routes shown under your profile, which should be all routes you have ticked in the RDB.

At first I bothered with listing routes I've sent, but then it became apparent that listing the routes you've sent is silly ego-puffing. "Oh my god, you've done such and such? Wow, you are so cool?" Not!, ya loosers.


madmax


Apr 2, 2004, 1:55 PM
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Trad Advice? (1) Once you know how to place gear, learn to place less of it; (2) don't be afraid to get on hard climbs and get your ass kicked; and (3) drive long distances to high quality climbing areas, even if it is only for a weekend.


Partner j_ung


Apr 2, 2004, 1:57 PM
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It's also so you can PM people to pick their brains for beta, if you want to. :)

Here's a trad rule:
Don't waste energy placing gear that won't hold you anyway. :o

Here's another:
If you have to make a pro-or-go decision, make it quickly or it gets made for you. :shock:


Partner j_ung


Apr 2, 2004, 1:59 PM
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In reply to:
Trad Advice? (1) Once you know how to place gear, learn to place less of it; (2) don't be afraid to get on hard climbs and get your ass kicked; and (3) drive long distances to high quality climbing areas, even if it is only for a weekend.

Good advice! How about this gem: Empty your bowels before you tie in.


Partner rrrADAM


Apr 2, 2004, 2:03 PM
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Really, the ascents serve to show who has done what, so a climber considering a route can ask a person who climbed it for specific beta if they want to. I have gotten several PMs from users who want to climb such and such route, and want to know about descent, rope length, or gear beta.

The lists I provided for the "combatants" was meant as a joke, as they were calling eachother gumbies basically. Sorry sarcasm isn't easy to spot in text on the net, hence the smilies I like to use.

I also know that 'piton' has climbed much, as I am sharing PMs with him also.


And lastly... I'll fall on a bomber "shallow" piece just as I will fall on a bomber "deep" piece, but I know which I'd prefer to clean... My point was that you should place the gear with the 2nd in mind, as many times climbers place it deep just because they think it's better, it is not. Fair enough statement ???
:wink:

My bad for not saying "place bomber pro", but I thought that a given. Does anyone honestly think that placing shalow gear is a problem ??? :?



Breathe in, breathe out... Relax... Why do people get so emotional and serious and get into pissing matches and hair splitting ??? Someone should do a parody of "When Worlds Colide" and call it "When egos colide". It could have passages like, "...your onsight doesn't count, since you read the guidebook, and it said the route took gear up to 3"..." :lol:


madmax


Apr 2, 2004, 2:04 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Trad Advice? (1) Once you know how to place gear, learn to place less of it; (2) don't be afraid to get on hard climbs and get your ass kicked; and (3) drive long distances to high quality climbing areas, even if it is only for a weekend.

Good advice! How about this gem: Empty your bowels before you tie in.

Ahh, yes, a very good piece of advice.


pk


Apr 2, 2004, 2:08 PM
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One of the most important issues I have been faced with when climbing harder trad routes which have some dicy placement is the importance of your BELAYER!

When climbing above smaller pieces and or dicey gear it is your belayer that is going to keep that piece from ripping out with a softer catch not always your bomber placements. When pushing trad the most important advice I can give is the find a compitant belayer that knows many many ways to catch you, keep you off a ledge/ground etc etc.

It's not all the leaders shoulders to keep him alive. It's all on the Belayers shoulders when the fall occurs, we all know that each and ever piece we place is not always bomber and a good belayer that will notice what gear you are placing and be attentive enough to note that if you fall a meter or 2 above the piece it'll probably hold any farther than that and it's going to need a bit of a softer touch to keep it from ripping on smaller dicier placements.

just my 2 cents as the most important aspect of trad that I see in my own mind.

P.K.


Partner j_ung


Apr 2, 2004, 2:19 PM
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In reply to:
One of the most important issues I have been faced with when climbing harder trad routes which have some dicy placement is the importance of your BELAYER!

True that. I don't know how many times I've passed up a route or yelled take because I just didn't have that innate trust in my belayer. I think we all know what I'm talkin' 'bout. You either trust 'em or you don't and no amount of conscious thought can change it. That true trust can only be created over the long haul.

If the trad is rad, then my belayer is one of only a few people. I can count them on two hands.


shakylegs


Apr 2, 2004, 2:27 PM
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Gonna disagree with rrrAdam again (sorry fella, it's not intentional);
Save time and gear. Your first piece doesn't have to be either multidirectional nor a cam. Tell your belayer to stand under your first piece (tie them in close, if necessary). Voilà, you've reduced the outward pull on your first to practically nothing.
Granted, this is for first pitches, on less than overhanging climbs.


Partner rrrADAM


Apr 2, 2004, 2:29 PM
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Me even less than two hands for those I truely trust...

My wife is one, as she seems to know if I'm gonna fall before I even do, and she tells me so, just not when I'm on the sharp end. She's caught both 40+ footers, where others have shortroped me enough to have me swing under a roof and get scraped all to hell.

A good attentive belayer skilled at dynamic belays is worth their weight in cams.


pk


Apr 2, 2004, 2:37 PM
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In reply to:
If the trad is rad, then my belayer is one of only a few people. I can count them on two hands.

Lucky man! I can count 2 that I could trust without question.

P.K.


Partner rrrADAM


Apr 2, 2004, 4:01 PM
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In reply to:
Gonna disagree with rrrAdam again (sorry fella, it's not intentional);
Save time and gear. Your first piece doesn't have to be either multidirectional nor a cam. Tell your belayer to stand under your first piece (tie them in close, if necessary). Voilà, you've reduced the SPAM Link pull on your first to practically nothing.
Granted, this is for first pitches, on less than overhanging climbs.

:lol: How often can the belayer stand directly under the piece ??? Do as you wish, after zippering a few lower pieces when you fall, you will change your mind... I did, as I have to forcve myself to place a cam, as i said >90% of my placements are stoppers.

No worries though, as it appears you disagree with me every chance you get, and they're your pieces. :wink:


mreardon


Apr 2, 2004, 5:03 PM
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Deep does not mean secure. Most times it's just the opposite.

1. You can't check the lobes of the cams if they're deep and out of sight. You're likely that same lunkhead who places the cam WAAAAAY above your head too.

2. Your partner can't get to the trigger if the cam is too far back. Sure the partner is on a TR, but if I can't reach it, then your gear is staying behind. It's not my dime, and since you are that selfish that I can only worry about your gear and not my own safety and doing the climb clean and enjoyably, I don't need to climb with you.

3. If you don't protect the second on traverses and that person swings off and gets hurt, you deserve an ass-beating. I have no problem providing that to anyone who risks my life needlessly.

4. Stuck gear slows down the climb. I've done my fair share of pitches in a day, and the only things that slow it down are stuck gear and bad rope management. The only partners I have are the ones that pay attention and do their best to prevent these things.

My cleanest most expensive piece of booty was found on the crux pitch of the Vampire (5 pitches, 11a). A perfectly clean, DEEP in the crack #3 cam.


bsignorelli


Apr 2, 2004, 6:32 PM
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In reply to:
drive long distances to high quality climbing areas, even if it is only for a weekend.

Hell yeah...I've had a string of peeps keffeling out on my recently because they think 6-8 hours is too far to drive for a 2-3 day weekend.

Arkansas has some great stuff but there is mucho better outside of these borders and I wish people would be more open minded about travelling.

Bryan


danskiz


Apr 2, 2004, 7:15 PM
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In four pages I can't believe nobody has said this yet(also applies to sport). ALWAYS be aware of where the rope is in relation to your feet, that is unless you like to fall head first! This is one of the biggest things I see people not paying attention to, and it seems to get worse when their gripped, and possibly about to fall.


Partner iclimbtoo


Apr 2, 2004, 8:23 PM
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I'm from Iowa, so I'm all about the long hauls for the weekends to hit decent trad places. One piece of advice that I guess I would give (that my partner would totally disagree on) is that if I am sketched out about placing a piece, or can't find a good placement, and can climb higher for a bomber placement, I'll do it. He is a stickler about placing pieces to keep falls short, but then he's not doing the leading either. If I'm leading, I place the gear so I can safely climb the route. Sometimes that means compromising a longer fall for a more solid rather than questionable placement.

As for deep to shallow placements, I just go with what I feel comfortable with. If it's shallow but I feel solid about it, then I'll go with it. Sometimes I need to place it deeper to feel okay about the placement. As long as the piece is directional and won't cause drag (sometimes an extended sling is needed...metolius cams are great with that aspect) then shallow or deep works for me.

As for the lists of peoples' climbs...I've been climbing for 8 or 9 years now? If the ticks I have on this site are supposed to be an accurate depiction of what I've climbed...well then I don't think I can consider myself a climber, and if I do, I'm a pathetic one at that!


maldaly


Apr 2, 2004, 8:35 PM
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And you'll know you’re a trad climber when…
all your draws are 12” long • your kid climbs harder than you do • you’ve worn out a set of cams • there is scar tissue on the back of your hands • you shave the back of your hands • you have six partially used rolls of tape in your pack • you quit sport climbing because you can’t do any of the routes • you see lots of sunrises on your climbing trips • you say, “what?” when your leader says, “take!” • your ledge is set up in your room to hold all your climbing gear • you have climbing shoes you can wear all day • you don’t care when your gym membership expires • you enjoy guilt-free eating • you don’t know what your body-fat % is • you ask your partner how much water to bring along • you do a first ascent and report the names of both members in your party • you drop your belay device and you still know how to belay • you read back-issues or mountain gazette • you know how to turn a crack ‘n up into a beak • you know what a beak is • you wake up at 2:00am to go climbing • your drill uses a hammer • you take a nap in the middle of a climb • you spend three hours removing a fixed cam • you don’t want beta • you think a bong is a type of piton • you remember when climbing gear didn’t have springs • you take a forty footer • you summit a desert tower • you know what an abalakov hook is • you still use a gear sling • there is a holster on your harness • you rappel six pitches in the dark • you rappel six pitches in the snow • you drill from a stance • you’re looking down at the birds • you own a hammer and a haul bag • you have sex on a belay ledge • you’re on day 2 of a sport climbing trip and you can’t remember what you did on day 1 • you drop your water bottle and it takes five seconds to hit • your rack is worth more than your car • your best memories are from the epics you’ve had • you have a great day of climbing then find out you didn’t do the route you thought you did • you spend a night hanging in slings • you miss work on monday because you epic’d on sunday • a whole block of chalk fits in your chalk bag • you dump your S.O. because he just doesn’t get it • you wear out a set of jugs • you drive all night so you can climb all day • you drive all night because you climbed all day • you’re up so high the trees look like broccoli • your rack of pins is heavier than your rack of draws • your slings have knots in them • you know who larry penberthy is • you know the difference between a copperhead and a circlehead • you think “beta” is a video tape format • you can shit and and belay at the same time • you wear socks in your climbing shoes • a long approach doesn’t deter you from a good climb • a good job doesn’t deter you from a good climb • Hendrix runs through your head while you’re climbing • you coil your rope • you’ve set up a belay with the only piece of gear left on your rack • your climbing pants don’t stretch •

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